/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Because they're not going to say "Don't worry about this stuff you won't need to know for another 2000 years".

>>586217

>"Don't worry about this stuff you won't need to know for another 2000 years".

But people don't need to know it even now, do they? Most Christians aren't super worried about the eschaton.

Full preterism

>They thought the world would come to an end soon, but that (of course) didn't happen.

They thought their world was ending soon, the world of the Old Covenant. Seriously, read any book about orthodox preterist interpretation of Rev. and you'll finally get this.

>>586222

Heresy

>>586228

Can you explain this to me?

“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

Paul even makes the distinction between the dead, who will be "raised," and the living (him and the people he is talking to).

>>586231

> we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord

> we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord

My understanding is that by “we”, Paul means those in the Church who are alive when Christ returns. Paul wasn’t making a claim that he knew exactly when Christ would return, he simply was saying that the dead would be risen before those who were still alive would be taken up to Heaven.

Luke 12:35-48 for example warns us to always be alert as if He could return at any time, and to keep everything in order and maintain the master's house while we wait. This is the attitude of the first Christians, they feared that He could return at any time, but they still built up for the future. It's the same attitude we should take.

>>586215

It's recognized that the destruction of temple isn't the apocalypse of the world, that wouldn't make sense with other text, including the didache.

There are two different end times spoken of in scripture, one being the end of the Old Covenant which was fulfilled in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and the other being the eschaton. The le failed apocalyptic cult meme is about what you would expect from people who can't into hermeneutics (bible scholars).

Most of Revelations already happened. The second coming of Jesus has not, neither has His judgement of the righteous and the wicked. But it could come any day. Don't wait until more "End times signs" come to past. Jesus will come like a thief in the night. Be ready for Him now!

2 Peter 3

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

>>586371

>most of revelations already happened

I don't see 1/3 of the ocean's water turning to blood, I don't see 1/3 of the trees and grass burnt to the ground.

>>586409

What really makes this significant is that it's Peter who's saying it. If even the leader of Jesus' disciples is entertaining the notion of a thousand years concerning the end of the world, it proves that verses like Matthew 24:34 weren't meant to be taken literally.

>>586215

Christ said that even He doesn't know the hour, only God the Father knows it. And st. Paul knew that, it's just that every generation thinks their generation is the last one. Go through history, you'll find loads of people expecting apocalypse.

>>586231

Eschatology is a bit confusing since the ancient Jews did not follow a strict chronological outline. Here's a rough, yet still useful principle: if the Bible mentions "the day of the Lord", then It probably means a significant end for Israel, usually the end of the Old Covenant, the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, or even the Exile. If it refers to a coming of the Lord with mentions of the dead, then the Bible means the Second Coming and General Resurrection.

1 Thess. 4:15-17 refers to the later.

Embedded is RC Sproul's (Rest in God's Eternal Peace) intro lecture.

Here is a debate on the date on Revelation, which is relevant to this discussion, featuring the Bible Answer Man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJj8D9hnkIE

Finally, a lecture on this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0vne20e6SI

>>586552

And yet when telling the disciples about His "coming" in the verse right before…

"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mat. 24:34)

>>586215

how do you rationalise the fact that anime is homosexual?

>>586655

>The thesis that is defended by scholars

(((scholars)))

I know people here do that every time scholars are mentioned, but it's for a good reason. Biblical scholars, especially New Testament scholars, will grasp at the most ridiculous straws they can to discredit the Bible. Seriously, if you ever read up on the reasoning these people use to arrive at their conclusions you'll see how dishonest most of them really are.

>2 Peter was written much later than the first epistles of Paul though

Only by about 15 years, which isn't really that long.

>>586655

> Why would he finish explaining that "the people alive at some point in the future won't be dead"

That’s not what he’s saying though or what I’m saying. He’s simply saying that the dead will rise and be in heaven before the living. He isn’t making any predictions or prophecies as to WHO will be alive when Christ returns.

> Besides he mentions the people left over before even mentioning the resurrection of the dead, which suggests he's talking about the very community he was addressing as the living remnant

I just don’t see any evidence in this verse that by “we” Paul means that anyone in those he is addressing MUST be alive at the time of Christ’s second coming. He is talking rather about the Church, which may or may not include those living at the time. Paul’s point is that there was no special privilege to be alive when Christ returns, because the dead would be risen first.

>>586655

>This sentence makes no sense with your explanation. Why would he finish explaining that "the people alive at some point in the future won't be dead"? It's a tautology.

No it's not if you include with "we" every saved person. In that case "we who are alive" is the subset of "we" which is not counting those asleep in Christ. Yet we are still one group.

>that early Christians believed they would be the ones living the end of the world, not merely considering it a possibility.

But that's not what the scripture necessarily says. What matters is what God meant.

>The difference is that the early Christians believed that as a part of the religion.

It's nowhere in scripture for one thing.

>>586215

But teh apostles never claimed infalibility, in fact they were wrong many times, corrected each other, and even betrayed Jesus at times, so their speculations about the end times doesn't really matter.

Jesus said no one knows the time or hour, but we should always be vigilant, as if it were happening soon….

>They thought the world would come to an end soon, but that (of course) didn't happen.

No, they hoped it would. Besides, they were already aware that it wouldn't be as "soon" as they initially understood. St Peter even mentions that a thousand years are like a watch in the night to the Lord. What they were doing, however, was following His commandment to "Watch", expecting Him at any moment.

>This is pretty much accepted by the vast majority of bible scholars (including more conservative ones)

Like whom? Again, the Church doesn't believe they were "wrong". See above. They eagerly anticipated it. It's why "Maranatha" was a greeting amongst Christians for centuries.

>Isn't it weird that Christians so close to Jesus got something so wrong?

What, you mean stuff like

>thinking Jesus will literally destroy and rebuild the Second Temple in three days Himself

>thinking people should eat and drink him as He was

>thinking He was talking about bread when He told them to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees"

>thinking He had His own food supply when He told them "I have food to eat which you know not"

>rebuked Peter for thinking that he could save Him from His fate

>not understanding who their friend was since he could calm storms at will

>asking Him when he was going to overthrow the Romans and establish the new kingdom of Israel (and this was even after He resurrected)

Basically, there is a lot that was passed on to them that was not understood initially, and they didn't really grasp until Pentecost.

>>586221

>But people don't need to know it even now, do they? Most Christians aren't super worried about the eschaton.

Because "most Christians" aren't the least bit interested in their faith as anything other than a habit, or a cultural phenomenon, which is a serious problem.

I personally think that the prophecy was actually kind of fulfilled with the vision of John in the Book of Revelation. Jesus said this generation will not pass without seeing such things come to pass, and so John did see them.

>>588173

>But teh apostles never claimed infalibility, in fact they were wrong many times, corrected each other, and even betrayed Jesus at times, so their speculations about the end times doesn't really matter.

>Jesus said no one knows the time or hour, but we should always be vigilant, as if it were happening soon….

Have you even read the Bible? 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says all scripture is infallible. Furthermore to contradict your claim that about scripture, Peter calls Paul's writing Scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. So your argument is completely devastated.

>>586231

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Paul alive when he wrote this?

>>586655

Have a earlier mention that time must pass before it comes, form the Gospel of Matthew.

Matthew 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet.