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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 24ab0e8b11d686a⋯.jpg (339.33 KB, 850x1202, 425:601, AIuCAsN.jpg)

e71e6b  No.714508

I’m trying to bring my best friend to Christ. I know you get a lot of questions, but I hope you wouldn’t mind prioritizing this one. Either way, Thank you.

I’ve rewritten my friend’s statements/questions here:

Theologically, humans are inherently prone to sin, and in this case, I’m referring primarily to cheating, deceiving, and acting in such a way which benefits a person, perhaps also groups, to propagate their culture and genepool. Any sin more or less could be within this framework, but I’m trying to refer to actions, which are rewarded by evolution primarily.

If nature operates under God’s rules, why do they favor the wicked? To clarify more, someone who cheats on their spouse, can spread their genes further. Women who submitted to conquerors in ancient times, their genes were past on, but those who resisted or committed suicide with their children to protect them from a worse fate and in a way "remain loyal to their slain husbands,” did not pass on their genes. I’m not claiming all behavior is genetically predetermined. But there can be no doubt that many people are prone to screw anyone they can to get ahead or otherwise put their own survival before morals, if they think they can get away with it. These types of behavior are common throughout nature where survival is the only law, and so my friend believes the game is "rigged" to favor "wicked" behavior.

It is difficult for him to accept that God exists (the Christian God) when the laws of nature / evolution itself seem to put good at a disadvantage. This isn’t the Problem of Evil. It’s NOT about why God allows evil to exist, since there are good answers for that, but why the physical world which God created seemed rigged in favor of evil. Wickedness, being beneficial simply due to evolutionary pressure / laws of nature, aren’t related to Satan or free will. Basically, this isn’t about Freewill or the influence of Satan and other evil divine forces, but the rules of nature and biology itself, which humans must operate under.

bd58a9  No.714517

>>714508

Mmm he is right, nature rewards stuff like that in the short term. In the long term, you can't form societies based on that behavior. Also, propagation of genes as a result of cheating might be seen as good, but a child that's not raised by his mom and dad and it's being ostracized as a bastard is not really pleasant.

If you look at our civilization and what we've achieved, would you say that the wicked built it? Would you say they were rewarded? Would you say violence and cheating gets rewarded in our civilization? If evolution truly favoured the wicked, we wouldn't have this civilization.


e71e6b  No.714519

I agree it's less violent for sure, but is it really less dishonest? You do make a good point, but I don't think this will be enough to convince him, and I'm certain he would dispute that humans are more honest. Christianity makes people less subhuman in their behavior, but Christianity has drastically declined in the regions where it matters most, the regions which are technologically advanced and possess nuclear energy and weapons. also, in the second post, thjis is sort of what I have argued with him, but perhaps I didn't argue it well enough. I don't know if a moral economy of scale is or isn't a good argument.


bd58a9  No.714523

>>714519

I mean, it's silly to argue that God is not good because if you abandon Christianity so that you don't get eaten by a lion, you get to live rather than die. It's silly to argue you are rewarded if you cheat only because you propagate your genes, but on the other hand you destroy your family, hurt your kids and wife, most probably lose half of your possessions in court. Like, ask that guy, if everybody acted in a way he claims is rewarded by nature, how would our society look like? I'd say it would look like a Mad Max dystopia.


0d1864  No.714527

So, in general, we're talking about the interaction of human morality and the laws of nature. Why does doing good seem to lead naturally to bad outcomes?

Before going on, we should note that various thinkers have seen different fundamental "equilibria" in this respect. For example, Tolstoy (who thought marriage itself was immoral) saw sexual reproduction as a built-in safety valve given by God to the human race. In his view, as long as man had not yet become morally perfect, he would continue to propagate himself, thus giving the next generation another chance to get it right. Eventually, at the end of time, man would overcome all selfish desire and achieve moral perfection. Having achieved his reason for existing, he would then cease to exist. This is an odd and heretical view to say the least, but my reason for pointing it out is to show that what you or I or /pol/ might think about the fundamental laws of nature are not necessarily the whole picture.

Okay, now then.

