/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Humans are fallible. The Church remains.

As St. Jerome says, barely one in a hundred priests behaved in a manor befitting the infinite dignity of their office. Were the Israelites or are the protestants any better?

>>676304

>>676306

Wouldn't you expect the Church to be holy though? Yes we're all sinners, but as Christians we ought to be transformed by Christ, we should be substantially different from the world as it was in times past (that includes the evils of Israel) since we were chosen out of the world. We shall be known by our fruits, and a false prophet cannot bear good fruit.

You know Muslims often say the same thing about their religion "Oh well humans are fallible. Islam remains." It sounds like a cop out. Once again, good fruit and bad fruit. The Catholic Church repeatedly time and time again gives off more bad fruit than good.

And the thing is, these aren't simple sins, these are major sins. Killings, sex abuse, persecutions. Time and time again too. And many times it's the upper level clergy encouraging or even participating in these things or at the very least not speaking up against them. At times it seems as if the whole Catholic Church is responsible.

Protestants and Orthodox have also done some pretty bad things, but not on the scale of the Catholic Church.

>>676302

>numerous corrupt popes

Humans aren't infallible, none of these have gotten any praise from the Church either.

>massacre the population of jerusalem during the first crusade (1099 A.D.)

That was by no means a command from the Church itself.

Besides, they were just Jews :^)

>genocide the cathars in southern france during the albigensian crusade (1209 A.D. - 1229 A.D.)

Literally nothing wrong with this, and any protestant would've done the same seeing as how America was burning witches like nothing.

>persecute john wycliffe and his followers for translating the bible

Implying that KJV-onlyists wouldn't burn anybody translating the bible himself.

>exile and force convert the jews in spain and portugal, and else where

They were not really forced to convert by violence, they could eitehr leave or convert.

Again, where is the problem here?

>genocide and force convert the native americans

You mean the protestants right, or are you being retarded on purpose?

>repress scientific advancement

Pff yeah I know right? We could've been living on Mars right now if not for le ebil church…

>massacre 20,000 french protestants on st. bartholomew's day

Yes, and? :^) Also implying that protestants didn't do the same

>overrun with homosexual clergy, even priests get caught having gay orgies in the vatican by swiss guard from time to time

So men are fallible, aight we get that.

By the way, how are those female gay priests going for you guys?

>genocide and force convert hundreds of thousands of orthodox christian serbs during world war II

As if a protty would even care about orthodox, only to shit on catholics right.

Anyway it was more about ethnicity than religion, and Serbs did the same with others.

But hey the narrative right?

>massive amount of pedophile clergy molest children, mostly young boys between the ages of 11 and 14

Funny how nothing of this has been approved by the Church and only done by fallible men.

>have connections to rwandan genocide

Now we just writing fanfic but hey narrative.

>The Catholic Church repeatedly time and time again gives off more bad fruit than good.

No it doesn't. Gross exaggerations don't help your argument. The Catholic Church has done far more good for Europe than bad.

>>676313

>RCC is overtaken with corruption

>RCC does something wrong

>The Pope, who is supposedly chosen by the Holy Spirit, endorses the corruption and wrongdoings

<HURRR ITS JUST FALLIBLE MEN HURRR

<HURRR LIKE YOU WOULDNT DO THE SAME TU QUOQUE :DDDDDDD

>>676315

wtf i love the Southern Baptist Church now, time to go to my mega church to listen to Joel Osteen talk about his new private lear jet

>>676315

Great argument, reminds me of my 3 year old cousin.

>>676315

>The Pope, who is supposedly chosen by the Holy Spirit, endorses the corruption and wrongdoings

Chosen with the guidance of the Holy Spirit yes, but you can choose to ignore guidance.

<HURRR ITS JUST FALLIBLE MEN HURRR

But they actually are.

<HURRR LIKE YOU WOULDNT DO THE SAME TU QUOQUE :DDDDDDD

I never said that, I said that you actually DID massacre lots of catholics.

The issue is the nature of Catholicism compared to Protestantism.

