/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>702791

Prots and Orthodox all believe that schism and divorce is acceptable, it makes sense I guess

Should we have an interdenominational debate general and concentrate all the shitflinging there? This is getting worse than consolewars on /v/.

At least we don't harbor pedophiles

>>702795

This isn't a debate thread, it's a friendship thread but some well mannered debate is acceptable

>>702792

>>702797

>At least we don't harbor pedophiles

meant for (((you)))

The Protestants believe in the heresy of the filioque (except for the Old Catholics). This already makes them semi-Christian at best.

Add to this their heresy of monergism, rejection of intercession of the saints, rejection of tradition, Judaizing among the Seventh-Day Adventists, and an absolute lack of any notion of sacramentality among most Evangelicals, and you get a really bad package.

Catholics are heretics and schismatics but at least they believe they follow the tradition passed on since the apostles. Protestants proudly claim that they have done away with tradition and rely on the Bible and on philosophy alone. Catholics are a branch that was cut off from the Church and withered, but Protestants are a parallel tree set up because the first one wasn't pretty enough for them.

>>702795

>makes a geniune arguement against protestantism every day

>cool it with the anti protestantism man

>>702799

Sorry, I know this isn't a debate or polemical thread. My point was: we're as close to Protestants as we are to Catholics, which means we are extremely far apart from both of them.

>>702799

They had their reasons to develop that theology though. Do not judge them with today standards.

>>702803

I believe it was Luther who said that the main reason he fought against the Roman Church was because of the doctrine of synergism which he bellieved was heretical. But synergism is orthodox while monergism is heretical, so the Reformers were wrong from the beginnig.

In the process they threw aside the heresies of papal supremacy and Purgatory, which is good, but they also threw aside a good deal of genuinely orthodox doctrines, out of their schismatic pride.

And again, they have kept the most blasphemous error the Catholics have done - the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son.

>>702808

I've gone to about a dozen Protestant churches.

It was always either:

>Charismatic, disorganized service where everyone speaks in tongues and dances and cries

or

>Just a sermon extended to 1 hour with short prayers here and there

>>702805

No, he went against synergism as a way to fight the Catholic doctrine that you can pay your way to heaven because the pope can sell the merits of Christ and the Saints. Luther was so outraged about this so, based on Paul's epistole to Roman he came to the conclusion that only God can save us and not the pope, which is also what Orthodox believe btw.

>>702813

He confused the heresy of Purgatory (and indulgences) with the apostolic doctrine of synergism, and rejected both at once. If synergism were heretical, we Orthodox would be heretical.

Stop defending those who try to destroy the robe of Christ, please. Lutheranism was strictly condemned by the Ecumenical Patriarch soon after dialogue began in the Reformation era, and Calvinism is such a bad thing that we held a council ourselves to anathematize it and cleanse St Cyril Lukaris of the accusations of Calvinism.

>>702811

Protestant services are like that because they don't believe in or even understand the eucharist, they've forgotten the reason for church and treat it as a concert/bible study. Pray for them prods, many are good people that want to know the truth but are deceived

>>702814

Yes, maybe he threw the baby out with the bath water but consider this, he was born and raised Catholic, he actually believed in Christ and he just couldn't cope some outrageous theologies of his time. Also consider that this was the 16th century. He lived in that enviroment and he tried to do the best with what he had.

Also this thread is not about Luther alone neither about the reformation but rather about Protestants as people.

Have all protbros abandon this board already?

:(

>>702818

He had access to Orthodoxy, but disregarded it (although he seemingly was inspired by an Ethiopian Tewahedo traveler's account of his religion). His followers actually tried to establish communion with Orthodoxy but that's when they found out it was much closer to "Papism" than they imagined.

>>702820

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQRmCy6LfjI

>>702821

For what i know, it was the Orthodox patriarch who rejected them and mostly because they had problems of their own at the time (being under Ottoman slavery) and that's a damn shame. But i hope we'll have another chance in the future, the orthoprot meme exists for a reason kek.

>>702816

Most protestant churches I've attended hold communion once a month. They say it's to not do it every service such that it loses meaning, though I disagree. Baptism and Eucharist are the main sacraments still in practice so it's not like it isn't there, aside from other stuff like dedication and marriage of course.

