/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>556215

I won't post it again since I finished

>>556214

So where do we go from here, now that there's no doubt?

>>556219

It's literally in the catalog.

>>554301

James 2:24: See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Really gets the old noggin jogging

>>556222

Yeah I was not even half done by then so I wanted to make a new thread. If any mod wants to delete the other thread that's fine.

>>556223

Are you unable to read?

>And to the cathlodox please don't bring up verses that have nothing to with these but if you look through them and they don't see them saying it's by faith alone at all then please say so I can remove it, but have an arguement besides "He meant the opposite of what he siad."

also

>>in b4 James 2

https://youtu.be/dPqSelVJvoA

>>556226

OP can't inb4 lurk moar

>>556226

OP can't inb4. That's a rule as old as "tits or gtfo" and rule 34.

>>556223

The use of the plural “you” in this verse in the Greek text shows that James had completed his response to the objector. He was now addressing his readers directly again (cf. vv. 14-17).

Works declare us righteous (Gr. present passive indicative of dikaioo) in the sense that our works testify to onlookers that we have exercised saving faith. They are the external fruit that bears witness to the eternal life within. “You see . . . by [his] works.” However, James previously said that not every believer will bear visible fruit (v. 17; cf. John 15:2). Such a believer’s faith is not productive but “dead.” Nevertheless he has faith. Some unbelievers appear to bear the fruit of saving faith, but God will one day expose their “wheat” as “tares” (Matt. 13:30).

The vindication is only before others and is not in a salvific context.

>>556235

Again watch the video and please focus instead on the verses I posted. If you want to say one of those show it's not faith alone then go ahead.

>>556238

Why do you depend on this preacher's arguments to defend your views? Shouldn't you be able to argue them on your own?

>>556238

>Again watch the video

>Give Anderson shekels, goy

No.

>If you want to say one of those show it's not faith alone then go ahead.

Okay, let's start with the fact that in none of those can you find the words "faith alone"

>>556242

>Jesus: WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

>You: He meant the opposite of what he said.

>>556241

James 2 is justified to man. Try reading the while chapter sometime.

>>556246

>He thinks that to believe is to say a few magic words and you're done, it's not actually living a christian life according to the precepts taught by Jesus

>>556235

>jumps back 10 verses to verse 14

As he did before (vv. 2-4), James provided a concrete situation to illustrate his point (vv. 15-16). He envisioned a situation that may very well have taken place in his church in Jerusalem where there were many poor saints (Rom. 15:25-31; 1 Cor. 16:3). All the people in the illustration seem to be genuine Christians in view of the terms James used to describe them (cf. “brethren” in 1:2; 2:1, 14; 3:1). The situation he described highlights the absurdity of claiming vital faith (i.e., that one is putting his faith into practice) but at the same time not working (i.e., not obeying the Word of God; cf. 1 John 3:17-18). A benediction cannot save a starving man from death; only bread can do that.

James was not saying that a person who responds to another Christian’s need, as in verses 15-16, shows that he has failed to exercise saving faith and is devoid of eternal life. He was saying that faith, if work (i.e., obedience to the Word of God) does not accompany it, is dead (i.e., inactive).

“Dead” does not mean non-existent but inactive, no longer vital, dormant, useless (cf. v. 14). This is a very important point.

>“It has not usually been considered too deeply why James chose the term ‘dead’ to describe a faith that is not working. But the moment we relate this to the controlling theme of ‘saving the life,’ everything becomes plain. The issue that concerns James is an issue of life or death. (He is not discussing salvation from hell!) The truth which he has in mind is that of Proverbs: ‘Righteousness tendeth to life . . . he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.’ [Prov. 11:19; cf. Prov. 10:27; 12:28; 13:14; 19:16] Can a dead faith save the Christian from death? The question answers itself. The choice of the adjective ‘dead’ is perfectly suited to James’ argument.” ( Hodges, The Gospel . . ., p. 27. )

>>556250

Romans 10

13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

>>556250

Also this story

Luke 18

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

>>556252

The Word of God is a double-edged sword anon.

Be careful how you wield it. Some people don't turn the other cheek.

>>556252

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

>>556251

You reminded me of the parable of the Master and his three servants that he gave money to.

