09c81c No.582462
>What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church…a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.
Are there actually certain circumstances where lying to others is permitted, or was this a major theogical goof on Luther's part?
6499f3 No.582474
I'm pretty sure all lies are sinful, even ones that would protect people
05b60c No.582477
>>582462
No.
Proverbs 12:22
0f3e95 No.582478
1 Corinthians 10:13
>There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
I take this to mean that we will never be put in a situation where committing a sin like lying or pulling a train track lever when someone is on the tracks will be for the greater good. With that in mind, that would mean there is never a valid or acceptable reason to do those things.
a3b3c0 No.582488
4e9476 No.582490
>>582462
It's always a sin.
99a8e6 No.582703
Evil never excuses evil. There are no circumstances where lying is permitted. Not one.
6cf49a No.582732
>>582703
If a terrorist would come to your home asking "Are you christian? If you are I will rape your wife, torture your children and burn you alive" and supposing you can't defend yourself neither your children want to end up as martyrs, it would actually be a very good thing to do to lie to the terrorist and just saying "No I am a not"
02b8b3 No.582734
>>582732
No, it would not. Death is not the end.
6cf49a No.582738
>>582734
But you are supposed to defend the lives of others at all costs, your children may not want to die as you want
02b8b3 No.582747
>>582738
I still think you gotta do it … Anyone else disagree?
02b8b3 No.582748
aa2e26 No.582750
>>582738
We're not supposed to defend lives at all cost.
6cf49a No.582751
>>582750
Yes you are, especially the lives of the weak/the innocent/the powerless
99a8e6 No.582753
>>582732
Maybe in Muslim theology, but not in Christianity. The right thing to do would be to do what is called 'turning the other cheek'. This means that you should drop any weapons and try to talk the terrorist out of it. The goal is to make the terrorist think 'I can't just kill this defenceless person I'm not that evil'. It turns out that everyone has the capacity for good in them. If you succeed, you will have not only saved yourself and your family, but you will have saved the terrorist. If he actually kills you, no big deal, you claim your reward in heaven.
>>582751
Yes, but not at all cost.
a3ed80 No.582754
>>582753
are you a troll? turning the other cheek absolutely does not mean to not put up a fight.
99a8e6 No.582756
>>582754
Have you read the Bible by chance?
99a8e6 No.582759
>>582756
Specifically Matthew 5:38-42?
6cf49a No.582761
>>582753
It's not if he kills you but he kills other people because of you
By not lying to the terrorist you are allowing a mass murder to happen, so for not undertaking a lesser evil you are paving the road to a bigger evil
6cf49a No.582764
aa2e26 No.582766
>>582751
Based on what? Something other than personal dogma please.
99a8e6 No.582768
>>582761
Failing to prevent evil is not evil, it is simply failure. If I don't swim to Syria and take down ISIS myself, even though it is possible if I do the one perfect sequence of actions, that is not evil on my part, just failure to prevent evil.
Doing evil, however, is evil. It's kinda in the name.
aa2e26 No.582770
>>582761
Hypothetically you could stop all suffering and evil on this earth by wiping out the entire human race, but that doesn't justify it.
c199fa No.582772
>>582732
Correct answer would be to refuse to answer and do this >>582753. Turn the other cheek mean to fight smartly, not abandon and lie down. But I do sympathise with you in your example. Some people in that heat of the moment are just… reduced down to worse than animals and will kill, pillage, destroy everything nonetheless of your religion, belief, or any affiliation. Just like the devil itself. Might want to pray in your mind really hard for Him to intercede. What is impossible for man to do so, is possible with God.
99a8e6 No.582784
>>582772
Exactly, the goal is to bring the human out from behind the animal.
384ab0 No.582798
>>582462
>if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church…a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie
such things do not exist, and by definition cannot exist, or Luther would have been able to think one up as an example, right?
dcacc9 No.582819
>>582462
>What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church…a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them
Not something Luther ever said but, whatever, the internet makes up quotes faster than anyone can possibly prove them false. Post source of quote with page and paragraph with pdf of full original manuscript if you want me to believe it.
dcacc9 No.582820
>>582772
Holy crap, it was almost two years ago when I wrote this? Thanks, I lost the pic another anon made of my post a year ago in a hard drive crash.
553a7c No.582825
>>582819
Apparently it's from this book, but good luck finding the quote:
https://archive.org/details/briefwechsellan01lenzgoog
dcacc9 No.582827
>>582825
Post the original German quote then, page and paragraph. Otherwise it falls under the fact that it takes ten times longer to debunk this stuff than make it up. Until then, I just believe the quote is false.
783d92 No.582839
>>582462
A lie like Protestantism?
So Luther is saying let us do evil that good may come of it?
Really magnums my mysterium
783d92 No.582841
>>582732
Then he murders you anyway and you go to hell for the apostasy.
Do you know about the early christians? Do you not have faith in Christ?
1e87a2 No.582851
>>582753
Doesn't the bible say you can defend yourself and your loved ones? Should I just let him kill me, my family, my loved ones? When the Civil War was raging in my country, my father and uncles, and all Christian men in the country fought against the Muslims to defend the country. If they just dropped their weapons and tried to talk the Muslims out of it, I wouldn't even be here today.
99a8e6 No.582854
>>582851
Where does it say that?
You're kinda right, fighting back in some circumstances is the smart option. However, we are not called to do the smart option, but the right option.
1e87a2 No.582856
>>582854
If these men did the right option, I, along with them, wouldn't even be here today. They tried talking it out with them first, but that didn't work. It worked out in the end, but after what? The scars are still very present.
99a8e6 No.582857
ce3337 No.582878
f251dd No.583345
It would be sinful, but in certain circumstances it may be the lesser sin.
7c82bc No.583355
>>582462
supposedly that is the jesuitic approach (supposedly). I don't think that the Church needed in any way such questionable methods.
5300ca No.583520
>>582732
I'm curious how you square your Literally Taqiyya theology with verses such as Matthew 10:33