/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Watch this and prepare to have the shit scared out of you. Skip to 28 minutes if you just want to get to the description of Hell.

http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/The%20River%20Of%20Fire%20-%20Doctor%20Alexandre%20Kalomiros.pdf

>>704106

>most meme monastery

>>704097

http://silouanthompson.net/2008/08/river-of-god/

https://frted.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/the-fathers-on-hell/ (note this is incomplete though)

And you can also read this: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/09/11/permit-me-to-hope-2/

>>704119

Also there's this for a more "fire and brimstone" kind of view:

http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2013/01/chrysostom-on-hell-and-eternity/

http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2013/05/chrysostom-on-hell-and-eternity-ii/

However, things do not remain bleak. See the Paschal Homily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_Homily

>>704117

The Dimond Brothers are the foremost biblical scholars of our time.

>>704097

Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? - Hans Urs Von Balthasar (Catholic)

Christ the Conqueror of Hell - Hilarion Alfeyev (Orthodox)

The idea that hell is indeed eternal and will consist of uninterrupted and intense suffering is completely horrifying.

Christians are supposed to be "loving", "the religion of love" and all that, but most of them seem far too comfortable with the idea of other people going to hell for eternity.

I know of non-denominational Protestant guy, he has a channel on Youtube, he's one of those hyper-spiritual "deliverance ministry" guys. He strikes me as a genuinely loving person, and he says in one of the videos that he cared so much about people he was praying about that he asked God if he could send him to hell instead of them.

This strikes me as a truly loving Christianity.

I still find the idea of hell messed up though. Why even have children if they of their descendants might end up in hell? If I have a child there is a high probability that they or their descendants will go to hell, some of them at least. It would be better if they were never born.

>>704290

To deny the natural urge to create a free spirit is in my view anti-Christ. We are called to be like Christ, which means we are called to be like God for we are created in his Image. If God has a nature of creating men who are free, then is it not the calling of every Christian to be fruitful and multiply, to create like God has? Some will fall, but they can always come back up.

>>704291

Yes.

When my child or my child's descendant is in hell, because he "freely" and foolishly chose to commit adultery, steal or commit some other "sin" and thereby damned himself, choosing the temporal good of sinful sex or stolen goods instead of choosing the Supreme Good, when this child or descendant of mine is in hell, suffering intense physical and spiritual pain, screaming in pain as the eternal fire consumes him and demons torture him, he will think "I'm glad my father chose to have me. How blessed it was that he chose to bring forth a new life. How good it is that he followed the injunction to be fruitful and multiply. How good it is that I was born and am now in hell, suffering eternal and indescribable anguish."

It doesn't make sense. Even if some of my children end up in heaven, their bliss will not make up for the suffering of the ones in hell. It doesn't make sense. It's too horrifying.

>>704290

Because its a materialized version of hell intended for literal punishment. I was there too, though frankly I was never terrified by it or had any problems with it. My general stance was "I'm a retard and maybe I am missing something". Then I got a bit deeper into theology and questions were answered by themselves, while I was searching on different topic (and to be fair, such randomness happened numerous times in my life. This basically convinced me to always have hope in God). When you realize that Heaven and Hell are about personal relationship with God as it is in Orthodoxy

>>704115

>>704117

then it all makes perfect sense (at least for me). While there are Fathers and Bishops supporting apocatastasis, in my opinion, damnation its inevitably tied to humans having free will. You cannot force humans to love someone by force. There will be someone who will hate God, hate His presence, Hate the fact that he is His icon and made in his Image and Likeness

This is the third time I had to delete my post due to tags and grammatical errors. I'm not a sharpest knife in the kitchen

>>704296

You missed my point: it would have been easier and better for God to never had made man, then we could not fall. But God did, and made us to do the same as he had. For we are made in his image. You're getting hung up on the least important part of my post.

>>704297

It's allright. I understood your post just fine.

I don't know. There are people who have had visions of hell, and it looks quite literal, quite material. An actual place. Actual fire, demons and all that.

Padre Pio once said to some guy that his father was in hell, because he was sexually immoral in his life. And he said to a woman that all her three sons were in hell, because she was too permissive. Some guy said he didn't believe in hell, and Padre Pio said: "You'll believe in it when you get there."

It doesn't make sense. Three kids in hell, eternally, because their mother didn't teach them proper morals.

I don't know. I believe in God. I believe in miracles, in exorcisms, it's all real, people are silly who think these things can be "scientifically explained". But hell, haha, c'mon guys. What a horrifying thing for it to be real.