>>556260

WOW GREAT JOB you only completely skipped verse 22 AND didn't look up the Father's will

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

>Father's will is do works

John 6

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

>>556263

>saved through faith

>not of yourselves

>gift

>not if works

>what he really meant was do works

>>556264

>again, he thinks believing is saying a few magic words and not living a life of obedience to Christ and his commandments

>>556265

"My new and eternal covenant"

What is a covenant anon?

>>556268

>I somehow how said that because your saved by faith alone means you shouldn't follw the commandments

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

>>556271

The same as testament or law. I never said you shouldn't gollow the commandments.

>>556274

Its a contract anon. The blood of Christ washes away all sins, but its a two way street. And that is the simplest way to explain the Catholic view on being saved through grace that I can make.

>>556275

>Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

>You see what the Pual by the Holy Ghost really meant was he did save us because of our works

>>556273

>>I somehow how said that because your saved by faith alone means you shouldn't follw the commandments

>shouldn't

<he still thinks following the commandments was merely a suggestion

Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

>>556235

>James 2:14

Who is he CLAIMING to have faith to?

>>556263

>none of the verses talks about salvation through faith alone

Romans 4:5 was in there.

>>556278

It's a commandment. Your commanded to do it but younaren't saved by it.

>>556280

So are you trying to say you have to do works to stay saved?

>>556284

It is not even your Faith that saves you. It is He that saves you once you open yourself up to him through Faith. And it is He that produces good works through you. That is Grace.

>>556294

So your saying your saved by faith alone but once your saved you will do works?

>>556297

Why are you even here anon?

From my perspective, all you want to do is prove that your Holier than everyone else here by winning an argument.

Did I not just say that God, the Almighty is the one that saves you, not you?

>>556300

To prove it's faith alone so people stop saying it isn't faith alone

>>556297

He wants everyone to believe that if you don't do the particular things what he's expecting to see, that means you're not saved. That's what this is all leading to, hooking their own expectations onto salvation. And those expectations change so pay close attention. In fact no one is saved until he decides they are worthy to be called a saint, so they need his approval and probably some miracles as well or else they're not justified.

>>556306

Yes you did say he is the one that saves you

>>556308

I have said everything I feel I need to on what being saved means to me.

I don't appreciate you accusing me of doing anything other than that.

>>556311

Here's the bottom line because I'm tired of this discussion.

People bickering about whether its their Works that save them or their Faith that saves them ignore God's hand in it. And that's really all I have to say about it.

>>556214

It is neither faith nor works that saves, rather it is by grace of God alone we are saved. No grace? No salvation for you!

If belief in Jesus is all it takes to be saved, ehy do Andersonites believe gays cannot be saved? Can't thry believe? Speaking of which, where does the repentance of sins fit into faith alone? Why did Jesus constantly warn against evil deeds if faith saves rather than avoiding these deeds?

>>556318

Yeah it you get that grace by faith alone

>>556319

>If belief in Jesus is all it takes to be saved, ehy do Andersonites believe gays cannot be saved? Can't thry believe?

Because they can't believe

>Speaking of which, where does the repentance of sins fit into faith alone? Why did Jesus constantly warn against evil deeds if faith saves rather than avoiding these deeds?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DfpMTAPw1gY

Faith is our response to the salvific institution which is grace. Faith is expressed and only given recognition according to the righteous works of a believer. It may well be that we are not saved by works, but a faith that is not revealed by the works of a believer is no faith at all. A hammer that cannot perform the function of a hammer is a useless hammer and of course will be thrown into the lake of fire. So yeah you're not wrong about faith being the agency of our salvation. But you are wrong when you assume it means you can react loosely to the law of the gospel.

>>556324

Not an argument

>>556328

>when he said "whosoever believeth" what he really meant was whosoever believeth and does works

>>556336

>when he said "whosoever" he meant "only these specific people".

>>556336

I guess placing faith in the word of God is tough for some people. The sad irony isn't lost.

>>556336

No read my post again. Works aren't the condition of salvation. They are the evidence or "residue" of faith which is the response of men towards god graceful offer of salvation. If you believe and love God, You don't willfully sin against him. You are righteous to the extent of your ability via the sanctification of the holy spirit.

