/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2015/06/anneliese-michel-unrecognized-and.html

>>679915

It's quite long. Care to summarise for me? Ill read later of course.

>>679915

Ok, I read a bit. Seems like bs. So she had to undergo torture, possession and an eternity in hell for some penance to save souls? Doesn't seem fair.

>>679915

>On one occasion during an exorcism, Lucifer said through Anneliese: "Today, hardly anyone believes any longer in the Immaculate Conception. And the Church? At present, most believe it is only a community. The modernists are killing it evermore. We are hard at work at this, and we throw much poison into the Church, so it might be discredited. By now, those who believe in the Church and are faithful and believe in Her [teachings] are very few. The rosary? They think it is "modern". Many believe that after life, everything is finished. These are very many, and they live accordingly, because they do not pray any longer. Sins reach Heaven: but the thing will not last long. The one of 1917 [the Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima] said it. But only a few have listened to her. Death, tribulations, and famine, O yes, they will surely come again!”

Ok, so is the devil trying to save people from hell or is the devil trying to promote the sspx and sedevacantists?

>>679915

Ok, I'm learning more as I go along:

>Demon named Judas: “We cannot, because He does not allow it. The one up there, that one does not want it! He wants us to remain. We want to get out from her, who goes to Communion, and she goes every day! We cannot bear this! We wish to come out, out, out!…We wish to come out, but the one up there does not allow us!” Thus we can see that it was God Himself who permitted the demons to oppress Anneliese, so that sinners might be converted and be saved from damnation.

Hmm, reminds me of 2 Chronicles 18:20-22

<Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ ‘By what means?’ asked the LORD. And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ ‘You will surely entice him and prevail,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’ So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you

>>679919

Also the devil seems only concerned with positions taken specifically by the Roman Catholics. The Immaculate Conception as an example.

>>679927

Good point. What did Lucifer mean by this?

>>679918

>eternity in hell

Being possessed have nothing to do with being saved. Possession is in body, salvation is grace in soul.

>>679919

During exorcisms demons must obey unless Christ wills otherwise.

>>679927

>>679931

Hmm I wonder, does Devil care about human inventions, heresies and schisms or is more concerned about the True Church, bride of his arch-enemy, Christ?

its worked but for short time

then all demons come back to her body

>>679939

>Hmm I wonder, does Devil care about human inventions, heresies and schisms or is more concerned about the True Church, bride of his arch-enemy, Christ?

The plot thickens.

>>679927

Really makes you think

>>679909

Wondering if you guys have any other demon possession stories. They are very interesting.

>>680975

Read Father Amorth.

>>679919

>the biggest problem today isn't that people stopped believing in Jesus, but that they stopped believing idolatrous Marian doctrine like the immaculate conception

>>679927

>>679931

She wasn't possessed. Just insane, and she simply started to talk about the false doctrines she was taught.

Example

>The rosary? They think it is "modern"

>>681046

>She wasn't possessed. Just insane

<t. modernist

>>681046

yeah man, that explains the levitating objects and other psi phenomena that went on around her.

psi has actually been scientifically proven. as in, rigorous, academic studies. but of course that doesn't make the news. the "materialistic" worldview must be enforced.

even some of the world's top neurologists are baffled by some cases of possession.

this facile dismissal of the subject is so irritating, because the one uttering it always think he's sounding smart, when it actually springs from ignorance.

just look up exorcisms, levitation, telkinesis on freaking youtube and have a field day. this stuff is not some obscure secret.

but most people don't want to know the truth when it comes to these things, they just want to sound smart.

>>681053

>psi has actually been scientifically proven. as in, rigorous, academic studies.

You mean the same academic studies that failed to replicate? Very rigour, much insightful.

Also, FYI, I am not dismissing demonic possession. I am dismissing the claims that this woman was herself possessed and hat her antics were caused by demons. She was a tortured soul, but what tortured her the most was probably the false doctrine of the Roman church.

>>681260

>She was a tortured soul, but what tortured her the most was probably the false doctrine of the Roman church.