>>702831

Yeah but they don't believe it's anything other than a symbolic gesture. I was at a Presbyterian church ages ago, and the pastor stressed how communion isn't literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ

>>702820

Nope

t. Methodist

>>702834

I dont speak for them all but yes we generally don't believe in transubstantiation. Just because it is a symbolic gesture doesn't mean it loses meaning. It is a public affirmation that we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and that by partaking in communion we remember him until his return.

Disputing over whether the grape juice becomes real blood or bread becomes meat seems like a pedantic argument.

>>702839

Christians have never believed in symbolic communion until the 1600s

>>702845

Christian theology has grown and changed since its inception. It hasn't been static nor do I find anything particularly heretical about denying transubstantiation.

When Jesus broke the bread and said "This is my body", what part of His body? Perhaps it's less to do with the technical and more to do with the meaning.

>>702820

The mods here have a habit of deleting any Protestant related discussion, even if it's not attacking Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

Everyone here (prot and non-prot) has a bad habit of immediately hammering the most divisive differences between us instead of trying to find any kind of fellowship and fighting the world instead of each other.

Are you really serious or simply baiting Catholics?

As far as I dont like Catholic innovations and additions to faith, saying that Protestantism is closer is extremely biased and blatantly wrong.

>>702846

>Christian theology has grown and changed since its inception

This line of thinking of western Christianity is one of the main subjects that Orthodoxy disputes.

>>702865

Yeah i know that prots are treated very bad here that's one of the reasons i made this thread.

>>702868

I didn't say protestantism but the protestants as people. Yeah i feel more related to them as Christians even though i disagree with their theology. I believe in their good intentions.

>>702890

I would like to know too. Thanks for the book suggestion anyway.

>>702899

>>702911

see

>>702798

>>702816

Have you ever been to a Lutheran mass? In some ways it's more traditional than the Catholic Novus Ordo. For example, the priest prays facing the altar.

>>702916

Kek. There was never faggots and pedos on the orthodox Church. Sure I'll believe it.

>>702791

Orthodox here and I agree completely. The goal of Orthodoxy and Protestantism is salvation, whereas of Catholicism it is worldly power.

I even read somewhere that Martin Luther considered becoming Orthodox and had a correspondence with some Greek priests, but was cut short due to some unfortunate circumstances.

What a different world we would have today if Northwestern Europe become Orthodox.

>>702946

>The goal of Orthodoxy and Protestantism is salvation, whereas of Catholicism it is worldly power.

Funny thing the orthodoxes in this board used copy pasted arguments from American protestants.

Very odd indeed.

>>702935

We don't provide them with shelter and we kick out, not promote, if someone is found out doing something like this.

And of course the incidents are far less fewer than Catholicism and isolated, not organised.

Anyway i said this only as an answer to buthurt caths who swarm the thread, i don't want to discuss catholic priest pedophilia again.

>>702946

I think not luther himself but some of his affiliates. They tried to approach us but we didn't pay them too much attention because we had problems of our own.

>>702954

What argument? The world power that you think the church wants? Only an ignorant wouldnt know that the church believes she's the way to salvation like orthodoxes and protestants believe. Why should I answer such a stupid thing?

>>702957

That's what happens when you have 1.2 billion faithful. The shit gets multiplied of course and where there is many devil's they tend to united themselves against God.

But judging something of the character of the people besides being an ad hominem argument is nonsensical. For exemples even Judas an Apostle was a traitor, why sometimes people are surprised about these pedos inside the church?

Now if the Church supported pedoshit in their doctrine I would understand your complain. Otherwise is just shitting on other people.

>>702987

Ignore typos. winnie the pooh phone.

>>702875

Well although Orthodoxy preserves many ancient traditions and beliefs, my point is that it too wasn't complete on any particular day or event and was gradually improved and changed. I don't know if you guys take after say Augustine or Aquinas but you obviously have your patriarchs and such who contributed to what is generally canonical Orthodoxy.

>i believe that we are actually more close with prots.

Then I am afraid you do not know your own theology. In addition to not knowing anything about catholicism and protestantism

Either that or you're baiting here. Prots and Orthos have one thing in common : they dislike the Pope and mostly they tend to dislike catholics. However to claim they're close as far as theology is concerned, closer than O. and C. is stupid.

