/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

My question to you is who or what can unbreak what is sealed by God?

>>575597

Only God can, yeah?

I have no scripture to back that up except perhaps John 10:28-29.

>>575592

OSAS is torture.

>get saved

>go shoot up a school, kill a bunch of kids

>go to Heaven because OSAS

>parents of those kids saved also

>parents go to Heaven

>have to spend eternity with the asshat that killed their kid

>>575602

Thats what happened with Paul and the Christians he murdered as Saul, is it not?

Repentance is what matters.

>professing to believe in the Lord with all your heart, all your mind, all your spirit, and all your strength

>then shooting up a school, committing suicide, raping puppies in the butt, etc.

I don't think you folks here understand the concept very well.

>>575605

inb4 "HURR DURR BUT A TRULY SAVED PERSON WOULDN'T DO THAT HURR"

>>575609

>he thinks the Lord doesn't know man's heart

This heretical board needs to be deleted.

>>575607

How is "you’re saved if you have real faith, and people with real faith don’t commit such sins" functionally different from "you must repent of mortal sins to be saved" apart from making people think that God might not actually love you or forgive your sins for the former?

>>575612

>What if I, a Christian now, who genuinely believes in Christ, become an atheist 20 years down the road?

your life will be pure and utter shit until you repent and turn back to Him or die.

>We can strike A off the list immediately because of John 14:6

nah, if this hypothetical person comes unto the Father, the hypothetical person would still be coming unto the Father by Him, rather than some other way. no contradiction.

>>575619

do most atheists live shitty lives despite the Rickerian propaganda?

>>575619

>your life will be pure and utter shit until you repent and turn back to Him or die.

Gee I thought perseverance of the saints was a real doctrine, thanks for showing me the light

Okay but what does any of this have to do with Ephesians 1:13-14?

>>575621

i don't know what a rickerianian is, but let me clarify:

i'm not saying if you don't believe in God, you're guaranteed to have a shitty life in this world, that's obviously untrue.

or that if you believe in God, your life on earth is going to be nothing but joy and comfort, that's obviously untrue.

however, if you've placed your faith in Christ, and then turn your back to Him, God will chastise you:

>"For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.” (Hebrews 12:6)

>All those I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent! (Revelation 3:19)

>My child, do not despise discipline from the Lord, and do not loathe his rebuke. For the Lord disciplines those he loves, just as a father disciplines the son in whom he delights. (Proverbs 3:11-12)

>>575626

no problem

>>575629

i meant rick and morty memes

so, you say ALL former christians experience salutory problems?

that makes sense.

>>575634

Meant to quote >>575612 as well.

>>575634

>even if the kids and parents go to Hell and the shooter to heaven

this makes me very uneasy

>>575640

It should. Nothing will keep you from hell but God's grace alone, so trust in Him.

>>575642

im a heinous pervert so I certainly cant trust on my own merits.

i always skrew up ;_;

do whore.mongers have hope even if they try but fail to drop their habit?

or does Grace change me so I can do it?

>>575643

>do whore.mongers have hope even if they try but fail to drop their habit?

Absolutely

>or does Grace change me so I can do it?

It can and will, though how complete and consistent your sanctification will go while you are alive on Earth will vary, but never to a point where God removes His grace and love.

>>575644

i honestly try,but it doesnt go away.

im very lustful but strangely enough i can perform good deeds, im not crippled from morality.

>tfw my own parents forbid me from fasting and penance

im afraid theyll be very sad if I leave home to do penances tho

>>575619

>>575634

I think you may be misunderstanding the point of my example. My point is not to say that a person who in the OSAS system can theoretically do bad things and fall away.

My point is to say that one cannot hold these two positions at once:

(a) A justified believer can never fall away, and anyone who appears to be saved and falls away was never saved in the first place; and

(b) A person can have infallible knowledge that he is saved.

Just follow along with me and maybe you'll understand.

>The question is irrelevant because it is impossible to have genuine faith that can collapse by the whims of man. It's the very same kind of question as "can God make a rock too heavy to left?"

So if I were to claim that I'm saved, and then my faith were to "collapse by the whims of man" you would have no other option but to say that I was not saved in the first place.

In this case, however, because I cannot know my own future, I cannot know whether or not my faith will "collapse".

>If our salvation depended on us at any point of time, we'd always fail and go to Hell. Our salvation depends on God alone.

I'm not talking about a temporal dependence. I'm talking about a truly ontological dependence outside of time. What I mean is that if, according to your model, my faith were to collapse, you would say that I was never saved in the first place. Therefore, knowledge about whether or not my faith will collapse is intrinsically linked to knowledge of whether or not I will commit terrible sins in the future. But because I do not have the knowledge of the latter, I cannot have knowledge of the former.

>Except that knowledge that the infallible, all-knowing God gives to those who love Him.