>what tortured her the most was probably

>probably

Of course, I do realise that I've stepped inside a den of Mary worshippers and you're all jizzing your pants based on the false belief that Satan was talking through this woman. So let me ask this: why would the Prince of Lies give legitimacy to Marian heresy? Oh right: because Satan, in his war against God, wants as many people to burn in hell as possible.

Repent, papists!

>>681262

We can't rule out other sources of trauma anon.

>>681263

>why would the Prince of Lies give legitimacy to Marian heresy

Because even Satan, by the invocation of the Holy Name, can be compelled to speak the truth.

>>681264

Such as?

Couldn't the exorcism have been botched?

t. Catholic newbie to this kind of thing. Fr. Ripperger asserts that they get botched all the time because of people who don't know what they're doing.

>>681053

>when it actually springs from ignorance

Indeed, it springs from the continual ignorance coming from the advocates of psi.

>>681045

Mary crushed the serpent with her heel, thou who are in error

>>681269

He could, but not this time. Fr. Ripperger spoke about it iirc

>>681045

Apostates and infidels have better in hell than slightes heretics.

>>681259

You can't replicate what is beyond control of humans, no matter how much you want to feel like God

>Very rigour, much insightful

>>>/reddit/

>>681053

I remember flicking to a Dr. Phill episode and he was proclaiming how he was a Christian of science and didn't believe in silly nonsense like demotic possession. I was thinking did this hack even read the gospels at least?

>>679927

>>679939

Satan is the father of lies and the greatest deceiver in existence. Everything he does, he does in order to keep people away from the truth. Nothing that comes out of Satan's mouth should be blindly taken as truth.

>>679918

It sounds to me that the "Mary" that appeared to Anneliese was in fact a demonic apparition that successfully appealed to Anneliese's spiritual pride and made Anneliese reject salvation. The demonic "Mary" enticed Anneliese to put herself in the place of Christ.

>>679919

That example sounds like basic reverse psychology. The Devil is promoting the Marian dogmas by telling people that he, the Devil, wants people to stop believing in the Marian dogmas.

>>679921

More demonic lies. You may have noticed that the episode only made the Catholic Church and all Christianity look bad, backwards, and dangerous in addition to leading a human girl to damnation.

>>681428

>Power of Christ does not make Satan speak Truth

>>681439

>It sounds to me that the "Mary" that appeared to Anneliese was in fact a demonic apparition that successfully appealed to Anneliese's spiritual pride and made Anneliese reject salvation. The demonic "Mary" enticed Anneliese to put herself in the place of Christ.

<spiritual pride

<from person that thought that words "you will become great saint" was obviously false

>That example sounds like basic reverse psychology. The Devil is promoting the Marian dogmas by telling people that he, the Devil, wants people to stop believing in the Marian dogmas.

<Power of Christ does not make Satan speak Truth

>More demonic lies. You may have noticed that the episode only made the Catholic Church and all Christianity look bad, backwards, and dangerous in addition to leading a human girl to damnation.

<caring about what world, who by definition is in opposition to the Church, think

Classic cognitive dissonance

>>681439

>It sounds to me that the "Mary" that appeared to Anneliese was in fact a demonic apparition that successfully appealed to Anneliese's spiritual pride and made Anneliese reject salvation.

How? Satan is a tempter, not an arbiter of the soul. You have no real metric of knowing whether Anneliese "rejected salvation", in much of the same way you do not know if most people actually do (this is the same reason the Church actually declines to make definitive statements on damnation).

>The demonic "Mary" enticed Anneliese to put herself in the place of Christ.

ya, that pesky Mary always asking us to pray to Christ

>>681525

to follow up on my post: Satan cannot make you do anything, if Satan "made" you "go to hell", then you'd be forgiven it, since it was not in your own will.

>>680975

Grab a copy of the Compendium Maleficarum

>>680975

I had a very close encounter myself.

>>684255

Please do tell.

