/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>754009

*better for him to never have been born

Sorry that is what I meant to type.

You're confusing the cause and the effect

Right now, you're thinking:

>God said Judas would betray Jesus Christ, therefore Judas was forced to

What actually happened:

>God saw that Judas Escariot would betray him in the future, the Lord merely relayed that knowledge to people near him

>But wait, if God wanted Jesus to die, then didn't Judas do a good thing?

It would have been a good thing if Judas did that for the sake of completing the prophecy, but he did it to get back at Jesus Christ. Would you try to "get back" on God?

>>754013

That's a very convenient interpretation. Being that allknowledge is an attribute of God, he would have known this from the beginning. Therefore, Jesus could have known this from the beginning to, giving him plenty of time to act in a way that wouldn't get both himself and Judas sent down their paths. So did Jesus choose to damn him or did God?

>>754016

>So did Jesus choose to damn him or did God?

Both of them did. They know what he did, they know he deserves divine judgement, Jesus Christ told him what he was doing multiple times which is more than most people get.

Luke 22:3

John 13: 27

Did Judas freely betray Jesus or was it all Satan? I'm also confused.

>>754009

>John 6:71. Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve? And one of you is a devil.

>John 6:72. Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

Judas was just a bad dude, man.

>>754019

A saved person cannot be possessed by a devil. Judas was not and never was saved.

Just like Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times that night, where is Peter now?

>>754031

So what do you tell "saved" baptists who were possessed by demons and had to be exorcised?

>>754055

That they weren't saved

Judas was damned because he was a calvinist actually.

>>754057

so the guy who was possessed and freed by Jesus wasn't saved yet, who actually met Jesus, unlike you?

the true doctrine (you're not saved until Christ says you are saved at judgement) makes much more sense, your false teaching robs Christ of His Judgement to be frank

>So was Judas destined for be forever damned?

Yes, in fact there's even a verse exactly about this. Are john 17:12

<While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[a] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Also, God uses evil means to bring about his will but that doesn't mean what the people did was right. Look at genesis 50:20 and acts 4:27-28:

<As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

<Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

>>754070

You don't have the Eucharist, you only have your feelings to tell you whether or not you have the Son of God. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord!" will be admitted by Christ.

I was always taught that the true reason Judas suffers is not that he betrayed Christ, but that he despaired. Look at Peter, who denied Him three times but repented. Judas killed himself, and in doing so condemned himself. Judas could have been, and might even be redeemed (though it's probably unlikely he is).

>>754090

I have the Bible

>>754096

Nowhere does Scripture teach that Scripture is enough for salvation.

>>754101

The point is that I'm not relying on ethos, I'm relying on the word and in the other sense the Logos

The Bible says, as we just read, if you believe you know you have eternal life

>>754103

>The point is that I'm not relying on ethos

Can you explain what you mean by this. Because I don't understand

>>754103

>I'm relying on the word and in the other sense the Logos

No, you aren't. If you did, you'd look to the Church built upon Cephas, and upon the Tradition left by the Holy Apostles, you do neither.

>>754104

You know what, it doesn't make sense because I meant to say pathos as in feelings

>>754105

Why are you belittling me and my theology out of nowhere, and with these broad maxims?

Are you seeking a debate on Christian authority?

I shared with you the scriptural source for the claim that you can know you are saved.

>>754101

>Nowhere does Scripture teach that Scripture is enough for salvation.

Sure about that?

<16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

>>754105

I am at least. Not sure about you and your traditions of men.

>>754119

Yeah I'm sure about that.

Find me a verse where it says its all that is needed and we'll talk.

>>754122

Scripture makes you thoroughly equipped for every good work like he just quoted

>>754122

What good work are they being equipped for?

>>754123

But are you thoroughly equipped for salvation?

>>754131

It's about righteousness. What do you think righteousness is? If the bible isn't able to save you for salvation then it cannot equipt you for every good work.

>>754131

The gospel is scripture

>>754131

>Catholics believe that just following the bible doesn't equipt you for salvation and you will go to hell.

>>754009

>I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled,[d] ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’

John 13:18

>26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”

John13:26-27

>What you are going to do, do quickly.

>>754119

17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Let's repeat that:

17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Scripture -> Good works. It's the good works that saves you.