Refer to:Saints, sacraments, transubstiation,

>>702799

I am no expert on "filioque" but so far I have read that this "heresy" was created by using "procedit" in latin translation of the creed in a response to aryan heresy, quoting the exact quote from Bible. While in Greek the word used - do not remember the word - is the verb that describes the only origin. It is literally "to originate" whereas in latin the word means proceed. Thus the word does not describe the only origin of the Holy Spirit - which is believed by catholics to be God, but it means literally to proceed, not to originate. Catholics believe that the Holy spirit originates ONLY from god, but can be passed through the Son. As far as I know even your Eastern church fathers acknowledge this. But I do come across Orthos that try to claim things as "Catholics believe Holy spirit originates from both Son and the Father" or "Filioque is a heresy used to justify created grace".. Guess what. the only time I heard "created grace" or something of the sort was from Orthos. I seriously have no idea what you guys meant by it because I have not come across any catholic priest that would claim that somebody in the church creates grace by himself.

As far as I have studied the matter - not for very long though - I have come to understanding that the "filioque" is the same thing worded differently but it may sound weird if you know greek and do not know latin - I highly doubt this is the case with most Orthodoxes, since they certainly do not know the creed in all languages - their native, greek and latin.

>Orthodox here and I agree completely. The goal of Orthodoxy and Protestantism is salvation, whereas of Catholicism it is worldly power.

opinion discarded. Yeah sure the church does not care about salvation.

It shows how much you know about the Catholic church besides "muh latins" arguments.

Pathetic tbh.

>>702954

Funny how you do not present any arguments at all, just making claims without backing them up by arguments.

As I have said earlier. Pathetic.

>>702805

Yeah sure. Luther was very orthodox indeed - in spirit. That's why the Protestant church stands united with strong hierarchy right. Oh wait.

But they do acknowledge the saints….Oh no.

Well at least they have the same view on Theotokos. Well not that exactly.

But I heard they think eucharist is literally the body of christ. Oh not again.

But other than that…yeah. very Orthodox indeed. Maybe if you meme it enough you will come to believe it.

>>702987

This is the case when you do not get any answer. When called out on his non-argument, Orthodox tends to leave the debate.

Either that or he repeats "muh latins" and then leaves.

>>702811

I am a Lutheran from Norway with some Russian Orthodox background, and here are my two cents.

Your comment is semi-true, especially here in the South of Norway. Church here is decadent, allowing faggotry,divorce etc. (things I personally consider heresy tbh), and the services only last for one hour or so. Most of the Church attendants are old people, and although I have met some young people who will try making our Church great again, I really doubt it will happen unless God intervenes via a miracle. I am currently studying theology, and when I'm done I'm going straight to the northern Norway where there are some ultra-conservative Christians (Læstadians) who don't accept abortion,divorce, women prieshood, faggot marriage etc.(some groups even have confessions, where you have to confess your sins to a pastor) I truly believe that they're our last hope here, pray for Christianity in Norway, even if you consider it a heresy.

>>703022

As for Catholics in your country there's less than 5% and orthos don't even exist. Only the state controlled church.

But cheer up. Its the most Christian country in Scandinavia.

I do consider protestantism an heresy, but better a decent prot than a gay one.

Still praying you guys will join the church.

Good luck lad.

>>702987

My problem is not so much the actions by their own but the fact that people, together with the Pope, are covering up the sick priests.

>>703019

please delet

>>703021

Muh dude i never said that we are the same theologically with them. I just think that we are more related as people.

>>702946

>>702954

While I would slightly agree about worldly power part somewhat, you do realize that basically only two major denominations according to whom soterology is not about going to clouds with fluffy winged angels and being sentenced to eternity of choir singing but about deep concept of "become gods for God's sake, since God became man for our sake" as Gregory of Nazianzus would say, aka Divinization/Theosis are Orthodox and Catholics?

I do not agree with numerous parts of Catholicism, be it its Juridical nature or other, your statement is extremely biased and unreasonable.

>>703047

*but your statement…

Btw here's an article about the dialog between the early prots and orthos

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/10/03/lutherans-greek-church/

There's also this but it has a paywall. If anyone here has a pass please share

https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/2008/august/what-did-reformers-think-about-eastern-orthodox-church.html

>>702799

>The Protestants believe in the heresy of the filioque

GARANTEED REPLIES

>Catholics always try to confuse people that we orthos are the same as them just without the p*pe but i believe that we are actually more close with prots

You mean being heretic and schismatic? You are right.