>>556341

>You don't willfully sin against him.

Gou should try reasi g Pual's epistles sometime

>>556342

>>556341

Also Peter

57 And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.

58 And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.

59 And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean.

60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.

61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

>>556341

Abraham was faithful and therefore righteous, yet even he acted in accordance with the revealed decrees and requests of God. Circumcision, the requested sacrifice of Isaac, the exodus from Mesopotamia. They were righteous acts founded upon the faith Abraham possesses in his heart. Faith is that which constitutes a saved individual yet works are the manifest substance and proof/verification/confirmation/affirmation of faith.

Christ called people to holiness via their faith in him. Holiness is the atmosphere and flavour of the kingdom of God. The most basic and fundamental attribute of a social unit within the kingdom is faithfulness, but it is by no means the only attribute. It is the rock upon which virtue is built. Virtue is the glue of heaven and the binding substance of glory found in community between man and creator.

>>556341

>Works aren't the condition of salvation.

Alright, then why are you confusing people by telling them that they must reveal their faith by certain works or else they have "no faith at all?" If someone just started believing in truth I guess they don't have faith until they have done sufficient works according to your earlier post. The question now is how much is sufficient, and while we're at it why don't we just go ahead and say works are actually the real requirement then, despite what Scripture says, so we shouldn't really be taking God's word for truth so much as we should be checking to make sure we did enough works to be savedf. Even though in Matthew 7:22 those who did so, he never knew.

>>556343

And Jesus had a much needed moment of reconciliation with Peter post resurrection.

John 21:15 to 17

The denial of Christ and his gospel is no small offense. It is apostasy. You can lose salvation once it has been granted

Article 162 of the Catholic catechism states that one can lose the priceless gift of salvation.

Paul to Timothy in 1 Tim

By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith"

Furthermore: we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope and rooted in the faith of the church

>The denial of Christ and his gospel is no small offense.

Yes

>You can lose salvation once it has been granted

No

You said if you love him you wouldn't do that but it looks like Peter did

>>556353

>You can lose salvation once it has been granted

>No

I agree. God would never lie and send to hell someone who was saved and is with him on Heaven.

>>556349

You're still thinking that I'm saying works are the condition of salvation. I'm not. I'm saying faith first, works second as evidence of faith. A new believer may very well be saved since out of a faithful heart works become manifest. But salvation is the institution of God and his judgement will rest upon those whom he will place judgement. And likewise his mercy in similar fashion. Sure you've got the Matthew 7:22 passage going but not one verse prior it says,

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21

Is the will of God merely that people believe? What then is to be done of the mess of the world? If everyone believes but no action is resulted (ie works) what was the use of the saving work?

God didn't create the world and establish a plan to redeem it only to leave it stagnant in sin. The world will be recreated and redeemed in the final eschatological culmination of salvation. That's why the kingdom is now and not yet. There's work to be done.

>>556358

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

>>556359

>"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21

>Is the will of God merely that people believe

John 6:38-40

>>556359

>Is the will of God merely that people believe?

Not merely, but as far as receiving eternal life is concerned, it is.

>What then is to be done of the mess of the world?

We can't fix it but we can teach them to observe all things whatsoever he has commanded you. Starting with the gospel of salvation and working from there. God will eventually remove away this old world for judgement. See 2 Peter 3:7-9. He is longsuffering and not willing that any should perish.

>If everyone believes but no action is resulted (ie works)

Impossible if you knew what faith was. But faith also means not trusting in works for salvation because that's part of what God said. They are evidence for faith as James 2 says, and we shall know each other by our fruits. But they are not to be confused as justification before God. See 1 Corinthians 4:1-4.

>>556353

>>556358

>>556360

Now we ought to pinpoint the "occasion" of salvation.

In traditional Christianity, one is not saved until the judgement day of all people. Peter was neither saved nor damned upon his denial of Christ. He was no longer in a state of grace. The passage of his redemption in John is the reinstating of his state of grace.

No one alive on earth is saved or damned.

Besides that, why are you so sure of God's thought process in his work of salvation? God wouldn't lie to those he loved, true but he certainly had not explicitly promised salvation to anyone other than the thief on the cross and maybe someone else I'm Drawing a blank on.

