dcca58 No.661688
>Our findings indicate that the Reformation played an important causal role in the secularization of the West.
<mfw E. Michael Jones was right all along
https://academic.oup.com/qje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/qje/qjy011/5033707
2dab18 No.661694
>>661688
In the Middle Age we had, in the west, a completely Catholic order.
Different Kingdoms, republics and minor principalities recognized two authorities above them: the Pope and the Emperor.
So, despite political divisions, Western Europe had supra-national authorities and acted as a united civilization (Christendom or Respublica Christiana).
This order was weakened by the fighting between the Pope and the Emperor, each one trying to prevail against the other. This led to a period of division with two or three popes/antipopes and to the fragmentation of the Empire.
Many major Kingdoms, such as Castille, France and England, declared themselves to be completely indipendent from the authority of the Empire.
The nail in the coffin of this order was indeed the protestant reformation: it prevented every possible unity in the HRE due to religious divisions, was used by England and others to break free also from the Pope and caused terrible wars of religion.
Since the wars of religions exhausted both parts it was agreed to accept freedom of religion for each prince and to make religious differences an invalid cause for war. Thus leading to nation power politics and expelling religion from state.
475af2 No.661696
>>661694
Did (((they))) start protestantism?
364387 No.661714
>>661688
>conflating "secular" with "godless"
Are there ANY academics who have a clue left in the world?
b3860c No.661720
>>661714
Any institution or government that is not theocratic or monarchy is Godless tbh
e41928 No.661743
>>661688
>a reallocation of resources from religious to secular purposes
Not a bad thing in an absolute sense, especially when the religious hierarchy becomes corrupt and deviant from its original purpose.
There is a highly religious, reformed Afrikaner enclave called "Orania" which seems to me, to be the most ideal society I've ever heard of.
https://www.biznews.com/undictated/2015/10/30/heres-andrew-kennys-orania-column-the-citizen-doesnt-want-you-to-read/
e41928 No.661745
>>661688
>Our findings indicate that the Reformation played an important causal role in the secularization of the West.
This is truncation of context to prove a bias. Go one step further and investigate the causes of the Reformation.
2d8226 No.661750
>>661714
>God wants theocratic governments
>Government is secular contrary to him
>This doesn't make it godless
f2dce1 No.661754
>>661696
M*rtin L*ther cut up the Bible because the kikes told him to.
>well goy, we don't have these so you shouldn't have then either. We're God's chosen remember?
Not only he turned to the synagogue of satan to violate the Bible but also got duped by them afterwards.
That's when he wrote "on the jews and their lies", when the lie was already told.
33e81b No.661756
>>661688
It is considered that the peak of the Christian age (as a defined sociocultural order) was reached in the 1500's. We have been in decadence since then. But, curiously what we understand today as a Renaissance was already working around 1450 or earlier.
In my opinion what we have here is the death of the european christian model of society. It was unable to give answers to many people sicken with the ecclesiastical dominion. They felt for the freedum meme, build your own church, reformation, etc. And so we are after another 500 years with the same problems but worse. Because now secularism is rampant and people are lost. All we have is money (Mammon) and science. But I will not deny that rationalism, (and personal freedom) has been fruitful. This is one of the reasons of the success of the Anglosphere.
d33ead No.661772
>>661688
You waste your time arguing for the devil's petty quarrels, and you waste my time. Jesus is lord, that's all that matters, take your guns off protestants and focus them on atheists, commies and the rest of the devils' handyman. The whole world is burning and you decide to poke fellow Christians in the Eye? You complain about the quarrels Christians had back then and yet you perpetuate them! Therefor become that which you hate in an age of secularism. I can't imagine any worse timing.
Some fanatical Catholics focus on the wrong enemy, I cannot imagine any worse timing then what they do today. How about this proposition: after most of the west acknowledges that Jesus is Lord, focus on petty divisions THEN, Not NOW. I'd much rather have a Catholic neighbor than an atheist one, but sometimes I think Catholics would not see much difference between me and the atheist. You guys spend far too much time deriding those whom admit Jesus is lord. You focus on a age-old scab when the medical patient is missing a leg whose wounds have turned gangrenous, oh but it's the scab that you address and not the gaping wounds.
Get rid of your commie pope and as a result you might actually make Catholicism appealing for us, focus on the progressives amidst your ranks and you might just win me over, what's not going to win me over is blaming me for all the ills facing modern society. You only reaffirm to me that you have no leadership or that your leadership has been compromised (which considering this Pope is quite likely).
>Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matthew 7:5
f9d892 No.661776
>>661754
Well, it's true.
After going to Jewish Scholars to throw out the "Apocrypha", Luther turned on them a few years later….without bringing back the apocrypha. Apparently, Jews are only liars when they don't do what you want.
f9d892 No.661777
>>661772
>take your guns off protestants and focus them on atheists
Protestants have been the major force for secularization for centuries, when you leave the Church, you go to the State to enforce your moral-law.
>The whole world is burning and you decide to poke fellow Christians in the Eye? You complain about the quarrels Christians had back then and yet you perpetuate them!
Completely outrageous and anti-Catholic simplification of history. Yes, we're just mean old bad people, and the Reformation wasn't the beginning of the great falling away.
>Get rid of your commie pope and as a result you might actually make Catholicism appealing for us
We will never appeal to Satan.
e41928 No.661782
>>661777
Please clean up that formatting, anon. You'll blend in better. Welcome to 8chan, btw.
As far as the content of your post, you're ignoring all the legitimate reasons for the Reformation. The best Catholics today such as EMJ are in an undeclared, ideological schism with the hierarchy, but simply refuse to renounce their membership. The body of Christ is not limited to the original schismatic Catholics who abandoned Jerusalem and Antioch.
a5a9c7 No.661826
>>661782
Actually (yes, I know … akchually blah blah blah), anyone who is accustom to writing up research papers or book reports or anything of the like will hit enter twice because of the general requirement to double space between paragraphs. It's not necessarily the sign of someone who frequents Reddit.
It could be the sign of someone who has been to, or is currently in, University.
e41928 No.661858
>>661826
Not a reasonable assumption. Reddit and imageboards both use BBCode-based webforms, which is significantly different from a word processor. If someone falls off of a bike, we presume they didn't think they were driving a car.
7a2190 No.661863
>>661858
>BBCode
neither reddit nor imageboards are based on BBCode at all.
Reddit uses markdown, and 8ch uses markdown for people with autism.
BBCode is much more like HTML and is normally found on oldfag forums that are based on PHPBB, simplemachines forums, and similar platforms.
944f59 No.661869
>>661688
>Our findings indicate that the Reformation played an important causal role in the secularization of the West.
Wait, and this is news how?
Was this even controversial knowledge?
I thought this was a well known fact.
>>661745
>Go one step further and investigate the causes of the Reformation.
We all know that these heresies got more rampant because once someone gains some traction with justifiable complaints (abuse of indulgences by selling them, simony, badly educated clergy in general etc.) they tend to get too arrogant and go full heresiarch.
As for how the Reformation grew so fast, well it's a pretty nice deal; you instantly get into heaven AND you can confiscate all church lands?
The prince of Saxony couldn't resist.
a5a9c7 No.661870
>>661858
Ah, see, I wouldn't know that because I don't use Reddit. How, exactly, are you such an expert, hmmmmm?
e41928 No.661876
>>661863
>BBCode vs Markdown
Same crap, different syntax. Oldfags like yours truly sloppily refer to all messageboard-oriented markup languages as "bbcode". The delineation from word processor formatting is clear.
>>661870
I used to frequent reddit many, many years ago before it became literal sodom. Just as most of you did (and some still do, to your deserved shame).
>>661869
The so-called "Catholic" church split from the original churches over far less than the complaints leveled by the Reformers. Also, you have to admit, protestantism keeps the Catholics accountable to the bible. I'd say they had a net benefit on the church, keeping it grounded. Without the Reformation, I doubt Catholics would read the bible at all.
7a2190 No.661879
>>661870
>How, exactly, are you such an expert, hmmmmm?
most of this board and the associated discord community uses reddit, has incestuous relations with redditors through discord, and is closely related to /r/truechristian, /r/catholicism and /r/orthodoxchristianity, both in the subs directly and in the subs' discord community.
If anything, a lot of people here also use reddit to bitch at liberals on /r/christianity and in abominations like /r/openchristian.
Not only is there reddit spacing, but you can see pretty often people doing *this* instead of this here too. The christian online community pretty well centers around reddit, this board, and a bunch of oldfag style boards like catholic answers and such, so of course there's a lot of redditors on this board.
>>661876
>Same crap, different syntax.
Having written an imageboard, I can agree with that. Implementing an inline syntax system like that would be about the same in the actual server side code.
