/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>587753

Yes. But you won't.

>Can you sin as much as you want

yes

>Should you sin as much as you want

no

look into penal substitutionary atonement theory, it'll make sola fide make more sense.

>>587755

That seems unmoral

>>587753

> I dont get sola fide.

No one really does, because it's a 16th century Protestant invention that doesn't make sense.

The man who invented it, Martin Luther, used to frequent confession obsessively and from a medical standpoint he showed symptoms of schizophrenia. I think he invented Sola Fide in order to ease his mind, but the Church has always rejected this notion of salvation by faith alone (you can look at the Early Church and the earliest Christians, which will support what I said).

>>587763

>no one gets it

>it doesn't make sense

what are you confused about?

>>587763

That’s not in the spirit of charity

>>587753

Basically, sola fide is based on various different premises:

>1: nobody who sins is worthy of Heaven

>2: all people sin

>3: ergo, nobody is worthy of Heaven

That’s point one.

>1: Nobody is worthy of Heaven

>2: God wants people to go to Heaven

>3: ergo, only the work of God can get us to Heaven

That’s point two.

>1: Christ God died on the cross for our sins

>2: we have not seen the crucifixion, it is a mystery to us

>3: ergo, it is only through faith that we can trust in the cross to save us

That’s point three. To wit

>nobody is worthy of Heaven

>only the work of God can get us to Heaven

>it is only through faith that we can trust in the cross to save us

Here are verses that prove these points.

>For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

>There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10)

>Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)

>If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

>For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

>For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23)

>But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

>For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 5:3-4)

>For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:17-18)

>Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28-29)

>And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)

>Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5)

>Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1)

>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The entire New Testament supports this thesis. Man is corrupt, God is perfect, Jesus saved us by his sacrifice, and we are joined to it by faith. We believe then, because faith saves us, that slight differences in dogma aren’t Hell-worthy offenses, and we believe you must study scriptures to understand it. Catholics disagree, believing that eternal salvation is based entirely on whether you were a perfect Catholic in good standing at the moment of your death. They believe even a slight difference in dogma or practice condemns you to Hell. They even say if you are a faithful Catholic in every way but differ from the Church with regard to the doctrine of the immaculate conception, you are going to Hell.

>Hence, if anyone shall dare — which God forbid! — to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9ineff.htm

>>587768

Well said. if i may add to point 3.2

>2: we have not seen the crucifixion, it is a mystery to us

Even those present at the crucifixion, of course, have had to put their trust in the completed atoning sacrifice of Christ Jesus. Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

Philippians 3

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

>>587784

Don't worry, I reported him

:^)

>>587763

>from a medical standpoint he showed symptoms of schizophrenia

Would you like providing evidence for that ridiculous claim? Schizophrenia is a disease which leaves the one suffering unable to form a coherent line of thought, which would make it difficult for Luther to write masterpieces like The Bondage of the Will, or Concerning Christian Liberty.

>>587768

>>587779

There’s one more point that should be made, which is less saying what sola fide ‘’is’’ so much as what sola fide ‘’isn’t’’

Sola fide is the belief that you must specifically admit you are a sinner and call to God for salvation, placing your faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ our God to save you. I say this because it is often strawmanned to mean that if you express a vague belief in Jesus your soul is suddenly whisked away to Heaven. Many ask “Muslims believe in Jesus, are they saved?” or “many atheists believe in a historical Jesus, are they saved?” or the classic “Catholics have faith in Christ and works, so they should be saved under sola fide.” This is wrong. None of those groups even accept the basic points of sola fide, and sola fide isn’t a contract that God just didn’t think through

>>587787

Man I reported him too before it was edited, when I didn’t know it was a mod

>>587787

>>587794

What he say?

>>587768

>They believe even a slight difference in dogma or practice condemns you to Hell. They even say if you are a faithful Catholic in every way but differ from the Church with regard to the doctrine of the immaculate conception, you are going to Hell.

It's because we hold that said dogmas were revealed by God Himself, and as such disbelief in these teachings by someone fully conscious of the Divine authority behind them must by necessity mean either lack of faith in God's words or thinking that your views are more important than God's. In such disbelief, no matter how small the particular thing disbelieved is, is inherently contained faith in oneself stronger than faith in God, belief that your opinions are more important than God's; and for this reason, willful and chosen heresy is always gravely evil.

Obviously this reasoning doesn't concern people who not by their own fault or negligence don't know that something was revealed by God; this is called material heresy and isn't a sin.

>>587763

Dog-piling and a senseless warning. Pathetic!

Martin Luther obviously suffered from scrupulosity.

http://www.olmcfssp.org/uploads/Scrupulosity_7.15.12.pdf

No matter how many times he did confession or took communion, he took no solace in his own salvation, because he could not FEEL it.

