8bf3b3 No.549654
>reading the Liturgy of Hours on my phone while my Romanian Ordodog roommate is minding his own business next to me
f6bdf7 No.549655
What did he mean by this?
452edb No.549668
>>549654
delete this
the schismatics from the east are our brothers
e7b7e8 No.549684
>>549654
don't forget to mention the Council of Florence in 1439
d48d90 No.549734
>>549668
>schismastics from the east
do you mean myaphisites?
jokes aside, neither church denies the other's teachings, and the parallel hierarchies aren't hostile to each other. any hostility among us is idiocy.
452edb No.549737
>>549734
>any hostility among us is idiocy.
naturally
f6bdf7 No.549741
>>549734
Actually I'm 99% sure that there is a split between liberal and trad(itional) catholic members and the only ones we can ally with are the trads.
4d7dfb No.549743
>>549734
>neither church denies the other's teachings
Orthodox perspective: Purgatory is a heresy, papal infallibility is a heresy, Immaculate Conception is a theologoumenon and not a dogma, Beatific Vision is a heresy, filioque is a heresy.
Catholic perspective: Essence-energy distinction is a theologoumenon and not a dogma, rejection of the filioque, of papal infallibility, of the Immaculate Conception, are heretical.
We both deny some of each other's teachings on the level of dogma, with the debated doctrines being papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, the essence-energy distinction, Purgatory, the Beatific Vision, the filioque.
>>549654
>reading the Hours
>not singing them out loud
pleb
d48d90 No.549761
>>549743
>purgatory is heresy
We believe that the soul is cleansed in hell, while they believe the soul is cleansed in a separate part of hell. The distinction is meaningless.
>papal infallibility is heresy
In the ancient church, councils were considered ecumenical when a consensus was reached, and the bishop of rome gave the final word, declaring it to be canon. We have kept the tradition of consensus, while they have kept the tradition of the bishop's final word.
4d7dfb No.549771
>>549761
>We believe that the soul is cleansed in hell, while they believe the soul is cleansed in a separate part of hell. The distinction is meaningless.
They believe Purgatory is a state distinct from Heaven and Hell. This is because they believe Hell to be the full experience of torment, rather than a mere foretaste. Because Hell in itself cannot be of a purgatorial nature in Latin theology, then the doctrine of Purgatory was made, but it is distinct from ours, and we have anathemas against Purgatory.
>In the ancient church, councils were considered ecumenical when a consensus was reached, and the bishop of rome gave the final word, declaring it to be canon. We have kept the tradition of consensus, while they have kept the tradition of the bishop's final word.
The issue of papal supremacy is in itself problematic (that is, the disagreement on whether what sealed things for good was the collegial decision of the bishops, or the Pope giving his final word), but on the matter of dogma, papal infallibility isn't just about how the Pope's primacy is to be exercised, but a doctrine that specifically states that the Pope, when intending to teach something with dogmatic authority, is infallible, because of his authority from Peter, and this is a power that only the Pope can have. We obviously do not agree with that at all.
And even then, it wouldn't be such a major issue if it were not declared a dogma by the Catholics. That is, it is apostolic teaching that is necessary to believe for salvation.
We ourselves have dogma that the Catholics have a hard time accepting as such too (namely, the essence-energy distinction).
52b019 No.549776
>>549654
Rude. I met plenty of "Catholics" who made me ashamed for years to call myself one. And I met awesome Orthodox believers who I befriended. We argue, we debate, but we are never insulting one another.
>>549741
As a Trad-Cat, I agree. Especially at this moment in time, we should stop attacking one another and just build barricades.
1832e1 No.549780
I see there are a couple knowledgeable Christians here. I am not baptised, but I'd like to go at liturgy tomorrow and eat the Eucharist. How wrong is that?
8bf3b3 No.549786
>>549780
What makes you think this is a good idea? The latins forbid it so it must be right?
52b019 No.549787
>>549780
I am not baptised, but I'd like to go at liturgy tomorrow and eat the Eucharist.
Just avoid taking the Eucharist: it would be not for your salvation but your eternal damnation…for it would be sacrilegious to do so.
1832e1 No.549791
>>549786
>What makes you think this is a good idea?
