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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: d96703fad63a63d⋯.png (61.67 KB, 210x267, 70:89, john-calvin.png)

421183 No.665411

What is wrong with Calvinism?

aa270f No.665414

Reformed theology or pop evangelical "Calvinism"?

Both wrong, often for different reasons


421183 No.665417

>>665414

Reformed theology, genuinely curious as to what its faults are as I'm new to Christianity in general.


429bab No.665420

1 Tim 2:4 mostly


429bab No.665421

>>665411

Gen 3 says we have freedom now, but we must choose to give it up and let God live in us. Calvinism misses the first half.


aa270f No.665424

>>665417

Honestly if your new it's not necessarily a good idea to dive into all of this controversial stuff. Start by reading your Bible and studying early Church history. Wherever you end up you'll always be grateful for a firm beginning.

If you do want to pursue this though here are a few suggestions and links. Begin with the Gospels, Romans, and Jude, these are the primary things that will be discussed in conversations regarding the soteriology of Calvinism, which isn't all that Calvin was about but is usually all anyone cares about.

Kabane is one of my favorite Orthos and I think these videos would be useful:

https://youtu.be/BojLXnW2hw8 This is Kabanes quick explanation of the differences between the Orthodox view of justification and Protestant views, not necessarily about Calvinism but something of a primer. It's also not an argument so much as an explanation so it's a helpful start on relevant topics.

https://youtu.be/88cCB-5EW0o This is Kabane talking about Romans 9 which will come up in every single conversation about Calvinism that goes on for more than a few second. He goes through it and brings up some Old Testament references that many miss. You could continue your Scripture reading by reading the Old Testament books that he references.

Some other videos I would recommend more than those though, as I do think reading the Bible entirely and studying it is a better start than studying debates, are about the Bible in general:

https://youtu.be/ATOs9z4equw This is him talking about reading the Bible as a whole, a good thing to think about before doing that, which you should.

https://youtu.be/r74Sr6H44Go This is him talking about inerrancy from an Orthodox view. Many are confused and think we don't hold to inerrancy, but we do in the proper way.

Beyond studying the Bible the next best step is reading the Apostolic Fathers, to get an image of what the Church that was first delivered the Bible believed and acted like. My suggested readings to start that would be the seven letters of Ignatius, the Didache, and the letter and martyrdom of Polycarp


b9b43d No.665428

>>665411

Besides being a heresy?


421183 No.665429

>>665424

Very interesting stuff, I'm planning on joining the Orthodox Church but was curious as to what made people want to become Calvinists, when it seems to fundamentally contradict things I've already read in the bible.


1180c5 No.665431

File: 07c9b8fb618bd22⋯.jpg (23.08 KB, 660x517, 60:47, bgome galvinist.jpg)

Nothing


aa270f No.665433

>>665429

It's a difficult topic that I can't really do justice, especially because I'm not studied enough in traditional reformed theology. One thing that I see though is an unnecessary taking of extreme position on all sides. For instance Roman Catholics can take Thomist opinions that hardly oppose monergism and at all and Orthodox can take synergistic positions that aren't insanely based on man's works. It's popular right now in apostolic communities to take positions that portray salvation as something that is incredibly based on man's works and only pay lip service to the work of God in man's salvation, often this is puffed up by quotations from monastic literature that should be understood in it's own context, but we really do have a strong reliance on God's action in our salvation.

Another explanation I feel for Calvinism's current success, and maybe historical success but I'm not well read enough to say, is the impressive abilities of some of their prominent figures


164837 No.665435

By removing parts from God, it leaves no way it can interact with us.

The calvinistic God is distant and machinistic.

It's basically worshipping a set of rules. It breeds atheists because it's an autistic God who lacks Will.

No wonder the roundheads were calvinists. Calvinism is roman theological bureaucracy taking to the extreme.