>>556369

Exactly. Now we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling since salvation belongs to God.

>>556370

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

>that ye may know that ye have eternal life,

>>556370

>No one alive on earth is saved or damned.

So has no one alive on earth heard His word and believed on Him that sent Him?

Had none of the apostles? Only the thief on the cross?

>>556372

Next chapter:

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

>>556365

Ohh you want to open up that can of worms? Let's talk communion and real presence then. This passage is foundational to the sacrament of mass and communion. Besides that Do you suppose the eating of the flesh and the drinking of his blood is not a work established by Christ himself. It is an institution of righteousness and it is indeed a work.

Anyway. I'm getting tired of typing. Faith is indeed the means by which we are saved. But certainly

Works of righteousness are evidence of the faith residing in the persisting faithful.

>>556374

What passage is that? What things were written into the reader?

>>556347

Is no one going after this one?

>>556376

>Do you suppose the eating of the flesh and the drinking of his blood is not a work established by Christ himself.

If you're talking about John 6:53, see John 6:63.

If you're talking about the communion, see the passages relevant to it.

>>556381

Romans 4:1-5. James 2 talks about how Abraham is justified in the eyes of man and how he profitted others by showing his faith. But Romans 4:1-5 is still true as well.

>>556376

Well if you take him talking about his body and blood being bread and wine then that means ANY one that eats and drinks eat(does communion) is saved forever, even people that don't believe.

John 6

>51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

>54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The bible is a collection of many philosophies, differing through the ages combined into one canon. Why do you keep this shit up where you take everything out of context, and pick and choose. I can tell you one thing, you don't choose what part to listen to if you consider it the divinely appointed canon.

>>556390

It's all true.

>>556390

>John 3:16 is out of context

Jesus told his disciples this parable:

"The kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins

who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Five of them were foolish and five were wise.

The foolish ones, when taking their lamps,

brought no oil with them,

but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps.

Since the bridegroom was long delayed,

they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

At midnight, there was a cry,

'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.

The foolish ones said to the wise,

'Give us some of your oil,

for our lamps are going out.'

But the wise ones replied,

'No, for there may not be enough for us and you.

Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.'

While they went off to buy it,

the bridegroom came

and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him.

Then the door was locked.

Afterwards the other virgins came and said,

'Lord, Lord, open the door for us!'

But he said in reply,

'Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.'

Therefore, stay awake,

for you know neither the day nor the hour."

OSAS BTFO

>>556416

>He has to take a parable about people that weren't saved and got the door closed on them over Jesus saying "I NEVER knew you" or "I should lose nothing but raise them up the last die" or "I WLL NOT blot your name out of the book of life"

>>556418

>die

day*

>>556418

>>556423

they had lamps, they would have been able to get into the marriage feast if they had just burned the oil less beforehand or they had brought extra oil (performed works)

>>556426

Well then that would mean that once youblose your salvation you can't get it back because they closed the door on them. Also again clear statements > parables

>keep the commandments, your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees

So ur saying faith alone?

>only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

So just faith alone is enough?

>those who do not bear good fruit will be cut from me and cast into the fire

Gottcha , so faith is sufficient.

>>556427

>I somehow said you can't get get doctrine from parables

Here's a good parable that shows saying magic words gets saved

Luke 18

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

It's just that clear statements are better than parables

>>556428

here's a clear statement for you then.

"Unless you gnaw my flesh and drink my blood, you will not have eternal life."

the bible does not denote this to be a metaphor, or a parable.

a church that has no sacraments is a counterfeit church that leads only to death.

>>556429

>keep the commandments, your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees

Did I say you shouldn't follow them? And it's not hard to be more righteous than people that don't believe on Christ

>only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Ha will of the Father is just believe on Jesus John 6:38-40

>those who do not bear good fruit will be cut from me and cast into the fire

again a parable that doesn't say what fruit is. Usually it's talking about false or good prophets and their followers

>>556434

>Publican just asks God tonforgive him and he was justified

>Pharisee did many works and didn't sin but is still damned

Hmmm

>>556430

>verse says that you need to humble yourself to be exalted

<YOU DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING TO BE SAVED!!!!