>>681469

>Classic cognitive dissonance

Not the other guy, but it does make me fear the roman catholic church and think it's denomic. You say Christ can compel the devil to tell the truth but it could also be just that it was a devil. I mean, the devil said a lot of very specific Catholic things. like, it was promoting the rosary and stuff. Seems like the devil was a Catholic prophet trying to promote Catholic belief.

>>684265

That's just what a demon would want you to think. They know they can't actually beat God or Jesus their only goal is to sow confusion and lead souls into hell.

>>684265

yeah, the devil really wants you to pray in a form vouched by the woman prophesied in Genesis 3:15 and meditate on the Passion of Christ

total satan move

>>684269

Where does the bible say to pray the rosary?

>>684267

The purpose of Mary appearing to her was to use her to save people. But all it's really done is just create more questions.

>>684265

Paul says to pray without ceasing. the rosary offers structure for people interested in praying for extended periods of time.

People might not realize but the Hail Mary is also about Jesus, "Mother of God and Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls."

>>679919

Don't you know? Satan is deceptive.

>>684265

You can get to this conclusion only if you already deny possibility of Catholicism being true. "Those exorcist tortured demon so much that he would rather be in hell but he was forced by Christ to tell truth and he says that Catholcism is true but Catholicism cannot be true because that means that I was wrong so Devil of course just lies; I am right, Catholicism is demonic"

>>684282

"And all generations shall call me blessed"

>>684300

>>684362

So when Paul said pray unceasingly he had a 16th century form of prayer in mind? Or did he just mean to prayer continuously, not repetitively. I'm actually ok with calling Mary the mother of God and bless but I will never pray the rosary. Damn near idolatry and polytheism.

>>684362

I mean, the devil was telling people to be good Catholics. Not once did it mention Christ or devotion to Him but rather modernist methods of prayer. I get what you're saying but if "mary" appeared to her to let her know she will be possessed in order to bring more people to salvation, then she kinda failed because it seems even more fishy. And like you said, I'd have to already be a Catholic to even believe this.

>>684365

>I mean, the devil was telling people to be good Catholics.

To quote him: Death, tribulations, and famine, O yes, they will surely come again!

He states a fact: there is almost no good catholic left. And he is happy as winnie the pooh.

>Not once did it mention Christ or devotion to Him but rather modernist methods of prayer.

<Rosary

<Modernist

<He doesn't know that modernists hate rosary and hate Mary even more

>I get what you're saying but if "mary" appeared to her to let her know she will be possessed in order to bring more people to salvation, then she kinda failed because it seems even more fishy.

Protestantism denied possibility of satisfactional sacrifice because it destroys only logical possibility of faith alone being true (that is Penal Substitutionary Sacrifice). That's why you don't grasp this possiblity.

>>684364

>So when Paul said pray unceasingly he had a 16th century form of prayer in mind?

13th century. Which was given directly by Mary to Saint Dominic. And Hail Mary (in repetitions, of three at least) is apostolic but that's beside the point.

>Or did he just mean to prayer continuously, not repetitively.

Christ prayed continuously by repetition in The Garden, why would we not follow this mode of prayer?

>I'm actually ok with calling Mary the mother of God and bless but I will never pray the rosary. Damn near idolatry and polytheism.

Learn what idolatry mean, ya ding

>>684427

>To quote him:

The only true thing the demon said was:

<Many believe that after life, everything is finished.

><He doesn't know that modernists hate rosary and hate Mary even more

Doesn't change a thing. My issue is that the demons are telling people to be good Catholics in a very preachy tone. Like, he is encouraging people and wants people to be saved.

>That's why you don't grasp this possiblity.

Doesn't make any sense. The crucifixion was to satisfy the wrath of God by turning it away from us to the spotless lamb as was done in the OT. Also, saying that we deny your concept of the atonement because it destroys sola fide is like me saying to you, you deny penal substitutions because it destroys your concept of salvation. We can point fingers all day but I believe in what I believe because of the bible.

>13th century

Why would God wait so long to reveal such an important form of prayer? I'll admit I don't know much about it but from that rosary thread I saw, it seems very important. Would God really wait 13 centurys to reveal it to His church?

