/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>762677

Have a baby child and look into its eye looking back at you and you will see God.

>>762680

God bless you

>>762677

Read Edward Feser's The Last Superstition.

>>762680

May I ask if you got the response and counter response to the five arguments image? It was a good show on how to rebuke basic atheistic counterpoints.

>>762677

https://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles.htm

>Book One: God

Should help

>>762677

prove to me that the logic you assume and use is well grounded metaphysically, and "ought" to be followed. Why should we "be" logical and prove things logically? Where does the epistemic force come from, what's wrong with being illogical? if God doesn't exist what's wrong with being an absurdist and holding contradictory views?

>>762710

natural theology is not legit, read Van Til, Plantinga and so forth. Natural theology is very weak and paved the way to atheism, even as a teen I found holes in those arguments that I later discovered were serious holes big brain philosophers also pointed out.

They might've worked a long time ago when people didn't question their basic presuppositions but now they are far less convincing. Also the idea that you can reason UP to god from viewing creatures/natural order is ridiculous if you think about it, you're privileging your senses and mental faculties above God, like you're more certain about logic and nature and animals than the existence of God…that's not how Christianity works. You should start with the Christian God first, it's a basic belief, a presupposition, and then you can build your logic,ethics and natural design explanations afterwards. Don't do it backwards, don't start with matter and try to reason up to God, that's bizarre and demeaning to God.

>>762722

What holes?

>>762730

they don't prove the one true God of the bible exists, the God of christianity, they suggest some nebulous little 'g' god thing exists, or could be the platonic monad or could be a bunch of unmoved movers, or Satan, or Allah, or the demiurge…that type of argumentation leads to perennialism and deism and eventually atheism.

You can't reason from finite things into the actual personal trinitarian God, at best you will get some impersonal deism "force". Your starting point should be Christological/Trinitarian, the God of Abraham.

Watch this video.

>>762732

>one true God of the bible exists

That's because the ability to believe in God is an act of faith, of which no reason can ever reach on its own, since faith is the gift of God. Reason alone can come close, but cannot reach the true image. Your stating to start with God as the basic presupposition is not a proof to anyone else, because you assume at the outset the entire conclusion, even though the assumption is entirely correct and truthful.

>>762744

> Your stating to start with God as the basic presupposition is not a proof to anyone else

The way to convince them is to show how any other worldview is incoherent and collapses on itself, or that only this view accounts for all the other "categories" we are allowed to presuppose. I don't see natural theology arguments convincing anyone who is actually trying to refute them, they'll only convince people who are already open to the idea and need a little nudge, but even then they only support some general vague "theism" not the God of the bible himself.

>>762680

>motion means change

No, motion means motion. Movement is a change in motion. You can't define motion as change because then movement is a change in change, which isn't true. That could be the "rate of change" which isn't motion either. That's a derivative, from what I recall.

>change means conversion from potential to actual

No, change means something was any way and then later was any other way. Potential is a meme, a spook, etc. There is no logical evidence that physical things were once merely conceptual (which is what this asserts).

Since everything follows from those premises and those definitions are illogical I don't need to spend the fourteen hours to parse those poorly presented slides.

>The shroud of turin is a real holy artifact

Nothing in this image proves anything about divinity, very weak. Not very strong proof of authenticity anyhow, but assuming it's 100% real there's nothing showing it's godblood and even if it did show that (which I remind you, it doesn't) that would still not invalidate other kinds of divinity. So that's extremely unconvincing.

>>762681

>look at a thing, it's beautiful, boom. God.

Hey man, look at the world and you will see the absence of God. Neither statement is convincing.

>>762714

>read all this shit

What part of "prove to me" do you not understand? He didn't say "what monastery should I join to understand" he said "convince me". "Read a book" is not an argument and if you can't summarize it to AT LEAST the size of these horrifically bloated info-graphs that other posters have, maybe it's not so convincing. Maybe it's a convoluted mess that serves to obfuscate things and muddy the waters more than clarify things and make it clear you're right. Not that I wouldn't levy that charge against these other things.

>inb4 but it's so complicated you can really only understand if study for eight decades so you're a brainlet!

That would just imply you are incapable of proving anything logically. Which was for what was asked.

>>762722

>prove to me you even deserve an answer! Heh!

No. If you don't think people deserve a logical answer, fine, but that's what he wants.

>>762739

>there is a distinction to be drawn between its essence and its existence

Essence is not quantifiable. It is Illogical and Platonic.

>Change is a real feature of the world

Change is a spook, it's a concept, it isn't a real feature of anything.

Spooky illogical premises do not a convincing logical argument make.

>>762746

The Ethiopians don’t have it. I don’t know why Lebbittors are so obsessed with the idea.

>>762747

>some general vague "theism" not the God of the bible himself.

The point is to provide a logical basis for those who do not believe to make the leap of faith. Reason alone cannot prove the resurrection, but it can provide a sound basis for someone otherwise hesitant to say "maybe there really is something there to consider".

>>762748

>What part of "prove to me" do you not understand? He didn't say "what monastery should I join to understand" he said "convince me". "Read a book" is not an argument and if you can't summarize it to AT LEAST the size of these horrifically bloated info-graphs that other posters have, maybe it's not so convincing

It literally includes St. Aquinas' five ways, one of which was made into that infograph you are discussing. In it he lays out the way, the objections, objections to the objections and so on in great depth. If you want the proof go ahead and read it.

>No, motion means motion.

Not in Aristotle's metaphysics.

> movement is a change in change, which isn't true

If you mix Aristotles metaphysics with the physical sciences, which is obviously a mistake, the same as taking technical terminology in any field and replacing it in part with the terminology of another, different field. Of course you will get an absurd result, because you did an absurd thing.

>There is no logical evidence that physical things were once merely conceptual

Strictly speaking that is exactly what all physical things were. They were merely things that could exist, but did not yet exist. From this they were moved to being what they are, and will be moved again to become what they will be and so on. Even a primitive notion of this should suffice, since the words you and I are typing were merely potentially existing until we actually thought and typed them.

>Essence is not quantifiable. It is Illogical and Platonic.

I don't believe you have thought this statement through. Firstly, to say something is not quantifiable is not a proof it is illogical, only that your method was not up to the task. It would be like asking to look at a distant star with a microscope, seeing the microscope can't, and then concluding the distant star must not exist. Secondly, to say a thing has no essence is to say that a thing is not even a thing. A pencil is not a pencil, a person is not a person, you are not you. These things, pencil, person, you, do not even exist. Even the modern scientists who reject by and large any useful philosophy do not go this far, they only argue essence lies in other areas that they believe they can measure. For example, consciousness is thought by many today to be the essence of a person instead of the soul being the essence of a person.

>>762732

That is not a failure of natural theology.

>>762748

You should refrain from attempting to form arguments.

>>762748

> If you don't think people deserve a logical answer, fine, but that's what he wants.

The better point he should realize and be convinced of is that logic needs to be grounded in the transcendent reality of the personal God.

It's like how atheists want to argue morality without having a grounding for their ethics, why would I give them such a free-gift and let them simply "assume" some sort of morality that is disjointed and divorced of the transcendent personal God? I find it much more convincing to show how their presuppositions require the basic belief in God to even get off the ground and ask for "proofs" and ask for "morals".

You are giving them these things for free and arguing within their worldview that just presupposes logic and ethics and other categories can be disconnected from God, and then they'll find holes in your natural theology and will ultimately get them nowhere.

