/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Feed your kids, confirm them, and let your potential priests get married to godly potential presbyteras

>>655751

Isn't the whole point of them not marrying is to be like Christ and be married to the Church (the Mystical Bride)?

"The report determined that, during the period from 1950 to 2002, a total of 10,667 individuals had made allegations of child sexual abuse. Of these, the dioceses had been able to identify 6,700 unique accusations against 4,392 clergy over that period in the USA, which is about 4% of all 109,694 ordained clergy i.e. priests or deacons or members of religious orders, active in the USA during the time covered by the study.[2] Roughly 4% of them were accused. However, of these 4392 accused, only 252 (5.7% of those accused or less than 0.1% of total clergy) were convicted. The number of alleged abuses increased in the 1960s, peaked in the 1970s, declined in the 1980s, and by the 1990s had returned to the levels of the 1950s."

source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Nature-and-Scope-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-and-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf

>>655752

Celibacy is a calling and the priesthood is a calling. Having both callings is a blessed thing, but assuming one because of the other leads to problems we see all over. Not to imply this is solely a Latin problem, but have you see some of theirs priests, they get creepy if they weren't already when they were ordained

>>655755

So you think that the numbers pointed out above are ultimately due to sexual frustration? I know St. Paul speaks of marriage only for those who "need it" - for lack of better words, but is that all? Certainly celibacy itself won't fix this issue, nor does it rectify the collective issues that have accumulated up to this point.

I've got a lot of problems as it is, and I have a hard enough time trusting the Church as it is, the last thing I want to think about is the priest at my local parish can't be left alone with my children. That's just horrible, but according to this data, I've got a 1 in 50 chance of my kid getting screwed.

>>655756

Ultimately, who knows. I just don't think forced celibacy for all priests has proven to be a good practice, and it's not traditionally necessary or even necessary in the eastern rites or Anglican convert exceptions, so I don't know why they keep pushing this over and over. I also don't want to blame it all on neglecting pedoconfirmation and pedocommunion, but I can't believe there is no relation at all

>>655757

So what do we do? And am I supposed to just sit idly by while this stuff happens? What is the Vatican doing about all of this?

Also, I'm noticing there is a freaky amount of information about this particular topic from the year 2002 in particular, which is the same year the Spotlight journalism took off (that netflix made the movie on). I wouldn't doubt it if some of this was propaganda, but certainly not all of it.

What can we do? I want to leave the Catholic Church so badly but I'm cornered with fear, knowing if I don't get the proper sacraments I am doomed.

>priestly celibacy

1 Timothy 4:1-5

>>655758

>So what do we do?

BEGOME ORDODOX

>And am I supposed to just sit idly by while this stuff happens? What is the Vatican doing about all of this?

As much as I might doubt the Latin church I also think they probably get way more bad publicity than they should. Find a parish that you can establish yourself at with a spiritual father you can trust with yourself and any children you have and work as you can locally, leave any more to your bishops unless you have some seriously specialized blessings

You should leave the Roman Church, but not because pedo-priests. You should seriously examine the theological claims of the Churches who are the actual players, basically just Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, and stick with whichever Church you believe holds the correct views and the most undisturbed succession through thick and thin

Every good catholic man who is unmarried is forced to give up all sex.

Any argument that clerical celibacy causes pedophilia is also an argument that incels on nofap will become pedos.

Just a thought.

>>655762

I agree.

I would like to further add that I am speculating that for 1,700 years, since Constantinople, that the RCC has falsely assumed power and became one of the most powerful institutions in the world. The only reason I became Catholic was to be as close to the original Church as possible (Mt 16:18, & Pentecost), but now I'm not so sure.

JUST end it my dude, endless doubt

>>655762

Nofap and incels largely want to find a virtuous wife. Big difference from an institution that commands certain members to not marry, and then places them in the company of young men. It's like dumping blood in the water and not expecting sharks to show up. Also,

>1 Timothy 4:1-5

>>655748

The answer is Jesus Christ, not some man-made organization. Does the Bible not say we are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth? That said, nothing wrong with being part of the RCC, but that doesn't automatically mean you are part of the One True Church nor does it preclude you.

