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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 23d8663b9e6c553⋯.jpg (89.22 KB, 1725x967, 1725:967, Sirach.jpg)

dabb31  No.717883

Wisdom of Sirach/Ecclesiasticus Chapter 12:4-7

>4 Give to a godly man, but do not help the sinner 5 Do good to a humble man, but do not give to an ungodly man.

Hold back his bread and do not give it to him, lest by it he lord it over you. For you will receive twice as much evil coming back for all the good you did for him. 6 For the Most High also hates sinners and will render punishment on the ungodly. Give to the good man, but do not help the sinner.

Luke 6:27-31

>“But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise

Could someone explain the apparent disagreement between Sirach and Jesus? Don't misunderstand my motives for making this thread. I'm not trying to de-legitimize Sirach or say it's not biblical or any other sort of interdenominational shit flinging. I like the book and I'm sure there's a deeper meaning here, I just want to know what that is.

98d8a9  No.717886

>>717883

It's probably the OT view on helping "good" vs "bad" people, in light of the NT it could mean something akin to throwing pearls.

>Hold back his bread

Could be a foreshadowing of the Eucharist in the Church.


a02594  No.717888

>>717883

>Wisdom of Sirach/Ecclesiasticus Chapter 12:4-7

>4 Give to a godly man, but do not help the sinner 5 Do good to a humble man, but do not give to an ungodly man. Hold back his bread and do not give it to him, lest by it he lord it over you. For you will receive twice as much evil coming back for all the good you did for him. 6 For the Most High also hates sinners and will render punishment on the ungodly. Give to the good man, but do not help the sinner.

You have freed me from a terrible curse where my conscience would punish me for not behaving like a cuck. God bless you and the spirit that sent you.


171aab  No.717891

>>717883

Jesus dined with sinners, but his close personal circle was the apostles. Pray for and love sinners and do good to them within reason, but do not chain yourselves to unrepentant degenerates who actively abuse, harm and negatively influence you.

>2 Corinthians 6:14 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Even in the church, if someone misbehaves one too many times they are excommunicated:

>Matthew 18:15-17 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


923116  No.717893

The scriptures are written by people, there is a variety of views in there. You also have Jeremiah who not only ends up refusing to pray for his enemies, but even prays for God to make them suffer as much as possible. Or Jonas getting upset by God being merciful toward the Ninevites.

If you have to interpret anything, interpret it through the Gospel. In this case, I can obviously point out that God may hate sinners, but He hates them in the sense He hates what they do, not in the sense that He hates them in their person, proven in that He died for us even as we were still unrepentant sinners, and even forgave the very people crucifying Him. However, if we give something to help a sinner continue in their sin, we perpetuate what God hates and so we do not please Him. Jesus ben Sirach is wrong to think that God hates sinners in their person to the point they do not deserve bread if they are hungry, but he is right to point out that if you give something to a sinner so that they can "lord it over you" (by doubling down on their sin and pride with what you gave them), you are at least very misguided and not doing what God wants. For instance, do not give a homeless person money if they tell you it's to buy heroin. Do not give money to someone so they can organize a LGBT group. And so on…


9873e7  No.717927

>>717883

One of these books is probably not the word of God.

Sirach bluntly says DO NOT help a sinner, at all. So, I'm not supposed to give shaving cream/shampoo/soap to a homeless man?

You can try to spin Sirach all you want but it seems quite clear to me, and it clearly contradicts the Gospels. In fact, it contradicts the Old Testament as well, David always was merciful to Saul.


98d8a9  No.717935

>>717927

>Sirach says don't help evil people

>So, I'm not supposed to give shaving cream/shampoo/soap to a homeless man?

Are you a gymnast? Because that's a mighty fine stretch you've got there.


9873e7  No.717939

>>717935

Says dont help sinners. Thats what it says.

