/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>728997

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.

>>728997

Separating Church and State was a mistake.

>>728997

Your hatred does not hurt them. Your hatred only hurts you.

>>729000

cultists aren't brothers and sisters because they aren't saved, John 1:12

>>729002

this is your bootlicker mind on papism

>>728997

>this is your bootlicker mind on papism

I guess a proliferation of heresies that kill the soul is a good thing?

>>729007

is that what I said?

>>729007

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

>>729008

its implied

>>729009

I suppose this tbh

>>729012

Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.

Aye guys Imma paladion, uerrrghg I am gona show you tyhe light ugggrhrrhr I am so hollly urgh!!!! I am gonna deus vuluts the heretics burn int eh FIRE URGHH!

>>728997

Of those, I really do hate Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists. Their heresies have caused many children to suffer and die. After corrupting the souls of people taken into their heresy, they cause their children to suffer and die, then the news of that reflects onto all Christians and corrupts the souls of numerous non-Christians who might have been saved. It’s a sandwich made of corrupt souls with child death fillings. What miserable organizations.

>>729020

>>729025

But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

>>728997

Christ said to love your neighbors and enemies so…

>>729000

One of the greatest mistakes Christendom ever made was calling EVERYBODY a "brother or sister" or a "neighbor".

>but muh good samaritan!

This is where so many Christians fail logic. Jesus asked the question, among the men on the road, who was a neighbor? Logically then, there is a converse - who WEREN'T neighbors?

>>729028

You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

>>729033

There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

>>729036

so if someone was about to kill your child, you would let them because "who are you to judge"

>>729004

>Your hatred only hurts you.

INCORRECTOMUNDO

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Good on him, for agreeing with God.

>>729038

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

>>729042

>Responding to >>729038 with that

You're about to create a misunderstanding or get ousted out, rightfully

>>729042

see

>>729039

>>729025

>>729026

I’m not talking about spiritual death or anything, I’m talking about literal actual death of children by denying them proper medical care

http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/06/us/in-child-deaths-a-test-for-christian-science.html

>>729011

it is not implied, you're creating a false dichotomy

the intrusion of the state is not necessary for combating heresies, especially considering what a lousy job state religion has done throughout time

>>729039

>>729045

If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

>>729043

For this child I prayed, and the Lord has granted me my petition that I made to him. Therefore I have lent him to the Lord. As long as he lives, he is lent to the Lord

>>729067

>Second reply

What do you mean to say now?

>>729075

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

>>729036

>bible says to judge rightly and with understanding

>anon says to not judge or think at all, just let everyone "be"

lol

>>729082

lol

>>729084

>>729088

For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fools; this also is vanity.

>>729052

>As opposed to the great job all secularism made to combat heresies or even holding up to the most basic morals.

Lol man. Look at America/Europe now. You think secularism did anything but total chaos and destruction of Christianity?

>>729093

Yes, in the narrow definition of secularism as "state uninvolvement in church affairs" it has been a productive practice

>>729095

>state uninvolvement in church affairs

We mean to say we want church involvement in state affairs, not the other way around.

We're also getting trolled, apparently

>>729097

there is no legal prohibition against churches telling the government and politicians what they think, the concept is exclusively intended to curtail the state

>>728997

In other words, you hate what America did to Christianity?

Yeah, me too.

>>729113

I am going to tell you that

The concept is an American invention first found in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a group of concerned Baptists who feared the new government might infringe on their religion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

>What happened in the past that made you think it was bad?

<In Nikolsburg, Hubmaier's preaching soon made converts to Anabaptism out of the group of Zwinglians who lived in the area. Political fortunes turned, however, and Ferdinand, to whom Hubmaier had already become an enemy while in Waldshut, gained control of Bohemia, thus placing Hubmaier once again in Ferdinand's jurisdiction. Hubmaier and his wife were seized by the Austrian authorities and taken to Vienna. He was held in the castle Gratzenstein (now called "Burg Kreuzenstein" in German), until March 1528.

<"I may err – I am a man," he wrote, "but a heretic I cannot be, because I ask constantly for instruction in the word of God." (Estep, p192) He suffered torture on the rack, and was tried for heresy and convicted. On 10 March 1528, he was taken to the public square and executed by burning. His wife exhorted him to remain steadfast. A monument to "Dr. Balthasar Hubmaier" was erected on Dr.-Karl-Lueger-Platz in Vienna, vis-a-vis the statue of Vienna's anti-Semitic mayor.

<Three days after his execution, his wife, with a stone tied around her neck, was drowned in the River Danube.

>>729118

You're throwing me to someone making a argument for separation of church and state, like we're doing right now.

This is really not what I want right now because I'm trying to point out a problem with making arguments instead of deferring to reality. This doesn't help that situation again.

Arguments should refer to facts, not the other way around.

>>729113

>Is it going to be something that could have happened even if the government was in fact divided like they are right now?

Key point. Whatever great evil, you seem to despise from, the church being united as one, and as equals. Will more than likely, and has occurred from a separated one. All this does is, undermine God's authority, fs you take the Biblical worldview to be True. Nice point you made. People seem to assume, Ah ha, now that i have separated church and state, Therefore, the state just Magically becomes immune to repeating said actions i hated. How, Foolish, talk about some pipe dream. You've just handed over the keys to the Kingdom. To people from the Revolutionary period of the Enlightenment. And it usually is coming out of people who are oh, against the death penalty, Against capital punishment, Against self defense, things with all the ancient Christians/Church Fathers.