>>702808

noice meme, saved

>>702808

>George MacDonald

Tell us a little about how he influenced you

The Archbishop of CYPRUS, 1923

The Archbishop of Cyprus wrote to the Patriarch of Constantinople in the name of his Synod on March 20, 1923, as follows: To His All-Holiness the Oecumenical Patriarch Mgr. Meletios we send brotherly greeting in Christ. Your Holiness – Responding readily to the suggestion made in your reverend Holiness' letter of August 8, 1922, that the autocephalous Church of Cyprus under our presidency should give its opinion as to the validity of Anglican Orders we have placed the matter before the Holy Synod in formal session.

After full consideration thereof it has reached the following conclusion: It being understood that the Apostolic Succession in the Anglican Church by the Sacrament of Order was not broken at the Consecration of the first Archbishop of this Church, Matthew Parker, and the visible signs being present in Orders among the Anglicans by which the grace of the Holy Spirit is supplied, which enables the ordinand for the functions of his particular order, there is no obstacle to the recognition by the Orthodox Church of the validity of Anglican Ordinations in the same way that the validity of the ordinations of the Roman, Old Catholic, and Armenian Church are recognized by her.

Since clerics coming from these Churches into the bosom of the Orthodox Church are received without reordination we express our judgment that this should also hold in the case of Anglicans – excluding intercommunio (sacramental union), by which one might receive the sacraments indiscriminately at the hands of an Anglican, even one holding the Orthodox dogma, until the dogmatic unity of the two Churches, Orthodox and Anglican, is attained. Submitting this opinion of our Church to Your All-Holiness, we remain, Affectionately, the least of your brethren in Christ,

Cyril of Cyprus

Archbishopric of Cyprus. March 7/20, 1923 Published in The Christian East, vol. IV, 1923, pp. 122-123.

>>702820

Pentecostal checking in.

>>702865

> fighting the world instead of each other.

For me Catholicism is the world and I can't help myself to see it otherwise. I tried for the sake of Christ and unity, I really really did, but my contempt and hatred just won't let up. The opposite is the case: The more I learn about Catholics, the more I hate and despise them. From the Fourth Crusade up to now, every day it gets worse, until, I pray for the day when they are no more.

>>703112

Are you a masochist?

>>702865

I think premillennialism and Lutheranism are the big no-nos here. Threads questioning salvific baptism, praying to saints, hierarchy, half the sacraments, so-called works salvation etc. are still around.

>>703249

Only within the confines of marriage, anon.

>>703105

This bishop is very mistaken. We have never recognized Catholic, Old Catholic, or Armenian ordinations or overall sacraments.

>>703635

Then why aren't they reordained if they convert?

>>703635

Ah yes, Bishop is wrong but random anon on 8chan isnt.

>>702820

Don't worry, they're just banned

>>703864

They are. Any non-Orthodox clergymen must be baptized and ordained in the Orthodox Church, although most Orthodox in the West do not baptize out of economy, to prevent scandal (the grace of the Eucharist makes up for it anyway). And, by economy also, someone who was a clergyman in a heterodox sect can be ordained more quickly to the equivalent rank in the Church if the bishops figure out he already has the skills and knowledge necessary, but this does not always happen (I've heard of an Eastern Catholic priest who was received into Orthodoxy as a layman and whose qualifications from seminary were not recognised so he ended up never becoming a major order).

>>706072

Theologically we are of course more close with Catholics. But Protestants emerged as an opposition to Catholic abuses so we are closer with them in that matter. I love both Catholics and Protestants but many Orthodox people are afraid of Catholicism because of historical reasons and because they are always trying to sunvert us. Personally i never blame the lay people but i hate the institution, the Vatican, the Papacy etc.

>>702799

>Catholics are heretics and schismatics

Lmao, pass the weed bro.

>>706113

I'm not obliged to like only whoever likes me. I like protties for the reasons i stated and maybe some won't like me, but maybe some other will. Also i only like the serious protties as i said and not the caricatures (i'm OP btw)

>>706113

Protestantism is multifaceted. There are some Protestant communities becoming Orthodox.