Where the Catholic church is one giant organization that kind of has to take responsibility for any bad things committed in the past and all misdeeds of the clergy committed in any given country, as a Protestant you only worry about your small specific church and don't feel associated with anything outside of that.

Protestant churches are either completely independent or part of smaller (typically only national) conferences. On top of that, if your local church starts doing something you dislike (female priests, acceptance of homos…) or is associated with some kind of scandal, you can simply just leave and go find a new church next door. From that moment on, you feel like your denomination has absolutely nothing at all to do with what happened at that other church. If something happens at a certain church that is part of a national conferences, it can simply just be kicked out.

I also feel like a lot of Protestants don't take responsibility for some of the things their churches did throughout history.

The Catholic church though is very different. You can't just leave if you dislike the direction the church is going, at best you can find a traditional Latin mass but you are still part of that same body. If a scandal happens in a Catholic parish somewhere in Africa, they are still a part of the same church as a believer in the US.

I would say that the one somewhat legitimate complain you have, are the popes themselves. The idea that the successor to the Apostle Peter could be somebody you couldn't even call a Christian in good faith, throws serious shade at the entire organization. It's not just like they were "fallible men" but legitimately up there with some of the most evil kings.

And even if Catholics don't like to hear it, ultimately these men decide on the Catholic church's future. Once you accept John Henry Newman's idea of dogma as an acorn growing over time, why would it not be possible for that dogma to develop in a direction you dislike? Look at the current pope's comments on hell or Amoris laetitia, and you have to start wondering if you really want to commit yourself to where the Catholic church is going. These fallible men that are in charge of the church seem to be leading it into an awfully fallible direction.

>>676322

>Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Jesus didn't say "They're hypocrites so don't listen to them, go and create a new church", he said "observe whatever they tell you but do not copy their works". When Priests fail to live up to the faith that is on them, the Pope sits on the seat of St Peter so he must be listened to, but that doesn't mean you need to follow him off the edge of a cliff.

>>676325

>These fallible men that are in charge of the church seem to be leading it into an awfully fallible direction.

The gates of hell will not prevail against it and there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. There is no point leaving unless you want to be damned, because no other Church can offer salvation.

>>676327

Huh, so you admit you're basically the Pharisees now. Great, the first step towards a solution is acknowledging that you've become the people Jesus was firmly opposed to.

>>676329

Jesus always acknowledge the authority of the Priestly caste even when they didn't practice the faith properly. He never said "If you don't like what they're saying just schism and make a new church". The only people Jesus would be opposed to would be the ones who think they can just leave the body of Christ and make their own denomination with beer and hookers whenever they decide that certain doctrine is inconvenient, namely Protestants

>>676322

>It's funny though because whenever the prots did something stupid or were overtaken with corruption you'll point to it as proof that they're of Satan, but whenever you guys did anything shitty or are overtaken with corruption you'll just go

Not really I'm just saying that protestants did some massacres too.

OP was stating things that are also common in protestant churches but for narrative's sake only uses them to shit on the catholic Church.

>>676302

Even as an Ortho

Half of what is listed here is retarded and made up

>>676337

Despite the many Othos and Catholics on this board, I as a Catholic think you Orthos are alright, I would call you guys distant brothers.

>>676330

But Christianity literally formed in direct opposition to the Pharisees and Sadducees, Jesus did start his own Church.

>>676302

They didn't genocide indians so much as enslave them, but that was mostly just because they were Spanish

>>676346

Jesus reformed Judaism to what God intended it to be. The Pharisees and Sadducees excommunicated themselves by their unwillingness to accept Jesus teachings. "Judaism" would later be reconstructed 500 years later by pulling the concept of the "oral torah" of their asses

>>676348

The Spanish just screwed them into a new race. All killing was due to conflict, which I will admit, the Spanish kinda started. Still though, the natives were barbaric and the Spanish did them a favor by showing them Christ.

>>676348

The pope relaxing prohibitions on slavery helped

>>676402

winnie the pooh off, Santa Muerte is a fringe movement and you know it.