>>655768

This is where my internal struggle lies. Either I need valid Sacraments from the Church, or the True Chuch is a spiritual body and does not consist of a real, living institution as in a parish or Rome. I don't want to take the chance of allowing my doubt to take over so I can live a comfier life because I was too afraid to brave the darkness, but at the same time I don't want to be entertaining a wolf in sheeps clothing because I am operating out of fear instead of love.

JUST

>>655762

>Any argument that clerical celibacy causes pedophilia is also an argument that incels on nofap will become pedos.

Are you arguing against clerical celibacy?

>>655783

yes, thank you for your enlightening and very Christian post, you have successfully converted me back to Protestantism with your intellectual reply, I am now motivated to spill blood over allegations that you have so wonderfully proven

get a grip, Protestants

>>655786

I'm not Protestant, I'm Orthodox. Your crimes are beyond counting, we will make you bleed until you've bled your last.

>1998 - Abuse from 20 years ago

>2008 - Abuse from 30 years ago

>2018 - Abuse from 40 years ago

>endless stream

>>655789

If you spill blood in the name of God, you will suffer. You need to go back and read the Gospels before you begin preaching.

>>655794

>If you spill blood in the name of God, you will suffer.

Yes, this is why Catholics must suffer.

>>655795

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

>>655797

I don't need your cherrypicking of Bible books.

>But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

>Deuteronomy 20:16

And so on and so forth across the whole OT.

>>655798

You're not digging anyone's grave but your own if you're going to purposely ignore the teachings of Christ in favor for the old way of things. You may as well just convert to judaism at this point. Repent; bloodlust is never okay.

>>655799

>to purposely ignore the teachings of Christ in favor for the old way of things.

You are so stupid. You don't even understand what Christ refers to. I've talked enough to you.

>>655800

>comes in a thread wanting to kill all Catholics

>ignores the Gospels

>doesn't even bother explaining his position

Obviously I'm not missing out on much because you didn't really talk to begin with.

>>655800

"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."

"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."

'But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 'If he struck him down with a stone in the hand, by which he will die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 'Or if he struck him with a wooden object in the hand, by which he might die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death"

"A man who is laden with the guilt of human blood Will be a fugitive until death; let no one support him."

there is some cherry picking for you, I can keep going.

REPENT

>>655798

Citing out of context verses from the OT when it suits them is a typical protestant tactic, just saying.

>>655748

I would strongly suggest investing youself with Western Rite Orthodoxy. You would find yourself right at home.

>>655748

The latin Church is corrupt in this regard.

Again, it's not the first time, and we need reforms like St. Peter Damian's, that fought against this 1000 years ago.

I mean, even in the middle ages, monk-teachers and priests were not allowed alone with kids, as a safety measure.

>>655769

>Either I need valid Sacraments from the Church, or the True Chuch is a spiritual body and does not consist of a real, living institution as in a parish

The first part is true.

The second part is a Reformation meme.

t.orthodox

>>655748

>endless-stream of pedophillia inside the Church

He said, when not knowing that Catholic Priest is one of the least if not the least likely profession for pedophiles.

>endless-stream of pedophillia inside the Church

He said, not knowing that (((for some reason))) media will jump upon even the slightest allegation of Catholic clergy while ignoring cases in which there was no guilt found.

>endless-stream of pedophillia inside the Church

He said, not knowing that (((for some reason))) these sandals are almost all from decades ago and by (((pure coincidence))) after statute of limitations expired.

Woe to them! They perished in the rebellion of Korah

>>655870

dude the link is right in the OP, that was sourced from last month

I'm so tired of this "never happened/happened long ago so forget about it", it's not like it's that far-fetched. Priest are still human. Judas was among the 12. Pretending like it's *all* propaganda without being able to prove that is, as much as I hate to say, unbelievable.