>>754120

You're not. Nobody is saved until Jesus Christ declares us saved.

>>754133

>What do you think righteousness is?

Faith enlivened by good works.

>>754137

You need the good works.

>>754150

Well it's Faith, sanctified by Good works. You can read the Bible, follow it's laws, and do good works. But if you are without Faith, they're dead. Just like Faith without the Works is dead.

>>754154

Of course.

But faith without works: that of almsgiving, charity, prayer, failure to attend to the sacraments, or failure to attend Mass (in violation of one of the commandments) is truly a withered faith.

>>754150

>Scripture -> Good works. It's the good works that saves you.

No one is denying that. Only antinomians would deny the necessity of good works. Even Martin Luther and John Calvin believed in the importance of good works. Martin Luther stated, “If [good] works and love do not blossom forth, it is not genuine faith, the gospel has not gained a foothold, and Christ is not yet rightly known” (Martin Luther, ed. John Dilenberger, Martin Luther, [DoubleDay], xxix).

>You're not. Nobody is saved until Jesus Christ declares us saved.

It's nice that you think that, buts let's see what the Bible says:

<Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 5:9

See how Paul puts our justification in the past tense. It's something that has already happened and since this is the case we now have peace with God.

Romans 5:1

<Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

>Faith enlivened by good works.

Not sure about the word unleavened but even Martin Luther would agree.

>You need the good works.

Good works only serve to make your righteous faith known. Read Romans 4:1-5

<What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

>>754156

We are in agreement, I was just clarifying so a protestant wouldn't freak out

>>754161

Our good works are only a by product of our faith. They do not save.

>>754159

>See how Paul puts our justification in the past tense. It's something that has already happened and since this is the case we now have peace with God.

That's not an denial of the life an active Faith entails.

1. St. Paul reminds us to pursue our Faith with fear and trembling. Which hardly suggests our salvation is assured.

2. Christ warns us that faith is picked up as a seed dropped in a crevice, by either the world, selfishness, or Satan.

3. Finally, Scripture tells us that the path to Heaven is a foot-race. We are not competing against each other, we are competing and contending with ourselves, and against thrones and dominions, demons that seek to plunge us into vice.

Sorry, you are -absolutely- wrong there.

>Good works only serve to make your righteous faith known.

Good works are what the soul can present to Christ at the Judgement.

>>754162

Faith without works are dead.

Thus, Faith with good works is salvific.

>>754159

<Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood,

Past tense

<much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Future tense, implying being saved is still an idea that is only in the future.

>>754163

>That's not an denial of the life an active Faith entails.

Who said that we deny good works?

>1.

You're quoting Philippians 2:12 but read the very next verse:

<for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

The good works we do are not ours but God working in us. We are his clay vessels worked out according to his will.

>2.

There was nothing wrong with the faith rather the issued lied in the ones who were unable to recieve the word. Some were too hardened.

>3.

Again, you are only quoting part of the Bible. You quoted Romans 8:37 but ignore what it actually says

<For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is not us who fights against demons thrones and dominions. And it is not us who runs the race but rather God who runs in us.

>>754165

If you have a faith that does not have good works then yes it is dead. True faith shows it's existence by good works but those good works do not save is but rather show evidence of a lively faith. Again, I refer you to Romans 4:1-5:

<<What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

>>754166

We are saved here on earth by our faith but in the future we are saved in the sense that we are brought back into the presence of God.

>>754169

>The good works we do are not ours but God working in us. We are his clay vessels worked out according to his will

Yeah we need to respond to his and actively work with him. This is where protestant theology diverges, saying we can only respond. We can still help people without grace, but they are not deemed good works in his eyes because we are not Living his faith. We would be dead in his faith.

>>754169

>Who said that we deny good works?

You believe in sola fide and sola scriptura. Neither Faith alone nor Scripture alone saves.

And you will not know you are saved until Christ tells you. You seek to rob Christ of His Judgement through legalism, it is a great sin of presumption, not to mention of heresy.

>We are his clay vessels worked out according to his will.

your terminology is suspect, we must in turn comply with God's will. As Christ said: "Not my will, but your's." Determinism is a deadly heresy.

>It is not us who fights against demons thrones and dominions. And it is not us who runs the race but rather God who runs in us.