Here's the problem. The passages say that I can know that I'm saved if I believe in Jesus. But I cannot know if that belief is true because I do not know every act I will commit in the future. See my point?

>>575645

>i honestly try,but it doesnt go away.

Never forget that even as a Christian Paul still struggled daily with a severe sin:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 7:14-8:1)

>tfw my own parents forbid me from fasting and penance

>im afraid theyll be very sad if I leave home to do penances tho

God would rather you obey your parents for the time being, then to fast and give penance, both of which are merely nice symbols of faith but nothing substantial like obedience.

Have you tried talking to them about your problems?

>>575652

I tried, they just scold me for burning my fingertips to prevent fapping(which didnt even work)

i should get married but, alas! I can't its not the rotten society,im socially handicapped and not very well off

anyways,ill do what I can

>>575649

>My point is to say that one cannot hold these two positions at once:

Yes they can.

>In this case, however, because I cannot know my own future, I cannot know whether or not my faith will "collapse".

If you believe what God said, you can know and have assurance based on what God said. Otherwise you're right you won't have assurance, if you don't believe the word of God. Also recall 1 Corinthians 4:1-4, man's judgement of man is a very small thing, what really matters is what God sees and whether or not you really have faith in his Word. Since this is the gift of God, he doesn't make mistakes.

Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

>>575592

If you read Ephesians 1:10-14 you will get a fuller context of what this seal means. This seal is part of the "inheritance" we have obtained, being predestinated to it by God (v. 11). The same seal is mentioned two other times:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

This latter passage has further parallels:

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:5-6

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27

This latter verse lines up with the fact that the Holy Spirit is the divine person sent after Jesus departed to indwell the individual and to give the individual all truth and understanding (note 2 Peter 1:20-21). See for instance John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13, 1 John 2:27, 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, Acts 5:32, Luke 11:9-13, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 Thessalonians 1:5.

>>575649

>I think you may be misunderstanding the point of my example.

You are underestimating what I understand.

>one cannot hold these two positions at once:

> (a) A justified believer can never fall away, and anyone who appears to be saved and falls away was never saved in the first place

>(b) A [justified] person can have infallible knowledge that he is saved.

Don't see a contradiction.

>If I were to claim that I'm saved,

I don't care about someone's claim, we're talking purely about some who is actually saved versus someone who is actually not. Again, you are trying to force me to answer the same kind of question as "can God make something more powerful than Himself" or "who created the Creator". Not gonna do it.

>whether or not I will commit terrible sins in the future.

Your salvation doesn't depend on perfect obedience. It depends on your faith in Christ as you Lord and Savior.

>I'm talking about a truly ontological dependence outside of time.

So am I. God doesn't wait for anyone to act when He wishes to act, which includes showing mercy and saving souls.

>But because I do not have the knowledge of the latter

It's so simple. You yourself don't need to possess that knowledge from your own capacity to know and to learn. You possess knowledge of salvation from trusting in God.

>But I cannot know if that belief is true because I do not know every act I will commit in the future.

It's clear you don't believe Jesus' promises about the future and it's clear your faith is in your own knowledge and abilities, not God's. You are not saved. See, quite simple.

>>>575654

I'm sorry to here that. I'll pray for you anon. Is there someone at your church who can act as a parent figure, someone who can give you counsel and keep you accountable without condemnation?

>>575654

Meant to quote>>575654

>>575665

my priest is doing a rather good job.

he told me to stop burning my hand and i obeyed him.

>>575672

thanks !

>>575665

>I don't care about someone's claim, we're talking purely about some who is actually saved versus someone who is actually not. Again, you are trying to force me to answer the same kind of question as "can God make something more powerful than Himself" or "who created the Creator". Not gonna do it.

No, that's absolutely not what I'm saying!

There are two people: person A and person B. Person A and B both tell you that they are "saved". If Person B commits apostasy after he "converts" to Christianity, then you would say that he was a false believer from the beginning and never had a saving faith. Person A doesn't do that, so you would say that he was saved and his faith got him to heaven. But consider this: you only knew that Person B was not saved because he showed his true colors and committed apostasy. So the only way that you know that he was unsaved was by his actions. I'm not saying his actions made him unsaved, but under your model his actions showed that he was unsaved from the start.

Now then, consider that from Person B's perspective, he DOES NOT KNOW that he's going to commit apostasy in the future because NO ONE CAN HAVE INFALLIBLE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS OWN FUTURE ACTIONS. So how can he know whether or not he is saved AT THAT MOMENT?

>>575602

You've got it.

>>575604

>>575633

>>575634

You're all three missing the point. OSAS is wrong because it implies that only one act of repentance is necessary, and that future acts require no further repentance, and may even be excessively evil acts, but would not jeopardize salvation.