>>702791

Always felt the same way as a coC guy. Whenever I see someone's orthodox I feel some respect for them, but catholics I just think of as fags, even though it does seem like you guys have almost the same beliefs. As in, I actually think of you guys as Christian and Catholics as paganists. Thought it was just because orthodox countries are generally more socially traditional than Catholics or something or less obnoxious, maybe there's more to it. My biggest problems with the Catholics are also stuff you guys don't have, like pope and purgatory stuff. Also Putin is fighting the Jews and protecting Christians in the middle east so it seems like you guys are on the right side geopolitically. Catholics on the other hand I see as with satan in the end times.

>>706123

>There are some Protestant communities becoming Orthodox.

Then they will be Orthodox. You can't be a orthoprot. Wtf?

>>706130

I honestly thought about visiting an orthodox parish but the closest one is kinda far and I don't agree with the views on holy tradition or saints. I do respect them as Christians since we (coC) and orthodox claim to be as close as possible to the 1st century Church.

>>706136

Putin absolutely steamed the Jews by kicking out the oligarchs and owning Israel recently in Syria and in Ukraine. If everyone was a part of the Jewish plan they wouldn't have lost in Syria.

https://nationalvanguard.org/2012/05/the-silent-coup-putin-vs-the-oligarchs/

>>706139

>Syria has oil reserves

>Ukraine is lost land and it's orthodox church hates Putin

>Le based Putin

>i also do not know geopolitics

(I am did not say Trump was the based one. Pro tip: there are no based leaders. Trust God an not politicians.)

>>706141

Russia rises from her knees

>>706143

Even if Russia has her own interests, they are directly against Israel and Russia chooses her own interests. America goes against her own interests in favor of Israel.

>>706145

Just curious, how old are you?

>>706147

25

>>706146

Unfortunately Ukraine has been the target of the CIA and thus Jewish interests since euromaidan. I hope the church has not been too badly effected by their propaganda in western Ukraine. There is lots of western modernist influence since the criminal nazi Poroshenko was chosen.

>>706148

Lol. Read your news better. Putin has a lot of jews as political advisors. He just ensures his country has oil. He is not against the jews.

The Romanian church condemns the anexation of Crimea. (I think the Greeks did as well)

Kirill is ex-KGB agent (aka commie)

You've been seeing too much /pol/ sh*tposts.

>>706150

>hes not against the jews

>destroyed them in a huge conflict that allows Iran a direct connection to fund Hezbollah in Lebanon

>demonized by western jew controlled media as hitler

>kicked out jewish oligarchs

>>706151

>destroyed them in a huge conflict

Israel still exists.

>demonized by western jew controlled media as hitler

They also said Ben Shapiro is literally Hitler.

>kicked out jewish oligarchs

I'll believe you but if you have time provide also a link.

(Final thought: Trust God and no politician)

>>706152

>Israel still exists.

They fought Israeli interests in Syria, they have no interest in destroying Israel itself, although indirectly they've helped that by helping Hezbollah.

>They also said Ben Shapiro is literally Hitler.

No they don't, they never talk about Ben Shapiro. He's a nobody.

>I'll believe you but if you have time provide also a link

Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He also supposedly banned the Rothschilds from Russia.

>>706125

>Always felt the same since I started consuming orthodox memes

>muh traditional Orthodox countries

>muh papacy and purgatory

>le based Putin

Do not want to insult you but you have had too much meme soup for dinner and your stomach hurts.

If you really want to convert, justify it by studying theology first, not by consuming memes. I suppose you are serious about the faith, not just meme larper.

As for "le based Putin":

https://www.newsweek.com/putin-says-communism-comes-bible-compares-lenin-saint-781328

BASTE!

Pro-tip: It wasn't Christians who came up with bolshevism but you probably know it.

>>706130

This meme is real. As someone being in touch with Orthodox content I can second this.

I don't have anything against Orthodox Christians. But meme larpers are a joke. You can find Ortholarper quickly. In the second sentence he will mention "le based Putin" and how conservative Orthodox countries are today. That proves Orthodoxy MUST be correct. It's not like the difference is 100years of communism vs long reign of Capitalism in west.