>>704298

Whatever. What you say sounds like a bunch of cute, empty theologizing.

The fact of *one soul* having to spend eternity in hell makes the whole existence of the universe not worth it.

>>704299

Well, I'm Orthodox, so I dont really consider his opinions, though in general, in Catholicism I think that opinion of a person, saint or not, is not binding and may not be accurate.

As for the visions, well, in most cases generally it depends on the individual and his cultural upbringing.

There's all these theologians out there who try to make the idea of hell something less literal, less barbaric, something more abstract. Guys like C.S. Lewis, or even some Church Fathers.

And then you get saints like Padre Pio who are like "Nope, it's an actual place, and you go there because of sins like adultery and stealing."

So basically, yes, eternal punishment. God as the fiercely angry, sadistic universal dictator. Stealing, lying, gluttony, adultery, all the naughty little slips of His incorrigibly sinful children, punished not with a light reprimand like a loving Father, but with ETERNAL FIRE AND SUFFERING.

Doesn't make sense.

>>704290

>>704296

>>704299

>>704300

>>704302

Please, if you're here for actual discussion, discuss. If you're here for reddit posting, leave. There are at least three-four links addressing this issue already.

>>704303

I'm discussing the issue with more seriousness than you. If you take issue with my "reddit spacing", well, that's completely irrelevant.

How about providing an actual good reply to the questions I'm asking.

>>704300

The problem then lies not in what's the point of reproduction but in what is the point in believing in God. Why would a just God create us just to have us suffer? I do not think your heart is in the right place, but for that answer refer to the Book of Job.

The idea that he'll is an ETERNAL punishment seems ridiculous. Any sort of assertion on what it is should be treated as speculation. All we really know is it is the worst possible state, and we willingly choose to go there ignorant of it.

>>704304

Its not about spacing but posts themselves, such as:

>God as the fiercely angry, sadistic universal dictator.

And there are already answers with links we've shown. And there are people even in Catholicism like Bishop Barron. Someone's opinion is not binding, not a dogma, not a final verdict, nor 100% accurate.

>>704305

The more "small o" orthodox you go, whether in Catholicism, in Protestantism or even, I believe in Orthodoxy, the more do theologians and saints seem to be agree that hell is real. Many of them will say that is indeed quite literal, and that it is indeed eternal.

I'm just trying to discuss the doctrine openly. Thanks for calling into question the state of my heart. Yes, I must be a vile heretic for trying to make sense of hell.

I believe in God. Because of the evidences. Evidences like miracles and exorcisms. I'm not stupid. I'm perfectly aware of how the scientific method works, and that to be some kind of Kantian deist is seen as more elegant than someone who believes in Christ's ressurrection in 2018.

I'm suppose I'm being a bad boy in saying that I don't see how an eternal hell is fair. And no one really seems to have good answer for this one.

If someone ends up in hell it would be better if they had never been born. Why then should we so eagerly make kids? No one seems to be able to answer this satisfactorily.

I'm basically saying that come on. Hell is really, really, really bad by all accounts.

So bad that when the Mother of God showed hell to the three kids in that famous vision, she only showed it for a few seconds.

And yet people who go there will be there for ETERNITY.

Now let's be realistic. Suppose I have five kids. Christian home. Raised in the church. Statistically, how many such kids tend to remain Christians in a state of grace until they die? Just do the freaking math.

>>704308

There is no discussion if you refuse to listen. The idea of hell as eternal torment is contentious between all the church fathers and saints, but the idea of hell existing is agreed (excepting a few annihilationists). I call into question your faith only because the logical extrapolation of your question demands it. I do not know you, but I merely opine from what I have that you do not have the heart to read Job and come away righteously. If you refuse to understand this, there is no point in arguing with you.

>>704308

So you are saying that saints like Maximus the Confessor, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Syria, Clement of Alexandria, Macarius the Great, Basil the Great or modern theologians, like Hilarion Alfeyev, who even supports literal bans on non-Christians and criticizes Anglicans for their faggotry, John Romanides and so on and so forth, arent orthodox enough?

The answer is no. It is just most widespread version amongst normies. Because people are retarded and it is easier for them to materialize everything, imagine hell as a massive caudron, imagine angels as humans with fluffy wings. Most priests and bishops I personally know object such notion.

So stop coming up with some asspulls.

>>704311

Try to speak less like an eremite and more like a human being.

I'm asking you what's the point of having five children if there is a high probability that at least one of them will end up in hell.

What is so wicked about remaining childless when you take that into consideration. And what is so noble about having children when many of these children and their descendants will certainly end up in hel.

