/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>580163

Anything that undermines the sacrifice of Christ is equally dangerous.

>>580163

isn't the gift of eternal life though?

How can it be a gift if God takes it away? A just God would not take back a gift.

>>580163

That’s a good comic

>>580165

A just person wouldn't throw that gift back to God.

>>580174

Good thing God doesn't care how just we are

Is this what hell is like? Endless reeeing over the same topic again and again? /christian/ is really disappointing me.

>>580181

>Is this what hell is like?

No, worse, this is what imageboards are like

>>580163

Hebrews 12:5-11, and Romans 6:16. A sin unto death is committing an act worthy of death. God scourges every son he receives, and for some this even requires being met with physical death. What a man sows he will reap, God is not mocked. Hebrews 10:30-31 therefore is exceedingly true. And it says there the Lord shall judge his people, not disown them.

And again, Hebrews 12:8

>But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

These people are instead judged by the Law and sent to hell.

Hebrews 12:9

>Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

>>580175

I don't really agree with the James quote (second image). It sounds more like brotherly/fatherly advice than an instruction. I think faith and intention really do determine everything in the eyes of God. It's for everyone else's eyes that the works are needed though (be careful to avoid vanity).

Any political instrumentalization of the actual political scenario.

Wait how does Hebrews 10:26-27 prove that salvation can be lost? “Received the knowledge of the truth” does not necessarily mean salvation.

>>580293

If you read James 2:14-18, you will see the context of this passage. It has to do with justifying your faith in the eyes of man, for their own benefit (notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?). If you only say "be fed" but give no food then they will not profit from that, verse 16. Likewise if you only say you have faith without doing works, they will not know you have faith, verse 18. This is justification in man's eyes, it is important for their sakes as it profits others. See 1 Corinthians 4:1-4 and 2 Corinthians 4:3.

Of course, if you're a catholic who is only looking for things that benefit yourself, and don't really care about profitting anyone else, James 2:14-26 isn't talking to you and it not gonna make much sense, especially in light of Romans 4:2-5.

>For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

>For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

>Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

>But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>>580313

>“Received the knowledge of the truth” does not necessarily mean salvation.

You're right, but in verse 26 it says "if we sin wilfully" meaning the writer is including himself, and also in verse 30 it says "the Lord shall judge his people." So yes, the Lord could punish the sins of a saved person with physical death since every saved person is truly in subjection to Him, so sins aren't just overlooked or anything like that. Which is what catholics always say by the way. If you're saved, you might have to go through some pretty bad suffering and scourging if you sin wilfully. But Hebrews 12:5-11 says it's for your benefit since you're not going to hell, God chose you to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Verse 8 mentions that those who do not receive scourging for these sins, are bastards and not sons. There is no correction needed for them because of where they're going already.

Yes, Gnostics. And prosperity gospel. And maybe Andersonism.

Oh and "the end of the world is next week therefore give me all your money and follow only me"

That's how you get Mormons and JWs

>>580488

You get Mormons when a snake oil salesman starts a religion. You get JWs when Adventists do a (((Bible study group))).

It could give you a false sense of security, leaving your faith stagnant. Like the parable of the grain that becomes a tree. But I dont think is the most dangerous.

>>580176

>God is a pathological liar and his promises are of none effect so we have to make sure we die while we are on his good side or else he might turn his back on us for no reason but even if we try we still can't know whether he will break his promise to us t. cathoprot

>>580175

pretty good

>>580503

I honestly don't know dreadfully much about the masons, other than some brief research here and there. They seem very bad.

>>580516

They're a standard boogeyman like Jesuits, Communists, Jews or whatever. 90% of Masonic lodges consist of guys drinking beer and playing cards. They're not "le ebil monsters". They're just guys who belong to a men's club so they can get away from their wives once a week or so.

I recognize these characters but I can't place where they're originally from. Anyone know?

>>580185

Here is a kernel of objective truth.

>>580560

Where's the contradiction?

>>580560

>insisting that the scripture contradicts itself

Wrong.

