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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: c7dd1d3faebbc37⋯.jpg (241.43 KB, 876x2048, 219:512, 1912_saint_sebastian_2k.jpg)

b2fdf2 No.550427

i want to believe in god but it seems so bleek and limited

>there is a god who rules all things

>you have to do the things he wants you to do like wait for marriage, follow certain dietary laws and be kind

>if you do or don't you will go to heaven if you truly believe in his divine son

>once in heaven everything is good

that is all there is sure those things are nice but there are not challenges or mysteries. no new depths or dynamics. it just seems like we have no real purpose. i have read about this and the theory i like the most is that of Boheme, Eckhart, Schelling and other such Platonist but the bible says that philosophy is bad and that all there is to life is to do as one is told

287cac No.550430

Yep that's about what there is to it. That and 1 corinthians 14:26.


900e4f No.550431

>>550427

>follow certain dietary laws

Like saying grace before eating?


d3edbc No.550433

File: d24e37d28f9981b⋯.jpg (118.01 KB, 700x438, 350:219, EucharisticMiracle.jpg)

>>550427

Look OP, I'm not the kind of guy to deal with this as I don't know why he dislikes those things either.

But I wanted to tell you that you're searching for a reason to like God and deciding whether to believe him based on that, you are insane.

If you are interested in doing things logically, here's a few key phrases for you to put on your local search engine(Hopefully not google).

"Eucharistic Miracles"

"Marian Apparitions"

"Incorruptibility of the Saints"(You could even search for a body on your country and go there to see if he really smells of roses)

"Shroud of Turin"

There are probably more, but my memory ends here.


b2fdf2 No.550439

>>550433

>>550433

that is not the point. the point is why would god model things like that where he creates things with wishes for individuality and desire for new creative things and demands that they live under a very strict pre-defined reality where the end all be all of being is believing in him and doing what he says


38874f No.550440

>that is all there is sure those things are nice but there are not challenges or mysteries. no new depths or dynamics. it just seems like we have no real purpose.

Literally the opposite of everything you said here is true to an extreme.


b2fdf2 No.550444

>>550440

what more is there to god but obeying his rules and being happy when he rewards you for it


d3edbc No.550445

File: 9b9f3636fd7368d⋯.png (31.94 KB, 300x300, 1:1, 1423180384093.png)

>>550439

I've been trying to figure it out for a while so I guess?

We ARE going to get power over angels after the days marked in the Book of Revelations end. God didn't come and say what happens afterwards, though, but it must be something because there's no reason to give power to someone when he's just going to lie around in heaven.


b2fdf2 No.550446

>>550445

that is why i like boehme cause he said god made us for new perspectives and entities that have unique values and views to help him see new things


909d27 No.550447

>>550439

There's a logical reason for every sin. All sin really comes down to worshiping the world and yourself, at least as far as I can see. Correct me if I'm wrong.


b2fdf2 No.550450

>>550447

again not the point. it is simply why does a cosmic ruler create us only to have us obey his words


763b07 No.550453

>>550450

>why does a cosmic ruler create beings He expects to follow his rules

Real stumper that one


976f0f No.550454

File: 98126c5242b7173⋯.jpg (141.92 KB, 960x731, 960:731, yseo[76sdsrh.jpg)

>>550427

Rungs on the ladder. Learn about Neostoicism, and try looking at things from God's perspective. Remember that this world is fleeting and God, the Father, and our mentor, can be all-forgiving.

>once in heaven everything is good

Everything is good and will always be good, no matter what. Heaven, or whatever anyone may call it, could only be the next step in our journey.


b2fdf2 No.550456

>>550453

well yeah why would he do it. why would he make us just for the sole purpose of telling us what to do.


d3edbc No.550459

File: 7f63e9130a57907⋯.png (269.18 KB, 493x344, 493:344, ff9goa730ysgh6f8hdfg4jy94h….png)

>>550450

Sins aren't just rules, they're related to god himself. They seem to be unpalatable and offensive to his very nature. The flesh of his Son makes people sick when they eat it. Your flesh is sinful and the only humans to ascend to heaven with flesh so far is Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, with the former being god anyways.

