/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>706028

<as opposed to

How did you find Christ my Catholic and or Orthodox friend?

>>706022

So does any actual worship happen at these things or is it just Pope Anderson talking about his pet peeves for 60 minutes?

>>706040

They actually do have prayers. The services are about an hour to an hour and a half long. It’s just that the sermon takes up most of that time

>>706040

There's hymns at the beginning for about 30 minutes, and they pray

>>706033

…as opposed to an intense, living, liturgical and sacramental experience that can't be found anywhere else on earth. At least not for me. Vid related.

Without Orthodoxy I would never be Christian.

>>706033

He found me.

Was agnostic but would read the scriptures and saints just out of curiosity. Then a friend told me he was orthodox, and was adamant that I visit a local orthodox church with him; I was reluctant but went just to appease him. The moment I entered and heard the solemn chanting, saw the icons and people prostrating on the ground, I experienced something sacred, it transformed me instantly, literally felt a divine presence there. Absolutely nothing like it in any previous protestant "church" I visited.

>>706033

Mr. Anderson came to my house and told me if I believe the 1611 unaltered king james bible, I will be saved. Except for when i'm homosexual, catholic, or take the Epistle of James serious. Since then I have to be a "reprobate"

>>706045

I've noticed this trend among orthodox. It all "feels so right that it can't be wrong".

>>706042

Do they also eat the flesh and blood of Christ, as our Lord instructed us in the Bible? Do they fast, as mentioned endless times in the Bible?

>>706060

>>706062

I've just talked to a lot of people who claim the Holy Spirit tells them to do something that's usually completely opposite of what scripture says. There's a lot of things that give you a nice feeling without necessarily being true. We are told in John 4 to worship in spirit AND in truth, thus there is some way to worship in spirit but not in truth. Cults like LDS and WMSCOG often build very beautiful temples and such to give people this "divine" feeling rather than an intellectual understanding of scripture.

>>706045

Translation: 'If there's no idol for me to worship or no pagan ritual for me to participate in, I don't want anything to do with it'

>>706061

>yeah like, this totally happened, like…in the 1300s or something lmao

Ah, strip mall theology…

>>706079

it's very appropriate to have fast-food theology established between fast-food joints.

>>706060

>Do they also eat the flesh and blood of Christ, as our Lord instructed us in the Bible?

No they don’t. You know they don’t

>Do they fast, as mentioned endless times in the Bible?

They apparently do, but they don’t have regulated fasts like lent or fasts on Friday, as they have a view that casting is only done privately. I don’t have the sermon link but I remember hearing that

>>706076

>having an experiential conversion, the sense of being born again is not foreign or heretical to protestant sects, like the baptists. In fact all that is spiritually revealed comes from the Divine, and isn't simply a function of reading a text and presupposing it's true. So simply having such an experience is not dubious or fake, even if sometimes it leads people to error.

First of all, I don't yolk myself with "all protestants", and I never said your feeling was dubious or fake, just saying a lot of times it is.

>Did I make any such claims?

Did I claim you did?

>>706093

>Did I claim you did?

Strongly implied that I was entertaining a dangerous or unreliable thing because I was converted via experience in a Church.

Anyway the idea that conversion should be something predominately "intellectual" is not even scriptural. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life…" this suggest people can recognize the truth like we recognize our parent's voice, which is experiential, not intellectual or logical.

And further: " Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." comes to mind, spiritual understanding is of the Spirit not of a "letter that killeth"… And also "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" and "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Give an atheist the biggest brain in the universe and the scriptures would still be hidden to him unless the Spirit opened his eyes. This is what happened to Paul, he didn't read the scripture and then convert/transform, he converted and then understood how to read the scripture.

>>706094

>Strongly implied that I was entertaining a dangerous or unreliable thing because I was converted via experience in a Church.

This inasmuch is pretty true, you can "experience" things that are false. You don't agree? Why do people join cults? Even in the Bible people in vain worship the Lord many times and are rebuked. Pentecostals today are most commonly known for this, embed related. Surely these people are "feeling" something.

>Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for a doctrine the commandments of men.

>Anyway the idea that conversion should be something predominately "intellectual" is not even scriptural

Belief is a choice, although it's natural to believe in God, it's our own choices to follow God's path to salvation that he laid out for us. We must hear the Word of God, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We believe, we repent, confess our faith in Jesus and be baptized. None of that requires some supernatural experience, just like following your earthly father doesn't require one, it's just natural of you rationally. What's NOT scriptural is saying that God just chooses random people to come to him.