>counting erasmus as prot

Erasmus died in the bosom of the Catholic Church, believe it or not

>>706072

Protestants believe in:

- sola fide (monergism)

- sola scriptura

- no clergy (& no apostolic succession)

- no sacraments

- iconoclasm

- no praying to saints

- glossalia as a proof of faith

Catholics believe in:

- the filioque

- papal supremacy

- Purgatory

- using azymes for the Eucharist

- absolute divine simplicity

- adding books to the canon (no, there are not more than 66 books, Protestants are right on that one)

- indulgences

Both have their fair share of false, blasphemous doctrines. Both have distanced themselves from the Church equally.

>>703423

>Lutheranism are the big no-nos here.

Really? So that's why I never see anyone self-identify as Lutheran post-flag removal? They left? Dude, don't do this to me. I just calmed down after a long-ass rant against the mods. Say it ain't so!

>>706072

>they reject works

No we don't. We reject works as justification before the sight God, which leads to Him by His grace saving you from the punishment you deserve. And if you are saved, His Spirit will keep you persevering until the end, without the need of your own power and works keeping you in the faith and in His grace. It's all His power, for His glory alone.

We still affirm that a Christian, out of his new found freedom from his sin nature should do good works out from his faith and love of Christ. Of course, you guys have been explained this over and over again. In that case, keep accepting whatever falsehood floats your baptismal boat bud.

>>706130

>Cookie Ice Cream Sandwiches

Nani?

>>706113

Heretics, not pagan, and only those that deny a faith-based Gospel that justifies, rather than faith with works justifying you. Some affirm the true Gospel, many more so than the Catholic church from what I've heard and seen. Those that affirm the true gospel are still in error though for the icons, sacraments, and loose and low view of Scripture (though even there, there are some decent Orthos from what I heard about varying Orthodox Bibliology). OP seems a pretty cool guy though. I like him.

>>706511

Helped C.S. Lewis get out of atheism and his fantasies and fairy tales are nice. Shame about the universalism.

>>706511

He wrote some incredibly beautiful stories.

>>706580

>glossalia as a proof of faith

Only some Pentecostals, most Protestants are partial or full cessastionists. Even Protestants (mostly Pentecostals) that are charismatics don't use glossolalia as a proof of faith but as a means of worship, as wrong as they are on that issue.

>no sacraments

>no clergy

You're kidding right? Did you even study what we believed before posting? At all? Or did you quickly ask some random Ortho guy what he thought of Protestants and Catholics?

>(no, there are not more than 66 books, Protestants are right on that one).

As Jesus said to the wiser Jewish scribe: "You're not far from the Kingdom of God :^)"

>>706586

I go to Protestant churches often because some of them do their service in the afternoon, and I don't always have access to my parish. I already know what you people believe.

>Only some Pentecostals, most Protestants are partial or full cessastionists. Even Protestants (mostly Pentecostals) that are charismatics don't use glossolalia as a proof of faith but as a means of worship, as wrong as they are on that issue.

This is not true at all in my experience.

>You're kidding right? Did you even study what we believed before posting? At all? Or did you quickly ask some random Ortho guy what he thought of Protestants and Catholics?

I'm not aware of a single Protestant church that still believes in clergy in the sense meant by Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Literally none of them are recognized to have valid apostolic succession by anyone.

Protestant churches either reject all mysteries (believing baptism and communion to not be mysteries but outward show of inner faith) or reject all of them but baptism and communion, and even then twist the doctrine of communion (with heresies like consubstantiation or spiritual presence) to the point it can hardly be called a sacrament from an Orthodox point of view anymore.

>>706584

>Shame about the universalism.

Nah, thats a good thing and may be a small proof of Orthodox influence on him. I mean, there is no evidence, but I've heard this on this board based on his view of universalism and certain other things I cant remember now.

>>706586

By the way, you're a Lutheran, correct? What do you think of the following?

The books called "deuterocanonical" in Catholicism are called "anagignoskomena" (profitable to read) in Greek tradition, or "non-canonical" in Slavic tradition. They are not considered to be inspired, but they are included in Bibles, most of the time mixed with the canonical scriptures (except for Romanian Bibles that put them all as an appendix between the OT and the NT).

We have written a response to Calvinism here, which may apply to Protestants as a whole: http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html

I recommend you read the whole thing, but this is the part about faith and works:

>We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad.

>>706645

>I go to Protestant churches often because some of them do their service in the afternoon, and I don't always have access to my parish. I already know what you people believe.

