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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 108203d4cb48050⋯.jpeg (29.23 KB, 660x495, 4:3, DQmYY68hQEHCb37a9P7PoZ9mS….jpeg)

e5a927 No.675597

>Dad is an elder in a conservative Presbyterian congregation

>I grew up in the Reformed faith

>memorized the shorter catechism as a kid

>loved theology and read everything I could get my hands on

>end up reading Reformed Baptist works and begoming Credobaptist

>go to a conservative Reformed college

>major in Philosophy

>not a practical major but I love it

>I love Augustine, although I only read selections from him beyond City of God and Confessions

>get a scholarship to a prominent Reformed seminary

>start summer classes and take Church History, Early Church to the Reformation

>read a few chapters in the beginning of Schaff's Ante-Nicene Fathers

>Man, I love this stuff

>Keep reading

>End up reading all ANF over the summer, staying up late into the night

>Over the next semester I'm swamped, so I drop a class just so I can continue reading Nicene/Post-Nicene Fathers

>Realize that they believed differently than the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

>wtf, heretics

>actually, no, I kept reading

>start reading John of Damascus and asking the (well-known) Historical Theology professor questions

>I don't get answers and he finally tells me that Apostolic Fathers abandoned the original faith (as defined in the 1646 WCF)

>Have a hard time reconciling the historical development Canon with what I've been taught

>Finally a pastor on the seminary board of directors, two professors, and my current Reformed Baptist pastor sit down with me to discuss problems

>I'm told that if I continue to question Reformed interpretations of Scripture in the light of the Early Fathers, continue "sowing seeds of doubt", a defend the (Lutheran view) presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, I will lose my scholarship, as well as be asked to leave the seminary.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a papist, nor do I think that doctrines such as Purgatory or the Immaculate Conception are remotely biblical. I agree that indulgences and the treasury of merit is rediculous. I just don't know how to reconcile my beliefs with the Early Father's position on baptism, the Lord's Table, church government, salvation, etc. I don't want to repudiate my Reformed faith, as that would mean the loss of family relationships, friends, my church, and really everything I've known and held.

James White, R.C. Sproul, Todd Friel, etc. haven't been convincing, nor do they seem to be able to reconcile the absence of Reformed doctrines in the Early Church. (Like the RPW, for example.)

Does anyone have any other resources I could look to? I've reached out to as many professors as I could.

0defe5 No.675598

>Realize that they believed differently than the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

Could you go into more detail about this? I'm not asking for massive walls of text but what sort of differences have you noticed?


e5a927 No.675600

>>675598

Sure, so for starters, the XXX:2 of the LBCF

>In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to his Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of himself by himself upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same. So that the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, injurious to Christ's own sacrifice the alone propitiation for all the sins of the elect. (Hebrews 9:25, 26, 28; 1 Corinthians 11:24;Matthew 26:26, 27)

The Lord's Supper is where I first started having a hard time. I went into ANF expecting to find references to the memorial of the Lord's Supper, and honestly, it being done in a casual manner, like a love feast. I don't want to give a wall of text, but here's the first few references I grappled with. There are more.

Clement of Rome (~A.D. 80)

>"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."

>"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."

Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 80-110)

>"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

>"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

>"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."


1a3921 No.675602

>>675597

>I don't get answers and he finally tells me that Apostolic Fathers abandoned the original faith (as defined in the 1646 WCF)

Actually that's not possible as the 1646 WCF didn't exist at the time. If they abandoned something they abandoned the faith that is laid out in the word of God itself, as that already existed. You wouldn't want to base your theology on anything but the incorruptible word, as you know that it never changes and isn't subject to personal interpretation or culture of the author.

>I will lose my scholarship, as well as be asked to leave the seminary.

Seminaries these days are full of textual critics who doubt the everlasting word of God. The best way to get educated is to be sent out from an IFB church, not a parachurch org. So perhaps taking your leave would be best regardless of the reason. Especially if you're not secure on using the received text of the NT and prone to think that it's movable.


e5a927 No.675604

>>675602

>Seminaries these days are full of textual critics who doubt the everlasting word of God.

You may be surprised to learn, then that there are many Reformed within the seminaries who defend the Received Text. Granted, I haven't met many faculty to who do, but I have met many students. This is because it was the stance of the Reformers.

>The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. (2nd LBCF I:8)

>The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical (WCF I:8)


eb9203 No.675605

Sounds like you should look into Eastern Orthodoxy. We too deny the Papacy and the crazy doctrines it produced like the ones you mentioned. The difference being we follow the early Church Fathers and do not say they lost the original Faith.

