/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

No belief? Hell.

The OT only refers to Sheol as the place of the dead. This is probably the equivalent of Hades in the NT. Jesus however, tells us of Gehenna and Paradise, both of which are separate from Sheol.

Sheol = Hades

Gehenna = Hell

Paradise = Heaven

>>654305

so like every one in europe was going to hell for like thousands of years even though there was no jesus ? Kind of dark answer to be honest.

>>654307

Sheol and Heaven are different in the way that facilities were different during segregation in 60s.

>>654317

OK, this actually makes a lot of sense but who exactly got to stay in hell and who didn't?

>>654322

The one's who reject the Truth stay in hell, while the one's who accept it are saved.

>>654304

there's not really any definite answer. limbo, a place of a perfect natural happiness, was theorized to be the definition of virtuous pagans. whether this is the case or not, there's no way god would fail to prepare a place for everyone in accordance with his justice and mercy. whatever that is, i'm sure it's much better than anything i can conceive

>>654370

>the definition of virtuous pagans

i meant destination!!!

>Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

>Ecclesiastes 9:10

Purgatory

>>654307

What makes you sure Gehenna is a spiritual place? It was a physical place next to Jerusalem where the Canaanites used to sacrifice children to Baal and the Jews used it as a burnable trash dump.

Sheol is a spiritual place, Paradise/Heaven is a spiritual place, Gehenna is a physical place, an allegory for the pain of non-existence.

-Annilationist perspective

I'm not sure that it matters which one believes (because dying in non-belief still has awful consequences), I'm not set on either, but I find this argument somewhat compelling and invite people to convince me otherwise.

>>654382

He's wrong, gehenna, sheol, and hades are all referring to the same place, hell. You're wrong, hell is described as a place of unending torment. Where their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.

>>654382

Jesus clearly equates Gehenna with a spiritual place, separate from the Kingdom of God, which is paradise/Heaven.

Matthew 10:28: "….rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."

Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."

Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."

Luke 12:5: "….fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him."

Sheol in Hebrew means "place of the dead". It does not have a pain and torment connotation like Hell does in English. Similarly, Hades does not have a connotation with pain and torment in Greek. Sheol is equated with Hades in the New Testament.

Psalm 16:10

Hebrew: "לא־תעזב נפשׁי לשׁאול".

English: you will not abandon my soul to Sheol.

Luke quotes this Psalm in Acts 2:27:

Greek: "οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου"

English: you will not abandon my soul to Hades

So from all this we see Gehenna is a spiritual place of eternal torment, which we know in English as Hell. Sheol and Hades, are the same place. So now we ask, is Hell separate from Hades?

Rev 20:14 says: Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So if Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, which we know is Gehenna/Hell, the two cannot be the same. Hades cannot be thrown into itself. Therefore, we can conclude Hades/Sheol is not Hell/Gehenna, but both are spiritual places.

>>654386

>gehenna, sheol, and hades are all referring to the same place, hell.

wrong.

>>654311

There's a hiddren assumption here. And it is that humans can be good without knowing Christ. That is false.

Native Americans weren't praying on a monastery hoping for salvation, our very corrupt nature will separate us from God if we had never heard the Gospel.

To believe otherwise is heresy and I'd say satanism, to believe otherwise is to believe in the noble savage myth. Which, subsequently, denies the fall of man from Grace (THE VERY BASE OF HUMAN NATURE IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH) and that men can be good without God, that's the satanist part.

>>654322

Same as on Earth, those willing to dedicate their very being to Christ.

>>654393

>Matthew 10:28: "….rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."

This sounds like annihilationism

The other verses are ambiguous.

Do you see what I mean though, it seems like Gehenna in these instances is metaphor for God's destruction of the soul, i.e. the wages of sin are death- not a place of everlasting torment.

There should be an assumption that, upon being thrown into fire, your soul is destroyed.

Again, jury's out on this issue for me, but it is a compelling position because there's other instances of scriptural support. Those verse don't seem, to me, to suggest Gehenna is a spiritual place but rather an event- annihilation.

>Rev 20:14 says: Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

>So if Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, which we know is Gehenna/Hell, the two cannot be the same. Hades cannot be thrown into itself. Therefore, we can conclude Hades/Sheol is not Hell/Gehenna, but both are spiritual places.

So you believe the events of revelation have already happened? I'm just exploring what this means.

>>654398

>This sounds like annihilationism

I don't know anything about that so I will not speak to it.

>The other verses are ambiguous.

I disagree, particularly with regard to Mark 9:47.

>"It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."

It seems to me in this verse Jesus presents "the Kingdom of God" and Gehenna as alternatives to each other. You can either enter to the Kingdom of God or be cast into Gehenna. We both agree that "the Kingdom of God" is a spiritual place, so why do you think Gehenna is not also equated with a spiritual place in this verse?

Also, regarding Luke 12:5

>"…fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him."

It seems to me "after He has killed" refers to our physical death. But "after" as used here is a set up what can happen next, namely being "cast into Gehenna." So it seems to me that we can indeed go to Gehenna as a spiritual place, after we die. I suppose Jesus could be referring to physical cremation, but I don't get that from the context. In verse 8 Jesus talks about publicly recognizing Him before the angels of God, who are spiritual beings. Similarly, in verse 4, Jesus speaks to those who kill the body "and after that have no more that they can do". If cremation were intended, I think Jesus would not mentioned that no more can happen after killing the body.

>it seems like Gehenna in these instances is metaphor for God's destruction of the soul

Gehenna was a physical place, so why would he use the name of a physical place to refer to a destruction of the soul, without including the connotation of a "place", spiritual or otherwise? I think Jesus intended the destruction of the soul to be in a particular spiritual "place." I don't read in these verse a reference to an "event"; I do understand these verses to reference a "place with unquenchable fire."