Nowhere in Scripture does Christ promise that the reprobate will not be in His Church, however, He does affirm they will be separated from the elect on Judgement.

>>676322

We have God's assurance His mercy (and thus, His authority) will always be with His Son, no matter how the seed of His Son falters.

Psalm 88: 27-35

>>676402

You cant deny that Latin America is far better off regarding the faith than Protestant Europe, US

Nice list of black legends, lack of context and even some discredited 17th century protestant propaganda.

I especially like the part about scientific advancement, fedora tier. Why don't you read what the Galielo trial was about?

Why don't you read who the cathars were?

Why don't you study who were the men of the first Crusade?

Why don't you actually study history instead of being a drone and mentioning things you know only surface level?

>>676530

The Christ himself.

>>676313

These. Are you me? These would have been my responses if you didn't beat me to them.

>>676309

>People are transformed by Christ, institutions must also be

Non sequitur, the institution will only be so good as its members. Also some of the bad things you suggested in the OP is nonsense. Cathars and pagan Indians in the Americas are both incompatible forces, one of outright heresy, and the other of crude, civilization destroying animism.

Not a Catholic btw, just don't care about the liberal sob story version of history.

>>676309

>implying protestant and orthodox heresy isn't worse than the things listed

<it's ok when we do it ;^)

>>676302

>genocide the cathars in southern france during the albigensian crusade (1209 A.D. - 1229 A.D.)

>persecute john wycliffe and his followers for translating the bible (1382 A.D. - 1415 A.D.)

>exile and force convert the jews in spain and portugal, and else where (1478 A.D. - 1834 A.D.)

based

>>676351

The oral torah was a thing back in Jesus' day. Those are the traditions of the elders, which Jesus and his disciples are repeatedly breaking, unlike the actual laws of the written torah, which the scribes and pharisees would be teaching, when they sat in the seat of Moses (reading the scriptures to the people as commanded in deuteronomy 31:11)

The oral torah was written down as the mishnah in the two centuries after the destruction of the temple, but the traditions in it had been piling on and been taught by the rabbis at least for the 500 or so years since the return from the captivity in Babylon.

In that sense, the pharisees and sadducees would have excommunicated themselves by placing their own authority above the written word of God (making it void by their traditions; see Mark 7:13)

>>676302

>>numerous corrupt popes, most notably figures like for example pope alexander vi who is rumored to have bribed his way to the papacy and is known for his orgies and having fathered several children and who assassinated cardinals he didn't like

And yet, Dogma has never been corrupted. The substance of the Church has never changed as it is unchangable. Whether you want to admit that or not doesn't matter. Furthermore does the Grace flowing from the Sacraments not depend on the sin of the celebrant.

This thread is just meh.

>>676302

>numerous corrupt popes, most notably figures like for example pope alexander vi who is rumored to have bribed his way to the papacy and is known for his orgies and having fathered several children and who assassinated cardinals he didn't like (800s A.D. - renaissance period)

Meme.

>massacre the population of jerusalem during the first crusade (1099 A.D.)

Oh the Church itself did it and condoned it? Source pls.

>genocide the cathars in southern france during the albigensian crusade (1209 A.D. - 1229 A.D.)

Nothing wrong

>persecute john wycliffe and his followers for translating the bible (1382 A.D. - 1415 A.D.)

Nothing wrong

>exile and force convert the jews in spain and portugal, and else where (1478 A.D. - 1834 A.D.)

Nothing wrong

>genocide and force convert the native americans (1492 A.D. - 1760s A.D.)

Genocide? lel, it was done by the protestant US army

>repress scientific advancement (1560s A.D. - 1630s A.D.)

Lie.

>massacre 20,000 french protestants on st. bartholomew's day (1572 A.D.)

Nothing wrong

>overrun with homosexual clergy, even priests get caught having gay orgies in the vatican by swiss guard from time to time (A.D. 1940s - present)

That is an issue.