It is the Body of Christ. Is not becoming one with God the purpose of every Christian? If I can receive a little of God as so, surely I am closer to theosis, no?
>>549787
>it would be sacrilegious to do so
By what deliberation? Please go into more detail.
4d7dfb No.549794
>>549791
>>549780
The Eucharist is a burning fire. Those who have the Holy Spirit receive this fire as soft and warm, a light burden, but those who do not have the Holy Spirit receive this fire as one that burns down their soul and leads them to eternal judgment. To paraphrase the apostle Paul, those who consommate the Eucharist unworthily are drinking and eating to their own condemnation, as their blaspheme against the Body and Blood of the Lord.
Although it's the priest's job to protect the chalice (so different priests have different rules on who exactly is allowed to have communion), we generally have the same standard as the Catholics - if you need to confess but haven't confessed, you shouldn't receive the Eucharist. And if you're not baptized and chrismated in the Church, you of course cannot confess.
0f51c8 No.549799
>>549791
God obliterates sin and impurity. Touching the Ark of the Covenant unworthily caused death. Mary was immaculately conceived in order to share flesh with God. Receiving the Eucharist (Good Himself) in a state of mortal sin obliterates parts of your soul. You need to be clean first. It's the difference between a surgical cut and a stab wound. God gets rid of sin one way or another – do you want it removed surgically or by crude, unprofessional amputation?
1832e1 No.549800
>>549794
> those who consommate the Eucharist unworthily are drinking and eating to their own condemnation, as their blaspheme against the Body and Blood of the Lord.
So, if I consume the Eucharist and the result is peace, is that proof I am worthy?
>>549799
Why would God stab me to death?
4d7dfb No.549802
>>549800
>So, if I consume the Eucharist and the result is peace, is that proof I am worthy?
Consumption of the Eucharist unworthily can kill, as several of the Church fathers attest.
While I don't know about that and wouldn't try, I do not think that you can consommate the Eucharist, knowing full well that it is the Body and Blood of Christ and what this implies, and knowing that you do so without having prepared beforehand, and keep a peace of mind.
But that is not what I meant by "peace" anyway - I meant the "place of rest", that is, Heaven, and deification. You cannot grow spiritually toward being perfect like our Father if you blaspheme against the Body and Blood of Christ knowingly.
Of course, the condamnation for unworthy consumption of the Eucharist is Hell - so if you want to test it out, go ahead, but I'd strongly avoid doing so.
0f51c8 No.549804
>>549800
It's more like you running into his knife. It's in God's ontological nature to destroy sin. Asking God not to burn your skin away it's like asking a square to be more circular.
1832e1 No.549805
>>549802
>do so without having prepared beforehand, and keep a peace of mind.
How do you mean? I have fasted and prayed for 3 days, only drinking water in the morning and evening. If I am unworthy and the Eucharist would kill me then and there, I should be glad for it.
1832e1 No.549806
>>549804
I like this explanation very much. Let God destroy my sin then.
f6bdf7 No.549807
>>549806
>Could just confess
>Chooses to go take the Eucharist
D E A D
4d7dfb No.549808
>>549805
The main preparation is to be a baptized and chrismated Orthodox Christian, for one. God is inviting you over at His wedding banquet, and you refuse to wear your wedding garment?
1832e1 No.549811
>>549807
>>549808
Time is running out for me. The catechism can take months. Can drinking the Blood not serve as baptism ?
4d7dfb No.549812
>>549811
Why is time running out for you?
8bf3b3 No.549813
>>549805
>dude if I'm smitten by the Lord for my sin I'm going to be proud of that lmao
61318b No.549814
>>549811
No, baptism must be done by water. The Catholics can make exceptions to hasten the process if you are in dire need, as in threat of death. I cannot speak for the EO. Please reach out.
0f51c8 No.549815
>>549811
Anyone can baptize you at any time. Get it done.
0f51c8 No.549817
>>549805
>I have fasted and prayed for 3 days, only drinking water in the morning and evening
Works cannot remit sins. Only God's sanctifying grace can do that – primarily through Sacraments.