It is clear by now that by "logi" you mean "materialistic".

Your poor attempts to reduce reality to what you, a petty creature, can quantify, are laughable.

>>762748

>Hey man, look at the world and you will see the absence of God. Neither statement is convincing.

t. never had a child

I don't even know why threads like this are allowed on this board when they're just shitposts and the OP doesn't even want to be convinced.

prove to me logically that logic is valid

>>763060

I think it's out of charity. I get it, but it defeats the point. If people wish to learn, they need to put in a bit of effort themselves. Every day there are really stupid threads that, if the OP just searched via Google, would not need to exist. The same goes for "What does this passage mean?" threads when there are hundreds of sites from every denomination specialising in exegesis.

Were I a mod such threads would be contained in a single recycling thread, or not allowed outright.

Sage for off-topic.

>>763077

if i were mod, i would ban you for being an aitsistuc

I could make you a gigantic text on the subject, but as I know that tomorrow you are going to create this same thread again, I am going to summarize everything.

First, a universe without God is such an improbable and unpredictable universe that you have to have more blind faith in science than in a divine being to believe that life could come out of it.

Second, anthropologically, the human being has always felt an innate need for a personal superior force that only the Christian God can satisfy.

>>762732

>UP to god from viewing creatures/natural order is ridiculous if you think about it, you're privileging your senses and mental faculties above God,

Isn't God immanent in the World?

>like you're more certain about logic and nature and animals than the existence of God

remember we're fallen creatures, if proof for God can be derived from these things then one becomes equally certain:

>For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Romans 1:20

>they don't prove the one true God of the bible exists

There is only one God

>that type of argumentation leads to perennialism and deism and eventually atheism. how? even so sounds dangerously close to slippery slope fallacy

>You can't reason from finite things into the actual personal trinitarian God

yes trinitarianism is part of revelation, natural theology doesn't claim to prove trinitarianism apart from revelation.

>2hr video

mkay

>>763175

All evidence points to the contrary

>>763175

>desert demon

are you that vietnamese pagan again?

>>763175

>Why do christians always disgustingly share their relationship with Plato, Aristotle and the greeks?

>

>They might believe in the logic that a Creator god is necessity for intelligent evolution, this doesn't mean that said Creator god is the desert demon you worship.

Only Catholics and some Protestants do that. Orthodox long ago pointed out an argument of God via philosophy or principles won't be the same God as that of revelation. It's a generic God, and anyone could identify with it. That's not what Christianity teaches.

Also, this same silly people blame the Orthodox for being "Platonic", when it's the actual Orthodox who literally call Anthemas in their church on Plato and his adherents. Some may be Greek, but they abandoned that thousands of years ago.

>>763179

Through out scripture

>>763183

Have fun with your

>opinion

>>763186

>literally opinions

>documentations are opinions

Right.

>>763189

>3rd party account of the oldest biblical texts

You realize if there used to be any "3rd party accounts" back then, they would of been added to the canon of the Bible?

>>763192

Are those depictions of Genesis?

Those where considered mythologies even by the people of their day.

You don't know what you're talking about.

>Prove to me, logically, that the Christian God is real and the only God there is.

Can’t. Salvation is by faith.

>>763196

You're right, Aristotle believed in a rudimentary concept of the One creator God.

>>763199

Yes, and his pure logic points at a creator just like YHWH.

>>762748

Like pearls before swine

>>763180

>argument of God via philosophy or principles won't be the same God as that of revelation.

There is only 1 God, of course its divorced from revelation but its still the same God.

>>763203

YHWH is depicted as the creator God through out the Old and New Testament.

>>763207

If you believe in the Greek mythology then you disagree with Aristotle.

YHWH is the only God.

>>763207

>the Old and New Testament aren't evidence

Again this is your opinion.

The Bible is perfect evidence of Faith In a creator God.

>>763217

I can not continue our conversation any longer, forgive me.

>>763204

A million completely different people could say they believe in one God.. but the only one who matters is God himself. He gets to say who he is. Not our naval gazing or probing him with the blunt, feeble instruments of our minds (science, philosophy, etc). Only God gets to say who he is.

And when he first had a chance to state his case and get into specifics, what did he say? "I am the God of the your fathers. The God Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." The important thing to gather from this is God is focused on relationships and covenants/agreements. Not abstract ways of knowing him.. but PERSONAL ones. On noting who and where he has "gone under contract" with among humanity. And he never extended that contract, except through his Son.

Revelation and covenants. This is the God of Christianity. You can argue to the four corners of the Earth with clever scientific or Anselmian/Platonic/Aristolelian arguments, but we'll never bring people closer to God without the contract in hand! And if outsiders have a desore to know him, Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me." That's it. End of story. If people don't want to believe it, that's sadly their own problem.

>>762746

They tried that once and fire came from the earth they were building upon. The 3rd temple was Christ and if God saw it fitting to prevent their blasphemy in the early years proceeding Christ's Ascension I would hope He would do it again in equally spectacular fashion today.

>>763221

Evidence is before your eyes. I cannot help you any further on the direction you wish to head, be it away from God or closer to him in either heading you will travel this path alone. I implore you to not give up on your pursuit of God.

I will pray for you my lost friend.

>>763222

Just to add to this, when Paul came to the Greeks and saw their idols sprawled out everywhere, he only marveled at one. "To the Unknown God".

And he only preached the Gospel through that one unknown God. He didn't say say, "Hey, you have these aspects of Apollo, Zeus, Aphropodite.. you've all got a "little bit of the truth". Now let me explain."

No, he said the only good thing about them was acknowledging the Unknown God.. and that they didn't know anything.

>>763227

Of course I do. You seek the one true God, even if you're being a hostile person your heart is set on the truth that God exists. Even if the veil of stone is covering your heart, you attempt to break free. Revelations be upon you one day my friend, and you'll feel an earthquake in your soul that'll break you free.

>>763222

A million completely different people could say they believe in one God.. but the only one who matters is God himself. He gets to say who he is.

agreed

Revelation and covenants. This is the God of Christianity. You can argue to the four corners of the Earth with clever scientific or Anselmian/Platonic/Aristolelian arguments, but we'll never bring people closer to God without the contract in hand! And if outsiders have a desore to know him, Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me." That's it. End of story. If people don't want to believe it, that's sadly their own problem.

It will bring them closer but they will still have to take a leap of faith to accept revelation, no one has said otherwise.

>>763228

>And who's to say Paul is right?

We say it. Because Christ says it.

I care nothing to debate this though. Our gospel merely said to kick the dust off of our feet if people reject it. Not sit around and plead with you.

>>763231

You're looking for the Creator God, as you try to wound my heart and my faith, you do nothing but scar your own. I promise you God is ever forgiving, but we our selves continue to feel regret for our actions.

>>762681

thats not what logic is u fukcwit

>>763237

So you think the Creator God isn't a loving God?

>>763239

Ah. So how was Love created?

>>763241

So you believe in an entire pantheon of Greek Gods? Aren't you from Vietnam?

>>763243

You believe in Greek mythology, because as a kid you read books about Hercules and Zeus?

That's kinda odd man.

Do you believe in the idea of sin?

>>763246

Are why do you think we shouldn't do bad things? Do you believe is a punishment for sinning?

>>763248

How so? Even if we never get caught for said crime? How would we feel the affects?