>genocide and force convert hundreds of thousands of orthodox christian serbs during world war II (A.D. 1941 - A.D. 1945)

Meme, muh 62 gazzilion serbs

>massive amount of pedophile clergy molest children, mostly young boys between the ages of 11 and 14 (A.D. 1950s - A.D. 1990s)

That is an issue

>have connections to rwandan genocide (A.D. 1994)

Outright lie.

>>678662

>there is nothing wrong with massaccering 20,000 christians, instead of rebuking them and letting God judge them, the post

>>676312

>10x bigger

umm no sweety. Catholics are about 1 billion, protties 700 million and orthodox about 300 million.

>10x as many scandals

Way more than that

>>678663

>Christians

How do you treat a deadly virus? Do you let it spread and let God judge the dead? Do you let a person who spreads heresy spread it around and send 10 people to hell or do you put him down before he can spread it?

Seriously, consider that question, would you choose to kill on person or let dozens of people go to hell?

And it's a moot point anyway, the protestant did the same amount of killing.

>>678669

Can you show me where the Bible says to kill heretics? It just says to mark them.

>>678669

>belief in the bible is a deadly virus

>>678686

>For this reason we observe that if the health of the whole body demands the excision of a member, through its being decayed or infectious to the other members, it will be both praiseworthy and advantageous to have it cut away. Now every individual person is compared to the whole community, as part to whole. Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and advantageous that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since “a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump” (1 Cor. 5:6).

>For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

>“A little leaven,” says: “Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.”

And before you mention Matthew 13:30

>Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord’s command, which is to be understood as referring to the case when the cockle cannot be plucked up without plucking up the wheat.

When you can pluck op the cockle without damaging the wheat, there is no reason not to do it.

>>678692

Which inerpretation of the Bible? Interpretation number 24125 of the reformed southeastern anabaptist true church of Christ?

>>676302

>>massacre the muslim/jewish population of jerusalem during the first crusade (1099 A.D.)

>>exile and force convert the jews in spain and portugal, and else where (1478 A.D. - 1834 A.D.)

>>genocide and force convert the native americans (1492 A.D. - 1760s A.D.)

>>repress scientific advancement (1560s A.D. - 1630s A.D.)

Those things are not that bad, rest is horrendous of course.

>>678665

>Way more than that

Not really, but no one really cares about protestant sects in other regions unless it's something Jim Jones-tier, whilst news about the Catholic Church spread like wildfire.

>>678700

Sooo… way does it say to execute them?

>>678763

>genocide and forced conversion aren't bad things

>treating our fellow human beings like trash is perfectly okay

>you should burn at the stake for daring to further our understanding of God's creation

Really representing the love of Christ there, eh buddy?

>>678945

Buddy, I’m hispanic and I absolutely have no care what the Spanish did to the natives. They might have done bad stuff, but in the end it was so they can see the light of Christ. The rest goes for what the other anon says. As much as it’s better to peacefully convert someone, sometimes people don’t change. And we can’t just let them harm other Christians while they practice their barbaric beliefs.

>>679073

>Dey wuz good innocent colonist boyz minding their own business but the red man kept trying to keep them down

Surely if the the Americas hadn't been conquered Christians around the globe would be being attacked by radical Nahuaist terrorists right now.

*sarcasm

>>679086

I never implied that, and if they never came the natives would never be Christian. Tell me anon, are you really Christian? Or are you here to hate on Catholics?

>>676302

>>genocide and force convert the native americans (1492 A.D. - 1760s A.D.)

Which one? South America is full on Native americans, and the colonists took indian wives etc. The only ones who were genocided (by protestants) live nowadays in reserves in North America.

Also 'forced' conversion, as if 500 Spaniards could bring down an Empire without the native population greatly supporting them.

>>679205

Regardless of if or not, I don't think such methods would have been sanctioned by Jesus considering all that stuff he said about loving, casting the first stone, and dying by the sword.

My honest analysis of it is western Christendom turned really shitty around the time of colonialism through all the bitterness that was sown during the religious wars and natives got the short end of the stick by having received less tolerance for their native culture compared to peoples who were converted in previous ages who may have been able to integrate their culture into the religion more, not denying that Europeans did not see their share of brutality at the hands of Christian institutions or that some pre-Columbian traditions haven't survived either.