429bab No.665453

>>665431

this meme is self-contradictory


70cb20 No.665463

File: db27de963c00fa7⋯.png (24.61 KB, 582x551, 582:551, infallibleDoctorines.PNG)

>>665414

The same thing with any reformed Church

t. former baptist reformed church now ROman Cahtolic


aa270f No.665470

>>665463

>The same thing with any reformed Church

What do you means by this

Also, kinda unrelated, is there an ex-cathedra list of ex-cathedra statements, or something to that effect? The picture reminded me of that question


70cb20 No.665480

File: 9998e73a5216dbe⋯.png (14.05 KB, 612x257, 612:257, Academic_magestrium.PNG)

File: 9f0b4bc1d16e5e7⋯.png (32.21 KB, 585x546, 15:14, Augustin_reformation.PNG)

File: 3919853b1c3ae3e⋯.png (12.37 KB, 681x175, 681:175, HailMary_SecretPassword.PNG)

File: 7c9d9ec44a4acb1⋯.png (35.17 KB, 568x726, 284:363, Protestant_interpetation.PNG)

File: b13fa6d1e3cac72⋯.png (33.21 KB, 611x610, 611:610, visibleChurch.PNG)

>>665470

Sola Scriputra relies on interpretations of the Bible, and reformed looked at history. Can't neccesarly hold both.

Was wondering why we had fellowship with Baby-Baptizing Presbyterians and my Pastor said it was open up to interpretation which is more correct.

Made me really think about what doctrines are fundamental

>There is no set list of ex cathedra teachings, but that’s because there are only two, and both are about Mary: her Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854 and grandfathered in after the First Vatican Council’s declaration of papal infallibility in 1870) and her bodily Assumption into heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950).

Catechism holds the churches teachings. Or read Vatican I and II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council

I'm a babe in Roman Catholicsm; hopefully other posters can help more with this.


447e17 No.665491

Have you ever talked to someone whose knowledge of Chriatian theology is completely based on disinterested speculation and memes? Such a person might say something like "Dude if God knows what we do before we do it then we don't really have free will lmao!" Calvinism is a form of Christianity wholly committed to this patently unreasonable heresy that backs it up with tenuous examples from Scripture.


5b64dc No.665495

>>665411

All of TULIP is wrong and you have shoddy legalism and that whole predestination no free-will nonsense, also it's a form of protestantism so that's a problem and Calvin wanting to kill a guy for trolling him.


97aaa3 No.665513

File: 1f6e7e7c4e25661⋯.jpg (107.55 KB, 537x1076, 537:1076, smug magic gals.jpg)

>>665453

>I don't understand how both God and man make decisions.

>I don't understand sovereignty and limits.

>>665491

>based on disinterested speculation and memes?

>acks it up with tenuous examples from Scripture.

Which one is it? Is Calvinism just mere speculation or we're all just meme-ing each other?

>>665495

None of you have any idea what you all are talking about, except this based Orthobro >>665424 , who at least uses sources that try to exegete Scripture.


209fe4 No.665514

>>665421

That's one of the most awful interpretation of genesis I have ever seen.


aa270f No.665517

>>665513

It's a pretty big problem. I'm a big fan of Kabane and am pretty solid in my own Orthodoxy, but the only time I was really thrown into questioning was when one of my closest friends temporarily left the Church for reformed churches and when tollhousers were going a little crazy on here and elsewhere. People don't seem to understand the damage they are doing when they strawman reformed theology and copy and paste Catholic Answers level apologetics with no thought of their own. They also don't get that our beliefs need to be Biblical supported by the sound exegesis of the Fathers of the Church, who loved the Holy Scriptures enough that they would be called Protodox Larpers if they posted on here


139463 No.665528

>>665435

I have never read anything that is less true.

Calvinism is literally all about God's will being sovereign above man's will. It is very explicit about no rules ever being able to save you, but that you need a personal relationship with Christ.

What you wrote applies to every other Christian denomination more than it does to Calvinism. Arminians/ Catholics/ Orthodox/ etc. believe you only have to follow a specific set of rules and God has to save you, but if you decide not to obey, well there is nothing God can do about that. They set man's will to obey God over God's will to save a man, and they set sacramentalism over seeking Christ.

>>665463

That's just a silly statement to make. You know that Catholics themselves are divided on doctrines as much as Protestant are. You have high ranking church officials in Europe advocate for the female priesthood, communion for Protestants, re-marriage, etc. Oh, and you have a pope that may or may not believe that hell exists.

To claim that the Catholic church somehow provides a united set of believes that everybody can hold to is just not true.

>>665480

>2

First of all, you could just as well find very well-known Christians that held non-Catholic believes at that time. Don't forget that the last Marian dogma was defined in the 1950s.

Secondly, there were people defending a fairly reformed view of scripture much longer than Augustine, see for example a man named Gottschalk in the 9th century who defended double predestination & God's sovereignty, and of course latter the Waldensians, John Wycliffe, Jan Hus, etc. were all opposed to Rome.