Who cares if the rapist or murderer repented ONCE and was saved, if that person then reverts and commits other heinous acts which they do not repent from subsequently? Because OSAS implies that the first repentance absolves even FUTURE acts.

Funny, OSAS is a prottie heresy, but protties apparently never read that Scriptura which is Sola. Because Paul himself very clearly states, in writing, his own worries about his status with respect to Salvation. See v12, other verses provided for context.

>8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Another translation:

>8 Yes truly, and I am ready to give up all things for the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, which is more than all: for whom I have undergone the loss of all things, and to me they are less than nothing, so that I may have Christ as my reward, 9 And be seen in him, not having my righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may have knowledge of him, and of the power of his coming back from the dead, and a part with him in his pains, becoming like him in his death; 11 If in any way I may have the reward of life from the dead. 12 Not as if I had even now got the reward or been made complete: but I go on in the hope that I may come to the knowledge of that for which I was made the servant of Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers, it is clear to me that I have not come to that knowledge; but one thing I do, letting go those things which are past, and stretching out to the things which are before, 14 I go forward to the mark, even the reward of the high purpose of God in Christ Jesus.

It's pretty clear that Paul was worried about his eventual Salvation, despite having repented of murder etc. and having been Baptized and Sealed through Chrismation and being one of the Apostles who WROTE the Bible.

How much more, then, should we be worried?

And how much should we reject with both hands the dangerous heresy of OSAS?

>>575723

In that passage he's saying he hasn't yet resurrected. Begone with this satanic post. Read verse 16.

>Who cares if the rapist or murderer repented ONCE and was saved, if that person then reverts and commits other heinous acts which they do not repent from subsequently?

Turning from your sins is a work. It's good but it doesn't equate to being saved or receiving faith.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

>>575723

>Because OSAS implies that the first repentance absolves even FUTURE acts.

You clearly don't understand our position.

>Funny, OSAS is a prottie heresy, but protties

>protties

You clearly don't want to understand our position, so why should I show you an ounce of respect and give you a proper response?

>>575592

Baptism is the seal, just like circumcision used to be. It can be broken by sin of course.

And the sentence itself says

>until we acquire the inheritance

Which means the seal doesn't automatically acquire it, it merely promises it to us if we don't break the seal. That's why st. John Chrysostom said about that line:

>Thus here also he makes the things already bestowed a sure token of the promise of those which are yet to come. For this reason he further calls it an earnest, Cf. also 2 Corinthians 1:22 for an earnest is a part of the whole. He has purchased what we are most concerned in, our salvation; and has given us an earnest in the mean while.

>Why then did He not give the whole at once? Because neither have we, on our part, done the whole of our work. We have believed. This is a beginning; and He too on His part has given an earnest. When we show our faith by our works, then He will add the rest.

>>575602

>>575605

My understanding of OSAS is that those who commit sins without honest repentance afterwards weren't truly 'saved' to begin with.

Somebody who is saved and lives out a devout life in the Holy Spirit wouldn't go on to commit such sins.

does this board really not understand this concept or are people just shitposting

>>576044

My friends believe that OSAS means that once you believe that Jesus is Lord and was risen from the dead and you accept him in you heart, nothing you can do will ever prevent you from getting to heaven.

>>576135

Amen. Let our Lord return quickly.

>>576135

That position completely and utterly destroys the concept of sin. I mean, if you're saved, it doesn't matter what you do, you can be a serial killer you'll be saved regardless. That's baloney. Why would Christ explicitly tell us not to do certain things if those things don't endanger our salvation?

I highly doubt God ordered the world in a way where a man can go to church every Sunday and spend the rest of the week being evil to everyone around him.

>>576266

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

1 Corinthians 3:5-9

>>576266

>That position completely and utterly destroys [our life] of sin.

Praise God that it does! Or otherwise we would be wretched without hope.

>Concept of sin

Obviously it does not, or I would not be concerned about evangelizing or encouraging righteousness. Why do you guys keep separating OSAS and sanctification as if the two are incompatible?

>if you're saved, it doesn't matter what you do

You don't understand our position.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized pinto Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life… For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. " (Rom. 6:1-4,10-14)

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10)

>Why would Christ explicitly tell us not to do certain things if those things don't endanger our salvation?

To show those who love Him how to love Him particularly: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

>I highly doubt God ordered the world in a way where a man can go to church every Sunday and spend the rest of the week being evil to everyone around him.

That's easy. You are living in that very world where men go to church not to please God or worship Him nor to congregate and aid fellow believers, but to satisfy their evil passions purposes. You have those who try to show spirituality and good religion for 2 or 3 hours on Sunday then show their true identity the rest of the week. Do you really think everyone who goes to church is saved or is a Christian, don't be naive. See Romans 16:17-19 and Matthew 7:15-16.