What Protestant churches? Don't you know we have 30,000 Varieties™? Clearly you can't get them all even in your local area. :^)

>This is not true at all in my experience

Maybe, but that's the thing, experience can only go so far, and sometimes what you experience is not accurate to the full, actual truth because some hidden context or some facts are missing from your own experience. Unlike what some may have told you, we do have creeds and confession that we hold dear, and Sola Scriptura does not mean we have no other authority but Scripture. The two confessions that closest match my personal beliefs, the later which I publicly affirm: the Westminster Confession and London Baptist Confession. Both uphold a cessationist view of extraordinary spiritual gifts. Conservative and Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians figure in the tens of millions of Christians total. So I can't grasp how you find most local Protestant churches affirming glossolalia unless you are extraordinarily lucky and have mostly or only Pentecostal churches.

Presbyterians, Lutherans, and conservative Anglicans will defrock clergy that ignores the doctrines the confessions teach. Baptists, because of our ecclesiology, will defrock within our church and will warn and publicly denounce another errant congregation. (Boy do we do that a lot at my church)

>I'm not aware of a single Protestant church that still believes in clergy in the sense meant by Catholicism and Orthodoxy

So? Just because we don't give powers, rights, titles, and particular kinds of honors to our clergy, doesn't make them not clergy.

>in the sense meant by Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

The Anglicans would like a word with you. But even then, the burden's on Catholics and Orthodox to show our meaning of presbyrteros, diakonos, and episkopos don't match what Paul and others actually meant. Also, the Greek word for clergy, kleros, applies to all believers and not just a select few when the word is used in the NT. Don't nitpick me about that, cause I'm well aware of the word root fallacy and that clergy then doesn't mean clergy now.

>Literally none of them are recognized to have valid apostolic succession by anyone.

Titus and First Timothy do not include a literal bestowing of apostolic authority as a prerequisite for clergy. They must be outstanding Christian men though.

>>706654

>By the way, you're a Lutheran, correct?

Nope, Reformed Baptist. I consider most Lutherans as true brothers, so it's a shame if the more Internet-privy Lutherans are scared away from this board because certain current assholes we have as moderators.

>The books called "deuterocanonical" in Catholicism are called "anagignoskomena" (profitable to read) in Greek tradition,

We would consider those books "profitable to read" as well, even books like Josephus' works; though when teaching lay, we wouldn't rely on those books at all unless dealing with certain context, like the Maccabees when discussing Jesus celebrating the Feast of Dedication.

>>We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love

That's pretty much what we believe. A living faith that does good works. Or as R.C. Sproul puts it: we are justified by faith alone but not a faith that is alone.

>But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ

Now we get to the issue: first, nowhere in Protestant theology does anyone claim our faith "lays hold" as if we could do such a thing to God. Rather, faith is opening ourselves up through self-debasement and child-like belief to receive His grace and righteousness so that Christ becomes the one who "lays hold" on those willing to believe, not vice versa. Far be it that we believe man can grasp, through whatever process, what he himself cannot keep.

>For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false.

Agreed, which is why we don't believe in such a faith.

>through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises

Now we have the main issue. What do you mean "becomes efficacious" and who is making the faith "efficacious"? If they mean the Holy Spirit, then while I wouldn't have worded the creed that way, those words are still orthodox; but if man is causing the effect, then we got a big problem here. I was told by an reformed apologist that two of your priests called each other anathema this past decade over this issue, so we need to be more clear here.

>Protestant churches either reject all mysteries

I gotta look up the Orthodox doctrine of mysteries before I can comment on this.

>>706649

Yeah, I don't believe he had your typical views of universalism. But I can't with a good conscience call it anything but a shame.

>>706907

>But I can't with a good conscience call it anything but a shame.

Then we agree to disagree. I'm actually sympathetic for supporters of said doctrine (although I dont support it, but do have hope for it to be true)

Also, Now that I looked at his wikipage, it seems that he definitely was influenced by Orthodoxy on some degree, not only on universalism but also in other parts.

>>706907

>Now we get to the issue: first, nowhere in Protestant theology does anyone claim our faith "lays hold" as if we could do such a thing to God. Rather, faith is opening ourselves up through self-debasement and child-like belief to receive His grace and righteousness so that Christ becomes the one who "lays hold" on those willing to believe, not vice versa. Far be it that we believe man can grasp, through whatever process, what he himself cannot keep.

