/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>552532

>Of course I believe in respecting the rules about not taking eucharist.

this is already better than most protestants, since they can't grasp spiritual realities and are offended by them completely.

>I can't find it in myself to believe (at least right now) but my personal ethics strongly resemble christianity.

even a tiny bit of faith is better than nothing do you believe there is an objective right and objective wrong? do you think an unchanging, immaterial truth exists somewhere and humans are able to grasp it, at least in part?

everyone starts somewhere, as long as you are seeking and not falling into agnostic relativism or atheistic skepticism then there is hope.

>>552537

>The apostolic age says the eucharist is spiritual

>Protestants say it's spiritual and it serves solely as a memorial service

>Non-Apostolics retardily screech because of their too late tradition

You can stop joking, you're only amusing yourselves.

>>552537

>this is already better than most protestants, since they can't grasp spiritual realities and are offended by them completely.

I was actually raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, so eucharist is pretty important to them, they practice close communion. But I'd almost consider them closer to Catholics than they are to certain protestant denominations (especially Baptists).

>do you believe there is an objective right and objective wrong?

Definitely, even if my current ethics draw heavily from Mill's utilitarianism and to a lesser extent Kantian ethics.

>do you think an unchanging, immaterial truth exists somewhere and humans are able to grasp it, at least in part?

Honestly, I'm not sure. I was a pretty hardcore empiricist for the longest time and like Hume a lot, but going to a Jesuit university and taking metaphysics here is making me reconsider. I like Descartes a lot. I've also read Baumgarten's metaphysics, but I think Descarte's ontological argument was much better formulated than Baumgarten's.

>>552615

>it wasn't pure symbol

None of the reformers believed in pure symbolism

>>552617

Of course.

Luther wasn't totally myopic and confused, like many low brow protestant sects these days… i.e Andersonites

>>552532

I strongly encourage you to attend church. Many people, including frequent church attendees, suffer from weak faith. In time, your faith will grow as you continue to come in contact with God and make connections in your parish.

Consider praying the prayer

>Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!

>>552615

>yes high lutheran churches are decent, far better than other prot options

Their liturgy wasn't really high. It was pretty UCC tier tbqh. Power points, rock bands, etc. I always preferred going to the traditional service.

About two years ago I'd go to an Episcopal church every sunday. I know most people on here are against ordaining women, same sex marriage, etc., but their litrugy was fantastic.

From both of those experiences, I'd at least consider myself to culturally be a "small c catholic."

>>552624

I remember that prayer in my lutheran upbringing.

My city is pretty diverse in terms of Christian denoms. Most Orthodox groups have a cathedral here.

I'm thinking I'll go to a different place of worship every sunday for the next several weeks.

>>552629

Good luck! I hope you find a good church nearby and God bless.

>>552629

you should visit an Orthodox church, talk to the priest, and see how their liturgy goes.

I haven't been to many myself, but the one I go to now is amazing.

Everything is so well structured, the liturgy is very interactive, the prayers, prostrations, incense, and the priests singing voice gives me goosebumps. He's russian and very experienced.

>>552641

>>552643

What language is it in? Church Slavonic? The ethnic language?

I looked up the Ukrainian Orthodox cathedral near me, and they have English and Ukrainian masses. I'm not sure if that's just the sermon and the rest of it is in Slavonic or something.

Should I read up on how I should behave during mass beforehand?

I'm also considering visiting a coptic church, there was this coptic girl (who looking back I think had a crush on me but I digress) at my old community college who was telling me about her church once and it seemed pretty interesting.

>>552653

>What language is it in? Church Slavonic? The ethnic language?

I would say 70% is in russian, and 30% is in english, depending on what the attendance looks like.

At first I thought I would be confused, but I read the liturgy in english (st basil or st chrysostom) so I know the gist of it regardless of the language. And listening to it in russian is kind of cool for some reason.

Priest tends to do his sermons/teachings in english though so everyone can understand. But if there are a lot of asians then his helper priest speaks in asian.

ortho church is in south east asia.

>>552653

Well, if you're asking specifically about the Orthodox Church, it very much depends on the parish you're attending. If they say that the service is in English as a Ukrainian church, I'd guesstimate:

>20% chance everything in English

>60% mostly English with some Slavonic hymns

>15% mostly Slavonic with the Gospel/Epistle readings + homily in English

>5% only the homily in English

But you really have to go and scope it out yourself or ask the priest ahead of time. If only Russians and Ukrainians attend, usually they'll be more Slavonic used in the service. More converts means more English, language use is usually based purely on demand.

My parish, for reference, calls itself an English parish, but has mixed Slavonic-English services where the priest and choir switch back and forth between the languages within the service. All the readings and the homily are always in English. The attendance is spilt between converts and Russian-speaking families with primarily English-speaking kids.