>>763243

>Vietnam used to be a french colony, and I read a lot about greek mythology when I was little.

I'm part Thai myself. God is bigger than any of our cultures (my other side is Danish.. I don't see it any better). And God is not preferring Jews either. It has nothing to do with that. It's about covenants. If they were so important, they'd still be under agreement.. but they literally called curses on themslves when Christ was crucified. "His blood be on us and on our children". Until they repent, they'll be in the company of the real demons (not the silly ones being mentioned in this thread).

God calls us out of the world and says "Amen, amen I say to you, you must be born from above."

"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’ " John 3:3, 5-7

And don't listen to larping /pol/ tards here either who think race still matters if you're a Christian. The King of the universe isn't subject to your petty crap. We're called to something bigger than we can imagine.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." -1 Peter 2:9

>>763252

So do you have a bad conscious on how you've treat me? Calling me profanities? Being hateful?

>>763252

>I'm sad that you got tricked by jews, but my whole point is that logic dictates a Creator God, it does not mean the Creator God is the god of the jews, nor there's only one god.

I've seen the heavens opened up. I assure you, I'll be just fine. I'm the least of Christians, because I never truly found this by faith as some do. "Blessed is he who hasn't seen, but believes."

I know you won't believe that.. and I've never found a reason to bother with anyone to convince them. The minute I told even people I love, I was put in a mental hospital. hah. But over 20 years later, I'm just as determined. You can go on believing your god of "logical dictates", but when you're ready to actually meet God, just know that someone pointed you to a roadsign.

>>763254

I don't think calling another anon profanities is a thing of honesty, certainly not goodness.

Do you believe your religion is the only correct religion?

>>763258

>I respect the ancestral religions of other nations.

You have been showing us the contrary this entire thread.

>>763260

>Unless you are winnie the pooh jews, Christianity is not your ancestral religion.

Christianity was proclaimed for all people, and that was the one of the biggest points of the Gospels.

Also, you're a Vietnamese that worships greek Gods.

>>763263

>Irrelevant, it is not your ancestral religion.

But it is tho, Christianity has been in Germany since 300 a.d

>My actual religion is worshipping Guan Yu of the Romance of the 3 kingdoms, but I DO like the greek gods, certainly Athena.

So you don't actually believe in the Greek mythology? And you also don't believe in Kaos then?

>>763265

But you worship a man dated to the year 220? Why aren't you worshipping the deities that came before him?

I'm also British and the religion came to Britain before the year 100. Which is a clear line of my ancestors.

>>763268

>Because that man is deemed worthy of worshipping, his age has nothing to do with it. We do not worship any random ass old person

Do you think Jesus is a random person?

>Nope, your ancestors before that worship the brythonnic gods

Christianity has been in Britian since at least 50 ad, I don't know how you could deny this.

>>763269

>older than Jesus, died 220 ad

Do you know how time works?

>>763273

>Jesus is a weak ass jew not worthy of worshiping, he's worse than a random person.

You just told me you were respectful of all traditions? Why do you lie?

>I don't need to, since brythonnic religion/celtic gods exist before "50 ad".

Can people not convert? Can you also prove everyone worshipped those Gods?

>>763275

>can you prove that the people who didn't worship the celtic gods worshipped Christ, before 50 ad?

It's actually on you to provide evidence that all people of ancient Britain followed those gods.

You also ignored my question, can people not convert?

>>763268

Why would anyone a bunch of theologically laughable promiscuous stories about a bunch of deified men instead of actually worshipping God? Does your little man even understand what being God means? It surely exvludes your glorified men, who are created through sex, usually in incestuous or zoophile ways, with no mystery, nor wisdom, nor decency, just hedonistic monsters created from men. Philosophers and politicians were even deified as gods or semigods.

Why do you defend something you dont believe in? We both know you are just a LARPing atheist trying to rebel against Christianity.

>>763298

>Yes they can, but they also lose my respect that way.

Who cares about your respect lmao

>>763308

My God is the only one there is. And by definition God is universal, not just an aesthetic custom of some place. Yours are glorified men, including pshilosophers and governors that had their own temples. It is no surprise that they are licentious degenerates as the followers that glorified them, having sex with their own children and animals to then have children that they would eat alive in the best case. You really shouldnt talk about "models for society" when refering to, for example, Zeus, a licentious, incestuous adulterer. And the list is endless, the "gods" who are neither creators of the world nor timeless nor opnipotent nor anything, constantly show their true nature, that of men who were turned into idols to justify the most disgusting hedonism. They are in no way gods, except for retards for whom the word "god" is usef only for larping purposes as is your case.

If you want I can link you to the writtings in the first centuries, by former pagans who converted and then wrote to convert other pagans.

>>763308

He’s the God of the universe, not the desert.

>>763381

>using logic on a larpagan brainlet

You'd be better off teaching chemistry to a dog.

Has nobody thought to remark on how he's vietnamese, yet worships a Chinese general? For all his whinging about foreign vs. ancestral religions, you'd expect a more consistent position.

>>763381

post them fam

>>763421

Here ypu have some I could quickly collect

Arnobius, pagan convert to Christianity, 7 books against the heathen http://newadvent.org/fathers/0631.htm

Athenagoras, philosopher that converted to Christianity http://newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm

Clement of Alexandria, 12 chapters against the heathen http://newadvent.org/fathers/0208.htm

>>763695

>raping a teenager

He sent an angel to ask for her consent, bruh…

>>763716

Yes, girls mature way faster.

Plus she was kept in a special state by God: unlike Zeus and other deities of the Greco-Roman pantheon, He did not just find her a good looking girl, but He made and kept her in a special way to be one day, in the worlds of Dante, “daughter of your own son”, special vessel and arc of the new covenant.

>>763725

You are a literal hypocrite, Charlie. Quit LARPing and just repent already.

Also, it’s not a bad thing to read and study those pagan mythologies…my very Christian grandmother used to read my siblings and me all about the Nibelung saga, Greek and Roman gods and heroes.

I do believe there’s a spark of God’a light in the works of pagans too; and Chesterton wrote it many times: the Roman world converted even because it already had a basic underestanding of some of the core values of Christianity and its gods were flawed in a human way, which led them toward the God of the Cross.

This is my last reply, because like Herod in here: you’d like to see marvels for the sake of your own entertainment, not to believe.

>>763728

I'm entering this thread for the first time. Do you claim that everyone must return to their ancestral religion? How far back is "ancestral"?

>>762677

I will forgive you for your lowly and despicable troll attempt. I will also forgive you for doing such a poor job of trolling.

Protip: the point of trolling is to try to make the other person angry, not make them laugh like you made me laugh with your absolutely infantile troll attempt.

I certainly hope you're not as much of a failure in your real life as you are at trolling. If you are then I truly do feel sorry for you and will keep you in my prayers.

>>763734

Why Antiquity when there obviously were religious beliefs before Antiquity? Who's to say those aren't cults themselves that found success? You?

"Ancestral religion" means nothing, your ancestors before you believed in a lot of things depending on which ancestor we're talking about, they'll have conflicting beliefs, the vast majority of which isn't even preserved how can you even claim to have the same beliefs then?

Most people here adopted Christianity because it's the truth, not because they wanted to larp.

>>763728

>>763734

>return to your ancestral religion

Every direct ancestor I have on both sides of my family going back as far as records will take me was Christian.