It should be noted that the anathema on Calvinism was more specifically aimed at certain writings of St Cyril Lukaris, who tried to make a mix of Orthodox and Reformed theology.

>Now we have the main issue. What do you mean "becomes efficacious" and who is making the faith "efficacious"? If they mean the Holy Spirit, then while I wouldn't have worded the creed that way, those words are still orthodox; but if man is causing the effect, then we got a big problem here. I was told by an reformed apologist that two of your priests called each other anathema this past decade over this issue, so we need to be more clear here.

Good works that we have are not ours, but Christ's, given to us by grace through the Holy Spirit. Some speculate, like in "Tale of a Russian Pilgrim", that the only thing that is really left to us is how frequently we pray.

>I was told by an reformed apologist that two of your priests called each other anathema this past decade over this issue, so we need to be more clear here.

Haven't heard about this.

>I gotta look up the Orthodox doctrine of mysteries before I can comment on this.

Same as for Catholics, I believe. Although maybe not entirely since we definitely disagree on things concerning Chrismation, Confession, Marriage, and Ordination.

>>702816

Anglicans and a few other protestant churches hold communion, some have both contemporary and traditional services over the one day.

>>702865

I wondered why this board was so dead. I remember 1 maybe 2 years ago this board was active, every thread was high quality and informative, there was more interdenominational banter than bickering, and we got to put up our denominational flags.

One of my favourite threads was "say something nice about another denomination". Did the moderators change?

>>713809

The Mods are Jesuits.

>>706930

Cyril Lukaris is not a Calvinist. He was forced by Calvinists

Also, Calvinists like Sproul are crypto Nestorians

the proof:

Some say, “It was the second person of the Trinity Who died.” That would be a mutation within the very being of God, because when we look at the Trinity we say that the three are one in essence, and that though there are personal distinctions among the persons of the Godhead, those distinctions are not essential in the sense that they are differences in being. Death is something that would involve a change in one’s being.

We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the cross. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ. Somehow people tend to think that this lessens the dignity or the value of the substitutionary act, as if we were somehow implicitly denying the deity of Christ. God forbid. It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/

You cant say God didnt die on the Cross or suffered there and then claim it is the Godman that did it. It only makes you sound inconsistent and even worse, Nestorius can even say something like this, as he believes there isnt two sons in the first place. Like Nestorius, Sproul shrieks at the idea that God suffered and died on that cross. It's only the "human nature that suffered".

I'm Orthodox but I think it's impossible to deny the rich treasury of faith found in people like C.S Lewis. And I find a lot of value in Christian apologists like William Lane Craig and James White.

>>713809

Christian has gone through different board owners over the last years, initially an inactive protestant, then an Orthodox, and currently a very sectarian Roman Catholic. This is why there's very little moderation of anti-Orthodox sentiment, but a lot of moderation of posts against Roman Catholicism.

>>703105

Good article on this topic:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/tikhon_response.aspx

>>702799

I don't think Protestants believe the filioque with the same sincerity as Roman Catholics - if you speak to a Protestant about it, they will not understand the dispute, they will talk about compromising - or why it's not important, whereas Roman Catholics are defined by the filioque in their theology and councils.

Here is a quote from a Bulgarian reformed missionary, Boijdar Marinov:

Faith has consequences. What started as an innocent difference in wording, by one word only, actually led over a long period of time to a huge and not so innocent difference in faith, then ideology, then social practice, then culture. The changes were not immediate, but even as early as the 9th and the 10th centuries it was visible. The Western Church was compiling the Canon Law; the Eastern Church was compiling the Lives of the Saints. The Western Church was fighting kings and emperors over the validity of the old royal/pagan laws; the Eastern Church was writing treatises on the emperors as divine legislators. The Western Church was developing the idea of practical imitation of Christ; the Eastern Church was developing the idea of the mystical imitation of Christ. Christ’s place in the representative work of the Spirit made the difference. The filioque made the difference.

>>706136

>Russia is geopolitically bad because Putin takes a picture with Jews

lmfao

>>706123

>Protestantism is multifaceted. There are some Protestant communities people becoming Orthodox.

*FTFY

>>702791

The hell is wrong with you people? You want to be friends who deny the sacraments and basic principles of faith? You're only proving you're enemies of Christ and His Church.