Sorry I know you said only baptist and Prots. I just felt I had to say this. God bless and may you find answers.


1a3921 No.675606

>>675604

>Granted, I haven't met many faculty to who do, but I have met many students.

Why am I not surprised. Reminds me kind of like what you see on the regular campuses, all the professors are hard progressives but the students aren't. Makes you wonder who hired these guys in particular, doesn't it. And who was excluded from consideration for the position. Anyway the main point is I wouldn't have much to learn from a guy who preaches a mutable word of God, except what NOT to do.


622a4e No.675607

>>675597

This is what you should do. Here me out now.

Drop everything and become Catholic.


0defe5 No.675609

>>675600

You'll have to forgive my ignorance but doesn't the Reformed Faith rely on Sola Scriptura for authority? I know Calvin sometimes backed his arguments up from Patristics but I am also aware he was wary of some of their writings, particularly those attributed to Ignatius. Some of the Apostolic Fathers are even at odds with one another. I remember being surprised to read in some of them such as Clement 1 pronouncements that sounded very much like Sola Fide, something Catholics and Orthodox are very much against. I believe some of them even developed heterodox views late in life, Origen was said to believe in reincarnation. What I am saying is is if you are Reformed you should take the ANF and NF for what they are but remember that the Bible always has the last word.

On the other hand from what you have said about your professors basically telling you to shut up or be thrown out on your ear I find that intolerable. Asking questions should not be grounds for expulsion. As purported Reformers their predecessors asked questions too and you should be able to as well.


e5a927 No.675613

File: 7c1ec5422f652e1⋯.png (1.57 MB, 1080x1080, 1:1, Quotes_Creator_20180715_12….png)

>>675607

>Drop everything and become Catholic.

Thank you but no thanks. Off the top of my head, my problems include

>Aquinas using Greek Philosophy to explain the faith

>"Doctrinal Development"

>Difference on original sin between Augustine (adopted by Catholicism) and the Fathers

>Purgatory

>Mary, Queen of the Universe

>Papal infallibility

>oops, let's add the filioque

>Novus Ordo breaks most continuity with the liturgy of the Early Church

>Jesuits are gay

>Charismatics and pro-sodomites are tolerated

>Praying to literal statues

>Ecumenicism

>>675609

>You'll have to forgive my ignorance but doesn't the Reformed Faith rely on Sola Scriptura for authority?

Yes, but it's not solo Scriptura. Scripture is our final authority, but tradition is not altogether tossed out, otherwise each person would have a different interpretation of Scripture. My pastor always said "One interpretation, many applications" regarding hermeneutics, and looking at church history helps us with that.

>https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/role-tradition/

>I know Calvin sometimes backed his arguments up from Patristics but I am also aware he was wary of some of their writings, particularly those attributed to Ignatius. Some of the Apostolic Fathers are even at odds with one another. I remember being surprised to read in some of them such as Clement 1 pronouncements that sounded very much like Sola Fide, something Catholics and Orthodox are very much against.

Pic related regarding Clement. Yes, Calvin was understandably critical of the ECF, and they are certainly not infallible nor inspired. I'm not taking the ECF as Gospel truth, only I'm seeking some sort of hermeneutical ancestors for my own beliefs. For example, I don't honestly see the solas in the Fathers; nearly unilaterally, salvation and the faith seemed to be more complex than being reduced down to a few quick statements.

What's going through my mind is "how much influence did Aquinas, who adopted secular and foreign ways of categorizing theology, and Augustine, who developed his theology in relative isolation from the the rest of the church, have on what I currently believe, and how much of it is the true Apostolic faith, entrusted to the Apostles."

>On the other hand from what you have said about your professors basically telling you to shut up or be thrown out on your ear I find that intolerable.

I understand; I think what's been concerning to them is that I've been raising questions in every class, from Greek I where I was asking about the providential preservation of Scripture (something the Reformers believed but we don't seem to today), to the Filioque, baptism in the Early Church, Communion, etc. I think that since they didn't really see me before I started learning about this, they think I've just come to seminary to debate.

Also, the scholarship that I'm on is essentially for young men wanting to be Reformed pastors. They understandibly don't want me to use that money, then graduate and become a Lutheran or Anglican when it could've gone to a future PCA or ARBCA pastor.

>>675605

>Sounds like you should look into Eastern Orthodoxy. We too deny the Papacy and the crazy doctrines it produced like the ones you mentioned. The difference being we follow the early Church Fathers and do not say they lost the original Faith.