>>706057

Yeah because that's how Christianity suppose to work, you must feel it in your heart to realize it. Death cult members like Andersonites cannot understand that because their target group are mentally unstable people who are easy to manipulate with nice words. I just hope we won't witness another mass suicide like in the past.

>>706096

>This inasmuch is pretty true, you can "experience" things that are false.

You can interpret experiences falsely just as much as you can interpret scripture falsely.

> We must hear the Word of God, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

To recognize his voice you must have already experienced it or know it somehow. You can't recognize something that is alien to you.

>None of that requires some supernatural experience,

Disagree 100%, all conversion, if authentic, is supernatural. It doesn't mean it's all the same, but it's not a materialistic-logical, 1+1 = 2 sort of thing.

> just like following your earthly father doesn't require one, it's just natural of you rationally.

God is not earthly. The truths of the bible come by inspiration, not by deduction. To recognize these things you have to be "of the spirit" already.

>What's NOT scriptural is saying that God just chooses random people to come to him.

Nothing God does or chooses is random. Discounting all spiritual experience as unreliable or dubious in favor of "scholasticism" or whatever youre pushing is ludicrous.

>>706102

Disagree with all, none of this is scriptural. You can easily have a rational understanding of biblical truths to follow God's law.

>>706104

"Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven"

Even being face to face with Christ in the flesh won't "logically" reveal his divinity to you. How much less will reading about him thousands of years later?

>You can easily have a rational understanding of biblical truths to follow God's law.

Yes, mere rational understanding, which is a shadow of actual faith.

>>706104

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness…

…But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

>>706106

In the 1st century and earlier, miracles were used to confirm the teachings of the gospel. Today we don't have that anymore because we have the Bible and don't need it anymore. I think faith IS a rational understanding of the truth of the Bible, which comes naturally by hearing the word.

>>706108

You don't understand, even seeing miracles wasn't enough to convince many people (including the apostles) of Christ's divinity to God. A prophet can work miracles by the power of God, a black magician can work illusions and make you think they are miracles, it doesn't mean he is God incarnate because someone does miracles.

The recognition of Christ as Lord and God is not something merely "natural" or "rational" you do by reading scripture, because it's not a natural or rational historical event, there's nothing like it ever and it defies all understanding that the Infinite became Finite.

Again: "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven"

>>706109

>because it's not a natural or rational historical event

Actually…

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm

>>706107

To me this is just saying how fallible pride of man is, and the lack of understanding of the word is explained earlier.

>When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

>But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

>Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

>He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

>But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

>>706109

So if it's not an intellectual understanding, which I think the Bible is the ONLY entirely rational worldview, what then brings true faith? There are faithful, but faithfully WRONG muslims, same with Mormons, etc. They may even receive visions from a certain angel of light that they think is God. You might "feel" things like pentecostals do or just have the "Holy Spirit" tell you that you need to get out of your marriage. Most people on drugs certainly get special feelings! True faith is following the word of God and walking among God, and I know many faithful people who never experienced anything divine.

>>706118

>and I know many faithful people who never experienced anything divine.

Then they think faith is a good idea, something they ought to have, and perhaps one day they will. We must work on it diligently.

>>706133

In what way do they not have faith? myself included

>>706142

>In what way do they not have faith? myself included

they've never experienced what they believe in, they haven't been born of the Spirit (yet) and so what they have is a mental sort of faith, by their own admission something at the level of human rationality (which is on the level of the flesh and human power, not Spirit). Faith is not a historical argument that you can strap articles to and nod in agreement with, that sort of faith is fine for mundane matters, but not transcendental matters. This is why Paul said our teachings appear as "foolishness" to the greeks, not because they are irrational (far from it) but because they operated predominately at the level of rationality, deductive reasoning and argumentation.

Christ said, "Unless you become like children, you will not see the kingdom of God…" And again He says: "Unless a person is born of the water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God; for that which is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit.' It is clearly shown in the Bible that the "natural" or rational man does not conceive of the Spirit of God by the powers of his rational faculties, but by something other than himself.

But in time they might have spiritual faith once Christ is formed in them, as Paul says, "my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!" This is not something conceptual, but more than that, something experienced and lived and not graspable by the flesh or the powers of logic.

>>706155

Obeying God's law is walking in the Spirit with God. We don't "conceive" the Holy Spirit at all, if that's what you're claiming. The word is easily grasped by logic and I would say almost every Christian hasn't experienced anything supernatural. I believe Children are more rational than adults, adults are often brainwashed into hatred of God such that they cannot understand the scripture. But to a child, it is easy, since God is like unto our earthly father in terms of our relationship. He forgives as long as we do not rebuke him, and we obey our father for our own good. There's nothing supernatural about believing like a child in faith and being born of the Spirit is just our act of baptism and following the word that gives us communion with the Lord.