4d7dfb No.549818
>>549811
Also, no, Communion can not replace Baptism. Baptism is there specifically to open us to Communion - to have Communion without being Baptized is to blaspheme God, nothing less. What you will receive will be no less significant, but it will not be good for you at all.
So yeah, why is time running out for you anyway? If you -really- must receive Communion right here and now (because, let's say, you have a risk of imminent death), talk to a priest about it and they'll see what can be done. If you are about to die, they might immediately baptize+chrismate+commune you.
Of course, if you're not in danger of imminent death and you're just lazy to wait to learn the faith properly and become part of the community, don't think to pretend to have terminal stage cancer then pretend it got miraculously healed the day after you receive communion. You can't fool God (and frankly, it would be so stupid that I don't think you could fool anyone anyway).
>>549815
>anyone
Well, from an Orthodox perspective, only a clergyman can administer sacraments.
1832e1 No.549819
>>549812
Because death is at my door. My mind has been trapped in a myst and I have been grappling with suicide for months. I have only recently become lucid again and I don't know how long it will last. I need to anchor my clear mind to something or I am surely done for.
>>549815
What do you mean by "anyone"?
>>549814
I am in threat of death. Always.
1832e1 No.549820
>>549817
> primarily through Sacraments.
But not exclusively, then.
>Works cannot remit sins.
If I had believed I can fashion myself into God by my own powers I would not desire to eat the Eucharist in the first place.
1832e1 No.549821
>>549818
I don't have cancer. I am insane.
61318b No.549822
>>549820
>>549819
Seriously if you're in a lucid state of mind you need to stop posting and get your ass to a priest asap.
1832e1 No.549823
>>549822
It is 22:03 as I write this. Where will I find a priest at this hour ?
8bf3b3 No.549826
>>549819
>suicide
No, you're not about to die, don't take communion and read the Catechisms to begin your new life. Become a catechumen and follow proper procedure.
4d7dfb No.549827
>>549819
>Because death is at my door. My mind has been trapped in a myst and I have been grappling with suicide for months. I have only recently become lucid again and I don't know how long it will last. I need to anchor my clear mind to something or I am surely done for.
To receive the Eucharist unworthily and knowingly so may as well be suicide too, so you're closing doors to yourself.
Tell a priest (whether ORDODX :DDD or CADOLIG :DDD, if you're strongly suicidal I don't really care - I've tried to kill myself before as well, it's a real danger that looms over your head). They might redirect you to a psychiatrist (medication helped me anyway), or tell you to hold on and at least follow a few classes, or they might do something else. All bishops, at least in Orthodoxy, have their own standards for protecting the chalice, so do what they say. But of course, ask them to pray for, that is always a good thing.
Lord have mercy.
>>549823
Priests usually have their phone number up on the parish's website. If it's urgent, you can always try to contact one right now before it's too late (10pm is more tolerable than 3am anyway) and book an appointment with them for tomorrow.
Please read the Scriptures, notably the Gospel. They are holy and communicate grace to the reader, no matter what. God speaks to us through His Scriptures, if you cannot find the strength of will to pray or to keep yourself out of harm's way, at least do this, please.
61318b No.549828
>>549823
>It is 22:03
Ok so are you a Finn or in Eastern Europe or further south?
>>549827
>Priests usually have their phone number up on the parish's website. If it's urgent, you can always try to contact one right now before it's too late (10pm is more tolerable than 3am anyway) and book an appointment with them for tomorrow.
Absolutely do this.
Psalms 34:17 - 34:20 NIV
17 The righteous cry out, and the Lord hears them;
he delivers them from all their troubles.
18 The Lord is close to the brokenhearted
and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
19 The righteous person may have many troubles,
but the Lord delivers him from them all;
20 he protects all his bones,
not one of them will be broken.
1832e1 No.549829
>>549827
>>549828
Ok, I found a phone number at the Contact page. Not sure if it's the Bishop's.
>Eastern Europe
Yes.
1832e1 No.549830
Good bye and thank you all for the answers.
204686 No.549831
>>549819
>My mind has been trapped in a myst
>myst
Thought I recognized your style. No, you're not in any grave danger. There is nothing wrong with you except that you'll post this exact same bs on every religion board (especially /fringe/) and beg for sympathy. When you don't get sympathy, you'll start sperging about "read your Bible! repent!" (or Quran or Rede or Vedas, depending on which board you're on)
Then you'll change IP and start the process all over again. You may have these other kind folks fooled, but not me. Be sure to cry about being "gangstalked" now.