First, it's not even clear that evolutionary laws do, in fact, favor immorality. At any rate, I don't think you can say that evolution in general favors immorality. You can see this because different animal species have different successful reproductive strategies. Some of these strategies would be considered immoral if pursued by humans, but some would be considered highly moral. If evolution is inherently directed toward favoring immorality, you'd expect to see no instances at all of, for example, animals mating for life. But we do. Therefore… etc.

Second, though, and more basic, is the philosophical approach you have to take to even arrive at a point where it makes sense to ask this question. Humans are not mere animals: we are rational animals. Evolutionary good is definitely a good for humans, but it is not the only or the most important good for us.

For humans, our rational faculties rule over our animal faculties, and our animal faculties are subservient to, and only exist for the sake of, our rational faculties. Therefore, in point of fact, those goods which pertain to our rational nature are far more basic to us as humans, and are far better for us, than goods which merely pertain to our animal nature, including the evolutionary good.

The conclusion is that to commit immorality to gain an evolutionary good, is to incur a harm greater than the good that was sought, because immorality, or sin, is in essence any act that contradicts right reason. So sin actually harms our rational nature, which in us is higher and more important than our animal nature. To pursue an animal good at the cost of a rational good is therefore to suffer a harm greater than the good sought.

So basically, the immoral don't in fact win in this life, but lose.

Aside from that fundamental point, there's also the point that God has not abandoned his servants entirely to the whims of nature and its sometimes cruel laws. Prayers are answered: see the Battle of Lepanto. God does intervene in history, and the entire Old Testament bears witness to this. But, in those (unfortunately not rare) cases where the good Christian man is in fact led to death by his own goodness, he is only following the road first trodden by his Master, who was sinless and yet submitted to suffer and die in a painful and humiliating execution under Rome. (And nowadays, who's in charge of Rome? What does that say about who actually wins in the end, even in this life?)


e71e6b  No.714534

>>714527

Thank you Christanon, You have no idea how much I appreciate the effort you've put into this post. I see it in a better light now. I am brought to tears. I know I am a random anon. But I am telling the truth. Thank you. If you have anymore to say, or others have comments, please write them. I want to read them. God Bless.


cec09e  No.714539

>>714508

Lets be honest here. The 10 commandments and OT in general are a great set of rules for preserving a nation. Jesus' spiritual advice in NT keeps everyone spiritually healthy so you don't have demon possessed freaks running around swinging chains. This + good enough genes produces strong civilizations. Maybe some African males genetically won on the individual level by raping every tribe within ten miles but if the US decided to colonize Africa (or even genocide any roudy ideological or ethnic minority within its own borders for that matter) it certainly could! And the US was founded on Christian principles. Natural selection favors Christianity because civilizations win against non-civilizations.


7f5c65  No.714567

>>714508

>If nature operates under God’s rules, why do they favor the wicked?

They don't. Do you really think all the most evil people out there are enjoying life? They aren't. They're constantly looking behind their back for backstabbers whom they themselves backstabbed, and it's a constant struggle.

In my own experience, moral business owners always do better than immoral ones. Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth the corn.

I go to a locally owned butcher and their business is booming, they sell organic pastured meats and dairy, the employees are talkative and happy, and the owner always greets people.

Compared that to my local supermarket butcher, the employees are miserable, the meat is old, and business is lacking.

Have faith in the promise of God, he will bless you when you do his will.


e71e6b  No.714572

>>714567

but you're mistaking quality of life with reproductive success. they aren't the same thing


74bde1  No.714589

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Maybe not a full answer your friend is looking for. But C.S Lewis does a refutation. Of people who usually use *Instinct* and i guess insert*Evolution* As a sort of *New Moral/Ethics. This may partially help your friend.

*If, Instinct is your only Standard. No, Instinct is to be preferred to one another. Each each Instinct by its own nature will claim to have victory over all the other Instincts, While at the defeat, and bitter resentment of all the rest.*


c529f3  No.714994

File: 97e7002cba1da33⋯.png (35.57 KB, 587x331, 587:331, some mysteries.png)

>>714508

I simply want share this interesting quote which touches on the thread's subject, though only tangentially. It isn't meant as a reply to your question in other words.




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