The whole point of me making this thread was to heal my mistrust for the Church; I'm not attacking it, but I REFUSE to be illogical about this.

>>655856

>I mean, even in the middle ages, monk-teachers and priests were not allowed alone with kids, as a safety measure.

Source on the not being alone with kids regulation?

>>655762

Nofappers WILL become pedos.

I nofapped for a year and developed a crush on a 8 year old girl.

Now I tale libido-killing benzos so its ok tho.

>>655767

So the Church created by God is an EBIL institution because the voluntary priests can't have orgies?

And if they wanted to break their vows, they would hire a prostitute or seduce a nun. Your retarded theories are as stupid as saying that if you place someone doing nofap in front of a child, they will rape him.

>>655915

>everyone is a pedo at heart

Nope

>>655915

https://aeon.co/essays/medieval-wisdom-about-teachers-behaving-badly

>Take the example of Ælfric Bata, a monastic teacher active around the year 1000. He composed a set of surprisingly modern dialogues to teach his pupils conversational Latin. The imaginary boys of his Colloquies learn simple phrases for describing the weather, playing outside, eating and drinking, telling the time, and planning a trip. Still, the Colloquies would be difficult to imagine in a 21st-century classroom. The boys argue viciously, at one point descending into a raucous exchange of insults in Latin, such as ‘Tu scibalum ouis’ (You sheep shit!), ‘Tu fimus bouis’ (You cow dung!), and ‘Tu stercus porci’ (You pig turd!).

>Characters threaten each other with violence, and a teacher savagely beats a boy accused of stealing an apple. The older monks, who ought to be carefully watching over the boys’ moral upbringing, barely know how to behave themselves. They get roaring drunk before going to pray, ask boys for kisses or to accompany them to the toilet.

>It would be a mistake to think that these acts were more innocent then than now. The Regularis Concordia, a late-10th-century guide to monastic life, prohibited hugs or kisses between older monks or abbots and children. Instead, older monks were told to love younger ones only in their hearts, and with ‘great caution’. Nor were older and younger monks allowed to go off in pairs, even if the excuse was a spiritual matter. The teacher was to accompany his pupils at all times, watching to prevent sexual activity or abuse. In fact, even teachers were enjoined not to spend time alone with boys, and to make sure a third person was always present as a chaperone. While Bata’s monastery might not have adhered to these rules strictly, there is good reason to think that he knew them.

And i think i recall what happened to pedo priests in those times(don't know if i can find the source, though).

They got shipped off to a monastery, tied to something, and brutalized till they dreaded even thinking of it.

Extremely winnie the poohed up, but still.

Pedophilia has always been a scourge the Western Church had to fight against.

>>655915

Sorry anon, but that sounds to me like a personal problem, rather than something that can be universalized to all people attempting nofap.

>>655920

> And if they wanted to break their vows, they would hire a prostitute or seduce a nun

Indeed. The normal response to failing celibacy would be to commit a relatively normal heterosexual sin. Similarly, if you're stuck in prison and you don't want to be celibate, the normal response would be to jerk off, not to rape your fellow inmates. Going prison gay is utterly absurd for the normal heterosexual male.

>>655927

>Going prison gay is utterly absurd for the normal heterosexual male.

It's kind of proven that when you put a lot of creatures of the same sex in a small space with little to do, weird-ass shit happens.

Homosexual intercourse, sudden aggressive behaviour, unexplainable murders, etc.

I don't really know why buy my theory is because you're driving them mad.

It's like how you can see homosexual behaviour with animals wayyy more in captivity than in nature, and why some animals suddenly show irregular habits (circle-walking, aggressive outbursts/tantrums, no hunger).

>>655915

t.consumed loli crap for years

Right ? I can smell the hentai collection under your bed from here smh

You don't develop pedophilic thoughts and cravings just from not wanking you homo, you develop them because you're mentally ill - for whichever reason. It's a condition, not a feature of living chaste. The rest was explained ITT more than enough.