It wouldn't hurt to check out the Copts. I personally wouldn't mind getting to scope out one of their liturgies since there aren't any near me. Be warned, though, that their services can get a little long!

>>552653

And as for your behavior, since I forgot to mention it, just generally be respectful. Expect to stand for most of the service and quietly observe the goings on. If people are moving out of the way for something, move with them and so on. When the priest brings out the chalice for Communion, don't go up. Pretty much that simple.

You might send the priest an email or something and introduce yourself. That way, he or a deacon can say hello before the service and give you more specific advice.

>>552650

Didache 9 and 10:3

As if people change ideas when dealt with social pressures, in this case the pressures were people who denied Jesus's humanity. We know this evolution took place because of Ignatius's reaction to the Docetists and according to John 6:63 the eucharist wasn't meant to be His physical presence rather spiritual.

>>552673

that the bread is imbued and blessed with his 'spiritual presence' is degrees above the idea that it's just a metaphor, a symbol, a gesture you do in remembrence of him, which implies it lacks spiritual and grace giving efficacy. The eucharist has power, if properly administered and believed in.

transubstantiation goes too far, while the "its just symbolism and a nice gesture" goes too far in the opposite direction.

Similarly this applies to the mystery of baptism.

>>552673

>according to John 6:63 the eucharist

I just want to point out that nothing in that chapter has to do with the ordinance of the Lord's supper. Rather it has to do with receiving his words as John 6:63 rightly distinguishes. The words themselves are his flesh that he was referring to, there were no bread or wine elements present in that passage whatsoever. Those appear later, in a different context.

>>552693

And since you seem to have some issue with any people not agreeing with you, let me tell you that nobody here takes God's ordinances lightly.

>>552532

Yes, I would encourage you to go and speak to the pastor and be honest about your situation. Of course we all like you to be saved. Also try reading or listening to the Bible.

>>552693

>Divinity goes too far, and "he was just a man" goes too far in the opposite direction. Jesus was an important spiritual creature.

This is what happens when random retards oppose divine authroity and start to create fanfics about what is and isn't "going too far".

>>552798

The odd thing is, my views are pretty grounded in secular philosophy, but I come to similar conclusions to Christianity.

For example, while I might not believe sex before marriage is morally wrong, I'm starting to really think it's not a good idea for me, at least. I'm 22 and still a virgin, and while this wasn't exactly my choice at first, I'm leaning towards just sticking it out until marriage.

>>552960

>siplle nature

>Simple nature *

>>552960

Yeah I totally see what you mean. Even if STDs weren't a thing, I'd still be really reluctant to sleep around. Marriage aside, I'd wait months or even years into a relationship before sex. Part of why I'm interested in joining a church is because I feel like I'd be more likely to find a nice woman who shares my values on this topic.

I have really mixed feelings about Kantian ethics. I do like Mill's utilitarianism a lot, but that's kind of a side point.

I feel like part of what draws me towards religion is something a bit like Pascal's wager. I'm really bothered by the inevitability of death and the possibility of eternal oblivion. If I embrace belief in an afterlife and I'm right, great! If I'm wrong, I don't technically lose anything, but my life was better without the dread of eternal oblivion.

>>553390

Pascal's wager has to assume that God is somehow unaware of Pascal's wager. But in any case I'm hoping you follow a similar kind of path that me and a lot of us have. The question you have to ask yourself is whether truth exists. And if so, how— or by what means— would you know it. Or even how would it be made known.

>>553407

I read through a good chunk of the OT in the NIV when I was in confirmation, I'm not sure how much I retain. I should set out to read it over the course of several months. It's long, but it's fairly light reading compared to some stuff I've seen in class (i.e. Kant).

>>553407

Dime a dozen, anon.

>>553413

You can't go far in this doggy dog world without knowing a couple of idioms, Ortho-anon. We often take for granite certain phrases we say without realizing how they're actually spelled.

Hopefully this peek's your interest in more household phrases.

>>553390

>I feel like part of what draws me towards religion is something a bit like Pascal's wager. I'm really bothered by the inevitability of death and the possibility of eternal oblivion. If I embrace belief in an afterlife and I'm right, great! If I'm wrong, I don't technically lose anything, but my life was better without the dread of eternal oblivion.

This is where we're different i guess. I dont care at all about what happens after death or the afterlife, i really do not care. What matters most to me is being able to share and spread love, truth, wisdom and peace though the imitation of Christ and the Saint's philosophies - this, i feel, is what's most important above all.

>>553449

And also belief in Him and all of His works. For without, there would be nothing at all.