>>729121

you're not making any sense

>>729126

Excuse me*Church and state being united, as one as equals* It's late. But again if you support this view. You're right in bed With the revolutionaries of the Enlightenment, Which they had an agenda, to Undermine the church, and her power/influence. Which is just basic history. You're for a trap guys. Coming from someone who once, wasn't sure on the death penalty and the bible, self defense, etc.

>>729127

I need a example of something that wouldn't have happened if the state and the church weren't separated.

>>729118 doesn't work because its a argument. I want something concrete. Something factual.

>>729135

your question was "what happened in the past that made you think it was bad", so I gave just one example of tyrannical church/government persecution

I provided a concrete, factual historical event

In the absence of a state church, no such persecution happened in the US since our founding, and Biblical Christianity has flourished

>>729139

>so I gave just one example of tyrannical church/government persecution

Oh I see.

Let me check back.

>Hubmaier's preaching soon made converts to Anabaptism out of the group of Zwinglians who lived in the area

I don't have a problem with baptists being jailed, given they lead people to hell.

>but a heretic I cannot be, because I ask constantly for instruction in the word of God.

We've had similar words said by heretics that not even baptists like, such as the montanists, so pardon me for not taking this declaration seriously.

>and Biblical Christianity has flourished

In the US?

I think you live too much inside your gated community of Christians..

>>729141

you are a lemming

Do you have any critical thinking skills? What happens when the government is heretical on YOUR standards?

I don't know if you noticed, but we're talking about Zurich and Zwingli. He was a reformer, so decidedly NON-catholic. Catholics got persecuted too.

>>729141

>baptists should be jailed and executed

yikes

>>729111

I'm talking about cults and heresies. Freedom of religion does that. Especially the pioneer era, where many of these popped up. Individualism is a double edged sword.

As for missionaries, some of them are those very cults spreading their taint throughout the world. Mormons especially.

>>729143

You see this is where the "no real life reference" problem you have starts to hit.

Governments that are under the "separation of church and state" rules can do that, they already are. There's a thread up about how someone got jailed for preaching about Jesus Christ up in this very board.

Everything you praise separation for never happened. It changed nothing.

>But if there was a separation of church and state, then Zurich and Zwingly wouldn't have persecuted Christians

They would have switched to more subtle methods, since they already had oppression of Christians in mind.

>is a larper

>revealed he's orthodox

Every time

>>729139

>>729143

Separation of church and state relies on a false equality of religions that does not exist. Fact is, Christianity is the true religion, and it is the duty of the magistrates to support true religion within their realm. Why should the true religion be unequally yoked together with unbelievers? They are not actually equal, so we should they be treated as such? Is it not the duty of the state to punish sin, and is it not sin to blaspheme God? To give you an example of how the secular state is impossible, inasmuch as it is impossible to ignore religion, let's say a muslim goes on a killing spree for Allah. Now, he is brought before the court, and he protests that what he did was righteous according to his faith. How can the court then judge him? After all, it seeks to ignore religion, but he committed his crime because his Islamic faith compelled him to. How, then, can he be punished, unless the court recognizes Islam as a false religion? For his argument is unavoidably true, what he did was most righteous if Islam is true, so what he did can only be wrong if Islam is false.

>>729236

It's very simple, you just arrest the non-Muslims who point out that Muslims are supposed to kill non-Muslims because otherwise those non-Muslims will radicalize the Muslims into acting like Muslims. We're already doing it that way in Europe, it works super well.

>>729222

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

>>729269

Dogma about the deity of Christ have nothing to do with "quarrels of the law". It's absolutely central.

>>729236

fundamental misunderstanding of the phrase "separation of church and state"

I'm tempted to think you're being deliberate

American lawmakers are equally able to conform the laws to scripture as in a medieval system

example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_on_sharia_law

The relevant difference is that the state, a coercive organization with a monopoly on violence, is forbidden from interfering with churches so long as those church practices don't infringe on the rights of others

>>729273

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

>>729331

>>729269

>>729091

>>729082

>>729067

>>729042

>>729036

>>729032

>>729026

>>729013

>>729009

>>729000

"Hell is the eternal platitude" - Fyodor Sologub

>>729324

>The relevant difference is that the state, a coercive organization with a monopoly on violence, is forbidden from interfering with churches so long as those church practices don't infringe on the rights of others

Again, it's impossible to judge religious actions without judging the religion. You are equating a godly state with a state that has zero tolerance for dissenting religions. You failed to deal with the example because you can't, the state cannot act against jihad without officially recognizing Islam as a false religion, which would not be indifference toward religion. There is no such thing as a religiously indifferent state, the state secularism you keep advocating is really nothing more than state atheism.

I hate heresies as well, but I'm hopeful for Catholicism and Oriental Orthodoxy (I'm Eastern Orthodox). They are separated from truth and salvation but they're still immensely closer to it than Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses and Muslims are. I genuinely think the Chalcedonian schism and the Great schism could end up being solved within the next 300 years, God willing, but Messianic Jews, Oneness Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. are way off the mark and I don't see a "peaceful" resolution for these.

>>728997

Your feelings are just and shared by many. Good for you.

>>728997

Yes, they are horrible scars in the mystical body of Christ with their doctrinal blasphemy.

However this hate will damage you more than it damages them, they will earn the wage of their actions, don't be mad because God is not fooled.

>>729669

>However this hate will damage you more than it damages them

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Why didn't God reproof him there? Hating the Nicolaitan heresy will damage him.

>I hate

Fill your heart with Christ instead.

>>729812

He did, it seems, otherwise he would not hate heresy.

Jeez I did a counterpoint right in the post above you. Sage for near doublepost.

I hate mondays!

>>729255

hating heresies =/= hating heretics