>>556440

That autistic fit your favorite Pharisee gets into is perfect for this thread anon.

>>556439

Yeah you have to believe on Christ. What's your point? Thinking you have to be a good boi that doesn't sin gets you the lake of fire.

>>556439

>I'm justified by MY works

<I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

>>556437

>missing the mark

>>556449

>I somehow boasted about my works

>>556454

>A whole thread devoted to how much smarter and holier I am than everyone else isn't boasting about my works.

>>556458

>ne posting verses I found showing your saved by only believeing on Christ means I think I'm holier than others

>>556460

>Bashing people over the head with pieces of the Word of God is an okay thing for me to do.

>>556461

>I hate scripture

>>556462

I never said that.

I did warn you when you started this thread not to use the Word of God as a weapon.

>>556463

It literally is a weapon

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

>>556465

And what has the way you've used it shown of the thoughts and intents of your heart?

>>556467

Posting scripture from the KJV

>>556470

That's not an answer anon.

>>556472

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

>>556470

I've quoted Scripture two times during this whole 'discussion' anon. Once was a quote from the Sermon on the Mount that's important to remember whenever these doctrinal disputes break out. And one was a quote from the last supper when I was trying to explain my view.

Can you give a testament for every time you quoted Scripture in this thread?

>>556479

The OP post has atleast 150

>>556482

You're evading the issue here anon.

Are you saying you quote Scripture so much that you can't defend your use of it?

>>556479

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

>>556484

Hearing, not Speaking.

>>556483

What?

>>556214

please post the ones that say "alone". I'll wait.

>>556487

I can give a testament for each time I used the Word of God in this thread, can you?

>>556486

Faith doesn't come by making up nice stuff and leaving the word of God aside.

>>556491

Christ is the Word.

You misuse the Word, you misuse Christ.

>>556495

1 Peter 1:23-25

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

>>556488

Okay let me rephrase that first sentence

Here are all the verses I found after reading the NT again that prove you're saved by just believing on Christ.

Better?

>>556501

Like OP himself stated,

>>556465

>is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

I think I am done with this thread now.

>>556512

1 Thessalonians 2:13

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

I thought catholics believed in salvation by faith, if that's not the case, what exactly do they believe? Any catholic mind answering me

by faith alone do you mean that gods grace is not required only faith or do you mean gods grace is required along with faith? im confused

>>556521

Its been explained in this thread if you want to dig through it.

>>556560

>No offense to any Baptist, but OP has done a terrible job representing

He did fine, I don't know what you're talking about. If you want to lay aside the scriptures then just get it over with instead of condescending to us all here.

>>556564

The entire thread went in circles with OP trying to ignore the concept of Grace while simultaneously trying to weasel statements from other anons that he could point to and say 'faith alone'. You can consider that a good job, but to me he came across as a disingenuous apologetic.

>>556552

you get Gid's grace by believing

>>556436

>Ha will of the Father is just believe on Jesus John 6:38

So you believe Jesus when he said only those who do Gods will will inherit heaven? And when he said to keep the commandments and to love God? And you realize the love of God means doing his commandments. And do you believe Jesus when he said those who don't bear good fruits will be burned ?

You believe this ? Or do you deny Jesus message of salvation?

>Christianity means I don't have to do anything to be saved I just have to agree to some historical events regarding Jesus

Hence the utter desolation of modern Protestantism, whether liberal or fundie….

>>556596

>Jesus: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

>He meant the opposite of what he said

> those who don't bear good fruits will be burned ?

skip 11 minutes in

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gge1PoWamh4

>>556597

>you knly have to believe a gutly names Jesus ecisted at some point

no

>>556602

>believe in Jesus just means to believe he existed and did miracles and came back from dead

No believing in him means living off his words and his spirit, he said only those who do the will of God will have eternal life, you must keep the commandments, those who don't bear good fruit don't feed the hungry don't clothe the naked will be cut off and cast into the fire.

You can call him Lord, Lord all you like but faith without works is dead. Belief in Jesus means doing what he taught, not simply believing he existed and was son of God. Even demons can have that dead faith.