>>655877

>that was sourced from last month

<Juan Barros, a bishop who had been accused of covering up alleged abuse by a Chilean priest, Fernando Karadima, in the 1980s and 90s.

I never claimed that abuses did not happen. But to overestimate it is grave sin of scandal.

Have some obedience and humility. Learn about pornocracy. Do not be scandalised.

>>655932

I mean how in the f'ing world does a grown man (provided this guy isn't just 11 y/o, which is very possible) develop a "crush" on an 8 y/o ? Disgusting. I'll pray for you, because bro you have issues.

>>655856

>The second part is a Reformation meme.

Says who?

>>655920

>So the Church created by God is an EBIL institution because the voluntary priests can't have orgies?

The church is not some specific sect. Having rules prohibiting marriage goes against scripture. And we're talking about marriage not orgies, you strawmanning pervert.

>And if they wanted to break their vows, they would hire a prostitute or seduce a nun.

Or they abuse an altar boy. Let's not pretend this isn't a problem with your sect. The rest of your post is more strawmanning idiocy.

>>655996

>Having rules prohibiting marriage goes against scripture

A man devoted completely to God is better as a priest than a married one.

If priestly celibacy wasn't a thing, the Church would've been smaller.

>>655927

>The normal response to failing celibacy would be to commit a relatively normal heterosexual sin

Yeah for a normal person, but pedophiles and sodomites (large overlap) oftentimes apply for jobs where they get to be around potential victims. Like I said, your church is pouring blood in the water and acting surprised when sharks show up.

>>655748

>>655933

>>655783

>>655754

>>655789

>>655795

>>655807

>orthos notorious for slaughter of catholics EXPOSED

<article about study that finds that sexual abuse much more prevalent in California public school system than in Catholic Churches:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/forgotten-study-abuse-in-school-100-times-worse-than-by-priests

>>655999

>A man devoted completely to God is better as a priest than a married one.

Celibacy to focus on God is excellent, for those who can do it. But they shouldn't be leading flocks. They should be doing evangelism or studying in solitude.

http://www.acts29.com/biblical-qualifications-of-a-pastor/

>>655909

oops, here's your link

>>655925

>>655927

It may surprise you to know that nobody is forced to be priest, retard. Nobody istalking about masturbation.

>>655996

You have no authority to determine what goes or not against scripture. The people who can do that are the ones who compiled scripture in the first place. It amuses me how you try to use the words fedoras try to use to demonize religion, like sect etc.

Whoever wants marriage has the option to not to be a priest. It is that easy. Or they can leave priesthood. Or they can hire a prostitute. You are insane, and there is a couple of problems with your brain if you think that those who rape a child weren't intending to do so from the beginning. Maybe your dysfunctional brain is not able to understand that people don't suddenly become pedophiles. But I guess nothing is impossible for the absurd mind of the protestantism and his apostolic roleplaying fanfics.

>>655990

Says I

>>655762

<Any argument that clerical celibacy causes pedophilia is also an argument that incels on nofap will become pedos.

>Implying pedos aren't incels

>>656002

Priests are married to the Church, like Christ.

bump

The Church is both Holy and sinful. How can it not be sinful, if it is composed entirely of sinners shepherded by a sinner and it's been like this ever since St. Peter?

And how can it not be Holy, if it's the original Apostolic Church, the very same organization, about which Christ said "the gates of Hell shall not overcome it".

We, no matter the vocation or position, are all sinners, it can not be any other way. But that doesn't mean the Apostolic Succession was ever in any way broken or misplaced. The Church is Holy in that it's dogma and doctrine are correct and it has legitimate claim of being the original church left on earth by the Apostles, the very people about whom the Gospels speak in their specific persons as the ones Christ himself sent away to teach all nations, the same who accompanied him intimately in the last three years of his time as one of Us. These people founded an organization headed by - on Jesus' explicit request, order and command - a sinner who denied his master, Peter. This organization is alive and more or less well and it is the Roman Catholic Church. It is as much the original Church as the original British Monarchy is the British Monarchy. These guys made a club and this club survived, it's structure, lineage, wisdom, everything the Holy Tradition consists of, are True and Correct in the most profound way.