Thirdly, it's kind of difficult to defend your viewpoint if you know from previous examples that you most likely will go to jail, be tortured and die. The only way we even know anything the Waldensians believed comes from the records of the inquisition.

Lastly, one could just as well ask how you can believe that God would let his church full in such disrepair as the medieval Catholic church. Look at John XII, Benedict IX or Alexander VI. Do you really believe God would allow the "successor of Peter" to commit murder or have sex with a married woman? What about church offices being sold to the highest bidder, people that don't read Latin holding the mass, selling indulgences, etc.?Have at that point the gate's of hell not prevailed against it?

>4

Yes, I trust a man with the Holy Spirit reading the scriptures to discern the truth over the pope determining it with almost no recourse. Sola Scriptura > Sola Ecclesia

If the church can infallibly interpret scripture and infallibly say what is & is not tradition and what those traditions say, really the only thing determining any doctrine is the Catholic church.

So now you get to decide, do you trust an earthly authority that has held different believes in the past from what it does now, or do you believe the inerrant word of God? Keep in mind that Christ all throughout the gospel held people accountable for what was written in scripture and admonished them for adding the traditions of men to it.

Next, it is important to understand that no Protestant (except for Hyper-Calvinists which basically don't exist) believes that correct doctrine will save you. What saves you is God, not knowing the right creeds & confessions. On top of that, most prefer a local church government over a centralized authority hundreds of miles away. If the church I attend now were to allow female priests I could leave and go to a different church, if the Catholic church starts to allow female priests or changes other doctrines important to you, you either go sedevacantist or change your believes.

>5

Seems weird to hear a Catholic say that God's grace is sufficient. So, I don't need all the sacraments? This thing about "how you come about grace" makes little sense, because if you have to do something to receive grace, it is no longer grace.

To equate ἐκκλησία with your modern notion of what the English word "church" describes, seems like a pretty silly thing to do.

The last paragraph once again goes into the same nonsense about tradition (selected by the church, defined by the church) but I always laugh when Catholics try to lever apostolic succession. Apparently that successor to the apostles can be an unrepentant criminal (and therefore somebody not in a state of grace), can be anathematized by later Councils (see Honorius) and at one point there can be as many as 3 different successors to Peter one of which gets retroactively called the true Pope & the other Anti-pope were of course never popes to begin with (kind of like the Chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven).


97aaa3 No.665531

>>665513

Meant to say, Is Calvinism just mere speculation or is it backed-up, even if tenuously, by Scripture?

>>665517

I really do appreciate that you take the time to research and study the Bible, even if I think the conclusion are just a smidge erroneous. The more examples we have on this board like you, the more mature the younger anons here will become. Maybe we'll be the first board in the history of chan forums, besides 8/pol/, to actually improve.

>>665528

Nice!


e27090 No.665534

>>665411

What's right with it?


68668e No.665535

>>665420

Underrated post.


abf372 No.665541

>>665411

Its theology was predestined to be shit.


5b64dc No.665542

>>665495

This^

>>665541

kek^

>>665424

/thread

should've ended here.


3e5e99 No.665550

>>665495

>Created shitty theology

>Thinks that God is predestining people to hell and that humans have no free will

>Created a theocratic government bent on purging all who disagreed with calvinism

>Wasn't actual theologian or related, just a statesman

>Literally tried to kill a guy for trolling him

Muhammad v2.0 Electric Boogaloo


a4392d No.665551

File: f217c5f9a70e0f4⋯.jpg (35.66 KB, 490x466, 245:233, 31165907_1722349711179671_….jpg)


82ba8d No.665589

>>665453

>begome what you always were

What's so hard to understand?


ad2ad8 No.665607

File: fb37faff9d2244c⋯.jpg (507.63 KB, 862x2428, 431:1214, Election.jpg)

>>665551

I kekl'd a little.


60d407 No.665653

>>665589

To become something you have to not be it in the first place.


398c3b No.665694

>>665607

What's the sixth point in Six-Point Calvinism?


842b2c No.665852

>>665411

Absolutely nothing

>>665420

There is God's desire, and God's sovereign will. This verse shows his desire. And even then, you are assuming that 'all men' speaks literally of this, and not of 'all of the church'.

>>665421

wtf?

>>665428

xDDD good one.

>>665435

You aren't even arguing against calvinism, just the idea of it.