Jesus said you have to love God. John defined love of God as keeping his commandments. Jesus said if u want eternal life u must keep the commandments…there is no other path.

Faith that just agrees to "doctrines" is mental masturbation unless it puts them into works.

>>556615

>No believing in him means living off his words and his spirit

>changing what words mean

>he said only those who do the will of God will have eternal life,

John 6:38-40

>you must keep the commandments,

should*

>those who don't bear good fruit don't feed the hungry don't clothe the naked will be cut off and cast into the fire.

>>556602

>You can call him Lord, Lord all you like

read the 2 verses after that

>but faith without works is dead.

https://youtu.be/dPqSelVJvoA

>Belief in Jesus means doing what he taught, not simply believing he existed and was son of God.

>changing what words mean

>Even demons can have that dead faith.

demons don't believe on Christ and aren't human

>>556597

what did the death burial and resurrection of Christ accomplish in your view?

>>556615

This is really core issue people have with the ones that preach the 'one baptism, faith alone' doctrine.

I remember a saying, can't recall if its Scripture or not. 'The Holy Spirit cannot reside in Sin.'

If sinning moves you farther from God, then one of your goals should be not to sin. It really is a simple idea when you think about it.

It doesn't have to be a public good work. But you should be able see the Holy Spirit's impact in the way you live your life.

>>556214

Good, now find in the Bible where it says how you should worship and when you should fast.

>>556634

Matthew 6, Psalms, Luke 11(I think).

>>556638

>Matthew 6

Yes. It only says "when you fast" never giving a date.

>Psalms

Yes. They are often used as hymns or songs of worship.

>Luke 11

Yes that is part of worshiping is to know the prayers the Apostles spread that Jesus said.

All are right but does it exactly say anything on how to worship? You see references to it, like how to pray, and how to fast. But it never gives details.

What is your answer to this.

>>556265

>faith, hope, and love abide; but the greatest of these is love

>the GREATEST

>>556676

Pretty sure it was charity. And again 1 corinthians 13 is being helpful to your brithers and sisters

>>556672

Mattew 6 says how to pray

Psalm 150

1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.

Maybe it was the wrong chapter. Whatever the parallel one of Matthew 6 is

>>556688

How to pray, not how to worship at Church. Though I agree you can't have one without the other.

Yes, Psalms is sung at Synagogues and Churches.

There is nothing in the Bible detailing worship, only mentioning it as if it were already known. For example, when Jesus talking about fasting in Matthew 6:16. It never says when to fast, if the Bible is all that is necessary then how will one know when to fast. It certainly does say how to fast and pray, but these are only parts of worshiping God. You will find also that Jesus says to listen to the Pharisees but not do what they do. It never mentions the Pharisees' authority in the Old Testament yet here Jesus is preaching to his flock that they do have authority.

>>556684

Okay, so charity is greater than faith?

You've just admitted faith is not all that's necessary.

>baptist posters

>intelligent

>>556707

were you false flagging in a different thread?

confess.

>>556707

Charity is more impotang if it's for helping others

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

pride

>>556214

In the first place, we feel that we should advise the faithful that they would endanger the salvation of their souls if they acted on the false assurance that faith alone is sufficient for salvation or that they need not perform good works in order to be saved. This, in fact, is what some had thought even in the time of the apostles. for at that time there were some who did not understand certain rather obscure passages of St. Paul, and who thought therefore that he had said: Let us do evil that there may come good [Rom 3:8]. They thought that this was what St. Paul meant when he said: The law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound [Rom 5:20]. When St. Paul says, therefore, that man is justified by faith and not by the observance of the law, he does not mean that good works are not necessary or that it is enough to receive and to profess the faith and no more. What he means rather and what he wants us to understand is that man can be justified by faith, even though he has not previously performed any works of the law. I do not see why the Lord said: If you will enter into life, keep the commandments [Matt 19:17], or why, after He had said this, He listed those which one must keep in order to live a good life [Matt 19:18-19], if one can obtain eternal life without keeping the commandments, by faith alone, which without works is dead [Jas 2:14]. And then, too, how will the Lord be able to say to those whom He will place on His left hand: Go you into the everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels [Matt 25:41]? For it is evident that He rebukes them, not because they did not believe in Him, but because they did not perform good works. [Matt 25:44]

– St. Augustine (Divi Aurelii Augustini de Fide et operibus, Caput XV)

https://books.google.com/books?id=MnOBKgDjwxsC

Didn't mean ti post that second image

>>560028

If faith only iustify, then it justifies without charity, since faith without charity is still faith. But that was contrary to the text of the Apostle: If I should haue all faith, so that I could remove mountaines, and haue not charitie, I am nothing.