I have no record of any person whom I am genetically related to that was pagan, and neither does any one else. Moreover, the full pagan mythos from my ancestors' homelands has long been lost. There is no way I could convert to that religion even if I wanted to.

>>763745

But why your Antiquity ancestors in particular? Seems awfully specific relying on personal appeal.

You obviously had ancestors before them who had different beliefs and would disagree with your Antiquity era ancestors, so why did you decide to disregard your pre and post Antiquity ancestors in favour of your Antiquity era ancestors?

>>763753

>All gods stem from Nature/Gaia.

You could've just said "I feel good when I'm in the forest, it's like... a spiritual experience duude" and spared us a few paragraphs.

>>763755

Bruh, you're the one denying creation. What is nature anyway according to you? Because I'm sure it has special definition since you think humanity and Gods themselves who you "worship" come from your distorted view of nature.

Nature is God's creation not the other way around.

>>762677

You can't. In the same way you can't fit a square block in a round hole.

>>763758

Alright, tell me in your view, how did trees and rivers create humans.

I can see where you're coming from with a view like that religion is just an extension of a human thought to you, so then it can be broken down to preference and appeal in your view instead of truthfulness which is how you arrive at paganism, since in your view it's at least remotely connected to you.

Now with that said clearly in your view there's no room for any sort of spirituality, then why are you talking about demons, worshipping and Gods when you believe they're all just human inventions?

You don't believe in them then, you're an Atheist who believes in human thought.

>>763763

What are demons according to you and what do you base their existance on?

>>763765

>Greek's myth, the emotions escaped through Pandora's Box

But the Greek myths are hardly anymore man made than Christianity according to you so what makes it anymore true, in fact what makes Greek Paganism anymore true than Briton Pagan myths or Indonesian Pagan myths who have entirely different views on the world, or heck, Zoroastrianism, which comes way before Greek myths, is more well documented, is Paganism but also disagrees with Greeks on pretty much everything?

You also just said the God of Christianity is a demon, and demons are just very evil men.

How and why did Jews invent a very evil man?

There's no definitive proof for almost anything you say, from what I'm reading you just took a bunch of stories that appealed to you and tried to lump them together into a belief system.

>>763765

>demons are very evil men who desire the destruction of the world they live

ebil mans kill muh trees, mass slaughter of the unborn is chill though bc nature mommy is a wamen so i respec wamen

>>763768

Hoo'kay.

>>762677

>>763760

Logic is a tool. You are asking people to rake leaves with an axe; Hold water in a pasta strainer.

>>763766

>But the Greek myths are hardly anymore man made than Christianity according to you so what makes it anymore true,

As religions are based on faith, and with no proof, it cannot be deemed as true, but I believe as true.

>Zoroastrianism, which comes way before Greek myths, is more well documented, is Paganism but also disagrees with Greeks on pretty much everything?

As said, everyone is entitled to their ancestral religions and their belief.

>You also just said the God of Christianity is a demon, and demons are just very evil men.

Demon or daemon are evil spirits! The god of Christianity fits this because it's fire without smoke, no physical form.

>How and why did Jews invent a very evil man?

To control non-jews and unroot them, so that non-jews worship and believe in jewish god.

>There's no definitive proof for almost anything you say,

Again, I do not need to because I'm not here to convince you to return to paganism with proof, all I'm asking is proof that the Christian desert demon is the only god or that it has jackshit to do with Plato/Aristotle (it doesn't).

>>763816

>As religions are based on faith, and with no proof, it cannot be deemed as true, but I believe as true.

How is the documented coming of Christ not proof?

>As said, everyone is entitled to their ancestral religions and their belief.

So what is true then, what makes your view more legitimate, than Christianity or any other religion out there? Do you have any basis for believing it other than personal appeal?

>Demon or daemon are evil spirits! The god of Christianity fits this because it's fire without smoke, no physical form.

So now they're evil spirits, you said yourself a few replies ago that they're quote "very evil men who live among us", and again how did they create it? You don't make any sense.

>To control non-jews and unroot them, so that non-jews worship and believe in jewish god

So is that why Jews themselves were historically persecuted by Christians and are doctrinally opposed to each other? Christianity by it's nature is more anti-Judaism than whatever crackpot religion you came up with.

>Again, I do not need to

Then what is the basis for your belief, fiction and fantasy? Converting people is one thing and obviously that's not the intention.

But you yourself need a solid grounding for your beliefs in order for them to hold any water, and in comparison to Christianity it's miniscule.

"“You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3)."

Bam, is that definitive proof? Certainly not, however it's bullet proof glass in terms of how solid it is when compared to the basis of your beliefs.

>>763823

>How is the documented coming of Christ not proof?

Where is it documented? Where is the proof?

>So what is true then, what makes your view more legitimate, than Christianity or any other religion out there?

Facts backed by proof are true.

>So now they're evil spirits, you said yourself a few replies ago that they're quote "very evil men who live among us", and again how did they create it?

Again, this is what I said:

>In the modern world, they are very evil evil men

And there's nothing to stop evil spirit inside man, none at all.

>So is that why Jews themselves were historically persecuted by Christians and are doctrinally opposed to each other?

No, they aren't. Everywhere jews go, christians follow, or vice versa. They have a parasitical relationship.

>Then what is the basis for your belief, fiction and fantasy?

Faith and mythology, what else do you need?

>But you yourself need a solid grounding for your beliefs in order for them to hold any water, and in comparison to Christianity it's miniscule.

There's no ground for Christianity at all.

>Bam, is that definitive proof? Certainly not, however it's bullet proof glass in terms of how solid it is when compared to the basis of your beliefs.

The winnie the pooh? I can say now there are multiple gods, and the desert demon is a demon, how is that any less solid than your?

>>763827

God keep me from cursing, I'm gonna stop wasting my time with you, throwing pearls before swine is a great fallacy I often repeat and I fear it may have been the case with this """debate""" too, I'm sure someone more patient will pick it up but I'm going.

Will pray for you to abandon this foolishness and come to Christ, take care.

>>763831

Pray for me, bitch, I need your power to exercise the demon you are worshiping.

Zeus saves.

>>763832

Interesting that, when shown kindness by others, your response is to recoil in aggression, just like how dæmons and other evil entities rebel in the sight of holiness.

>>763835

Frankness is goodness.

Kindness offered by fools should be countered by frankness.

>>763838

Wrong. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. If someone is kind to you, be kind back. You continued presence here serves only your own self-centred desire for fun and attention. You are like a child, for a man would have nothing to gain by nipping the heels of strangers.

Should you sincerely wish to study Christianity, for whatever reason, you have the entire internet at your disposal. The same goes for any other spiritual tradition. Your actions, however, and your dismissal of everything said to you in this thread, clearly suggest your motives to be rather illogical and unreasonable, serving no higher purpose than hubris.

>>763841

He saved and he saves. Meanwhile, your jewish god cannot save anything, it seeks destroy.

>>763842

As said, kindness offered by fools should be countered by frankness, which is also goodness.

And I'm trying to help you get rid of the desert demon, my friend.

>>763843

>I don’t like sand

>It’s course, and rough, and it gets everywhere

>>763854

Who are you quoting?

>>763855

Zeus lives immortality in greek mythology.

And he saved people in his era, he saves people in this era and will save in the future.

>Meanwhile God Saves his people from slavery.

>"his people"

>God Saves people from the evils of child murder and sodomy.

Yep, just remember all the egyptian firstborns he saved.

>God Saves his people from the evils of sin and death.