>>665495

Wow, you supported your argument very well, lots of biblical quotes.

>>665531

If you really want to study it, read a systematic theology, like Charles Berkhof's Reformed Dogmatics. And to answer your question, it is most assuredly backed up. The main chapters used to support it are Isaiah 53, John 6, Romans 9 and Ephesians 1-2, and this is only part of the evidence.


68668e No.665876

>>665852

>There is God's desire, and God's sovereign will. This verse shows his desire.

Citation needed on this.

>And even then, you are assuming that 'all men' speaks literally of this, and not of 'all of the church'.

All means all.


398c3b No.666152

>>665852

>read a systematic theology, like Charles Berkhof's Reformed Dogmatics.

Do you mean Louis Berkhof?


398c3b No.666743

bump


f87dc6 No.666749

It's dumb and not biblical


7b1b39 No.666753

>>665852

>And even then, you are assuming that 'all men' speaks literally of this, and not of 'all of the church'.

Literally talmudic-tier exegesis


cf0320 No.666758

>>665852

I appreciate the tip, but you're responding to your own side. I was correcting myself here >>665513 responding to >>665491 who made two contradictory statements about Calvinism. Glad we both agree it's backed-up well with Scripture.


720a58 No.666772

>>665411

Fake and gay


c5ad44 No.666835

It's a 500 year old joke. An impotent and empty innovation.


429bab No.666843

>>665852

> God is sovereign but can't will what he desires

give it up


8a9dd4 No.666973

>>665528

>What you wrote applies to every other Christian denomination more than it does to Calvinism. Arminians/ Catholics/ Orthodox/ etc. believe you only have to follow a specific set of rules and God has to save you, but if you decide not to obey, well there is nothing God can do about that. They set man's will to obey God over God's will to save a man, and they set sacramentalism over seeking Christ.

This.


bf2f64 No.666975

limited atonement is a ridiculous doctrine. at least you can be a diatrophes like steven anderson who believes in it instead of being an embarassment.


398c3b No.667069

Is it really the logical extension of Augustine's ideas?


31e8b2 No.667077

>>666973

Neither of you mentioned a single thing from Scripture.

John 5:40

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

There, that wasn't hard.


4c91cd No.667205

>>665852

>>665420

>>665876

>>666843

>I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Notice he clarifies in the second verse to include "kings and all those in authority", Paul is speaking in "types" of people as reformed apologetics would say. I would also point out that this is quite revolutionary to a hebrew mind of the time, to pray that gentile rulers be converted. To further that point, Paul mentions his appointment to be the apostle to the gentiles in verse 7. Remember also that Paul wrote Romans 9 where he speaks of God's choice in saving some, but not others. Should we say that Paul is contradicting himself? I think he was consistent with Jesus who said in John 6:

<No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

I think that verse is self-evident in that God is not drawing everyone, because not everyone gets raised up.


398c3b No.667368

>>667205

Which Reformed oriented Church do you attend?


31e8b2 No.667372

>>667205

>Paul is speaking in "types" of people as reformed apologetics would say.

All means all actually.

>I think that verse is self-evident in that God is not drawing everyone,

John 12:32

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


3d1ac8 No.667507

>>667372

The passage blows out this interpretation, as the prayers and intercessions are part of the conversion. That is, it isn't God who Christ died to change, but sinful man.


82ba8d No.667663

>>665653

What are you, a caveman. Go learn quantum physics.


4c91cd No.667872

>>667368

I sadly don't have one, there aren't any I've found. I just agree with the theology through study, that's all.

>>667372

>And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

<And I will raise him up on the last day.

Check out this one weird step to becoming a universalist. I'm just kidding, but that's what you'd have to logically follow if you argue this. Ignoring the rest of the John 6 verse doesn't really work here then.

>All means all actually.

I did explain it in a very brief fashion, but it's your choice after all, to either listen and argue against it properly, or ignore it.


398c3b No.667925

File: 3af075d5f8d8cd4⋯.jpg (109.66 KB, 620x388, 155:97, Bunyan_2381396b.jpg)

>>667872

Apart from the Institutes what other books do you recommend to get a clear picture of what Reformed theology entails?


0090c0 No.667976

>>667872

>Check out this one weird step to becoming a universalist.

No, you just clearly are confused about what John 6 says there. It's saying those that come to him will be raised up on the last day, but for that to happen they must first be drawn. It's not saying all drawn will come to him.