They are different formats for the user, though. Just sayin'
10e7a6 No.661880
prots believe in God more than cathlodox
f78da2 No.661884
>be Luther
>start new religion
>take advice from (((jews)))
>butcher Bible
>large portion of west adopts the religion
>west goes to shit mostly in those regions
Why are (((they))) behind everything but the Classical Catholic church?
>inb4 Jesus da joo meme
e41928 No.661885
>>661884
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
I hate to say this, but I encounter more fallacies on /christian/ than any place I've ever been on the internet. Y'all need Logic 101.
c36ad4 No.661887
>>661884
>west goes to shit mostly in those regions
The entire West is going to shit, like it or not.
85b055 No.661900
>>661772
>Dude, why are you focusing on the Arians, Nestorians, Gnostics, Monophysites, Monothelites, Cathars, and others?
>They believe in Jesus! They call Him Lord! That's all that matters, man!
>Why don't you go focus on other people, huh?
>>661880
What was the sample size for each denomination?
Where did they live?
How often did they pray, read the scriptures, and go to church?
Oh wait, that doesn't matter, because reasons
aa50f1 No.661920
>>661714
There's no practical difference between secularism and godlessness. Secularism is publicly practiced godlessness, which leads to total godlessness. It's pernicious because it doesn't have to outright deny and disprove God's existence in order to create atheism, but instead simply insists that you act like He doesn't except in your own private space and time. Lex orandi lex credendi—over time (sometimes generations), as people act like God doesn't exist for all but an hour on Sunday, they eventually drop the vestigial practice of going to church and believing in God altogether. Really just look at the progressive decline in church attendance and professing Christians in any secular country.
c9257d No.661941
>>661900
>What was the sample size for each denomination?
Catholic - 7002
Orthodox - 186
Mainlain prot- 6083
Evangelical - 8593
>Where did they live?
Just looking at the website it says all 50 states If you click on the specific denomination on this link it will tell you the number by specific states
http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/
>How often did they pray, read the scriptures, and go to church?
See Pic related
Overall the biggest issue is just the tiny Orthodox sample size.
f9d892 No.662010
f9d892 No.662014
"While the Reformation was a religious movement, we find that its unintended consequence was to promote economic secularization: a significant shift in the balance of power toward secular authorities, and a sharp and immediate reallocation of resources toward secular purposes."
" As indicators of the shifting bargain between secular and religious authorities, we ex-amine the expropriation of monasteries and wealth transfers from the Catholic Church to secular lords"
To quote E. Michael Jones and William Cobbett: "The Protestant Reformation was a looting operation."
>>661782
>The best Catholics today such as EMJ are in an undeclared, ideological schism with the hierarchy, but simply refuse to renounce their membership.
Why lie? Ask EMJ if he's in schism, coward.
18ba23 No.662018
>>661858
The traditional forums didn't (and don't) do formatting anything like Reddit. This includes how linebreaks are handled. Meanwhile imageboards use similar markup for italics and such as Reddit.
People used (and use) double spacing between paragraphs because it makes posts readable. Walls of text are hard to read. This is not to be confused with other uneducated or poorly educated people making every sentence its own paragraph. "Reddit spacing" is a D&C meme.
t. someone who has been posting on the Internet before imageboards were a thing
f9d892 No.662020
>One alternative to our proposed political economy mechanism is that what appears to be secularization is a mere relabeling of activities that were simply transferred from Catholic Church jurisdiction to Protestant secular lords. For example, historical construction supporting social service provision difficult to assign definitively to the religious or secular sectors. However, when we disaggregate secular construction into finer categories, we do not observe a shift in construction for potentially ambiguous social service provision during the Reformation; we see a shift in unambiguously secular construction (lords’ palaces and administrative buildings, as suggested by Figure I, panel B).
>Another alternative is that the apparent secularization reflects the transfer of spending commitments to religious warfare conducted by secular authorities. However, in our analysis of finer categories of secular construction, we observe no shift in military construction through 1600.
Wow. So not only:
1. The Protestant Reformation eliminated all the social services Catholic Churches provided; with no attempt -whatsoever- at replacing these vital services, they just made Palaces and court-houses!
2. The military complex of the time was not dismantled; but preserved for the use of secular lords
Even more damning:
>In data on human capital and fixed investments, we do not observe any trends towards secularization prior to the Reformation. In occupational choice we do observe overall trends away from church employment, though we do not observe any differential pretrends towards secularization in regions that would adopt Protestantism. This suggests that the post-Reformation resource reallocation we observe was not previously in motion, and was not inevitable
Is the Reformation responsible for the decline of the West? Very possible.
f9d892 No.662027
Well, at least the early Prots tried:
>The allocation of formerly Catholic resources would be determined by the bargain between secular and church elites. The "price” Protestant theologians initially offered to secular rulers was high: formerly Catholic resources were to be devoted to religious uses. Ocker (2010, pp. 54–55) writes that Protestant clergy proposed using confiscated monastic wealth to support Protestant pastors and to establish a “common chest” for social welfare; he continues, “theologians only granted rulers a free hand in church property when property remained after the needs of schools, poor relief, and public welfare had been met.” Historical evidence suggests that some formerly Catholic resources were, indeed, used for church and social welfare purposes. In the Electorate of Saxony (Luther’s home), monastic resources were transferred to a common chest that provided support for orphans and the poor. Incomes were also used to support former monks.
but, they still became the State's dogs:
>Over time, however, the price fell, and Protestant theologians conceded a greater share of resources to lords. While the theologians advising the Schmalkaldic League drafted an agreement assigning confiscated lands to Protestant church uses, this agreement was rejected by the rulers of Pomerania and Wurttemberg and never adopted by the League. Historical evidence indicates that large-scale transfers of wealth to secular rulers became the norm; Wolgast (2014) provides numerous descriptions of secular lords seizing church property and enriching themselves, of which we highlight several here.
This is what happens when you abandon the Church and serve the State, there is no protection with a secular Lord/State, he will not abide your Christian charity.
f9d892 No.662031
>Many of the resources acquired from the Catholic Church were
not reallocated toward Protestant church purposes, but were retained by secular lords
>Prior to the Reformation, around 10% of degrees were awarded in theology, and, if anything, universities that would become Protestant granted a slightly higher share of theology degrees than universities that would remain Catholic. After the Reformation, the share of theology degrees granted fell below 2% in Protestant universities; in Catholic universities, the share of theology degrees granted fell in the middle of the 16th century, but by 1600 the share had returned to the level observed prior to the Reformation.
Ah, so this is why Catholic Theology is so great :0
c9257d No.662033
>>662027
To what extent were the Catholic resources previously spent on things such as welfare/social provision?
f9d892 No.662038
>>662033
Dunno, read the research.
>Evidence presented thus far supports a causal interpretation: territories and universities that would become Protestant exhibit no significant differences in human and physical capital investment trends prior to the Reformation. We observe no indication that these territories would have diverged had the Reformation not occurred.
Oof!
Page 37-28 has a lot of historical episodes of Protestants taking direct control of the kingdom from Catholics; with disastrous results. Resources spent glorifying God were instead spent for mere man.
c295ac No.662046
>>662038
>Resources spent glorifying God were instead spent for mere man.
We can also see this degeneration in art. God > Man > Nature > Nothing; or as Chesterton would say “Art in the middle ages was ‘art for God’s sake’; art in the Renaissance was ‘art for man’s sake’; art in the 19th century was ‘art for art’s sake’; now art in the 20th century is ‘no art, for God’s sake.”
c9257d No.662069
>>662038
>Dunno, read the research.
Have you come across any sections in it pertaining to that?
>>Evidence presented thus far…
Was this and that other post meant for someone else?
f9d892 No.662077
>>662069
I was just scanning through it posting interesting bits. As to the extent of Catholic social charity work, I have no clue; it is a claim the researchers made, and I assume they have evidence supporting the assertion, just look through it.
0b6af3 No.662093
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>661688
>>661772
>>661777
>>661884
>>662027
Meanwhile _/esuits are completely free of blame, of course, yet they're responsible for lead astray God's people from their foundations of the faith. Wew, people, wew.
944f59 No.662096
>>661876
>Without the Reformation, I doubt Catholics would read the bible at all.
<What is the Douay-Rheims version
>>661880
The Pharisees also believed in God, doesn't mean much in the end if you don't act accordingly.
0269d8 No.662102
>>662096
<What is the Douay-Rheims version
Written after the English Reformation
5e8e80 No.662152
>>662096
>>662102
And they still won't read it. Had to even invent a new canon too.
>>661688
Wow, so the downfall of western civilization can be traced all the way back to unchristian abuses of the faith by priests and the pope? Unbelievable.