I have heard that Catholicism is a mixture of Babylonian paganism that was evident in Rome and Christianity.

>>680241

Have you ever met a Catholic, been into a Catholic church, studied Christian history, read the Bible or read the Wikipedia entry on either Catholicism or Christianity?

>>678844

>Jim Jones

The Atheist Commie?

>>680241

Its basically people who want to make a political party out of Christianity. So, that's the kind of thing that results.

>>679208

>The only ones who were genocided (by protestants) live nowadays in reserves in North America.

just putting this out here to kill this myth

<hey Jacob, did you see that Jesus? He must have been the Messiah!

>nah, he was crucified by the Romans

<but his followers say he rose from the dead! surely that must count for something

>his followers? pssh, you mean the guys that betrayed him and denied him? I can't get behind a guy who would associate with traitors

>>676339

We were brothers until 1054, broski.

>the lower your denomination's kill count, the truer its doctrine is

wtf i'm a unitarian now

>>680308

I sense anger in your tone, brother.

>>680749

I'm also Orthodox. You're not our brothers in Christ, but servants of the devil, and heterodox. You do not have the Son, since you make Him out to be one with the Father, and offer Him as an unleavened sacrifice like the Jews's satanic meals. As such, you do not have the Father either.

>>680751

>You do not have the Son, since you make Him out to be one with the Father

<literally denying the trinity

>>680770

You deny the Trinity, by adhering to the heresy of modalism, and making the Son cause of the Spirit like the Father is. Either the Son has the same hypostatic properties as the Father and so is the Father, either the spiration of the Spirit is an essential property and the Spirit spirates Himself too.

>>680757

Using the same verses as the Sabellians do to support the same heresy, wonderful. Your blasphemes will judge you at the eschaton.

>>680751

>(USER WAS WARNED FOR BREAKING RULE 2)

He should be banned for rule 3, not 2

>>680771

>You deny the Trinity, by adhering to the heresy of modalism, and making the Son cause of the Spirit like the Father is

You are offended that we believe the Son is equal with God and accuse us of Modalism for it, just like Arius

>Either the Son has the same hypostatic properties as the Father and so is the Father

The Father and the Son are distinguished by the filiation of the Son, which does not apply to the Father, who instead begets.

>either the spiration of the Spirit is an essential property and the Spirit spirates Himself too

The Father is not alone because He is love, but when love is alone it is narcissistic, so by nature in eternity past He begot the Son. But love is obsessive when it has but one other object, so by nature in eternity past they spirated the Spirit. Thus, the Spirit generates no one, because love is complete in God. It is not spiration which is essential, but the trinity that is an essential property. It wasn't what you seem to believe, that the Father is above and beyond the Son and the Holy Spirit, and at some point chose to create them, but all three exist by nature. The trinity as an essential attribute proves the double procession of the Spirit because the only difference between generation and spiration is that the former is immediate, the latter mediate. If the Spirit does not proceed from the Father and the Son, He would not be the Spirit, because there would be no difference between Him and the Son.

>>680751

>unleavened sacrifice

the first Eucharist was unleavened. Matthew 26:26 describes a passover meal.

bump

>>678225

Nah they just killed Catholics for not translating the bible.

>>684660

That aside these threads are rather pointless the energy you are expending is energy you could be using to pray to our lord and savior. In that way we are all sinner because we put arguing semantics and old grudges over our Lord God.

>>678225

>If you can find me one example of a KJV onlyist burning someone alive I’ll pray a rosary.

Of course I cannot find an example.

By the time this denomination existed lynching was long gone.

I'll still bet 100 ETH that given the power Steven Anderson-tier people will ban the production of other translations and put sanctions on doing it.

>>684683

So...what about the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches?

We share about the same values yet no contact with the Germanic tribes was every made except for some raids and mercenary activities.

I also struggle to remember any values we didn't have pre-10th century that the Germanics did and suddenly got integrated.