/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>689668

This is the true Christian faith.

>>689674

>correct

Yes, the Father is the one true God and God of our God Jesus Christ. The Father and Son are God, but the Father is the one true God and the Son is our God, they are not one in substance. This is the one true faith that the homoiousian doctrine confesses.

>incorrect

No, not incorrect. The Holy Spirit was created by the Father to be the minister of second God who is Christ.

>Peter said that Satan had filled Ananias’s heart to “lie to the Holy Spirit” (Acts 5:3) and concluded by saying that Ananias had “lied to God” (verse 4). Peter’s words equate the Holy Spirit with God; he spoke as if the Spirit and God were one and the same.

This doesn't entail that the Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is the minister of Christ, Christ works through the Holy Spirit in us, therefore lying to the Holy Spirit entails lying to God since Christ works the Holy Spirit in us, this does not mean the Holy Spirit is God.

>then why put the Holy Spirit among the rank of Father & Son if he is not equal with them?

Because this is what Christ commanded, and we follow his commands. The gift of the Holy Spirit is an essential part of salvation, these three persons are essential parts of salvation and because of that make up the Triad, how could you not include them in baptism which enters one into the Kingdom of salvation?

>There is no such thing as a non-trinitarian Christian.

Correct. However, there is no such thing as a homoousian Christian. True Christians hold to the true homoiousian doctrine, not the homoousian heresy.

>>689688

>The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, like how the Son proceeds from the Father, without a "creation event" taking place; no person in the trinity has "temporal priority" over another.

Repeating a heresy doesn't make it true. In your case, the homoousian heresy.

The true doctrine is that the Father created both the Son and Holy Spirit. He created the Son to be God over the cosmos, and he created the Holy Spirit to be minister of the Son.

>The Son is the Alpha and Omega, so is the Father.

Correct.

>They are one being.

Incorrect.

>Do you believe in two Gods of two distinct substances? Are you a polytheist now?

What!? How could you accuse me of that!? There is only one God, the Father and Son, with the Father being the one true God and the Son being second God. Two substances does not entail polytheism, that is anachronistic modern definition and cannot be applied to the homoiousian doctrine.

Rather, the homoiousian doctrine is strictly monotheistic. We worship one God, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ our God. Together they are united is a very distinct way which makes them both God, yet this does not mean they are of one substance. No, certainly not. The Father is the one true God, much higher than the Son, and the Son is much subordinate to God the Father. Many of the fathers taught this, from Justin Martyr to Origen to Arius to Ulfilas and on.

Don't be applying anachronisms to these doctrines. Modernism is a heresy, you should know that.

>He commanded it because they are the same divine being, so they deserve worship and baptism is in their name. It doesn't make sense to baptize in the name of God + (created entity) + (created entity).

He commanded it because these persons are essential in their roles for salvation not because they are all God.

>>689692

>Together they are united is a very distinct way which makes them both God, yet this does not mean they are of one substance. No, certainly not. The Father is the one true God, much higher than the Son, and the Son is much subordinate to God the Father. Many of the fathers taught this, from Justin Martyr to Origen to Arius to Ulfilas and on.

> they are united is a very distinct way which makes them both God

What do you think they are united in that makes them one being? Because you describe them as ontologically distinct beings. God isn't a title created things can "share" in. God is one being. A triunity,, 3 persons 1 being. You dissolved this unity, nothing substantial connects it in your view.

>What!? How could you accuse me of that!?

Because you deny they share the same essence and are the same being, and that the Son is created, while the Father is uncreated, so they can't be ontologically God. God is uncreated.

>He commanded it because these persons are essential in their roles for salvation not because they are all God.

Only God forgives, only he saves and no created being shares his glory. Isaiah 42:8

>>689695

>What do you think they are united in that makes them one being? Because you describe them as ontologically distinct beings. God isn't a title created things can "share" in. God is one being. A triunity,, 3 persons 1 being. You dissolved this unity, nothing substantial connects it in your view.

God is not one composite being, else this would limit God and he would not be God. God can maneuver himself in anyway he like, he may manifest himself as different beings. God has given the Son the authority and power to be God because he has the authority to do such being God. This is a testament to his oneness, to his power and glory. Hence, Origen calls Jesus "second God", whereas the Father is the one true God.

How are Jesus and the Father God? This is a mystery that cannot be known. It is one of the greatest mysteries about God, how he can be both the Father and the Son yet still be one single God. But the Father and Son being one is their Godhood. God's oneness is unlike any oneness that there is that cannot be conceived, and so anything God does is not conceivable in anyway. He is beyond our full comprehension.

>Because you deny they share the same essence and are the same being, and that the Son is created, while the Father is uncreated, so they can't be ontologically God. God is uncreated.

But they ontologically one God in respect of category, though not being. I don't understand how this entails polytheism? They are one God. There is one God. It simply is what it is. Once again, you're applying modern definitions to something no modern. Your idea of substance is developed our of Aristotlean categories as is all of western philosophy, but God operates under no philosophy.

>Only God forgives, only he saves and no created being shares his glory. Isaiah 42:8

Right, God has forgiven through the Holy Spirit. He also gave the apostles the authority to forgive (see John 20).

>>689688

>the Son proceeds from the Father

"begotten by" is the wording you should use

>>689704

>You are calling the Son "God" but also say he is not God, that he doesn't share the same essence/substance as the Father, that he is a created creature who is an agent for God.

He is second God as the church fathers refer to him.

>He can manifest he can also incarnate. Your view denies the incarnation. It wasn't the Alpha and Omega, it wasn't God who incarnated, but a created agent of his.

Wrong. I fully affirm the incarnation. My view is the most biblical and Christian. Your view is an Aristotlean heresy and not Christian. Homoousians/Nicenes are not Christians.

>God is not a "category", he is a being, he is personal. Categories are abstract and impersonal groups.

Right. God is beyond anything we can comprehend. I say category is respect of how they can be called one but not necessarily in an absolute respect, only in human terms.

>To be God is to have God's essence and share in his attributes. God is uncreated, God is eternal, God is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. You can't say this of the Son or Spirit because you say they are created things, and not equal. If X and Y are not equal to God, they are not God.

Again, you're basing your whole premise off of Greek notions of substance, but that is not what God is. You're making a circular argument as well since you already have an assumption about what God is built into your argument.

God cannot be defined as a substance or substances. These might be able to be used in human terms but when we have an actual ontological discussion this breaks down. God simply is. The Father and the Son are 100% distinct from each other, the Father is the one true God, the Son is second God; the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten; the Father is not created, the Son is created. Yet they are both fully 100% God and cannot be placed into Greek conceptions of substance and genus and species.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence.

. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world.

Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved