/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>As I understand they changed their views on contraception and divorce (correct me if I'm wrong).

Those predate the Schism.

Source:

https://east2west.org/

Check the faq for these eastern caths.

I don't think there was a moment when they changed their stance on divorce supposedly it goes back before the schism kind of like the filioque and unleavened bread but wether or not its right is another question.

>>660363

Kinda, as an excuse to not accept the councils of Lyon and Florence that reunited them with Rome they winnie the poohed up their doctrine about Councils.

For this reason they will never be able to have an ecumencial council again, not even to condemn latin doctrines.

>>660363

The pre-schism Church made Mary ever-virgin which wasn't related to any heresies at the 2nd Ecumenical Council of Constantinople so they have some 'revisions'.

>>660363

If Orthodoxy had gone unchanged, it would be Roman Catholicism. Now, that aside…

>As I understand they changed their views on contraception and divorce (correct me if I'm wrong).

Views on contraception didn't really "change", they were just extremely basic. "Contraception is murder (more gravely) and prevents reproduction (less gravely)". Once we knew that not all contraception is the same or kills a person, abortifacient contraceptives were still put in the murder category while non-abortifacient can be allowed by economy (as in, if the priest determines it's the only alternative to committing a more serious sin, and if the bishop allows it).

Catholics have a more elaborate theology of natural law, so they've kept the patristic view that all contraception is mortal sin.

But honestly, unless you're married, you really shouldn't be concerned with this.

As for divorce and remarriage, nearly everything about the subject is taken from St Basil's epistles. Rome wasn't always unaware of the practice either - when the emperor wanted to contract a fourth marriage, and the Ecumenical Patriarch forbade him to, and there was a dispute, the EP appealed to the Pope, who confirmed that the emperor could remarry again.

>>660367

Lyons II only united the emperor and his legates to Rome. The idea was that the rest of the populace would follow, but that didn't happen.

Florence required synods to be held back home to confirm the council's proceedings, otherwise it has no power, you know. Only Constantinople ended up confirming Florence, and this lasted for 4 months I think - then the city fell and Constantinople would never have a liturgy while in communion with Rome again, especially as the idea quickly became that the city's fall was divine retribution for embracing the council.

>>660396

>EP appealed to the Pope, who confirmed that the emperor could remarry again

supposedly the emperors previous wives died before though, can't find a source atm

If you're autistic and can't not deal with absolutes, no.

But if you understand the difference between Theoria and Praxis, yes, it changed very little in the Theoria side of things.

Praxis is ever changing but forever within the bounds of Theoria, as it should be.

>>660363

No.

>>660418

>orthos constantly meme "we are le ancient faith, unchanged"

>what about how in the last century you went from being against contraception to allowing it? Or divorce is allowed?

>well I mean in theory we haven't changed

This board has turned into a complete meme. I'm glad I started reading the Church Fathers otherwise I'd have fallen into the orthomeme.

>>660452

You're right, my friend. One of the reasons why I have attempted to spend more time at church and reading than coming here. I think this board causes far more doubt to ones practice and faith than it does at building it, as evidenced by all the "What denomination should I be now" threads.

>>660452

>Or divorce is allowed?

See >>660364

>>660452

>I'm glad I started reading the Church Fathers otherwise I'd have fallen into the orthomeme.

That's funny, the Fathers had the opposite effect for me.

>>660363

>Is the Orthodox church really unchanged?

Yes.

>>660574

are those quotes legit?

>>660574

Orthonon here Did some digging, here's the few legit ones I picked up (in no particular order):

>The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! "Father, the atheists?" Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. "But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!" But do good: we will meet one another there.

<As quoted in "Pope at Mass: Culture of encounter is the foundation of peace" at Vatican Radio (22 May 2013)

This quote as presented in the pic is straightforward and accurate.

>What is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another; it is a double life, a double life. A totally double life: "I am very Catholic, I always go to Mass, I belong to this association and that one; but my life is not Christian, I don’t pay my workers a just wage, I exploit people, I am dirty in my business, I launder money …" A double life. And so many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others. How many times have we heard — all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere — "but to be a Catholic like that, it’s better to be an atheist." It is that, scandal. You destroy. You beat down. And this happens every day, it’s enough to see the news on TV, or to read the papers. In the papers there are so many scandals, and there is also the great publicity of the scandals. And with the scandals there is destruction.

<Homily at the morning Mass at the Casa Santa Marta (23 February 2017), as quoted in "Pope: Don't put off conversion, give up a double life" at Vatican Radio (23 February 2017); also quoted in "Did Pope Francis Say It Was Better to Be an Atheist Than a Bad Catholic? at snopes.com (28 February)

This one from the pic is a bit more iffy, since Francis isn't saying that himself, but rather saying how he's heard it said.

Still, it can and certainly has been be used to scandalize, ironically enough.

Here he is praying in a mosque ( https://hooktube.com/watch?v=OR9HOJNEYvI )

As far as the quote about the Bible and the Koran, that's fake. So is the one about atheism being fine if you have a "clean conscience."

Can't find anything about opening the borders to Muslims or defending the Religion of Peace although I wouldn't put it past him.

Review: some legit quotes that are concerning, everything else is bunk.

>>660586

>Are these """""quotes""""" from the Holy Father reported by the (((MSM))) legitimate?

No, of course not.

Even Snopes considers these quotes to be fake.

>>660595

>Here he is praying in a mosque ( https://hooktube.com/watch?v=OR9HOJNEYvI )

TOP winnie the pooh KEK

>>660595

>As far as the quote about the Bible and the Koran, that's fake. So is the one about atheism being fine if you have a "clean conscience."

Maybe you just haven't searched hard enough?

>>660595

>Here he is praying in a mosque ( https://hooktube.com/watch?v=OR9HOJNEYvI )

Surely this is the vicar of Christ

>>660452

You and I used theory in different meanings.

To act against Theoria is to change Theoria.

Contraception is not canon, neither is usury. And I personally don't endorse any of the two. Yet when priests go against those teachings, they are wrong. The modernist heresy doesn't even go against the teachings, they just ignore it. Especially usury.

As much as it hurts your perfectionism, individuals in a true Chruch can be wrong.

Invalid marriages have been in Church prior and confirmed by ecumenical councils that define Christianity in the 4th and following centuries. If your wife leaves you or breaks her vows, she is obviously in the wrong but not you, you're just the victim. To claim a man must not marry a woman even though his wife left him, is talmudic lawyerism. The priest is not a magician, he can't marry an unwilling partner to a willing one because he is not in the position of God, as the kikes believe the rabbis are.

The priest can't marry you to someone who doesn't will so.

And neither will you suffer in the afterlife if you couldn't get to confession after gettting your last stiffy to a nurse in your death bed. The priest is not a magician.

There have been people who have lawyered their ways to divorce their partners for wordly reasons but again, they are wrong even if they declare themselves Orthodox, they are under prelest or malicious intent and are not acting as what they claim. Much like a wife who tricks man by lying about her desire to have children.

>>660654

“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.” (Pope Eugene IV)

“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands." (Pope Clement V)

"[…]Mohammed said that he was sent in the power of his arms – which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning. Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Mohammed forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimony of the Old and the New Testaments by making them into a fabrication of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place faith in his words believe foolishly." (St. Thomas Aquinas)

The apostasy of the Church was vastly foretold in catholic prophecy.

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand-let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

"These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the Spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.(Pope Leo XIII)

"I saw again the strange big church that was being built there in Rome. There was nothing holy in it. Then my Heavenly Spouse bound me as He Himself had been bound to the pillar, and He said: 'So will the Church yet be bound. She will be tightly bound before she shall again arise." (Bl.Anne Catherine Emmerich)

"Rome would lose the Faith and become the seat of the antichrist . . . The Church will be in eclipse."(Our Lady of La Salette)

"Hence, the devil has always endeavored to deprive die world of the Mass by means of the heretics, constituting them the precursors of antichrist, whose first efforts will be to abolish the holy sacrifice of the altar; and, in punishment of the sins of men, his efforts will, according to the prophet Daniel, be successful. "And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice because of sins" (Dan. viii. 12)" (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

"Father, the Blessed Virgin is very sad because no one heeds her message; neither the good nor the bad. The good continue on with their life of virtue and apostolate, but they do not unite their lives to the message of Fatima. Sinners keep following the road of evil because they do not see the terrible chastisement about to befall them. Believe me, Father, God is going to punish the world and very soon. The chastisement of heaven is imminent. In less than two years, 1960 will be here and the chastisement of heaven will come and it will be very great. Tell souls to fear not only the material punishment that will befall us if we do not pray and do penance but most of all the souls who will go to hell." (Sister Lucy (visionary at Fatima) in an interview with Father Augustin Fuentes on December 26, 1957 A.D)

Also, you need only ONE verse of the Bible to prove the papacy.

No, as a Russian I've seen some horrific things on the state channels going on in the Church. It definitely has changed on the state and institutional level, but there's people who still do maintain the faith and the church in all its glory but these people are isolated, geographically and to a certain extent spiritually. And it's possible they'll go extinct for a short period of time if Russians continue to tread about the way they do and slander God through their perversity, a lot of Russians today are sly crypto-fascists very eager to see the USSR restored in all it's glory; out of vanity and pride of course, and the true Christians suffer greatly at the hands of these types because they are viewed as sectarians for believing in a Russia under god, instead of a Russia mismanaged and mangled by a Godless government.

Does anybody here know about these councils here in "Later Councils" https://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils? Any changes that are worth highlighting?? My understanding was also that Orthodoxy hadn't changed since the ecumenical council of Nicea.

>>660363

>>667122

Have you looked at the Church of Christ?

>>660363

nope only the oriental orthodox church is unchanged, the eastern orthodox church fell into heresy at the council of chalcedon in 451.ad

>>660363

From my researches, its mostly external facade. They do have interesting philosophies, but they don't govern their Church from what I can see they just let cults and charlatans roam free and unexcommunicated.

They changed their doctrine to make the Pope the first among equals. Which is a complete invention since they said in the council of Florence that they would belive again in papal supremacy as it used to be pre schism.

They just invented meme issues to separete themselves from western Europe.

And besides they are heretics because they allow divorce.

>>667140

>thinks the enoch and jubilees are Scripture

lad…

Mary is the THEOtokos btw.

>>660692

>"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand-let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

This is the only Scripture passage. And this isn't some catholic prophecy. It is supposed to be treated properly as the word of God. Don't mix the word of God with words of men.

>>667371

>And besides they are heretics because they allow divorce.

That's been true since long before the schism. Basically everything about divorce and remarriage is taken from Basil the Great's epistles.

>>660363

They have gone through liturgical reforms in the 17th century, known as the reforms of Patriarch Nikon.

They even have their own version of sedevacantists who resist these changes, known as Old Believers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

>>667544

Really only affected the Russians.

>>667544

That affected only the Russian Orthodox Church because their liturgy was different to the other orthodox churches, Nikon chose to make it like the other orthodox churches and the old believers didn't like it.