>>706162

>Obeying God's law is walking in the Spirit with God.

And this is done by the power of God acting in us, not by our faculties or effort, as long as you take this to be your own effort and rationalizing then your faith is your own creation, and the Spirit is not born in you.

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

> The word is easily grasped by logic and I would say almost every Christian hasn't experienced anything supernatural.

To grasp is not the same as to accept.

And to accept is not the same as to be transformed and born again.

>I believe Children are more rational than adults, adults are often brainwashed into hatred of God such that they cannot understand the scripture. But to a child, it is easy, since God is like unto our earthly father in terms of our relationship.

This is false since Children lack the ability to critique and self-reflect as far as adults can; children are extremely susceptible to arguments from authority, hence they can become buddhist, muslim, or atheist, believe in santa claus or the easter bunny as long as an authority figure (teacher/parent/TV) says so convincingly. This is not proof of their rationality but proof of their ability to believe on authority, which is a type of fallacy in itself.

>There's nothing supernatural about believing like a child in faith and being born of the Spirit is just our act of baptism and following the word that gives us communion with the Lord.

If there's nothing supernatural about your faith then it's not salvific.

>>706169

>"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Clearly talking about salvation as the gift, not faith

>To grasp is not the same as to accept.

Okay, it's easy to accept as well. If I accept it am I then transformed and born again? You said I had to have something supernatural happen

>This is false since Children lack the ability to critique and self-reflect as far as adults can; children are extremely susceptible to arguments from authority, hence they can become buddhist, muslim, or atheist, believe in santa claus or the easter bunny as long as an authority figure (teacher/parent/TV) says so convincingly. This is not proof of their rationality but proof of their ability to believe on authority, which is a type of fallacy in itself.

Most adults can't self-reflect either and fall into the exact same stuff. Children are much more open minded and rational.

>If there's nothing supernatural about your faith then it's not salvific.

Why not?

>30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

>31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

>He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

>And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

>>706170

>Clearly talking about salvation as the gift, not faith

It's talking about grace coming to man, and building faith in them and saving them and all of this operation is the work of God. And it is supernatural, and not merely the power of man's mind making a decision.

> If I accept it am I then transformed and born again? You said I had to have something supernatural happen

Accepting is the start.

>Most adults can't self-reflect either and fall into the exact same stuff. Children are much more open minded and rational.

A child will believe almost anything you tell them, that is definitely open minded but that is not rational. Adults are far more critical and require evidence, even the dim and silly adults.

>>If there's nothing supernatural about your faith then it's not salvific.

>>Why not?

because the content of faith is supernatural not natural, and faith is the work of God in man, not the product of man's generation in himself.

But tell me how did you logically come to your faith, how does logic prove a statement is inspired by God? And remember appeal to authority is a fallacy in formal logic, just because person X claims something doesn't mean it is true, else you would become a Muslim or Hindu just as easily as Christian, just as easily as a Child would if his parents told him to.

>>706172

>It's talking about grace coming to man

Correct

>building faith in them

Incorrect, faith is natural upon hearing the word of God. Those who hear the word of God and believeth not have hardened their hearts.

>Adults are far more critical and require evidence, even the dim and silly adults.

This is just not true, you must not talk to a lot of people or you yourself aren't critical at all.

>because the content of faith is supernatural not natural, and faith is the work of God in man, not the product of man's generation in himself.

No scripture says that only through some supernatural conversion can you have faith. Only through Jesus and the work of God can you be saved. Tell me about this "supernatural conversion" that you have to have, does God just choose random people? What is it like? Where can I find it in scripture?

>But tell me how did you logically come to your faith, how does logic prove a statement is inspired by God? And remember appeal to authority is a fallacy in formal logic, just because person X claims something doesn't mean it is true, else you would become a Muslim or Hindu just as easily as Christian, just as easily as a Child would if his parents told him to.

I read the King James Bible and know it to be the only explanation of the world without flaw, and know God's law to be perfect. I walk with God in Spirit through reading and following his word after confessing with my mouth Jesus and being baptized.

>>706180

>This is just not true, you must not talk to a lot of people or you yourself aren't critical at all.

I teach kids, I can make them believe anything without much effort. Tricking adults is harder. Stop this nonsense.

> Only through Jesus and the work of God can you be saved.

This is supernatural, not natural, and not the doing of man or his faculties.