>So you believe the events of revelation have already happened?

No. I don't understand where you got that from.

>>654403

>It seems to me…

You don't seem very sure. Well, let me assure you that these are all terms for hell. And that it serves no one's interest to euphemize it by using foreign words where you can control the connotations of the word to your whim as you do. So once you are more sure about these things, you can try to talk about it again, and I'm sure you'll have come around to the truth.

You can start in Luke 16.

>>654403

Your arguments are entirely plausible, but so is my proferred alternative.

Being thrown in the fire, or cast into Gehenna could be a metaphor for destruction of the soul (i.e. annihilationism) as opposed to eternal damnation.

What I'm hoping for is scriptural support of ongoing torment rather than it always being mentioned as a singular event.

Now, there is scriptural support for souls being in Hades/Sheol, since Christ's time in Hades/Sheol is mentioned in one of Peter's epistles.

But- you don't think the two are joined yet, so that's not evidence that any souls are in Gehenna. Rather, being deposited in Gehenna could still just mean permanent removal from existence.

So you believe the events of revelation have already happened?

>No. I don't understand where you got that from.

Well, if revelation hasn't happened yet, then Sheol/Hades and Gehenna would still be separate, no?

>>654419

>What I'm hoping for is scriptural support of ongoing torment rather than it always being mentioned as a singular event.

Sure, take your pick from any of these mentions:

Revelation 14:10-11

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mark 9:43-47

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Revelation 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

>where the beast and the false prophet are

So here it says that one thousand years later, the beast and the false prophet are still there. So take your pick, it first directly says that it lasts forever, day and night; Jesus also says their worm and their fire is not quenched repeatedly (as also said in the last verse of Isaiah) and then Revelation also shows an example of how one thousand years goes by and the two who were cast into it are still there.

>>654304

Sheol, even jews went there

שאול - she'ol and גיהנום - gehennom both mean hell.

The word gehennom was a physical place in Canaan but the name later became a word for hell.

the outer darkness.

>>654518

There are no other afterlives.

>>654427

You forgot to address this one:

So you believe the events of revelation have already happened?

>No. I don't understand where you got that from.

Well, if revelation hasn't happened yet, then Sheol/Hades and Gehenna would still be separate, no?

Mark 9:43-47 is quite compelling.

Revelation is difficult because its so symbolic that interpreting any part of it literally is possible but not definite.

I will think more on it, but Mark 9:43 certainly pushed me back towards the "hell is an infinite torture" position.

The difference between being snuffed out and tortured forever doesn't make a huge difference to me since I have faith in Jesus but, perhaps coming to a certain conclusion on it will help me better understand the ways of God which would, in turn, help me be a better Christian.

The counter-point to Mark 9:43-47 is that it is borrowing from Isaiah and that those are all corpses - i.e. the fire is never quenched and the worms never die, but that does mean the person thrown in continues to exist, just that their corpses shall be on display for all eternity.

On the other hand, some commentator wrote the fire is symbolic of a purifying fire, like for a sacrifice. In that case, I wonder if God is putting sinner through purification and their continual rejection of purification (i.e. continuous evil thoughts) means that they stay in the fire forever… that would make sense.

Your thoughts?

>>654427

first, read:

>>654645

But, I've found a scripture that unambiguously supports the concept of eternal punishment:

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Though "punishment" could be rendered, strongs suggest as "chastisement" which relates back to the fire being a method of purification which goes on forever because the subject denies it.

>>654645

>You forgot to address this one:

>So you believe the events of revelation have already happened?

Oh sorry, I'm not that other poster. But to answer this, the events described in Revelation have not yet happened.

>just that their corpses shall be on display for all eternity.

There are plenty of places that describe the wicked as existing in the grave, being silent in the grave, hearing the voice of God in the grave.

You can equate being dead as the same thing as being in hell. Because for a child of God, being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6). See also,

Luke 20:38

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Psalm 6:5

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

John 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

>>654304

>where did everyone go before jesus

Synagogue

>not a single straight answer to OP's question

wew

Related: what happens to people who have never even heard the Gospel? Like tribes in Papa New Guinea and stuff…

>>654304

No one has the definite answer. My guess is that since the Law is written upon all of our hearts. Those who did their best to live righteously and according to His will even without knowing Him and those who willingly gave their lives to save others could have been given a chance to encounter His messengers or even our Lord Himself during at the hour of their passing, accepted Him, and went unto heaven. For our Lord is merciful.

>>654973

>>654307

It is. Both words mean grave. Judgment does not come until the end times when Sheol (Hades) is emptied and destroyed along with death.

>>654976

The only answer I got was that jesus went to the underworld and did his jesus thing there while he was dead, everything else was a bunch of stuff I didn't really understand.

>>654976

>Romans 2:12-16

>>654317

Why's it called the harrowing of hell if Jesus emptied out Sheol / Hades?

>>654304

Before Jesus, people were judged by the law of Israel. (Romans 2:12)

If they lived without the law of Israel, then their conscience was their law. (Romans 2:14-15)

>>657680

Law of Moses*

There are two main answers I know of.

The first is pretty much this >>654307

Sheol/Hades as a Limbus, a place of shadows and/or sleep for the souls waiting the final judgment.

The second is they are in hell but not for eternity. They will still be judged on the final day and the good will not be cast into the eternal fire. This view imply that hell before the final judgment is not hopeless, that some can still be saved through the prayers of the living.

In the case of our pagan ancestors, is up to the faith of their christian descendants.