But either way if I go to heaven I'll meet him and that will make me feel complete because that's his nature, so I'm not going to complain.


f90359 No.550460

>>550427

>that is all there is sure those things are nice but there are not challenges or mysteries. no new depths or dynamics. it just seems like we have no real purpose. i have read about this and the theory i like the most is that of Boheme, Eckhart, Schelling and other such Platonist but the bible says that philosophy is bad and that all there is to life is to do as one is told

Learn more about Catholicism, i.e. the most intellectual religion in human history


915c6b No.550463

>>550439

>demands that they live under a very strict pre-defined reality where the end all be all of being is believing in him and doing what he says

>very strict pre-defined reality

The Bible doesn't make every single choice for you. It doesn't tell you what cereal you must choose tomorrow morning or if you should double-knot your shoes.

God wanted to let us know "Hey, you have a purpose, if you strive to fulfill your purpose, you'll be happy". The Bible emphasizes free will, it is all your choice. You even have the choice not to obey His law, that is also in your choice. You can choose Hell if you want, God won't stop you.


915c6b No.550466

>>550427

>there are not challenges or mysteries. no new depths or dynamics

Also, I just got finished reading Saint Augustine's City of God so this comment triggered me.

Try reading some Christian literature, try studying the Bible a bit more. It seems like you're still hung up on a very superficial understanding of Christianity and you don't want to dig a little deeper. From your OP all you have down is the most basic plan for salvation that you would get from someone knocking on your door to invite you to church.


900e4f No.550473

File: 59d785c15161533⋯.jpg (73.37 KB, 960x719, 960:719, 59d785c15161533a9b925f22ba….jpg)

>>550446

Heresy gross and foul


900e4f No.550475

>>550459

>Jesus Christ and his mother Mary

Also Elijah


b2fdf2 No.550538

>>550473

>god made us cause he wanted new individuals that were independent and free to create and make beautiful things for him to revel in like david who made music that made him happy

>digusting

>god created with no choice but gave him the illusion of choice so that those who are made evil by him are tortured and punished for eternity because he made it that way and those he made good are really just good cause he made them do it.

>perfectly normal and biblical


b2fdf2 No.550540

>>550463

what does free will matter thou if i can only choose heaven or hell, good or bad. there is no choice for new things for nothing is really new god made the world with a priori things and the inability for new things to be created by others but only by him giving us a drive for creativity while designating the ability only to himself


e80b29 No.550546

I wish people stopped talking about things they clearly know nothing about.


b2fdf2 No.550548

>>550546

>existance has a priori circumstances

>god is the one with the ability to create new things (Ecclesiastes)

please tell me again how stupid i am that helps renew a waning faith


e80b29 No.550551

>>550548

I don't know what you are talking about. God is the ultimate creator of everything. And not only in the past. God is the current, ultimate cause of everything.


915c6b No.550557

>>550540

You either accept the nature that God has provided you with or you don't. You accept his purpose or you don't.

There are plenty of choices outside of that choice, though those choices will depend on that previously mentioned, fundamental choice.

To be honest your criticism is pretty vague and could be applied to virtually any philosophy or belief system. Everybody is looking for the "right" way to live their lives. If you completely throw out the pursuit of the objective good, you have no real option but nihilism. Everything is arbitrary, everything is subjective, let's all just shoot fentanyl and believe in 15 quadrillion genders until we overdose, it makes no difference.


b2fdf2 No.550598

>>550557

every time a make a thread about anything it always eventually boils down to

>you are just a anti-moral atheist nihilism cuck numale who wants a gorrilion genders)

the question is why would god create us if we can't do anything for him, the majority of us are going to hell and he was in control of it the whole time


e80b29 No.550619

>>550598

He is in control the whole time, which means you can't foil God's plan. God's plan involves us, but it is mysterious. This plan involves our creation and that of many other creatures. And we have free will/intellect/consciousness as part of this plan. And this plan is unknown to us, and is above us.

You seem to understand God as a glorified man.


b2fdf2 No.550643

>>550619

>God made you as a part of a pre-determined plan

>but you are free to decide what happens and have importance

these things contridict


d3edbc No.550644

>>550643

You'll find out that they don't.


0c48a0 No.550656

>>550427

>the bible says that philosophy is bad

Where?


b2fdf2 No.550657

File: a0dc514905b9950⋯.jpg (34.63 KB, 500x235, 100:47, Colossians2_8.jpg)

>>550656

here it is


915c6b No.550659

>>550598

>every time a make a thread about anything

Then maybe you need to make better threads. You were talking earlier about how it's "unfair" and "restrictive" to have a choice between good and bad. That concept in itself is not something exclusive to Christianity. Rejecting that concept in its entirety and labeling both as subjective is, in fact, nihilism. That's what nihilism is, feel free to look it up.

>the question is why would god create us if we can't do anything for him, the majority of us are going to hell and he was in control of it the whole time

Well, now you're changing your question.