You correct Scripture itself. It doesn't say that.

>>754174

Now, you're overly reading into it and changing what being "saved" means. That's just bad exegesis.

>>754169

>It is not us who fights against demons thrones and dominions. And it is not us who runs the race but rather God who runs in us.

Moreover, you say that is God Himself who must pursue Heaven as a foot-race? Christ already suffered His Passion! That's nonsensical. Scripture is clearly referring to the devout here.

>>754176

>Yeah we need to respond to his and actively work with him.

That's not what it says. It's not saying that we need to respond to God, it's saying that all our good works are God working in us not us participating with his grace or whatever else Catholics believe.

>>754177

>Neither Faith alone nor Scripture alone saves.

So you think that someone who trusts in God and follows the bible will go hell? Cathodox amaze me.

>And you will not know you are saved until Christ tells you.

Just as Paul knew now, so do we.

>His Judgement through legalism

>legalism

I don't think you know what that word means. The irony of a Cathodox calling me legalistic, wew.

>your terminology is suspect,

It's a biblical terminology but you're a Cathodox so I don't blame you for not being familiar with the bible. Carry on reading your church fathers.

<Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?

btw, here's the suspect terminology you were talking about.

>Determinism is a deadly heresy.

I don't care what you or your church or your council says is heresy. I'm more concerned with the bible.

<27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Acts 4:27-28

>It doesn't say that.

I legit just quoted the verse. You tell me what it means then.

>>754178

Paul says we are justified in the past tense that that can only mean being made right with God as seen by the context. The only thing we wait for now is the true salvation where we're finally reunited with God.

>>754179

>Moreover, you say that is God Himself who must pursue Heaven as a foot-race?

Not exactly, God is moving us from the inside to do his will.

>>754188

>That's not what it says. It's not saying that we need to respond to God, it's saying that all our good works are God working in us not us participating with his grace or whatever else Catholics believe

I know it's not. How else do you think we do the will of God? Doing good works sanctifies us by doing the will of God.

We are on agreence here, I'll show you where we diverge from each other.

>Paul says we are justified in the past tense that that can only mean being made right with God as seen by the context.

Of course, and this is by doing Good works, responding to Gods will.

>the only thing we wait for now is the true salvation where we're finally reunited with God.

It's the only Salvation and the one we have been talking about.

There is no "salvation" on this earth that takes place other than having Faith. Having Faith on this earth allows us to do good works on this earth to have Salvation after we die.

Grace is the gift that we partake in that allows us Faith and Good Works. Without it both faith and good works are dead.

Gods sanctification is a passive process that takes place in side of us. We are a reactive process of his will. Without having him we would have nothing to act on, or react to.

We are only passive when we cannot see God's will, and being passive to God is dead in faith.

>>754122

John 20:30-31 NASB — Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

>>754009

Maybe you should look at correspondences with the story of Cain and Abel. The kiss of Judas was not the first, and certainly is not the last time that the Logos has defined itself as contrary to the typology of the traitor.

It would be wrong to say that God singled out Judas Iscariot to be the traitor, and better to say that Judas Iscariot represents our fallen nature by betraying the Logos (as we all do when we sin). It could have been literally anyone else, the fact that God knew whom it would be is potentially just unimportant. What is important is that the sinfulness of our nature recapitulates in Judas' act of ultimate evil.

He attempts to bury God, just like the Pharisees, just like every self-indulgent self-centered fedora. The miracle is that despite deserving the same vile death as Judas falling off a cliff and landing "Blood Upon the Risers" style, that God hasn't thrown us into the sun, and then thrown this universe into the trash like just about every last one of us would in the same position as Him. Instead we are given good news and promises, and treated like sons.

>>754031

So was Judas guilty of betraying Jesus or is that entirely Satan because of the possession? He felt guilty enough that he killed himself, but why didn't he repent instead?

>>757962

Does that seem likely? Perhaps killing the outward manifestation of God is like trying to kill the inward manifestation of God (the unforgivable sin according to apostolic exegesis).

>>754009

>20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

Genesis 50:20

God can use evil for the purpose of good but this doesn't mean that the tools he used to bring about his goodness are any less guilty of sin. Also, Christ said it would have been better for he if he had "never been born."