Therefore faith alone does not justify.

>>560157

That would contradict him saying were justified by faith and not the deeds of the law.

Also 1 Corthians 13 is helping out man/brothers in Christ. NOT salvation.

>>560190

Same with James 2

>>560157

>But that was contrary to the text of the Apostle: If I should haue all faith, so that I could remove mountaines, and haue not charitie, I am nothing.

Paul is talking about these things inwardly considered, which is best in and of itself, not which is best for justification, in which case love is worthless, but faith is all sufficient.

>>556356

its quite sad ichigo didnt end up with rukia

Faith Alone (Sola Fide):

Have you been taught that Catholics

“Work their way to Heaven?”

Many modern Christians believe that Catholic theology teaches that we are saved by doing “good works”, or that Catholics “work their way to heaven.” Nothing could be further from the truth. This is another example of the misunderstandings about the apostolic Catholic Faith. The Catholic Faith teaches, as the Holy Scriptures teach, that we are saved “by grace through faith” and that salvation is a free gift. The Faith has always believed this. The Christian Faith has always taught that one cannot work one's way to heaven. In essence:

“we are NOT born by good works, we are born TO good works; once justified, we should act as justified Christians, which includes good works.”

"The Catholic Faith does not teach “works righteousness.” It teaches faith in action as a manifestation of God’s grace in one’s life. That’s why Abraham’s faith results in righteousness, only when he attempts to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God."(1) The Council of Trent in the 16th century after the Protestant separation reiterated this very fact, which was originally proclaimed 1000 years earlier at the Council of Orange in the 6th century. This has always been a teachings of the Christian Faith

. Catholics believe in Faith Alone as long as the word “Faith” is properly understood. The Apostolic Faith does not teach that one can simply say the “Sinners Prayer” and go to heaven no matter how grievous a crime he commits afterward. (Most mainline Protestant denominations do not teach this either, although most Baptist and "non-denominational" churches do.)

>>560219

So your saying to stay saved you have to do works and not sin? That's works.

>The Apostolic Faith does not teach that one can simply say the “Sinners Prayer” and go to heaven no matter how grievous a crime he commits afterward.

Will Jesus and the Holy Ghost do

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

>>560223

i am very sad, I think OSAS does indeed make sense but i thats the only single point i agree with baptists or brotespants.

i dont know what to do in my religious choice from now on

>>560226

So you believe in OSAS bit you're catholic? I'm pretty sure you're not catholic then.

>>560228

how can I not be catholic?

i AM.

Im investigating,im sure catholics invented osas but there was a kind of liberal conspiracy to re-write history during VCII.

maybe

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Is this about faith without works?

>>560233

Well some catholics claim to believe OSAS in that you aren't saved until you die. But what OSAS really means is also known as "Eternal security of the believer," which catholics definitely deny.

>>560792

Yes, those who hear his sayings about believing on him, and do them not, are not saved. Like the guys in Matthew 7:22-23, in the previous verse, who were still trusting in their works to be saved.

>>560792

>Jesus: Anyone that believes on me has everlasting life but you should still do works and follow the commandments

>Baptists: Anyone that believes on Jesus has everlasting life but you should still do works and follow the commandments

>cathlodox: Durrf why do baptists say you shouldn't do works

>>561276

>literally having to make up quotes to justify your position

Please be troll.

>>561280

>Jesus didn't say anyone that believes on him has evelasting life

BOI!!!

John 6:47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

>>561338

Yeah he did say that, just not the part you added.

>>561339

Well he later said to keep the commandments. They're called COMMANDments

Also this one basically says what I said but it's the Holy Ghost

Ephesians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So baptists think faith/belief just means mental assent to some historical facts about Jesus and what he did?