Read some basic philosophy, start with Socrates and how to define your terms. I don't think anybody here can help you as long as you keep moving your goalposts and making extremely vague statements about how Christianity is "unfair" over and over again.


0c48a0 No.550660

File: 9145141e462aa25⋯.jpg (34.65 KB, 547x182, 547:182, 345343453456456.JPG)

>>550657

Seems to vary on the translation, some mention "hollow" philosophy and the like.

Regardless, any non-fundamentalist reading would see this as simply condemning being led astray from God through empty worldly knowledge. Christian philosophy has a long and storied history. Philosophy is good, not condemned.


f90359 No.550662

>>550657

>rather than

Here are the key words


033807 No.550665

We live this life to so His works through him; we live to act closer to how God acts. We're tainted by sin, and are constantly beset by the temptations of the world; God's law gives us a blueprint on how to navigate life while staying true to Him. The reward for our diligence is eternal paradise, and our failure leaves one open to damnation.

There's nothing wrong with philosophy, but it is important to remember they are made by flawed men, whereas God's Law has no such disclaimer.


b2fdf2 No.550760

>>550665

that is what i am saying all their seems to life in the christian model is a simple dichotomy of yes and no. accept god and say yes and you win and life is over eternal bliss you refuse and eternal punishment and that is it. there is no reason to do anything else because it is all in god's hands we have no purpose and no agency as god predetermined all these things


99a4bc No.550846

>>550760

We do have free agency, but it would be unwise to go against what God has said is right and wrong. Part of our responsibility as Christians is to share the Gospel as a means of sheparding souls to God, more out of concern for their spiritual well-being and future afterlife than malice or power tripping. I have faith in both myself and in others that believe in God will be saved, and that a temporarily restrained life is worth countless lifetimes of joy. It comes down to individual choice and faith in our Creator's love. Anyone is capable of it, but being able is not the same as it being done.


0f2898 No.551062

>>550760

>accept god and say yes and you win and life is over eternal bliss you refuse and eternal punishment

god isn't just some bearded guy telling you what to do, god is the very order of things, accepting god is essentially accepting reality and denying him is engulfing yourself in lies to justify it. Good and bad aren't some artifical rulesets, they are a basic part, it's the natural law. If you say that being good is a limitation, ask yourself, why wouldn't you want to be good? What is there worth doing that isn't good? What is the value of sin? Rebelling against what is good for you is by definition a juvenile thing and by extension selfish, shortsided and ignorant. The world is ordered, in a myriad of ways, this doesn't limit us as it is the very thing that gives us a foundation for ourself, a way to gain a perspective and to find a direction, without this order there could be so such a thing as purpose, everything would be a mere relative fluke in total chaos.


9d097b No.551069

God created man as an image of Himself. The whole point of religion is understanding the mysteries of creation, our role in it, and the love our Heavenky Father has for us.

His will, the "rules" we have to follow, have the sole function to prepare a person morally and spiritually for the future.

There is more to reality than we could understand in an eternity, and the fact that you fail to see all the facets of spirituality is not surprising.

They only start unfolding once you accept Him.


e80b29 No.551072

>>550643

You are free to do certain things. But you can be sure that:

1) You are not going to become God

2) You will never be able to spoil God's plan

And there is nothing wrong with this.


0fe9fb No.551084

File: fa3e76f9cb6bf60⋯.png (102.91 KB, 500x522, 250:261, only-the-dismal-abyss-of-b….png)

>>550427

Hell according to Orthodoxy is state of soul when you despise God and because you are made like him, yourself. And as evil is deficiency of good and doesnt exist ontologically, you are willing to end yourself to dismal abyss of black nothingness (but you cant because you're immortal. So tldr hell is when you are immortal and want to kys). And no, there is no "meh" ground in relationship with God. You either love him or hate him. And yes, every sinner hates God, even if he doesnt realize this.

>19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

>20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

>21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


b2fdf2 No.551085

>>551072

yes but i also can't create anything new creation is given to god. also how am i free if everything is predefined by a very specific plan and everything i do was planned by god and not me


0fe9fb No.551086

>>551084

meant for this

>>550540


b2fdf2 No.551088

>>551084

yes but the orthodox also believe you become part of god in heaven and so the ability to create things a new is granted to you


0fe9fb No.551090

>>551085

>yes but i also can't create anything new creation is given to god.

What does this even mean? We already have property, that is entire creation. To Imagen like this: There is King (God) and there are his children, that are sort of vassal princes (Humans). Yes, technically everything supreme ruler is God (king), but this doesnt mean that Princes (Humans) dont own anything.