I don't see it. I see evils of sin and death everywhere christians go.

>>762677

Are you aware that you are alive? Yes you are. That Awareness is consistent, to one degree or another, throughout off of what we call life. That being the case, there is only One Awareness fo which we all experience. That One Awareness is the God you seek. This should then make sense to you when you're told, God is within you, heaven is within you, God created you, you were created in the image of God, God knows what you do in darkness…etc. These are all refer to the Awareness you call yourself. Since there is the experience of only one life, this is the only God you know.

WE WUZ VIKANGS AND SPARTANGS AN SHIIIIIET

>>763860

Certainly better than WE WUZ JEWZ

>>763858

Living “in mythology” isn’t life. And you continue to ignore all the points of how immoral the Greek deities are, and how all of them are by definition not eternal since they all have beginnings. Your Zeus if just the Greek version of the Baal/Moloch of the Caananites.

In addition, the initiatory rotes of pagan religions are lost forever with their priestly castes. Those religions are dead, and all you are doing is trying to recreate them by blending together vague similarities and the pets that you like.

>>763862

*parts that you like

>>763862

>Living “in mythology” isn’t life.

They are living in our memory, and the european's blood.

>And you continue to ignore all the points of how immoral the Greek deities are, and how all of them are by definition not eternal since they all have beginnings.

Yet they are immortal as their mythology stated.

>Your Zeus if just the Greek version of the Baal/Moloch of the Caananites.

Blasphemy with no evidence.

>In addition, the initiatory rotes of pagan religions are lost forever with their priestly castes.

We worship the gods, not their priests.

Worship of priests is how we got winnie the pooh Christianity and its Roman Catholic Church.

>>763864

>They are living in our memory

Except they were forgotten. The temples went empty and the last members of the religion died a long time ago. All you're going on is half pieced together records from anthropologists. Even if you act out what you think is worship, you will never be initiated, because the entire religion doesn't exist anymore. There's nothing to be initiated to. How do you even know that ancient ancestors even halfway approve of your actions? They could see you as an utter disgrace for all you know. You don't have a memory of them because you and no one else alive knew them.

>and in the european's blood

Means literally nothing at all

>they are immortal as their mythology stated.

Their mythology is just assorted records and archaeological finds. It isn't their religion. Imagine if absolutely every single person who knew how to blacksmith died, and all we had left of the skill of smithing was old websites and books on the topic. All knowledge on it is fragmented. Imagine I read through a lot of it and built a forge and got an anvil and started smithing according to what I could find. Does that make me a blacksmith? How could someone like that be even compared to someone who was taught by someone who actually understands the topic fully? A "teacher" is critical. "Initiation" is critical.

>We worship the gods, not their priests.

Your personal idea of the gods*

>>763865

>Except they were forgotten. The temples went empty and the last members of the religion died a long time ago.

Never ever have the european forgotten their classical gods, since unlike the Christian gods, the classical gods shape their thought and logic and even vocabulary.

>How do you even know that ancient ancestors even halfway approve of your actions? They could see you as an utter disgrace for all you know. You don't have a memory of them because you and no one else alive knew them.

I trust myself and the blood that worship my ancestral gods.

>Means literally nothing at all

Race denier.

>Their mythology is just assorted records and archaeological finds. It isn't their religion.

Their mythology teaches of their deeds, their days of worship, their animals to be sacrificed and their dominions, that's more than enough for a religion.

>Does that make me a blacksmith? How could someone like that be even compared to someone who was taught by someone who actually understands the topic fully?

Again, actual reconstructed art exist. If the art of smithing is lost, we can reconstruct it via existing material and recorded history.

>Your personal idea of the gods*

When I talk about Zeus, you have the same idea of who Zeus is.

>>763866

Blah blah blah.

Plato agreed that there is a creator god. He called it the demiurge.

Do you christians agree with him? Yes or no?

inb4 let's burn plato while calling ourselves neo-platonists

>>763869

Man please, stop larping about things you know nothing about. At this point Im starting to think this is satire.

>>763871

Blah blah blah.

>>762677

>Prove to me, logically, that the Christian God is real and the only God there is.

I cant say for certain that the christian god is the only real god, but hes obviously the most powerful at making his followers succeed and prosper. When you look at the fact that all the most successful countries are Christian.

Its possible that the other gods exist and they are just weaker than the christian god or dont care about their worshipers in the same way.

>>763872

In what way did I say any satire?

>>763877

The most successful countries are european and asian.

It has jack to do with Christianity.

Japan has being anti-christian for as long as it exists, still the one of the dominant power of Asia.

Praise Hachiman.

>Celsus listed many reasons for how his Roman readers could easily deduce that Christianity was endangering their unity and the stability of the Empire. Christianity originated from Judaism, whose adherents, although living within the Empire, had already revolted against Roman rule several times. The Christian community then became further divided amongst themselves, and Celsus complained that “matters are determined in different ways by the various sects”.[18] This dissension between different factions within Christianity proved to the Romans that Christians who could not even draw together under their own shared beliefs were naturally a divisive people and not only caused friction within their own philosophy but would disrupt the unity of the Empire. Finally Celsus and other Roman writers believed that “Christians are dangerous precisely because they put the advancement of their beliefs above the common good and the welfare of the state”.[19]

>The secrecy in which Christians met and practiced was another problem for Celsus. He commented that they “entered into secret associations with each other contrary to law”.[20] Celsus stated that there was nothing wrong with swearing allegiance to a king or emperor, as he provided the stable environment in which all citizens could freely live, and in return it was the duty of each Roman citizen to assist the Emperor and “labor with him in the maintenance of justice”.[21]

>Celsus provided only one solution to solve the problems that he believed Christianity would inevitably create within the Empire. He commanded that Christians must both respect the Emperor and perform rituals to the gods of the Roman state. If they could not or would not participate in the Imperial religion they must not “take any share in the affairs of life; but… depart hence with all speed and leave no posterity behind them”.[22]

The Christian problem has been solved since it was created.

Too bad the world didn't heed Celsus.

>>763869

>Never ever have the european forgotten their classical gods, since unlike the Christian gods, the classical gods shape their thought and logic and even vocabulary.

What

>>763880

I would definitely say that the Japanese emperor god is the second most likely god to exist.

And then way down on the scale would be islam or those african tribal religions. If their god exists he certainly doesnt care to help the plight of his supporters.

>>763884

Narcissus.

>>763885

Japanese emperor god definitely existed, and he certainly was man who was deitified.

>>763886

>Japanese emperor god definitely existed, and he certainly was man who was deitified.

And he used his supernatural powers to make Japan a very successful country. In the same way as the Christian god did.

>>763880

It is like a blatant exageration of the most theologically clueless larpagans, who have no idea of what paganism is, who dont follow any of the old rites and sacrifices of your dead deified men, and whose "conversion" to paganism is usually cause by some aesthetic nonsense without any actual conviction.

Let me tell you why pagabism is dead: because none of you, huge retards, actually believes the things you say. There are no pagan apologists, nor pagan theologians, nor pagan misionaries. You would lift a finger for the things you claim to believe, you dont believe in something as a product of a hard and long search for the truth, but as a cultural decoration.