>>704312

Do you think it is credulous to believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus, too?

And isn't it agreed upon by all Christians that we will all resurrect physically in the last days, both the wicked and the righteous?

And if we will have new physical bodies, will we not occupy a space with these bodies, much as we live here on physical earth right now?

I realize that it sounds more sophisticated to spiritualize heaven and hell, but it feels like a cop out to me.

>>704313

And I have told you, because it is in our God-like nature to create. When you question this, you question the nature of God.

>>704316

>And I have told you, because it is in our God-like nature to create.

This is just some ready-made theological answer that you learned to recite.

>>704315

>Do you think it is credulous to believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus, too?

No and you know why? Because unlike hell, its actual dogma by the church.

>And if we will have new physical bodies, will we not occupy a space with these bodies, much as we live here on physical earth right now?

This is literally addressed in quotes in given links. Even muttposter >>704164 noticed this. Why cannot you simply stop complaining and read the bloody links given?

>>704317

Does it matter? You are not so clever that you could overcome "brainwashing"? Originality and novelty do not matter: is it True, right, and good? Why is it wrong? Enlighten me.

>>704319

Hey, this right here ~~> >>704164 is an actually great point.

In fact, I believe our moral corruption can show through in our physical bodies even in our present life.

And looking at things from this perspective, sainthood and damnation are very much self-chosen states.

It's very interesting to think about it from this perspective, and makes the idea of hell seem less absurd to me.

>>704321

Further confirming that all this nonsense could have been avoided, if you would stop complaining and read the books and links given.

>>704320

I'm not a wiseman. I'm a nobody. Of course it is good, noble and natural to have children, and wicked to be "against life" and all that.

But I have always had the question at the back of my mind: "Sure, it's good and godly to have a family, but what if the children end up in hell."

>>704322

Hahaha you stuffy old man. It's fun to discuss this stuff. Take yourself less seriously.

I'm checking out the links now.

>>704106

I love the runescape music in mhfm videos, hardcore stuff

>>704097

The way I see it, most people try to fill the hole in their hearts with money, materialism, and fleeting pleasures, but without God they'll never be fullfilled and content, hell is when everything they used to fill that void has been taken away from them and they've also rejected God, they'll never be happy because what they want is impossible

>>704296

tigga christ died for our sins. even if your kids winnie the pooh up and have sinful sex or steal they can always be forgiven. there is hope for all. having a kid and expecting them to not sin is ludicrous. as the parent it's your job to tell them who God is and to get them to believe and repent

>>704440

Exactly. As St. Aquinas reasons, this is exactly why those in Heaven will not actually feel any remorse for those in Hell, the only people in Hell are those whom truly deserve Hell. Christ is a righteous judge.

>>704309

>state of grace

so if grandpa over here is laying on his death bed and a hot nurse comes in and he has a lustful thought 1 second before he dies he is damned?

>>704442

There's a difference between having a thought and entertaining a thought. Jesus was clear about sins that are of grave matter and will bar someone from the kingdom of heaven. Someone who has spent their life fighting temptation and growing in holiness is not going to be as susceptible to demonic temptation where as people who wait until it's too late are at the mercy of God as all hell will try to drag them down at the hour of death

ty everyone for sharing your thoughts and resources. I appreciate it

I think Rick Wiles does a great job describing Hell and the Lake of Fire in his recent podcast

>>704351

>I love the runescape music in mhfm videos,

Is that where it's from? I've been wondering where they get that creepy music from for ages. Do you know the specific track?

I like Frederica Matthewes-Green's view

"First of all, hell is not a place. If you’re separated from your body and exist only as a spirit, you don’t take up any room. In the Hebrew Scriptures all the dead, righteous and unrighteous, abide in Sheol (the Greek Scriptures translated it "Hades"). It is a non-physical realm where the souls of all the departed await the Last Judgment. … How can this be? Because the real answer to the "where" question is "in the presence of God." Nothing exists outside God, making the concept of "separation from God" only a handy metaphor. "Whither shall I flee from thy presence? … If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there" (Psalm 139:7-8). In this life, we perceive that presence pulsing through all material Creation. In the next life that materiality will be dissolved, and we’ll be irradiated by the living energy that sustains the universe."

http://ww1.antiochian.org/node/18270

>>704487

I honestly don't know man, it just sounds kind of dungeon synthy

>>704300

Go away, Satan.

>>704097

>Is there any reading I should do on this topic?

The Bible is sufficient enough, but you can watch testimonies

>>714196

Necromancy is sin. Pooh off and stop bumping dead threads