And this is, despite being most accurate analogue, is bad too, because God doesnt need anything, he is self sufficient. Everything that he made, he made for Humans to own, as it is stated in book of Esdras (8:44 I think).

>>551088

>you become part of god

No, we are not pantheists and dont become another hypostasis of God. You got "theosis" wrong. Its about becoming gods (small g, to be like Him) not God (big G, to be literal part of Him). as for power of creation thing anew are possessed by us even in this degenerate state as we transform everything by our desire. If you are implying about "creation ex nihilo", that requires omnipotence and can be accomplished only by God himself, no one more. (though in theory he can grant us this power. he is omnipotent after all. but I doubt it as "he shares his glory to no one".)


e80b29 No.551091

>>551085

If you understand creation as being the ultimate cause, then you can't.

You can, however, put your talents to good use. The artisan that crafts incredible pieces, or the writer, or the engineer, etc. These things are ultimately achieved thanks to God, but you still are the one who makes them.

You are free because you are made in God's image and therefore have an intellect and a consciousness, and can make choices. God's plan will be more or less specific, but in no way does this contradict what I just said.

You can plan, and you have freedom. But obviously, you can't trick God, so everything you do, even if it goes against God, is because God allows it.


0fe9fb No.551098

>>550540

I've only read this now

>god made the world with a priori things and the inability for new things to be created by others but only by him giving us a drive for creativity while designating the ability only to himself

your statement is flawed and wrong.

Dad knows how to draw a tree. son also knows how to draw tree. Son draw a tree. Father didn't draw a tree and is proud of a cute painting of his son. Likewise, the fact that God knows everything in his infinite knowledge, doesn't mean, that he created everything he could create out o all infinite possibilities to create and Mankind is given infinite possibilities and ways to be creative. Just Imagen how many fantasy worlds we have created in games, literature, cartoons and so on. So I don't see problem here.


57d0dd No.551114

>>551090

>Its about becoming gods

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.


0fe9fb No.551123

>>551114

>6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (psalm 82:6)

>Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? (John 10:34)

also, thanks for ignoring what I wrote in parenthesies


57d0dd No.551126

>>551123

>>6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (psalm 82:6)

>>Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? (John 10:34)

They are called gods because of their authority, not because they actually are gods. Keep in mind these are the Jews who will crucify Christ, does theosis state these people are not only gods, but gods on earth?

>thanks for ignoring what I wrote in parenthesies

What you wrote was false. Nothing is like God, nothing is capable of being like God. Saying that something is "like" God is to create a similarity that is impossible. We can only become "like" God in an analogous sense.


0fe9fb No.551133

>>551126

>They are called gods because of their authority, not because they actually are gods. Keep in mind these are the Jews who will crucify Christ, does theosis state these people are not only gods, but gods on earth?

Thanks for confirming my point that you think about "god" as in essence and not as in descriptive term, on which I noted to previous anon.

>What you wrote was false. Nothing is like God, nothing is capable of being like God.

<And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

t. Genesis 1:26

<"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

t. Genesis 9:6

<Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

t. Matthew 5:48

<With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

t. James 3:9


57d0dd No.551138

>>551133

>t. Genesis 1:26

Likeness means image

>t. Genesis 9:6

The image of God means that man is a rational creature

>t. Matthew 5:48

The Father is given as an example, not a corollary


0fe9fb No.551142

>>551138

>Likeness means image

>The image of God means that man is a rational creature

No it doesnt. First of all, it is never clearly stated what image of God means in fullness. rationality and free will is part of it but not its totality.

Second of all, image doesnt mean likeness. in that case, bible would use single term for them both. Imago Dei is inherent to mankind, to every descedent of Adam and eve, while "likeness" is potential development that we can achieve, which is theosis.

>The Father is given as an example, not a corollary

What was the point to write this absolutely unneeded comment? Yes, God is an etalon what should we be like. And since he is infinite and we are finite, this is an eternal journey.


57d0dd No.551151

>>551142

>First of all, it is never clearly stated what image of God means in fullness

You can go ahead and rule out anything not stated to be the image of God as being vain philosophy

>Second of all, image doesnt mean likeness. in that case, bible would use single term for them both

You sound very new to both English and communication in general

>"likeness" is potential development that we can achieve, which is theosis

Where does it say that? The verses you posted say man is the likeness of God right now, and has been since he was created

>And since he is infinite and we are finite, this is an eternal journey

Trying to become like God is the sin of Satan and Adam and lands one firmly in hell


0fe9fb No.551158

>>551151

>You can go ahead and rule out anything not stated to be the image of God as being vain philosophy

what does it even mean?

