/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

This is paganism

>>712696

>>712701

And then these same people say Cathodox shit up our board. OP and everyone else actually concerned with these prayers should ignore these posters.

>>712725

First guy’s got a legitimate question, second is a shitposter.

I am sorry that I am going to steal this thread but I am Orthodox and I want to understand the protestant way of thinking so I am going to ask some questions.

Suppose the following scenario. I live in some old kingdom and I need a favor of the king. So I go to the mother of the king, I tell her about my needs, she goes to the king, her son and the king does what I need. My question is this: who is saving me: the king or the kings mother? (My answer is both.)

Now, I understand that some (all?) protestants do not think the relations between Virgin Mary and the Christ are analogous to the my example with the king and his mother. I am not going to argue. My question is this: suppose (even if only for a moment) that my example is applicable to Virgin Mary her Son. If this is so, then do you think that in this case it will be ok to say the prayer "O Most Holy Theotokos, Have Mercy on Me"? If not, then why not?

My final question is this: does the Bible say that my example is not applicable to Virgin Mary and her Son? If your answer is 'Yes', then can you give me some references? (Please don't shower me with tons of citations, just give me what you think will be the clearest Biblical evidence in my view, not in your view.) If, on the other hand, your answer is 'No', then does this mean you deny the prayers to the Mary not because you are certain that this is bad, but rather because you are not certain that Mary has the ability to help?

Do you ask living people to pray for you? Why don't you do the same with those who are now with Christ in the heavens?

>>712727

To me it seems unnecessary. Are we not able to come to Christ directly, with faith like children?

>>712727

Your example seems like the king is some arrogant guy who won't listen to you, only to the people close to him, so that to reach him you need to ask his mother first. Not Jesus at all.

>>712696

>>712665

Interestingly I was thinking something on similar lines: in the various litany like loreto, only titles for God are asked "have mercy on me" whereas all titles for Mary are "pray for us" . Is it theologically acceptable to ask Theotokos to have mercy?

>>712727

>If not, then why not?

In your example the scenarios are not analogous. If I am asking the queen mother to speak to her son for me, even if it is to ask for mercy on my behalf, I am not going to ask her to have mercy on me, because mercy is not hers to give.

>does the Bible say that my example is not applicable to Virgin Mary and her Son?

Well, it does not say it is applicable, which is enough, but Mary holds no authority in heaven because she is the mother of Jesus Christ, not God the Son. He was king long before she was created.

>Why don't you do the same with those who are now with Christ in the heavens?

If it were so little, it would be the grave sin of necromancy, and we are forbidden to commune with the dead. However, the practice of the Cathodox is much more, as their devotion shows they do not merely ask for prayers, but pray to the saints themselves on account of an innate power which is falsely believed to subsist in them. The concept of "patron saints" betrays this fact. I recall an instance where my Roman Catholic mother was helping her Roman Catholic brother move, and they sought out the statue of some saint to bury in his yard for help in the sale or something. How is this superstition different from pagan worship of their patron gods?

>>712739

>is it theologically acceptable to ask the Theotokos to have mercy?

You yourself can have mercy, can you not?

>>712769

>Mary is mother of Jesus and Jesus is the same person as God the Son, therefore, Mary is mother of God the Son, incarnated

Of course, but He did not cease to have that divine nature, so inasmuch as Christ is God, she does not relate to Him as mother.

>She has found grace with God, not authority

Then why should we go to her instead of He who alone can set us free?

>St. martyr Boniface of Tarsus has been a drinker so naturally people suffering from alcoholism or drugs will turn to him

And that's idolatry. They're turning to him for help instead of Jesus, they're setting him up as a false idol

>>712777

>inasmuch as Christ is God, she does not relate to Him as mother

The human mothers provide humanity to their sons, they, however, are not mothers of bodies and souls. They are mothers of persons. Mary is mother of the Christ, there are no reservations about this in the Bible. If, however, we reject that the one person of Christ is at once God and human, we fall into the error of speaking of two sons. We must not divide the one Lord Jesus Christ into two Sons. The Scripture has not said that the Word united to himself the person of man, but that the Word was made flesh. This expression, however, “the Word was made flesh,” can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself humanity, he remained God.