>I read the King James Bible and know it to be the only explanation of the world without flaw,

How do you know this? Do you know everything about the world and it matches all you know perfectly? Did you inherently know God incarnated as a 1st century jew and the KJV confirmed it? Did it teach you anything new? If it taught you something new, how did you confirm it logically, i.e no circularity, no appeal to authority, go for it….show us the logic. A -> B - C therefore D.

>and know God's law to be perfect. I walk with God in Spirit through reading and following his word after confessing with my mouth Jesus and being baptized.

And muslims and mormons and JWs say the same thing about their scriptures but that isn't how logic works, you can't prove something by saying "I just know it". demonstrate it. Go for it. You have no experience or spiritual discernment, no nothing, you simply read something and it sounds good to you. Okay.

You've basically given me the equivalent of "it feels right so I accept it".

Waiting for this "logic". Go for it.

>>706189

>Tricking adults is harder

No, it's not. If it was so many wouldn't believe garbage like the 9/11 official story etc. If it's on TV adults will believe it.

>This is supernatural, not natural, and not the doing of man or his faculties.

Correct, God's work is supernatural and not of man. Ephesians 2:9.

>How do you know this? Do you know everything about the world and it matches all you know perfectly? Did you inherently know God incarnated as a 1st century jew and the KJV confirmed it? Did it teach you anything new? If it taught you something new, how did you confirm it logically, i.e no circularity, no appeal to authority, go for it….show us the logic. A -> B - C therefore D.

I know about modern geopolitics for example war in Syria, war in Iraq, central banking cabal, islam, catholicism, veganism, premillenialist dispensationalism, pseudointellectual atheism etc. All of this is prophesied in the new testament. I see nature and natural laws of our biology accurately described that people today can't get right. It doesn't take a genius to understand the biblical truths because something so complex as the world and the Bible aligning perfectly could not be a coincidence. Show me another world view that has no flaws if you can find one, it doesn't exist. Walking with God in Spirit through his word produces fruits that are easy to see in my own life, as with each law of God has universally all throughout history. Everyone in the world believes in God naturally as we all have our earthly father, to hear the word and reject it is only possible with hatred.

>And muslims and mormons and JWs

And I can disprove every one of them, because they are false. It's very easy, but you can't with the Bible. If you want me to go into detail I can, same with any cult. Question for you though, do you think it's possible for a mormon or a muslim or a JW to be faithful, if they obviously don't have a supernatural conviction? What did God mean when he said worship in spirit and in truth, if only he can show you what the truth is to begin with?

Again how does one receive this supernatural conviction? Is it entirely random? Why does nobody in my Church receive it?

>>706194

>tricking adults is harder than tricking little kids

>little kids are just so rational and clever

kids are conditioned to believe and accept what authorities teach them, it's only as they grow up as they start questioning and thinking for themselves. The fact that some adults remain gullible and uninformed is not surprising, some kids never develop and mature properly.

>Correct, God's work is supernatural and not of man

Hence why actual saving faith is something spiritual an not merely deductive-rational, that man generates like he generates a math theorem.

> I see nature and natural laws of our biology accurately described that people today can't get right.

Do you see people living 900+ years or people rising from the dead, walking on water or summoning plagues of locusts in your day to day life? What made you think the bible is all true? Where's the logic? Just because it has somethings right doesn't mean it's all right. Where is the complete proof of its total truth?

>It doesn't take a genius to understand the biblical truths because something so complex as the world and the Bible aligning perfectly could not be a coincidence.

Give a specific examples of this perfect alignment and how do you know it's true? What if you're misunderstanding the world/politics/biology and the bible matches this misunderstanding? You haven't said anything specific or given any logical proof. Saying "it matches my view of the world" means nothing, a feminist will say feminism matches her view of the world, a marxist will say marxism matches his view of the world. SO?

What made you think the bible is all true? Where's the logic? Just because it has somethings right doesn't mean it's all right. Where is the complete proof of its total truth?

>Everyone in the world believes in God naturally as we all have our earthly father, to hear the word and reject it is only possible with hatred.

Believing in God as an unmoved mover, or creator is one thing. Accepting that he became a certain person in history, or spoke through certain people and made certain declarations about how we should behave is another. Substantiate these things using logic. You havent proved even 1 thing yet logically. What made you think the bible is all true? Where's the logic? Just because it has somethings right doesn't mean it's all right. Where is the complete proof of its total truth?

>>706274

Anderson appears to be saying they don't do the "Lord's Supper" in the church, but at homes instead.

I'm pretty sure they still don't believe it's the flesh and blood of Christ, just a sign and remembrance.

>>706047

>or take the epistle of James seriously

Kek

>>706032

Based

Kek have all sola scriptira believers not received an epiphany of Christ that granted them faith? Explains a lot really.