Look at your answers. They are pathetic, they dont even try to make paganism sound theologically legitimate. You dont even try to defend a pantheon of gods that contradict each other, you just defend some vague "paganism". There are a million pagan beliefs that contradict your pathetic local paganism yet you dont care at all about them. When you say that people should just believe in "their gods" you concede that the truth does not matters to you, that ypu know they are all false, just some fables and fictional stories, that you are just a hardcpre cringe atheist trying to rebel against Christianity. The answers amount pretty much to "muh ancestors". Religion is not about customs, it is about seeking divine truth. And paganism doesnt make the cut, which is why it is dead.

>>763887

Nope, he and his subjects just ruled wisely.

Wise rulership is even more important than supernatural power, as it is the various Caesar (who were also deitified).

>>763889

>Nope, he and his subjects just ruled wisely.

Hmm that does explain why the allies won WW2.

Their christian god actually had super powers. Where as the Jap god just had wisdom.

>>763887

You're over thinking it friend, the actions of humans here on this Earth aren't necessarily a giant battle royale between Gods of different power levels every single time.

>>763893

I don't think the allies winning WW2 proves the christian god's superiority, unless you admit the christian god is the desert demon all along.

>>763888

Checking those Holy Trips of Infinity

>>763894

I cant really explain all the randomness and chaos any other way.

>>763895

>I don't think the allies winning WW2 proves the christian god's superiority

Because the Christian god was on Germanys side too?

>>763899

Nope, because by winning WW2, comes the decline of Christianity.

>Rites are unneeded for that

If you went into a Hellenic temple and told them their rites were unnecessary, they would kill you – and rightly so.

>>763892

My God, the cringe is going off the charts.The only reason you care about those fables it is because they are what some of your ancestors believed before they converted to Christianity and after what came before it. Well, your ancestors performed those rites and sacrifices, which are requested by the gods. That is why many Christians were persecuted: because in their beliefs their gods should have destroyed the Christians for refusing to make sacrifices, for example. In the texts I linked earlier, the christians mention, among other things, how Christianity does not require the sacrifice of animals and other similar rites in contrast to paganism.

This is what I mean when I say larpagans are a joke: they like to larp about things they know nothing about. What do you expect when your pathetic apology is just "braise seus :DDDD"

You dont believe in them. You know you are just playing pretend to feel "all ancestral n stuff dude weed lmao". Spare us the cringe and just admit you are yet another fedora who hates Christianity.

>>763901 meant for >>763892

>>763895

We are free to as we wish friend, ultimately on this Earth we aren't bound by anything but ourselves, of course we'll do chaotic things all the time.

>>763900

So basically the Germans were the good guys after all?

>>763903

>Well, your ancestors performed those rites and sacrifices, which are requested by the gods

As customs of the time.

>That is why many Christians were persecuted: because in their beliefs their gods should have destroyed the Christians for refusing to make sacrifices, for example.

And they should be, just for wanting to break the unity.

>>763901

Who would kill me, the priests? I spit on priests.

>>763906

Yes, clearly so.

>>763908

>I spit on priests

So you admit it: you are a rebellious, stupid child, not even a faithful pagan. You are showing your ancestors total dishonour. It is disgusting.

>>763910

My ancestors worship gods, not the priests.

As said, worshiping priests is how you got Christianity.

>>763908

No, its not a custom. Sacrifices and rites were performed to calm the gods, who would otherwise destroy them.

There is not unity in oaganidmThere are a million pantheons that contrqdict each other, with cimoletely different gods, with conoletely different stories and origins ("gods" with origins, hue). There were also philosophers and poets who rejected the gods, or were atheists, and nothing was done againts them.

>I spit on priests

Like clockwork. Your ancestors did everything the priests told them to do, that is where every sibgle one of their beliefs and practices come from.

>>763911

The priests were intermediaries for the gods you absolute wretch – they commanded respect. For you to spit on a druid, or a Hellenic priest, or a philosopher of the ancients would be equal to sacrilege and would have placed you into direct opposition of literally everyone around you. They would have killed you for this. How can you be so stupid?

>>763909

Maybe god moves in mysterious ways?

>>763912

>No, its not a custom. Sacrifices and rites were performed to calm the gods, who would otherwise destroy them.

Actually, nope, learn to actual pagan rites. They require regular sacrifices as tributes, extra sacrifices were made for divination and for calming them.

>There is not unity in oaganidm

There is unity in the Greco-roman religion, and the romans wisely attribute their gods to other foreign gods, like equating Mercury with Odin, thus there's no such thing as propagating "there is no god but the jew god" before the Christ cult is formed. Jews were massacred for their treacherous nature.

>There were also philosophers and poets who rejected the gods, or were atheists, and nothing was done againts them.

Because those philosophers and poets were still loyal to the state and the people, and all of them still rely on the gods as archetypical examples.

>Like clockwork. Your ancestors did everything the priests told them to do, that is where every sibgle one of their beliefs and practices come from.

Again, my ancestors worship the gods, not the priests.

>>763913

>The priests were intermediaries for the gods you absolute wretch – they commanded respect.

Not for me, the priesthood is always corrupted in every religion.

The gods flow through my blood, there is no need for any man in between.

>>763916

So the original pagans were wrong? Considering that, for instance, all druids were male priests.

>>763917

Yes, plenty of pagans were heretical or corrupted, not all pagans are good, like in all of religion.

I love how this so-called pagan has just outed himself an edgy, teenage atheist who has less understanding of the ancients than Christians.

>>763916

>Not for me

And this is the issue: You are not a pagan, you are a stupid, disobedient kid who thinks he knows better than the actual pagans who lived thousands of years ago. You are defiling their memory by your misconduct. It is sickening.

>>763911

>Not for me kid, the gods are in ME I need no priest

I mean, up until now it sounded like a crappy DeviantArt fanfic, but now we're full edge mode.

>>763920

>>763919

As said, we worship the gods, not the priests.

Funny how this sends the christian people on edge mode, because they worship the priests, not any god.

>>763911

>he's a pagan IFB

Somebody call pastor Anderson!

>>763916

They required regular sacrifices of animals, and you have none, nor any of the other rites that define those gods.

Even if you try to shoehorn some similarity between two gods in different pantheons, they always have conoletely different storied about them. And that is the only thing that there are about pagan gods: stories for the theatres.

Your ancestors did everything the priests told them to do. It is the priests that told the others what defines their gods.

>Loyal to the state and the people

Nobody was more loyal than Christians, who rejected the perverse diversions, helped the children and the widows, preached the truth and didnt hide.

>The gods flow through my blood

Now Im sure this is satire

>>763923

No one says you or even us are worshipping priests (though some Pagans definitely did) that's just false information.

But since Paganism is long dead what information we do have of it remaining and since there were no established texts, priests undoubtedly made up most of what we know and told them many times over and over and it is through them people got to know about them and through their words some of which still remain, you know about them too, only due to the priests' words.

You may not worship the priests but you're worshipping their words whether you want to admit it or not.

>>763918

So you mean all pagans were corrupted, since every one of the ancient Indo-European religions is known to have had a priestly caste.

>>763925

>They required regular sacrifices of animals, and you have none, nor any of the other rites that define those gods.

Again, worship of the gods, not of the rites.

>Even if you try to shoehorn some similarity between two gods in different pantheons, they always have conoletely different storied about them.

That's not me, that's Tacticus and the romans. In fact, the romans ripped off the greek gods and actually made the romans to be equivalent of greek gods but with different veneration, such is the difference between Mars and Ares.

>Your ancestors did everything the priests told them to do. It is the priests that told the others what defines their gods.