You are just confused about what John 6:44 actually says. According to your confused idea, John 12:32 implies universalism, so I guess you just have to ignore it or treat it as not scripture.

>but it's your choice after all, to either listen and argue against it properly, or ignore it.

All means all, and throwing around the term "reformed apologetics" as if it were authoritative doesn't change that simple fact. Neither does verse 2 or verse 7 change that.

And I've already shown how it is consistent to both John 6:44 and John 12:32. Being drawn is a prerequisite to coming to him, yet at the same time, not all who are being drawn do that. It's just that simple.


45c395 No.667979

File: 30bca5dd8b3c76a⋯.jpg (37.9 KB, 342x457, 342:457, heretic-john-calvin-murder….jpg)


267e28 No.667983

>>667979

Servetus was a greater heretic than Calvin.


398c3b No.668012

>>667979

Would that be the same Servetus that denied the Trinity and who would have been executed or in the very least persecuted anywhere else for holding such a view?


429bab No.668058

>>667976

First response is perfect. I don't see how anyone can remain a Calvinist if they read and reflect on this thread. It's heresy.


71e275 No.668244

>>667979

Servetus denied the trinity. I am not pleading for what happened to Servetus, but Calvin was far closer to a Christian than ol' Mike Ve.


4c91cd No.668822

>>667925

There is Jonathan Edwards' collected works, with most the sermons he preached and books he wrote, I would say that's good.

>>667976

>It's saying those that come to him will be raised up on the last day, but for that to happen they must first be drawn. It's not saying all drawn will come to him.

That's exactly what it is saying though. The "And I will raise him up on the last day." follows the preceding sentence and refers to it. There is no sense of chance or possibility of either doing or not doing in either sentence. The one drawn will come to God, and will be raised up on the last day.

>You are just confused about what John 6:44 actually says. According to your confused idea

No, I was simply showing the inevitable result of what should happen if one went with what you were saying. One can not clip off the rest of the verse in 6:44 in regards to the drawing, because it is an inherent conclusion to the drawing.

> yet at the same time, not all who are being drawn do that. It's just that simple.

The scriptures state that God predestines some to salvation. It is not me who says so, but the scriptures. The drawing is effective.

>All means all, and throwing around the term "reformed apologetics" as if it were authoritative doesn't change that simple fact.

It's not that "reformed apologetics" as a term holds weight, it is what it's based on that holds the weight, the scriptures.The Scriptures state the desire of God to save all, yet we also see that he has predestined some, but not others to salvation.

>>667979

>>667983

>>668012

>>668244

I never see the point in this tired Calvin vs. Servetus debacle. What Calvin repeated was merely the age old truth of the Bible, that men are wholly, utterly reliant on a sovereign God for mercy and salvation and can not come to Him unless God lifts them up. Is it just that people wish to ignore the words of Paul and Christ when they see them in the Bible, and attribute it all to Calvin who once acted in the spirit of all state religions?

>For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

>In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice that God saves for His glory, and He will not pass it off, He will not fail to save.


398c3b No.668829

>>668822

>There is Jonathan Edwards' collected works, with most the sermons he preached and books he wrote, I would say that's good.

Thanks!


f57d35 No.668874

>>665411

The only thing really wrong with Calvinism is its understanding of the nature of effectual calling on these points:

>Grace is resistible

Hebrews 3:7-8

"Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts…"

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

>Grace is universally offered

Titus 2:11

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Acts 17:26-27

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

Acts 17:30

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

>Grace is effectual in the elect because of God's intimate knowledge of them

Romans 8:29-30

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

1 Peter 1:2

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."


f57d35 No.668879

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>667979

Take some time to get educated on the topic.


83013b No.668897

>>667979

ad hominem


ce08ad No.668901

>>668822

>One can not clip off the rest of the verse in 6:44 in regards to the drawing, because it is an inherent conclusion to the drawing.

It's saying they must first be drawn or else it can't happen.

>The scriptures state that God predestines some to salvation.

Being predestinated is not the same thing as being drawn. We know this because John 12:32 says that all men are currently drawn unto him.

>The Scriptures state the desire of God to save all, yet we also see that he has predestined some, but not others to salvation.

True. But that doesn't mean they haven't resisted his grace. They have, and they are accountable for it.

John 5:40

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


398c3b No.669293

>>668874

Sounds like Arminianism to me.


434cd8 No.669347

>>668879

This professor has some good lectures on his you tube channel




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