>You sound very new to both English and communication in general

how high is your horse, anon? You should rather study words and terminology in general. And I dont care if you consider that in English those two have same meaning. But the fact is, that it doesnt, and if it would use one term instead of two.

<כו וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ; וְיִרְדּוּ בִדְגַת הַיָּם וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם, וּבַבְּהֵמָה וּבְכָל-הָאָרֶץ, וּבְכָל-הָרֶמֶשׂ, הָרֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ.

Also

>On the contrary, Augustine says (QQ. 83, qu. 51): "Some consider that these two were mentioned not without reason, namely "image" and "likeness," since, if they meant the same, one would have sufficed."

>I answer that, Likeness is a kind of unity, for oneness in quality causes likeness, as the Philosopher says (Metaph. v, Did. iv, 15). Now, since "one" is a transcendental, it is both common to all, and adapted to each single thing, just as the good and the true. Wherefore, as the good can be compared to each individual thing both as its preamble, and as subsequent to it, as signifying some perfection in it, so also in the same way there exists a kind of comparison between "likeness" and "image." For the good is a preamble to man, inasmuch as man is an individual good; and, again, the good is subsequent to man, inasmuch as we may say of a certain man that he is good, by reason of his perfect virtue. In like manner, likeness may be considered in the light of a preamble to image, inasmuch as it is something more general than image, as we have said above (Article 1): and, again, it may be considered as subsequent to image, inasmuch as it signifies a certain perfection of image. For we say that an image is like or unlike what it represents, according as the representation is perfect or imperfect. Thus likeness may be distinguished from image in two ways: first as its preamble and existing in more things, and in this sense likeness regards things which are more common than the intellectual properties, wherein the image is properly to be seen. In this sense it is stated (QQ. 83, qu. 51) that "the spirit" (namely, the mind) without doubt was made to the image of God. "But the other parts of man," belonging to the soul's inferior faculties, or even to the body, "are in the opinion of some made to God's likeness." In this sense he says (De Quant. Animae ii) that the likeness of God is found in the soul's incorruptibility; for corruptible and incorruptible are differences of universal beings. But likeness may be considered in another way, as signifying the expression and perfection of the image. In this sense Damascene says (De Fide Orth. ii, 12) that the image implies "an intelligent being, endowed with free-will and self-movement, whereas likeness implies a likeness of power, as far as this may be possible in man." In the same sense "likeness" is said to belong to "the love of virtue": for there is no virtue without love of virtue.

>Where does it say that? The verses you posted say man is the likeness of God right now, and has been since he was created

thats not likeness from "image and likeness", that is "be ye perfect"

>Trying to become like God is the sin of Satan and Adam and lands one firmly in hell

Sin of Adam is that he disobeyed God and broke his commandment

As for Satan, Angels and Humans have different purposes and different places. They are created to serve, we are created for theosis.


0fe9fb No.551160

>>551158

>that is "be ye perfect"

*which is "be ye perfect"


b2fdf2 No.554397

think of it this way. if all things are part of a predetermined plan then what is the point of my existence if i am not in control and if i were there would be nothing i could do with it as i am completely incapable of creating anything new, a power which belongs to god. Did god make me to be humiliated and useless


d4e5fb No.554406

>>550439

>they live under a very strict pre-defined reality

Or do they? Calvin is based, but you're holding up his ideas as if they're the only interpretation. Free will could be a thing for all I know.


ecf621 No.554474

>>550427

>but there are not challenges or mysteries

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm sorry, I know you're new, but very few things are as complex as Christianity. There are so many different things to look at. There's the history, rules, and complexities of the Christian faith, of the different denominations, of the people of the Bible, of the historic figures surrounding them from all sorts of different sources, from the Bible itself to secular or other faiths altogether. Then there's apologetics which is insanely complex because the billions of different ways and angles you can go around it. You wanna defend the resurrection of Christ? You gotta basic become an amateur ancient historian. Wanna defend the faith from cults like Jehova's Witnesses who translate the Bible to their perverse Teachings? You're gonna be learning a little Greek and Hebrew. Wanna defend the argument from fine tuning? You're gonna become an amateur astronomer. You wanna defend the argument from morality? You're going to get real good at ethics. The argument from reason? You're going to become a philosopher. Etc.

I haven't found a single thing as deep or complex as the Christian faith.




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