>>580540

You know, i talked online with a freemason and he told me that the argument that Crowley was a mason is false because somehow he registered in a wrong section or something like that and therefore not full mason. Also morals and dogmas is a magazine and not a book and members were not obliged to read it. I trust you may have sources to debunk this false claims. Do you?

>>580540

>>580177

Yeah but you're still throwing that gift away though.

>>580175

>james 2

https://youtu.be/dPqSelVJvoA

>philipians

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

>a cracker is literally Jesus

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

>>580565

It would contradict all of these verses

John

1:12

3:15-16/18/36

4:14(John 6:35)

5:24

6:28-29/35/38-40/44-45/47

7:38-39

8:24

10:27-29

11:25-27/40

12:46

14:1-3

16:27

20:31

Matthew

5:19

7:21-23(John 6:38-40)

8:10-13

12:37

21:31-32

Mark

1:15

2:5

10:24-25

16:16

Luke

3:3(Acts 19:4)

5:20

7:50

8:12

18:10-14/40-42

23:40-43

Acts

2:21

10:43

11:16-17

13:38-39/48

15:7-9

16:30-31

19:4(Luke 3:3)

26:18

Romans

1:16-17

3:20/22/24-28/30

4:2-9/11/14-16/24

5:1/15-18

6:23

8:24

9:30-33

10:3-4/9-10/13

11:6

1 Corinthians

1:14/17

3:14-15

15:1-2

2 Corinthians

4:13-14

1 Thessalonians

4:14

2 Thessalonians

1:10

2:12

Ephesians

1:13-14

2:8-9

4:7

Galatians

2:16/21

3:6-11/14/21-22/24/26

5:3-6

Philippians

3:3/9

Titus

3:5

1 Timothy

1:16

2 Timothy

1:9

3:15

Hebrews

4:3

10:38-39

11:7

1 Peter

1:3-5/8-9

3:21(Colossians 2:12)

1 John

4:2-3/15

5:1/4-5/10-11/13

Revelation

2:11/26

3:5/20-21

21:7/27

>>581606

CTRL+C

Thanks bro

I love how baptists just throw out all the church fathers that affirm everything they hate, even the apostolic fathers themselves

jk, i don't hate it, it's disgusting

>>581623

no love* that is

>Is there a more dangerous heresy?

Work salvation

>>581670

What constitutes "work based" salvation?

>>581672

If you believe you have to do works to get saved.

>>581673

I never got this, Christians (supposedly) encourage everyone to keep Christ's guidelines and practices, but you can't believe that it's part of salvation? What's the point? Does anybody truly believe that they're owed something for their "good works" or that they're winning salvation back from God?

>>580536

blacksad

>>581677

No, and the cathecism actually says

>Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. 56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits" 57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

>The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

>The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. 61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due…. Our merits are God's gifts

For certain propaganda-fueled groups, "saved by grace, justified by faith and works" is TOO COMPLEX, so they must reduce it to "saved by faith" (with the definition of faith changed every 2 minutes as damage control) and "saved by works", which constantly shapeshitfts between "works only" or "including works" as you can see in >>581670 >>581673 depending on what is more useful as propaganda.

>>580165

Wrong way around. Nobody is taking anything. It's the sinner who throws the gift away.

bump

>>581677

You're still rewarded for doing works, but that doesn't mean they save you.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

>>586800

This. It's a pretty warped mindset that says that our adopted Father would cast us out and that we need to reseal the deal every time we stumble.

The more I read into the debate, the more I realize that this is the single issue from where all disagreement between roman catholicism and baptists stems. Jesus' sacrifice did a whole lot more than just wipe our past sins from the record.

>>586826

>which was to prove his faith to God

Prove his faith to the world*. God already knew Abraham's faith was legitimate.

>>586826

So you're saying God can't knkw your faith without you doing works? Also that would contradict Romans 4

>2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>>586826

God tests us as sons, not to "prove" our sonship, but to "improve" it.

Why the hell do people take a "I'm already right" tone when talking? Here, watch.

>>586829

>Prove his faith to the world*. God already knew Abraham's faith was legitimate.

Prove his faith to God*. That is why God tested him.

>>586830

>So you're saying God can't knkw your faith without you doing works?