Actually, when Alexander declares himself son of Zeus, no priest dares to say otherwise.

>Nobody was more loyal than Christians, who rejected the perverse diversions, helped the children and the widows, preached the truth and didnt hide.

Yet they refuse to honor their ancestral gods, refuse to worship the Emperor and join in with roman society.

>Now Im sure this is satire

You will never know this, for you worship a foreign god.

>>763929

>No one says you or even us are worshipping priests (though some Pagans definitely did) that's just false information.

Yeah, just look at all the winnie the pooh corpses of saint in the Church, it's winnie the pooh disgusting.

>But since Paganism is long dead what information we do have of it remaining and since there were no established texts, priests undoubtedly made up most of what we know and told them many times over and over and it is through them people got to know about them and through their words some of which still remain, you know about them too, only due to the priests' words.

And? It is the priest's job to record their gods. But this doesn't mean we have to respect the priests.

>>763930

Yes, as a means, and most of these priests are not full time priests, they are writers, physicans, sailors or warriors.

>>763935

What does being full-time or part-time change?

>>763932

>Again, worship of the gods, not of the rites.

You can't offer appropriate worship without the correct rites and rituals.

>>763932

And how did Alexander know who was Zeus and what did he do? He heard it from the priests and from his fellow Greeks who got their knowledge of the gods from the priests.

Also now you're worshipping the Emperor of the state while until now you were worshipping only the gods?

>>763935

You fool, you would be just another edgy Atheist in this degenerate world had it not been for those priests you wouldn't have the slightest clue about your little fantasy, and you dare to not even show respect to them?

It speaks volumes about your larping.

>>763936

It changes their focus. A priest is just a part time job.

>>763937

Wrong, you actually can.

That's exactly where the whole worshiping priests come from.

>>763932

You must only worship God, not things that do not exist, which even you admit are a bunch of retards proclaiming themselves gods and creting fanfics from other fanfics. God that, by the way, require the rites as a part of their worship.

Now you say that people who rejected the pagan gods or were atheists werent persecuted because they were loyal. But now you say that in order to be loyal you have to honor the gods and worship a random man.

>>763938

>And how did Alexander know who was Zeus and what did he do?

His teacher, his father taught him.

>their knowledge of the gods from the priests.

Actually, it is the gods who give their knowledge to the people, the priests just simply copy them.

>Also now you're worshipping the Emperor of the state while until now you were worshipping only the gods?

Per Imperial religion, the Emperor of the state is a god.

>You fool, you would be just another edgy Atheist in this degenerate world had it not been for those priests you wouldn't have the slightest clue about your little fantasy, and you dare to not even show respect to them?

Why should I respect them for doing their job? They aren't doing it for free.

>>763935

So let me get this straight. You believe that priests (those who delicate their lives to a religion and furthering it's cause) are always corrupt and worthless in terms of spiritual, that these spiritual teachers peddle lies, and that paganism's half forgotten traditions and rites are similarly worthless.

Why are you a pagan again? You could just say you worship your own ancestors.

>>763940

>You must only worship God, not things that do not exist,

And this is where christians reveal their treacherous nature.

Caesar exists and he's a god by the Imperial religion.

If you are in Rome, but you do not act like Roman, away with ye.

>But now you say that in order to be loyal you have to honor the gods and worship a random man.

That "random man" is Caesar, the head of the Imperial cult. Meanwhile you worship a random jew and declare yourself loyal to the state.

Out with ye, vipers and liars.

>>763943

Again, the ancestral gods are my ancestors, thus I venerate them.

Is this a big twist to you?

I'm not here to worship the corrupt priesthood and their ritual.

>>763945

So you admit your "gods" are just a bunch of glorified men from tales.

>>763947

>My gods are my ancestors

And there we have it! G'night everybody!

>>763947

My God is the uncaused cause, the creator of all external to time, omnipotent, all knowing, perfect, without beginning or end, who revealed himself through prophets who announced Christ. Christ fulfilled the prophecies, performed miracles and ressurrected. All of this what witnessed by people who died for what they saw, and reported it in detail. Not even their greatest enemies, the jews, tried to deny what they witnessed.

By the way "pagan" friend, how os that reconstruction of the jewish temple going? :^)

>>763950

>Sounds inhumane

HOT TAKE: God isn't just a dude who lived some time during the past like your claim your ancestors to be.

Say you surprisingly manage to carry your bloodline that long, 2000 years from now, do you expect your descendants then to consider and worship you as a God just on the basis that you're their ancestor?

>>763950

It is amusing to see larpagans surprised that someone could ever think that God is not a human. Of course God is well beyond humans you fool

I dont think you know what Im talking about when I mentioned the reconstruction of the temple.Look up the reconstruction of the temple by Julian the apostate.

>>763953

Inhumane as something that surpasses himanity because obviously God is not just some human.

Well well well it turns out that your noble pagans were the ones trying to appease the jews. By the way, it couldnt be arsonists. The jews were protected by the emperor, and the calamities that were needed to make Julian stop trying to rebuild the temple werent just someone trying to throw a torch. Also, even the pagan historians report fire coming from the ground. Sorry, but it was the pagans who were arsonists. They burned christians alive, among many other things.

>>763953

The one and only definition that is true and matters the Biblical one.

But Wiki sums it up well enough.

"In monotheistic thought, God is conceived of as the supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith.[3] The concept of God, as described by theologians, commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence (all-present), and as having an eternal and necessary existence. Depending on one's kind of theism, these attributes are used either in way of analogy, or in a literal sense as distinct properties. God is most often held to be incorporeal (immaterial).[3][4][5] Incorporeality and corporeality of God are related to conceptions of transcendence (being outside nature) and immanence (being in nature) of God, with positions of synthesis such as the "immanent transcendence". Psychoanalyst Carl Jung equated religious ideas of God with transcendental aspects of consciousness in his interpretation."

The blasphemous imperial cults are another matter but they almost never claim to be a Deity on Earth by themselves, they always claim to be descendants of a deity not the deity themselves you larper.

We are creations of God, saying there are people who are God is just well... about as stupid as any of your responses up until now.

>>763957

Jesus isn't just part of God he is God made flesh you fool, but tell us more about how you got it all figured out and know the scripture despite having never even touched it.

>>763961

M8, you've been here arguing against Christ all day and here it is.

You know absolutely nothing about him do you?

>>763961

"God" is not a title. It is a nature.

It is as if you said "I see no reason why this trangle cant be a square"

>>763965

God the Father is not a Jew, as all Hebrews were descendants of one man, Abraham. Abraham is not God the Father.

You truly know nothing of Jesus Christ.

>>763967

That’s not how not works.

A potter makes lots. Is the potter a pot? Quit being ridiculous.

>>763970

*makes pots

>>763972

God didn’t give birth to anyone, He doesn’t have a womb. Your analogy doesn’t work.

>>763975

His mother, not God. He was born of a virgin, who was pregnant purely by miracle.

>>763978

He was born of a virgin

>>763978

Because Ceaser has a human father. Jesus doesn't. Ceaser died and never rose again, Jesus did. Ceaser never performed miracles, Jesus did.

Jesus > Ceaser

>>763982

>But his bloodline is of Mars.

Bullshit.

>>763978

Prove it. And again, the Father is not a human, and any manner of classifying His creation cannot be retroactively applied.

And you know who else claims that the virgin birth is bullshit? The Jews, that’s who.

