/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>723445

>every human has evil inside

evil is deficiency, it is not substantial, so no one can "have" evil, only be deficient of Good

>or that every human is inherently evil and can only become good via the grace of God?

Thats Calvinism, Patrick

mreow?

Original sin exists when free will was given to us. Humanity decided to rebel from God and lives in a rebelious state. Original sin isnt like a normal sin that looms over everyone, it is more a state of being that is removed when we end that rebelious state and become baptised.

>every human is inherently evil and can only become good via the grace of God?

Every human is sinful and only good with the grace of God, not inherently evil. We are sinful by choice, not by nature, and we can only overcome sinful decisions by cooperating with the grace of God

We are not born evil, but we are born inheriting the consequences of Adam's sin - tendency to sin, weakness to the passions, estrangement from God, and finally death, making Hell (or Sheol, or Hades, or the grave, or the abode of the dead) our final destination.

Having original sin does not make us personally responsible for Adam's sin, nor does it make us evil. It does, however, condemn us to die and then go to Hell, even if we do not have time to actually commit a personal sin in our life (because of dying at birth for instance).

Note that we do not go to Hell as punishment from God, or because we're evil, but because our nature is damaged by original sin and we are too weak on our own to be reunited with God. You could say we have become broken, malfunctioning machines. We need to be baptized to be saved.

Original sin should exclusively refer to the first sin in Eden, but theologically it means inherited guilt from Adam. This is not consistent with the Bible.

Consider how David reacts in 2 Samuel 12 when his son dies. Is he distraught because the child was under God's wrath from sin he didn't commit, and therefore in hell? No!

"While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.'

23 "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Sam. 12:22-23 NAS)

Notice also that there wasn't any mention of infant baptism, or no pre-Christ alternative for washing away the so-called original sin

>>723466

>we don't bear responsibility

>it condemns us to die and then go to Hell

direct contradiction

>we do not go to Hell as punishment

He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

(Rev. 21:7-8 NAS)

That is punishment

This is the natural conclusion of pedobaptism

>>723595

no you silly protty. limbo of the infants is a natural paradise. there is a difference between a natural paradise (such as the garden of eden) and heaven, which is a supernatural free gift. based on your logic, adam and eve should have been in heaven. (making you an idiotic muslim).

limbo of the infants, a natural paradise, is not punishment. heaven is a reward no one deserves. suddenly you feel entitled to heaven? that if you don't get to heaven you are being punished, cause you expect that? the state of prots.

>>723600

Did David go to the "limbo of infants" too, or did he go to Heaven?

read: "I shall go to him"

>>723595

>direct contradiction

How?

We go to Hell because our soul is weakened, not because it is fundamentally opposed to God. Rather it struggles to receive God's grace.

>Revelation

This is about the second death, the Gehenna. I am talking about Hell.

>>723609

What do you mean when you say "responsible"?

>>723631

Adam's sin is his own, and our sin is its own. Adam's sin had a consequence that affected all of mankind, but we are not personally guilty of the sin Adam committed, and guilt is not hereditary overall.

>>723648

That's a contradiction from

>Having original sin… does, however, condemn us to die and then go to Hell

>>723601

he went to the limbo of the fathers,

i shall go, but not immediately, he did end up in heaven afterwards

>>723650

How? I'm genuinely confused, I don't understand what you mean by this.

>>723650

if your parents mess up and leave you in a burning building, you will die. doesn't mean it's your fault. you can abuse your children and they can grow up with severe defects and issues, doesn't mean it's their fault. your mother can drink when she's pregnant and give birth to a deformed baby, doesn't mean it's the babies fault.

Hell is not being in heaven. No one believes that you are eternally punished if you die as an unbaptized baby - but that if you go to Hell that part is called the limbo of the infants, which is a natural paradise. there is not one father or respected saint etc that says you are punished. going to limbo is not a punishment. nobody is owed heaven, if you are deprived of heaven it's not a punishment because no one deserves it.

your parent can forcefully inject you with meth every day as a child, and guess what, you'll be addicted to meth. not your fault but thats the world we live in. and living life addicted to meth is much harder than if you didn't have that addiction. this is original "sin". people get confused with the word sin, as if we are responsible for it. we share no guilt, but we inherit a condition that makes it harder for us not to sin than adam and eve. ultimately though even if we didn't have original sin, we could still sin, just like adam and eve, and the biggest sinner of all, Satan. this guy is the king of sinners and was created as one of the most perfect creations (many hold only Mary was more perfect of a creature). but get he's the OG king of sinners, so it's not like original sin is the sole cause of our sins.

also it is commonly held by most fathers that there are daily limbo contests in limbo of the infants, so it seems like a fun place. also babies are very flexible so they are exceptionally good at limbo.

>>723659

>>723661

It sounds like you're using "guilt" to only refer to the one who committed the offense, but in biblical terms "guilt" can mean the burden of the offense

>All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Iniquity = guilt

Condemnation comes because of guilt