So you're saying God was wasting time by testing his works when nobody was watching, since his faith wasn't justified?

See? Legitimately nothing has progressed form my snarky remark, just as nothing has progressed form your snarky remarks. At least >>586830 has a biblical citation, I suppose.

Now onto the actual arguments.

>>586830

>So you're saying God can't knkw your faith without you doing works?

If my theology was like yours, I might as well ask why we're on Earth and why we can't just skip to the part where go to Heaven. After all, God already knows our hearts, so why have a testing time in Earth?

What I am saying here is that even if he already knows what is going to happen, there's a process going on. There is no use to give us a chance to do Good Works if we just skip them because "He already knows what is on our hearts".

>Romans 4

Salvation is not of works, true.

Also true that you should do works to aid your spiritual state, and not just "to prove your faith to men" as Protties state.

>>586834

>If my theology was like yours, I might as well ask why we're on Earth and why we can't just skip to the part where go to Heaven. After all, God already knows our hearts, so why have a testing time in Earth?

Because we're not on this earth to be tested, but to fulfill God's will. Once we're adopted as God's sons (believers), we're called unto works (Ephesians 2).,

Philippians 1

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

>>586834

>Prove his faith to God*

James disagrees

>I might as well ask why we're on Earth and why we can't just skip to the part where go to Heaven. After all, God already knows our hearts, so why have a testing time in Earth?

What happens in time has a purpose, it is to the praise of God's glorious grace. The bible says we can't earn our way into heaven

>Salvation is not of works, true.

Well then, Earth isn't a testing ground to see if people will do good or evil, since that would mean we go to heaven because we deserve it.

>Also true that you should do works to aid your spiritual state

You should do good works because you love God, and you are grateful to be saved. Stop being so self-centered.

>>581740

This is what I thought most Christians believed in the first place, all of the good Christians I know live like they believe this.

>>586800

>You're still rewarded for doing works, but that doesn't mean they save you.

Then why does everyone argue about this issue? Neither side is believing that works = salvation and most Christians actively encourage a certain lifestyle centered around Christ's example. No matter what, good works are going to be a part of that.

>>580177

Yes he does m8. It is not to the level of vainglory, but the scriptures clearly state that sinners (1 Corinthians 6: 9-10) will not enter heaven. Seems like a lot of what you guys are saying are preconceived notions of the ways God judges, which to me sound a lot like liberal parenting. Basically prots are a movement which are running around saying God's a proggressive parent. Proof protestantism was the of the fall of Christendom and western civilization. Compare these doctrines to proggressive parenting techniques and hippy ideology in general.

>>580501

O my autism.

>>586850

>Neither side is believing that works = salvation

Cathlodox believe you have to do works to get saved

salvation is tied to faith, no faith = no salvation

the idea of OSAS does away with this tight relationship, as if life long faith (real lasting long term faith) can be replaced by a temporary moment of faith, a eureka experience that might only last a day or month, as if that's all you need….

terrible heresy

>>586865

>Yes he does m8

<But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>>586869

I don't see how you could take it that way. It seems obvious to me that faith demands discipline, but what they're saying is that it's not either one or the other. How would you prove anyone believes this anyway? You're not able to know if every good work someone does is virtue signalling or if it's because they want to be good Christians. Isn't that God's job? Maybe you could pick out a few bad apples but we're talking about folks actually trying to do right here.

>>586870

Most believe that once your saved you don't conpletely stop believing

>catholics don't understand repentance is works

>>586886

>hehe ""you never really had faith ;)""

that's a cop out, baseless…also it contradicts the essence of OSAS, if salvation simply depends on a moment of true faith then it would be logical for someone to remain saved even if they later renounced Christianity and converted to another religion, or had alzheimers and lost their memories and beliefs…

>>586918

I don't believe you ever will stop believing but if you can then yes you're still saved

>>581606

HIGHLY underrated post

1 Peter 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:29-30

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:11-14

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1 John 5:13

'These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.''

Romans 4:6-8

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

>>586988

Beautiful. The first sermon I can remember as a wee lad was on these verses. "Know that you know that you know"

It grieves me to think there are people on this board who can't sing Blessed Assurance