And they think that is sufficient for salvation? What

>>561456

>faith/belief just means mental assent to some historical facts about Jesus and what he did?

The people who saw his miracles and did not believe, had mental assent, but not faith. So yeah, no idea there where you're getting this. But its good to see you're trying.

Protestantism is a meme.

>>561763

Correct

>>561719

They accepted the fact the miracles happened, they were eyewitnesses to those events. So that covers what you were talking about. Yet they did not believe on Jesus Christ. Therefore, faith is not what you were talking about. Keep trying though.

>>561832

>They accepted the fact the miracles happened, they were eyewitnesses to those events. So that covers what you were talking about. Yet they did not believe on Jesus Christ.

That's cause faith in Jesus means more than believing in Jesus, his powers and divine identity.

Many will believe he is Lord and did good works, and they will still go to hell.

>>561875

You have to believe His word. Which is that whoever believes his word shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. If you don't believe that based on Him saying it, then you don't have faith.

So in other words, if you still want to think your own works will merit eternal life (many people do), you therefore chose not to believe his word. As some eyewitnesses to the historical facts and events of Jesus still chose not to believe his word, even though they knew for a fact his works firsthand. So there's a big difference and misunderstanding, or maybe intentional misrepresentation, on his part. >>561456

>>561879

>You have to believe His word. Which is that whoever believes his word shall not come into condemnation

So you have to believe he said words, you don't actually have to obey and keep his words to get saved? Because if you have to obey and keep his words that means you have to repent, you have to keep the commandments, you have to do good works….

>So in other words, if you still want to think your own works will merit eternal life (many people do), you therefore chose not to believe his word.

He literally said to do good works and keep the commandments and those who don't bear good fruit get cut off from his body and burned.

"keep the commandments…feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned" and that "those who do not bear good fruit will be cut off and thrown in the fire…for when I was hungry you did not feed me, I was thirsty, and you didn't give me drink…etc"

>>561763

Not an argument.

Wasn't works based salvation an orthodox belief?

>>562046

There is no such as thing as works based salvation in the apostolic belief. It's Grace based.

>>562043

By grace.

>>562043

If you're able to believe

>>562051

>It's not works that saves you it's the grace of God but to get the grace you have to do works

>>562051

The debates were regarding the sufficiency if grace not the necessity of it. Almost all religions believe in grace, heck even Muslims do, but the reformers understood it it was by faith alone through grace.

>>561919

>He literally said to do good works and keep the commandments and those who don't bear good fruit get cut off from his body and burned.

None of those things contradict what I said. You won't be able to do those without being given faith, grace and eternal life first. And that eternal life is conditional on faith only, as He said, John 5:24.

Romans 11:6

>And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So doing good works isn't out of a spirit of self-serving to earn or merit salvation, because we already have it by grace. The Lord is worthy to be served without any personal motive such as earned your way to heaven. Christ fulfilled all merit for us and told us that the will of the Father is that we believe on him (John 6:40), he did the works. His righteousness is imputed to us. So to deny and change that into a personal works salvation is both destructive for yourself and evil, Galatians 1:9. That would be giving yourself something to glory and boast about.

Also all of Scripture is his word. But I guess you didn't figure that out yet. Because anyone who takes Romans 3-6 seriously would already know all of this, there's just no getting around it.

Romans 4:1-5

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>>556263

Ephesians 2:8,9

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.…

>>562683

>not KJV

>>562704

New International Version

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

New Living Translation

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Berean Study Bible

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Berean Literal Bible

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

King James Bible

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Holman Christian Standard Bible

For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift–

International Standard Version

For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

NET Bible

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

New Heart English Bible

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation

God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

New American Standard 1977

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Jubilee Bible 2000

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,

King James 2000 Bible

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American King James Version

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American Standard Version

for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Douay-Rheims Bible

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Darby Bible Translation

For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:

English Revised Version

for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Webster's Bible Translation

For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Weymouth New Testament

For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit–

World English Bible

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

>>564728

Also the Acts 19:4 wasn't what I meant by not being able to find it

bump

>>556221

Disprove Calvinism.

bump

>>573969

Impossible