/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>579732

I have an issue with this topic. If God gave us free will, but he is omniscient, meaning he knows what we're going to do before we even do it, do we even have free will in that case?

the world is deterministic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

God knows who will be saved? and cursed for eternity?

>>579732

Please define free will before you say it doesn't exist.

>>579740

If i give you a choice: do you want an apple or a chocolate cake and I know that you love chocolate I can say "yeah, I'm sure he will pick the cake". That doesn't change the fact that you still can pick whichever you want.

>>579765

I'm sorry but free will is more than a choice of food.

for example the choice of the wife / husband.

>>579781

It was predetermined?

Probably for theology, free will is needed to solve the problem "God's admission of evil"

Objectively, within universal causality, free will does not exist.

Subjectively, within our individual realm of experience and psychology, free will does exist.

>>579769

But what does that change? My point is, it doesn't matter to you that God already knows. You don't, you make your choice.

I think that you are forgetting that God is outside time-space that annuls any kind of similar statement. There is no future for God, there is no past for God, there is no time for God AT ALL. He is beyond that.

>no one's posted "On Grace and Free Will" yet

And I thought Augustine was supposed to be this board's patron saint.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

>>579732

Then why did you post this?

>>579830

Causality is an explanation, not an excuse.

Law and punishment are still necessary to maintain order and the psychological motivators contained therein, creating the/a cause for order and morality.

>>579732

To paraphrase John Milton, God has no use for love that is not given freely. God made us just and right, those who stand stand freely, those who fall fall freely.

i'm team free-will (most days), but the arguments i'm reading in favor of it in this thread are just terrible.

>>579781

>If free will doesn't exist, then our existence on this Earth serves no purpose

what's the basis for this assertion? how do you know there could be no other purpose for our existence?

>>579830

>one of the problems of a Predestined or Deterministic worldview is that is would tear society apart.

even assuming you're right, whether or not it's beneficial for society to believe an idea has no bearing on whether or not it's true.

>If everyone is bound inexorably to do such and such, then punishment and reward are meaningless.

what's the basis for this assertion?

punishment and reward could still be used to help society function, that would be it's meaning.

the parts of the machine that are causing it to malfunction are taken out, the parts of the machine that are performing well are kept.

>because it is based on something which cannot be proved

>you have a justice system that is illogical

gotcha, so something being unprovable means it is illogical

>because we believe in it based on truths which do not require physical proof

>free will is logical

what the heck?

>>579732

It doesn't really make sense for God to hold us accountable if we don't have some kind of supernatural moral agency. Nor can God be considered righteous since he's responsible for his creation's evil.

>>579822

He was predetermined to.