8fbe43 No.549853
>>549668
The Protestants, for their many faults have not aligned themselves with a vicious murderer like Putin.
They are also not currently involved in the massacre of Catholics in Ukraine.
The Orthodox/Copts continue to defile the holiest of places with their senseless and animalistic violence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA2DDihLVVg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn90BNz729k
They're godless. They are not our brothers.
3785a5 No.549856
>>549853
>They are not our brothers.
>They're godless
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0015/_P29.HTM
Remove this flag.
8fbe43 No.549857
>>549856
I ask you again. If we're so damned close, why are they actively supporting the slaughter in the Ukraine? Why have they allied themselves with a man whose favorite pasttime is giving his enemies polonium poisoning?
They can profess all they want, but their faith is not backed by their works.
I'll keep my flag thank you very much.
3785a5 No.549863
>>549857
Catholicism have a lot to be ashamed also but we are talking about religion, not politic, don't make a confusion. Also I don't know what you're talking about, someone will be better than me to talk to you about that.
You must admit, as a catholic, that they are our close brothers and it means a lot of stuff with it no matter the political/historical problems there was and there will be between us.
And don't make a comparative in the matter of religion (orthodoxie, orthopraxie, sacrements,…) and politics between the orthobros and the protestants. The orthodox will always be closer to us
4d7dfb No.549868
>>549853
Where's the Orthodox guy who was irrationally pissed at Catholics for similar reasons? I want to see you two fight it out.
15ec70 No.549903
>>549856
>"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
The contrast with historic Roman Catholicism is massive
0f51c8 No.549916
>>549818
In Catholicism, Baptism and Matrimony do not require a cleric to administer them.
>>549819
>What do you mean by "anyone"?
I mean literally anyone. An atheist can baptize you if he uses proper form and desires to "do what the church does." Steady steam of water on the head and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (as an appeal to good conscience).
4d7dfb No.549920
>>549916
>In Catholicism, Baptism and Matrimony do not require a cleric to administer them.
Yeah, I know. I'm just saying though.
15ec70 No.549923
>>549916
>An atheist can baptize you if he uses proper form and desires to "do what the church does."
Does a priest need to desire to do what the church does? Is this requirement in all sacraments?
c961f7 No.549969
>burning in hell on my phone while my Romanian Ordodog roommate is in heaven next to me
0f51c8 No.549986
c961f7 No.549989
>separating confirmation from baptism
top wew
15ec70 No.549995
>>549986
So why don't Roman Catholics live in terror that maybe they never were baptized because perhaps the priest didn't really intend to do what the church does? Why don't they fear at mass that they might worship mere bread because the priest might either not intend to do what the church does, or his ordination might be invalid because it might not have been done with the intention to do what the church does, or both?
8bf3b3 No.550001
>>549995
>haha gotcha stupid catlicks
0b129a No.550026
>>549995
>So why don't Roman Catholics live in terror that maybe they never were baptized because perhaps the priest didn't really intend to do what the church does?
Because it is axiomatic. The intention is to baptize the individual into Christendom. It's hard to not intend that when you have to say "I baptize you in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit." Also, Catholics can be conditionally baptized as well, if it turns out their priest is a heretic or something.
>Why don't they fear at mass that they might worship mere bread because the priest might either not intend to do what the church does
Transubstantiation is a mystery, not a sacrament. Receiving the Eucharist is the sacrament. The Holy Spirit makes up for any deficiencies with the priest.
>his ordination might be invalid because it might not have been done with the intention to do what the church does, or both?
The form of the ordination rite includes a phrase to the effect of "I intend to ordain you as a priestly minister of Jesus Christ on behalf of His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." The intention is supplied in the form so there is nothing to worry about.
15ec70 No.550036
>>550026
>It's hard to not intend that when you have to say "I baptize you in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit."
>The intention is supplied in the form so there is nothing to worry about.
Intention is in the heart, though. Especially now, it's not hard to imagine a priest who's an unbeliever who just treats his priesthood as a job. Sure, he might say the words, but how do you know that's really his intention?