Honestly, I just don't see Theosis in the early Father's, not toll houses. Also, the lack of evangelism I see in Orthodoxy has turned me off to it. Granted, Franky Schaeffer has been my main exposure to it, as his parents and my grandparents were friends, and so we followed his progressive lying and apostasy.


e5a927 No.675614

>>675613

*nor toll Houses


d2bf68 No.675617

You should not cling onto prestige and family relationships if they are getting in the way of your understanding of God's Truth. Jesus explicitly asked for children to rebel against their families to follow Him.


1a3921 No.675618

>>675613

Things wrong with Catholicism thread?

—Works salvation (which is another gospel, Galatians 1:6-9)

—Nullify Scripture through personal tradition (Mark 7:7-13)

—Strange doctrine of pedobaptism (Acts 8:36-37, Acts 2:41-42)

—Idolatry (Exodus 20:4, 1 Jn. 5:21, etc)

—Vain repetitions (against Matthew 6:5-8)

—Grant themselves title of Father (against Matthew 23:9)


d84ebe No.675621

>>675597

Never begin a thread asking for help only from specific denoms, because it is a sure bet you will get everyone you didn't ask for.


4303da No.675627

File: 7d9f1b21e68ad28⋯.png (467.37 KB, 881x637, 881:637, Screenshot 2018-07-15 at 5….png)

>>675613

>Aquinas using Greek Philosophy to explain the faith

Every Church Fathers did that though. Literally the Bible itself does, read John 1:1 the Logos was a Greek concept before.

>"Doctrinal Development"

Funny you should say that considering the fact that "Orthodox" now allow contraception and divorce + remarriage which was utterly condemned in the Early Church. Looks like the "Orthodox" are the ones who truly encourage "doctrinal development."

>Difference on original sin between Augustine (adopted by Catholicism) and the Fathers

The Catholic Church doesn't teach original guilt though like Augustine did, actually it's Protestants that teach that.

>Purgatory

Purgatory is simply the Latin conception of the Eastern idea of "final theosis." The doctrine of purgatory is in both the Catholic and "Orthodox" Churches, just with different ideas about it. Eastern Catholics tend to teach the same thing as Eastern Orthodox do regarding the doctrine. The Church Fathers lay the foundation for it.

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:5, 392 A.D.)

>Mary, Queen of the Universe

The Eastern Orthodox teach this too.

http://theorthodoxfaith.com/article/mary-as-the-queen-of-heaven/

Mary being Queen of Heaven and earth relates to her being the mother of Jesus, who is King of heaven and earth, the one on the throne of David. If you actually read the Bible you would know that the Queen was the King's mother (Jeremiah 13:18, 2 Kings 10:13).

>oops, let's add the filioque

The Latin Fathers taught the filioque from day one:

http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.com/2009/08/filioque.html

Also, the Council of Florence (1431 A.D. -1449 A.D.) further clarifies it:

https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

>Accusing Church of liberalizing

The Church condemns faggotry, contraception, baby murder in the womb, divorce, female clergy, and all the like. Yeah I agree the Church has been infected with Modernists this last half century, I agree that faggot clergy is a huge problem, but the Church is the Church. She has gone through hard times before. The "Orthodox" Church at times promotes ecumenism more than the Catholic Church, they're literally a part of the World Council of Churches which is made up by a bunch of Protestants. The Eastern Orthodox Church is also now being infected by modernists and homosexuals. It took a little longer but they're experiencing it now too.

>Praying to literal statues

Ok now you're just acting retarded.


2890a7 No.675631

>>675627

no, the problem is that the catholic church claims to be against it despite not actually doing anything about it. so catholic and protestant are effectively the same in fruits.

nothing you said struck me as clerical, nor reflects anything productive.


969f72 No.675637

>>675597

That sounds like you're getting closer to Lutheranism. You might want to read some Lutheran sources.


b273cc No.675660

>>675597

>rediculous

>scholar

LARP


a06c0d No.675723

The reformed scholar James White seems to have a good grasp of the Church Fathers, maybe consider some of his stuff


bb24a7 No.675726

File: 1c1c600737f9bf1⋯.png (1.04 MB, 864x2732, 216:683, proof.png)

>>675597

>know how to reconcile my beliefs with the Early Father's position on baptism

It's not as conclusive as professors presented as.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=57171311329

>the Lord's Table

It only really became dogmatically literal about the 9th century, after a debate hosted by Charlies the bald. Even Didache sees it as "spiritual food" rather than just a permission of cannibalism.

>church government

Pic related.




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