>Christ prayed continuously by repetition in The Garden

You mean the garden of Gethsemane? That wasn't repetitive.

>Learn what idolatry mean, ya ding

You make this distinction between dulia and latria, but if you read the bible, there is no distinction. In the OT God is as angry at people for worshiping not serving of That gods. In fact luke 4:8 states that you shall not server or worship anyone else. If you don't give latria to mary, you certainly do give her proskuneó

>>684473

>The only true thing the demon said was:

*The only true thing THAT I BELIVE demon said was:

Here, now it's true.

>Doesn't change a thing. My issue is that the demons are telling people to be good Catholics in a very preachy tone.

He says that people ARE NOT good catholics and HE IS HAPPY BECAUSE OF IT.

winnie the pooh americans, why you have so little level of reading comprehension?

>Doesn't make any sense. The crucifixion was to satisfy the wrath of God by turning it away from us to the spotless lamb as was done in the OT.

Told you. You don't get that sacrifice of Cross was not "Warth of Father on Son" but "Love of Son to Father".

> Also, saying that we deny your concept of the atonement because it destroys sola fide is like me saying to you, you deny penal substitutions because it destroys your concept of salvation.

Except penal substitution is only way sola fide make sense. And penal substitution is anti-biblical.

Also: Colossians 1:24

>Why would God wait so long to reveal such an important form of prayer? I'll admit I don't know much about it but from that rosary thread I saw, it seems very important. Would God really wait 13 centurys to reveal it to His church?

Because God is all-wise and don't bound by time. "Thousand years as one day" etc.

Rosary was given in those last days because it was most fitting. It was given to Dominic to fight albigensian heresy and reform world.

>You mean the garden of Gethsemane? That wasn't repetitive.

And he prayed the third time, saying the selfsame word.

>You make this distinction between dulia and latria, but if you read the bible, there is no distinction.

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Civ. Dei x), that "the homage due to man, of which the Apostle spoke when he commanded servants to obey their masters and which in Greek is called dulia, is distinct from latria which denotes the homage that consists in the worship of God."

>In the OT God is as angry at people for worshiping not serving of That gods.

Except the closest person to worship false gods are protestants because they are only one who seriously think that anyone does that.

Also, God is pissed in OT that you don't give dulia to your parents and other superiors.

>In fact luke 4:8 states that you shall not server or worship anyone else.

Both verbs in this text (latreuein and proskynein) refer to latria, the worship due to God alone. It says nothing about dulia and hyperdulia, which are given to saints and to our Lady.

> If you don't give latria to mary, you certainly do give her proskuneó

Except we give her hyperdulia. Alone.

>>684716

>The only true thing THAT I BELIVE demon said was

Yeah, there's been a rise in New atheism. The devil is the king of lies. He knows how to use his words and will sprinkle a tiny bit of truth in his life to get people on board. But even if the devil didn't say this, it's something I already believe and most people in fact believe that faith in God is dying.

>He says that people ARE NOT good catholics and HE IS HAPPY BECAUSE OF IT.

Sure, the devil is happy that people aren't good Christians, but doesn't mean that he's not encouraging people to become Catholics. He's using the fact that he's the devil to make people become Catholic. Kinda like reverse psychological. Like, he knows he's the devil and people don't like him so he tells people he doesn't like Catholicism so people will join the Catholic church thinking it's against him. BUT THAT'S EXACTLY HOW HE WANTS YOU TO THINK!

>Told you. You don't get that sacrifice of Cross was not "Warth of Father on Son" but "Love of Son to Father".

Nope,

<For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21

And

<Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

Galatians 3:13

>And penal substitution is anti-biblical.

Look at the above two verses.

>Thousand years as one day

Then there should be no issue with you believing a in Protestantism even if it reached its climax in the 16th century because "Thousand years as one day"

>And he prayed the third time, saying the selfsame word.

He was praying for the same thing. Not being repetitive. I think it's a false equivocation to compare the rosary to Christ who was in the garden and emotionally distressed because He knew is fate and asks God repeatedly for the cup to pass.