>>763982

>Also, rising from the dead is not sign of godliness or good

Simple research of Christian theology will surely help you.

>Caesar could claim personal ties to the gods, both by descent and by office

I don't think you can read

>>763987

I doubt you have the attention span to watch embed related.

>still thinks the Israelites of the OT, the sons of Abraham, are all Jews.

Actually look up the definition of Jew instead of regurgitating lies, Charlie.

Ashkenazi Jews =/= Israelites

>gods are just humans with historical relevance

Why worship anything then? They're just humans after all, I don't need worship. I have no use for sacrifices.

>>763986

>Jesus claiming that he was born of a Virgin is bullshit

>But Ceasar claiming that his bloodline is from Mars isn't bullshit

>>763992

Are you replying to the right person? I am arguing for the virgin birth. And I’ve READ embed related.

The Pharisees (from whom the modern Jews come) all claim that nary was not a virgin. Nothing to do with the OT Hebrews.

>>763989

>Simple research of Christian theology will surely help you

Simple research of greek mythology proves otherwise, undead is unholiness.

>>763991

>both by descent and by office

So can you read?

>>763992

Again with the deflection.

Ancient jews are still jews, jew.

>>763993

Then don't worship them and get killed.

The Imperial cult requires worship god kings.

>>763994

>How about you research the basic tenets of the faith you're arguing against?

How about I not?

How about you go and create greek mythology and roman history instead and stop worshiping deset demon?

>>763999

Caesar can claim he's descendant of Mars and that would be feasible.

You cannot be born out of a virgin. And Mary was not a virgin, she had lot of children.

>>764167

Ah yes, the abrahamite who quotes another abrahamite.

>>764170

>converted

I'm not an abrahamite.

I'm here to ask for proof that the Creator god that Plato thought up is the yid god.

>caused anyone here any doubt in Christianity whatsoever.

Yet people here can't even counter argument regarding why they worship sick jew Jesus instead of Caesar.

>>764173

You do not care about anything we have to say; you have dismissed, derided or ignored every post taking you seriously. It is very clear that you are not here to genuinely seek the opinions of others; the only thing you want to do is mock us or try to offend us.

There is nothing else left to say to you.

>>764177

Again, I ask proof, I see none, thus I refuse to care.

>>764178

You have been given proof, but you choose not to accept it. There is nothing else we can do for you.

>>764180

If you are invoking the Bible, which in itself is a dubious source, you suffer from dishonesty.

>>764182

Why are you still responding to me? If you want to just talk with people you could just ask for that.

>>764182

How could we possibly tell you our narrative without going back to our source? Are you dumb?

>>762752

Its rather unfortunate that the poster ran off after this response because I would have been interested to hear how they would have gone about replying to this.

>>764184

History has more than one sources.

Your source is dubious and have been revised again and again.

>>764185

>Its rather unfortunate that the poster ran off after this response because I would have been interested to hear how they would have gone about replying to this.

It's all incredibly taxing (I'm not that poster btw.. but I could see why they bailed). Those who dislike Aquinas hate discussing or even thinking about him… even if they CAN discuss it. No Christian should rely on so much heathen philosophy to discuss God's existence. Any self-respecting Orthodox especially will tell you to discover God through revelation first. Not your noggin. But through the scriptures and liturgy. And they would also tell you to have a healthy appreciation for mystery. God is not for your specimen or a "science" or for you to mentally masturbate over. Submit and shut up.

>>764188

>Submit and shut up.

Very abrahamite, I like.

Too bad the romans didn't purge all abrhamite.

>>764184

Don't bother with the reprobate gook LARPagan (aka Charlie). He is too far gone with his own euphoria to look back at history and all that the Church Fathers died for to be convinced that God is real and that Zeus isn't faggot and a rapist.

Just sage and report him for Ban evasion.

>>764190

>Church fathers

A bunch of jews.

The fact you trust these desert magicians instead of the glory of the Hellenic civilization means you are already far-gone.

>>764189

>Very abrahamite, I like.

>

>Too bad the romans didn't purge all abrhamite.

Only the actual Abraham.. he had a friendship with God because of his humility.

Don't bother including Muslims. God is just as distant to them as he to Romans. Everyday they scream from their minarets praying for success, and everyday they will not be successful.

>>764192

The jews, the arabs all claim kinship to Abraham and the god of his fathers (the Jew/Christian god).

It's all the same shit.

>>764184

>764191

<the gentile Church Fathers were really jews in disguise

Like I said, Charlie is illiterate and knows not what he does. Everyone stop feedimg it (you)s and eventually Charlie will go away.

>>764195

Even the bible said they were jews, I will like to see your proof that the 12 apostles were non-jews.

>>764193

>The jews, the arabs all claim kinship to Abraham and the god of his fathers (the Jew/Christian god).

>

>It's all the same shit.

They do have blood kinship. I only said they were distant. They don't know one thing about actually having a friendship as Abraham did. They're no better than pagans or theists. God is seens as a far away abstract who doesn't really live with them. They cry out to him, be it on top of buildings or in front of wailing walls, but their hopes are full of failure. And I say Romans started doing the same thing themselves, by turning God into a highly ineffable being who mostly only can be known in the afterlife (via the so called Beatific Vision of Aquinas). These are all lonely roads, but for different reasons.

Who's Charlie?

>>764227

The Vietnamese LARPagan that unironically thinks the faggot/rapist Zeus saves people like God saves people.

He is just buttblasted because one Catholic was mean to his people at one point. Just read the posts above and you'll be able to spot it's smugness.

Also, remember to report it for ban evasion.dont bother giving it (you)s

>>764230

Zeus saved the goddamn world, anon.

>>764232

No he didn't because he's not real.

>>764235

I believe he's real, unlike the jew god.

>>764188

>It's all incredibly taxing (I'm not that poster btw.. but I could see why they bailed). Those who dislike Aquinas hate discussing or even thinking about him… even if they CAN discuss it.

I think thats a bit subjective whilst its dry for most people there are still a decent chunk of people who do find discussions of that nature faith affirming and energising. ITs that last part which bothers me the most people seem to be quick to handwave and dislike the thought of Aquinas and other philosophers despite not having knowledge of them or indeed being willing to comprehend what their rejection entails. That other poster seemed to have some grounds for rejecting him but in the absence of response it seems like those answers were canned and not the kind designed to handle questioning.

>No Christian should rely on so much heathen philosophy to discuss God's existence.

I think its important to remember that heathen author =/= heathen philosophy anymore than holding that texts written in Latin or non biblical languages are intrinsically heathen. Indeed even in the Orthodox Church there were Saints who made use of stoic ideas and language initially developed by pagans.

>Any self-respecting Orthodox especially will tell you to discover God through revelation first. Not your noggin. But through the scriptures and liturgy. And they would also tell you to have a healthy appreciation for mystery.

People like Aquinas would be agree. Also bear in mind that schools of thought like this can be helpful in engaging non-Christian audiences and getting them open to message and practices that actually save. So view as just another tool in your belt to evangelise with rather than *the* tool. This is just my opinion though

>>764245

It doesn’t matter what you believe, because there is no evidence for the existence of Zoosiboi. There are, however, many corroborative historical accounts by common people and Roman officials that document the life of Jesus.

>Vietnam

>No blood relationship to the Greeks whatsoever

>He will never be Greek

>He will never parkate of Zeus's golden showers

>He actually shills for free