Also:

>there are none righteous, no, not one

>all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

>if we say we have no sin we are liars


98d8a9  No.717940

>>717939

Who are the "righteous" men in the Psalms and Proverbs?


23e022  No.717954

>>717939

>>717940

I have been thinking about this lately. Why does Christ say none are righteous but there are clearly men described as righteous? Namely Job and John the Baptist's parents.


98d8a9  No.717955

>>717954

I think it means that there are none righteous in comparison to God, but there are men who are "righteous" by God's grace.


8dc90b  No.721134

Bump


194c56  No.721152

St. Augustine comments on this very question in De Doctrina Christiana (3.16). He lays out a general principal of interpretation.

>Si praeceptiva locutio est aut flagitium aut facinus vetans, aut utilitatem aut beneficientiam iubens, non est figurata. Si autem flagitium aut facinus videtur iubere aut utilitatem et beneficentiam vetare, figurata est.

http://www.augustinus.it/latino/dottrina_cristiana/index2.htm

Translated:

>If a saying of precept forbids either a shamefulness or wickedness, our commands either what is sensible or kindness, then it is not figurative. If, on the other hand, it seems to comman shamefulness or wickedness, or to forbid what is sensible or kindness, then it is a figure.

This seems like a common-sense principle in general. Though it might be objected that, due to some failing on our part, something that contradicts our common sense in scripture may in fact be a genuine challenge to our beliefs. But I think more often than not, Augustine's principal holds.

On this particular verse.

>Scriptum est: Da misericordi, et ne suscipias peccatorem [Eccl. 12.4]. Posterior pars huius sententiae videtur vetare beneficentiam; ait enim: Ne suscipias peccatorem; intellegas ergo peccatorem figurate positum pro peccato, ut peccatum eius non suscipias.

>It is written, "give to the merciful, and do not receive the sinner." The latter part of this statement seems to forbid kindness, for it says, "do not entertain the sinner." Therefore, understand the sinner is used as a figure for sin, i.e. that you not receive his sin.

So I think "suscipiat" here can be taken in a couple senses. One is that we don't aid the sinner in his sin, whether by aiding the sinner to commit sin or even becoming an accomplice to his sin, but another is that we don't take up the sin for ourselves.

Thomas Aquinas also comments on this verse in the Summa Theologica, giving a similar opinion.

>We ought not to help a sinner as such, that is by encouraging him to sin, but as man, that is by supporting his nature.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3032.htm#article9

Another possible and more litetal interpretation is perhaps that this passage is giving practical advice, while Christ's preaching in the Gospel calls us to a higher standard of benevolence. If we personally involve ourselves too closely with bad people, we may find ourselves the victim of their evil actions. On the other hand, we should try to render kindness and basic material needs to all people regardless of whether we stand to gain any personal benefit. How best to accomplish this and in what circumstances is a prudential judgment. For example, I'm sure you have read stories about someone who stops to help someone on the side of the road and ends up getting robbed and murdered. If we are single and without obligations to others we might be more willing to put ourselves in risky situations, whereas when we have a wife and children, we're more cautious of our personal safety on our family's behalf. So, understood in this sense, they're not saying contradictory things, but they're approaching a similar question from two different, complimentary aspects.


9873e7  No.721160

>>721152

>Wall of text

And IM the mental gymnast.

Sirach says word for word “do not help sinners” not “don’t help people to sin”

You can’t walltext your way out of what Sirach truly says.


194c56  No.721221

>>721160

LOL

>Jesus literally says hate your father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, and your life. Can't wall-o-text your way out of this one, YOU STUPID IDIOTS!


b869c0  No.721369

The gospel enjoins us to do good to all. St. Augustine (Dort. iii. 16.) and St. Thomas Aquinas (ii. 2. q. xxxii. a ix.) explain this in a spiritual sense, that we must not partake in the crimes of others. We may also make presents to the virtuous, and pass over people of a different character, particularly when they would abuse our gifts. The honest poor must be preserved.




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