>On the contrary, Augustine says

Augustine didn't even know the original language and based most of his arguments on the latin when the original language didn't help his point.

>Except the closest person to worship false gods are protestants because they are only one who seriously think that anyone does that.

Doesn't make any sense.

>Both verbs in this text (latreuein and proskynein) refer to latria

Latria is a Latin word and to make country distinction like this would be to go against the bible and anachronistic interpretations. Galatians 4:8 talks about serving false God. Greek word being douleuo and in Latin dulia. Do you really think they could say to God "I wasn't giving them latria, but dulia. So it's ok right?" Nope, you would be thrown in the flames.

>Except we give her hyperdulia.

Do you know what proskuneó means?

>>684735

>Yeah, there's been a rise in New atheism. The devil is the king of lies. He knows how to use his words and will sprinkle a tiny bit of truth in his life to get people on board. But even if the devil didn't say this, it's something I already believe and most people in fact believe that faith in God is dying.

And he was also right when said that True Faith (Catholicism) is neglected and fewer and fewer believe Church's teaching.

>Sure, the devil is happy that people aren't good Christians, but doesn't mean that he's not encouraging people to become Catholics. He's using the fact that he's the devil to make people become Catholic.

He was forced to say it to exorcists who already is a catholic. It wasn't public announcement it was information gathered from torture chamber.

>Kinda like reverse psychological. Like, he knows he's the devil and people don't like him so he tells people he doesn't like Catholicism so people will join the Catholic church thinking it's against him. BUT THAT'S EXACTLY HOW HE WANTS YOU TO THINK!

Devil hate Catholicism. Every satanic movement (Enlightenment, Masonry, Satanism, Protestants) hate Catholicism. Devil do not want to anyone to be Catholic.

And seeing you, it works.

>2 Corinthians 5:21

Absolutely nothing about warth on Son. https://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-third-most-important-passage-in.html

>Galatians 3:13

Absolutely nothing about warth on Son. http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2013/06/in-what-way-did-jesus-become-curse-for.html

>Look at the above two verses.

That in fact are anti-protestant (like all possible Bible verses)?

>Then there should be no issue with you believing a in Protestantism even if it reached its climax in the 16th century because "Thousand years as one day"

Except that would mean that there was NO CHURCH and NO SALVATION for those 1500 years.

You seem to don't grasp a difference between Faith and Devotion.

>He was praying for the same thing. Not being repetitive.

repetition

the act of repeating, or doing, saying, or writing something again; repeated action, performance, production, or presentation.

>I think it's a false equivocation to compare the rosary to Christ who was in the garden and emotionally distressed because He knew is fate and asks God repeatedly for the cup to pass.

Christ was perfectly ordered man, he never ever was irrational. Even in fear he knew exactly what he was doing. And he was meditating upon mystery of his Death. Rosary does the same.

>Augustine didn't even know the original language and based most of his arguments on the latin when the original language didn't help his point.

Then let me use Greeks since Augustine btfo you.

Nicea II

But Christians in no respect honour images as gods, neither in their veneration do they take anything from the true adoration due to God. Nay, rather they are led by the hand, as it were, by the image to God, while under their visible representations they honour the Saints with the veneration of dulia (doulikws) as the friends of God; asking for their mediation (mesiteuousin) to the Lord. And if perchance some have strayed, from their lack of knowledge, in their veneration, it were better to teach such an one, rather than that the veneration of the august images should be banished from the Church.

>Doesn't make any sense.

Who is closer to X: people who never do X and don't even think of doing X or people who think that others do X?

>Latria is a Latin word and to make country distinction like this would be to go against the bible and anachronistic interpretations.

<Interpretation held by Church since her conception

<anachronistic

> Galatians 4:8 talks about serving false God.

Gal 4:8 talks about being slaves to false god. Also, since we speak about Galatians:

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve (douleuete) one another.

According to your anachronistic lack of distinction, Paul said that CHristians should worship other Christians as God.

>Do you know what proskuneó means?

You do not. Proskuneó is liturgical worship.