>This thing is to blame!
>not the unacceptable conditions that predicated it, or the unwillingness to correct the error simply because money was being made
>you can only serve one master, the RCC chose theirs
>somehow it was bad for people to reject money and choose God
WEW, time for a big think.
>anyone with half a brain knows better
>next you'll try and tell me Christians destroyed the Roman Empire, when reality shows it was Roman incompetence, apathy, and being bled dry by Germanics
03891d No.662192
>>662096
>What is the Douay-Rheims version
You know that was created as part of the Counter-Reformation, right? You just proved my point.
128780 No.662197
>>662192
There were plenty of translations in languages other than latin before the reformation. Seriously, this is such a bad argument, it's like you don't even have the internet or ever opened a history book in your entire life
03891d No.662202
>>662197
It was the first complete Roman Catholic bible translated into English. On behalf of Reformed Christians the world over, you are welcome.
f9d892 No.662223
>>662152
Did you even read the research? Let me quote it again for you.
"Evidence presented thus far supports a causal interpretation: territories and universities that would become Protestant exhibit no significant differences in human and physical capital investment trends prior to the Reformation. We observe no indication that these territories would have diverged had the Reformation not occurred."
They have legitimate research indicating the Reformation, not the Church, is to blame for the decline of the West. Get over it, it's done. We know who's responsible now.
>>662093
>b-b-but Jesuits!!!!
What does this have to do with anything? Read the article.
>>662192
>>662202
English was not the lingua franca at the time, the need for an English Bible is not the same as it would be now.
Additionally, the printing press kicked in at the same time as the Reformation, almost a literal year-by-year launch at the same time. In fact, you cannot say whether or not the Church WOULDN'T "translate it for the common man", because there was no printing press prior to the reformation.
On behalf of 2,000 years of Catholics the world over, you are welcome.
944f59 No.662243
>>662152
>And they still won't read it
Baseless assumption.
>Had to even invent a new canon too.
Historical fanfiction to justify the removal of the deuterocanonical books.
>somehow it was bad for people to reject money and choose God
The reason why protestantism was adopted was literally the opposite of this.
Holy Roman princes choosing money over God because in protestantism you don't need monks or any external clergy to begin with so they just confiscated all the church lands.
>>662192
>>662202
The catholic Church wrote the first bible in the vernacular and further translations were prohibited because of heresies.
>>662223
>In fact, you cannot say whether or not the Church WOULDN'T "translate it for the common man", because there was no printing press prior to the reformation.
You forgot to mention how >95% of the population until the 19th century could literally nor read and that there were a lot more languages commonly used as today.
There was just no demand for a bible in vernacular, and those who could read could most of the time also read Latin since it was the lingua franca uniting all the intellectuals in a time when the Mediterrenean region had 40-50 languages.
0269d8 No.662247
>>662223
People like Wycliffe and Tyndale translated the Bible and the Church got upset at them for doing so. The only reason the Douay Rheims version was commissioned because the Reformation had happened and the Church wanted to convert the English back to Catholicism and had to do so in English. There's no reason to believe that the Church had any desire to have the Bible to be translated into the vernacular even if the advent of the printing press had happened sooner.
f9d892 No.662250
>>662247
Wycliff and Tyndale translated the Bible and corrupted Scripture to support their false doctrine, a sin worthy of hell according to Scripture itself.
But in any case, why not take this to another thread?
Protestantism is the great falling away, who can dispute it?
0269d8 No.662252
>>662250
>Tyndale translated the Bible and corrupted Scripture to support their false doctrine
I guess that's why the Douay-Rheims version relies heavily Tyndale for its English text.
0269d8 No.662253
f9d892 No.662257
>>662253
who cares? quit trying to change the topic.
03891d No.662260
>>662223
>the printing press operated to the benefit of catholic hegemony
This is some next level revisionism.
f9d892 No.662261
>>662260
And where did I say that?
Protestants are ridiculous, read the research and look at the damage the falling away caused. We must be in the end-times.
944f59 No.662308
>>662260
>When historical revisionists strawman your argument by calling you revisionist and give no arguments whatsoever
5aecfb No.662318
>>661887
Poland, Hungary, Austria and Italy?
e41928 No.662339
>>662261
>And where did I say that?
You implied that it would have been used by the Catholic Church to undermine its own authority, which is pretty hilarious.