We do not hesitate to call the holy Virgin Theotokos, not in the sense that the divine nature of the Word took its origin from the holy Virgin, but in the sense that he took his holy body, gifted with a rational soul, from her. Yet, because the Word is hypostatically united to this body, one can say that the Word was truly born according to the flesh.

>And that's idolatry. They're turning to him for help instead of Jesus, they're setting him up as a false idol

Ok, I am trying to understand this. What is the definition of idolatry? For example when we ask the prayers of living people is this idolatry? (I am not arguing here. I want to know how you interpret the word "idolatry".)

Every time you pray the Rosary a protestant cries.

Reminder to pray the Rosary every day

>>712696

I mean you could take the prayer advice of a guy who managed to get so close to God that the Holy spirit shone from him and performed miracles on a daily basis or you could not.

>>713057

yeah, what of it? sure most of us call it the angelic salutation, but it is practically the same prayer, so what are you trying to say?

Thank you for sharing the prayer rule of a righteous man - it has already helped me.

>>713049

Im protestant and I learned the rosary when I was 14 and use to do it daily. But remember all protestants are crazy and hateful ;) They are the literal minority controlling this board and silencing others! alright sorry sorry this probably isnt the right moment for sarcasm..

>>713057

>Ortholarper

>>713057

Yes ed, "hail Mary" is a coin prayer for cathodic despite differences about teachings about Mary

>>722445

Common prayer

I hate phoneposting

With that being said, St. Seraphim's opinion was, well, opinion. There is already a at of prayers for the morning and night. Though it, as basically every prayer includes "our father" and Nicene creed anyways

>>722441

Same except what was up with me is I originally was interested in Catholicism > protestantism. I use to do the rosary daily and read this book whoms name I forgot on catholic theology. Now I've settled for fence riding denomination of Lutheran still plan on trying out a Saturday evening mass at local catholic church though and maybe keeping with that so I celebrate Sabath and Lords day.

>>712701

Meanwhile in early Christian

John Ryland’s Papyrus:

Beneath your compassion

we take refuge, Theotokos.

Our petitions do not despise in time of trouble,

but from dangers ransom us,

Only Holy, Only Blessed

3rd Century Letter [5]

Egypt, Circa AD 250

3rd Century Papyrus:

As we sing to Father Son and Holy Spirit, may all the powers join with us to say Amen. To the only giver of all good things be power and praise. Amen.

Probably Egyptian, 3rd Century AD hymn [4]

Origen of Alexandria:

Now supplication and plea and thanksgiving may be offered to people without impropriety. Two of them, namely pleading and thanksgiving, might be offered not only to saints but to people alone in general, whereas supplication should be offered to saints alone, should there be found a Paul or a Peter, who may benefit us and make us worthy to attain authority for the forgiveness of sins.

On Prayer, 14.6 [3]

Alexandria, Circa AD 253

St. Hippolytus of Rome:

Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him.

Commentary on Daniel, 30.1[2]

Rome, Circa AD 202-211

>>712726

First guy is a shitposter also.

>>722441

This is actually me the one you are claiming attacks Catholics and orthodox

>>722556

>>722562

Opps wrong qoutes >>722447

Polite sage

>>712746

>Patron saints

You hit the nail on the head.

They believe each saint has special unique powers, like how the pagan gods before them had special unique powers.

If they were only asking saints to pray for them in heaven (because saints are righteous)why do they have these attached patronistic powers?

>praying to a human

>>722728

>not asking your fellow Christians to beseech god

The fact we’ve been over this on this thread alone means this was bait, in which case shame on me.

>>722728

the prayer of the righteous availeth much

>>722744

>ignoring Jesus' complete divinity as an excuse to pray to any human

>>712821

More honorable than the cherubim

and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim

without defilement you gave birth to God The Word

True Theotokos we magnify you

>>712850

Well that is a point

>>722728

Nice bait, but jesus was the god-man.

Not half and half, but whole and whole

>>733154

The bear does not have a halo, so no.

>>712696

>>712701

this

Bump for the brothers struggling against porn