>Transubstantiation is a mystery, not a sacrament. Receiving the Eucharist is the sacrament
Then what is a sacrament? And why do people say they receive the sacrament when they eat the Eucharist?
>The Holy Spirit makes up for any deficiencies with the priest.
But you said their intention is necessary, if the Holy Spirit makes up for that then isn't intention unnecessary?
8fbe43 No.551101
>>549863
Tell me where the Church is currently waging war on other Christians.
Catholic church is sending medical supplies, they're blessing the very guns used for the slaughter of your brothers.
You can't handwave that away as politics.
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/ukraine.christians.threatened.with.firing.squads.and.pastors.held.hostage/41224.htm
https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/eugenia-kuznetsova/religious-persecution-in-eastern-ukraine
https://jamestown.org/program/moscow-patriarch-says-ukrainian-faithful-no-longer-obligated-to-obey-kyiv/#.Vcxl9VNVikq
>But now Moscow Patriarch Kirill has left Kyiv with little choice by officially declaring (on May 24) that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate is no longer obligated to obey the “godless” Ukrainian authorities
He's a goddamned monster he's complicit in the bloodshed, and I won't have him, or any who follow him as my "brother".
https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/eugenia-kuznetsova/religious-persecution-in-eastern-ukraine
>These days, while the Kiev Patriarchate, Catholic Church, Protestants and other confessions gather humanitarian aid and donations for the Ukrainian army and soldiers’ families, the official position of the Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine remains pro-Russian.
>A recent incident in parliament is revealing. Back in May 2015, when President Petro Poroshenko asked the Ukrainian parliament to join him in honouring fallen soldiers, everyone stood up save for three invited guests: priests of the Moscow Patriarchate.
>11 But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.
Why are ruthless killers any different, or better than the people above that? Murder is not a "political difference". Regardless of our similarities in tradition, this puts them light years away from us.
ead9a8 No.551102
>>549743
>Beatific Vision is a heresy
What? Why?
Isnt this sort of part of "theosis" and "become god" in different words? care to elaborate?
b28b34 No.551108
>>551102
We will not experience the fullness of God until the Resurrection. Paradise is for now only a foretaste of what is to come, because the souls are not reunited to the bodies yet, and so the persons of the saints are not whole and can not wholly appreciate God yet. They are divinized, but they can not appreciate the fullness of God until they are whole, and besides, the doctrine of the Beatific Vision claims that we will see God's essence, which is antithetical to theosis (but that's an issue for another day).
252a67 No.551131
>on my phone
>Addressing the Summorum Pontificum conference in Rome on Thursday, Sarah said, that "electronic devices must be turned off or left behind at home when we come to worship God."
>According to the Cardinal the usage of such means desacralizes prayer, "These apparatuses are not instruments consecrated and reserved to God, but we use them for God and also for profane things.”
c961f7 No.551134
>>551102
larper detected
research the "intermediate state of the soul"
c961f7 No.551135
>>551131
this tbh
when i used to be prot people would just come to church and play on their phone the whole time. why even bother if you don't give a shit anyway
a85a28 No.551137
>>549995
Moral certitude is sufficient
6fdb20 No.551141
>>549853
Wait a minute
>Fighting inside the church
What is the proper response to this? When Jesus saw greed in the church he raised commotion, but raising commotion here is bad.
8fbe43 No.551170
>>551141
The proper response is to use common sense
Do you really believe that there's an equivalent to beating people actively turning the holy sites into shops, and the pissing matches the Orthodox engage in?
Franciscans were attacked by these vile animals for having a door open in their chapel.
Would Jesus curb stomp somebody for that?
6fdb20 No.551171
>>551170
I'm looking for a legitimate response and you're kind of a redditor sperg, sorry.
8fbe43 No.551172
>>551171
>legitimate response.
Read then, you fool.
You're the one making false comparisons here.
ead9a8 No.551173
>>551108
thanks for explaining
>>551134
I am orthodox since birth and you are bearing false witness. I just didnt fully understood catholic beatific vision.
You dont need to be a rude cretin. wash your mouth/hands before speaking/posting
c961f7 No.551180