At the same time the people who kept this Tradition and Teaching intact were susceptible to sin. How could it be any other way?

If you and eleven other guys are trusted to keep an Idea soundly intact because it's important, and I mean very, very important, you won't leave its safety to the general public, suspended in culture. You make a society, a community, whose members you task with preserving your Incredibly Important Idea. Idea like literal miracles happening, witnessed by thousands of people who've experienced Our Lord's supernatural miracles and who now, after His Passion and Death are left in sadness, terror and anger. Or perhaps just apathy.

You see the Miracle-maker who taught you for three years - the man you believe to be the God of Abraham Incarnate in a human body - risen from the dead in a god-like, transcendent form, exactly as he foretold. He tells you personally to make sure the things he said are kept and you make winnie the pooh sure the things he said are kept.

And if not sinners, who else? A Church led not by us but by will-less Magical Automatons from the Sky, incapable of wrong? Would you believe one of these guys if they went up a pulpit and told you to not sin? And how would faith? Wouldn't the existence of a measurably faultless being be supernatural itself and thus render faith invalid? Complete and utter absurd.

And why not leaderless and structureless? That doesn't work too, people always attain positions of power, some because of their pride and greed, other's to serve, the overwhelming majority because of some combination of these two.

Sinfulness of priests and truthfulness of the Word are not at all mutually exclusive.

>>656141

OP here thank you, that was a good reply, screencapped

>>655748

Rampant clericalism. Get rid of the celibacy requirement (you KNOW what the scripture says about this) and repudiate the doctrine of supererogation.

>>656150

Oh, and remember when Pope Francis said "Who am I to judge?" That was about a cleric accused of homosexual acts. In Argentina, about the bishops? "Calumny"? Again, protecting the hierarchy. The left, the right, all point to a careerist hierarchy as the source of the rot. The answers are in Scripture!

>>656076

SEE this is the kind of dishonest revisionist hermeneutic that is so RAMPANT in Rome. Do you really think 1 Tim 3 meant some sort of hypothetical or spiritual children to the original recipients? Or are you retconning that to fit? Do you think own households in verse 5 meant the same thing as the Church IN THE SAME VERSE? Rome, turn back!

>>656155

It's a continuing pain. Were that we all were better. God give me the strength to yell at my own flock in this way, I can think of some who would be edified by it.

>>655789

>false flag

>>656001

>Study published in 2004 with sources from previous years

>A period where the Catholic Church was notoriously silent and where only recently data of abuses was coming out

But the main problem here is an implict blind defense:

>Oh, it's worse in the California school system, so in comparison, it's not a big deal bruh.

>>656218

>An erring leader should be done away with is therefore the point.

Incredible, you actually get it.

The fact that the leader who does the act is then protected and kept in the fold is all the proof anyone ever needed that it is a wicked organization. All else is ultimately distraction from that. You get a molestor who is simply relocated and everyone told to pretend nothing happened. Absolutely vile, and this is how you turn to defend it. I guess thats honestly what you would expect from a cult though.

>>656218

>>656233

I wonder what you would have said about the corpse trial. It's ok, the Church will be with us until the end.

>>656001

>sexual abuse much more prevalent in California public school system

This shouldn't surprise anyone considering it's California.

>>656024

Thanks. That's some messed up stuff.

>>656001

>at least we're better than the Sodom and Gomorrah on the pacific!

Catholics, you're better than this

> Is this evidence that there never was a true Church

If you replace the word 'church' with 'denomination', then you're correct.

There is only one true Church, which is the body of Christ.

> it truly is salvation by faith alone

By grace through faith. You don't need to be part of a denomination to be saved.

> I do not want to be tricked into funding a secret pedophile organization.

If you're part of the RCC, then you have bigger things to worry about, because the pope (and who knows how many more high ranking people in the Vatican) are NWO shills and possibly satanists.