This Luther, whom had no faith in the sacraments, would have to invent Sola Fide to justify his "faith" in the scriptures. I'll give Baptist's the benefit of the doubt here, at least they took Luther's own silly theology to its logical conclusion and tossed out the sacraments.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/22/1098316865171.html

Telling the truth is not being uncharitable, I'm sorry. The protestant reformation began at a TOILET, in Luther's own filthy words.

>"Luther said himself that he made his reformatory discovery in cloaca [Latin for "in the sewer"]. We just had no idea where this sewer was. Now it's clear what the reformer meant."

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What makes the find even more fitting is that at the time faecal language was often used to denigrate the devil, such as "I shit on the devil" or "I break wind on the devil". Professor Rhein said: "It was not a very polite time. And in keeping with this, neither was Luther very polite."

>>587813

>What makes the find even more fitting is that at the time faecal language was often used to denigrate the devil, such as "I shit on the devil" or "I break wind on the devil". Professor Rhein said: "It was not a very polite time. And in keeping with this, neither was Luther very polite.

>>587813

>Advertisement

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At least give us the dignity of reading what it is you want us to read

>>587813

We're talking about what scripture actually teaches right now, nobody mentioned the catholic reformer. But hey, you're only sabotaging yourself here by conceding scripture.

John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

>>587847

if you heareth His word then why don't you practice what He preached? Is it good enough to merely hear the beatitudes?

>>587863

I am practicing, yet not I, but the grace of God with me, as well as being saved and having knowledge and full assurance of the truth. Were you going to start with some works we should do to be saved? Maybe you were going to twist John chapter 6 again?

1 John 2:5

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

>>587863

>le protestants believe you have to sin meme

I don’t believe that you don’t understand the difference between “God won’t automatically send you to Hell for one sin” and “you’re supposed to sin.” I think you’re intentionally being dense.

>>587753

Yes you can friend.

>>587759

That's why only retards like prots follow that philosophy.

>>587755

>>587757

Err no sweety. Justification by faith alone not faith and works. He may or he may not for works are irrelevant to justification under sola fide

>>587877

>sweety

Post dropped then and there

Galatians 5:19-21: Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Read Romans. Will answer pretty much everything regarding sola fide.

1. None of us, not a single person in all of history and any conceivable person in the future is righteous enough to earn salvation.

Isaiah 64:6:

>We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Romans

>What then? Are we Jews any better off?

No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:

>“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.

>All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

>“Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.”

>“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

>“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”

>“Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery,

and the way of peace they have not known.”

>“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

>Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

>But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus

So we are all condemned for our sins, because God's standard is perfection, and no one but God is perfect. Which brings us to

2. Jesus Christ serves as our sacrificial lamb that takes away our sins. Jesus was perfect, and He fulfilled the whole law. He voluntarily gave Himself up to be our substitute. Because He is our advocate, then we are saved not because of our works, but because of He paid the debt for our sins, and we are, through Him, seen as spotless. That is the point of Christ coming and being sacrificed: to provide us a means to salvation.

3. Sola fide does not mean a license to sin. There's a misunderstanding especially on this board wherein people think that salvation through faith means that you can be a terrible sinner but say you believe in Jesus, and be saved. Sola fide refers to how we are saved, not how we should live our lives. As stated earlier, nobody can earn salvation by their own means - we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Salvation from through faith in Jesus Christ, because He is righteous and perfect, and He has fulfilled what is required for salvation.

>>587898

Continued…

Salvation through faith does not mean a license to sin. Apply common sense - if you truly have faith in Christ, then why would you live a life that represents a spit in the face of Him? If you say that you believe in fidelity in marriage, but have seven mistresses, do you really believe in fidelity in marriage? Of course not. As James says:

James 2:14-26:

>What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

>But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Paul also says something similar:

Romans 6:1-4: (read the whole chapter, ideally the whole letter)

>What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Basically: faith alone does NOT mean "sin as much as you want as long as you belive in Jesus", it means "you cannot earn your way to salvation, you can only have salvation through Christ"

>>587877

i don't understand what you're disagreeing with in my post, sugarpie

looks like we're 100% in agreement

>>587768

>They believe even a slight difference in dogma or practice condemns you to Hell

Don't Baptists believe that too? If anyone who believes in Christ is saved, wouldn't all Christians regardless of denomination be saved?

>>587914

Your question was answered here

>>587792

>>587792

>Sola fide is the belief that you must specifically admit you are a sinner

It's not a question of admission so much as repentance

>>587930

That's not a debate, that's sanctification and justification. This only seems split in some (wrong) circles.

>>587827

copypaste'd the relevant parts

>>587753

To understanding faith alone, you have to understand total depravity.

Humans ever since the fall are incapable of appeasing God, even our most righteousness deeds are filthy in His sight. But because of Jesus's sacrifice we're allowed to fully embrace God's grace in full submission of His decree and that's what we call faith, which once expected God's people are expected are to follow His commands and standards since that's what proceeds faith under His grace.