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File: 77b239403a51fd4⋯.jpg (53.58 KB, 352x441, 352:441, GW352H441.jpg)

7d1e31 No.542559

I am looking for quotes from the early church fathers regarding papal infallibility. I find tons of quotes regarding supremacy/primacy, but I can't find a single quote regarding infallibility. Prove to me it has been the church's belief from the beginning.

436acd No.542562

i'll be right here to refute them by the way :3


481812 No.542563

>>542559

Nobody has ever said anything about it being Church dogma since the beginning. You're requesting something that doesn't exist.


f852c4 No.542564

>>542563

>the unchanging church of God changed


481812 No.542565

>>542564

Nobody ever said that the Church was unchanging. Where are you people getting this stuff?


436acd No.542566

>>542563

>it hasn't always been dogma

What do you think "dogma" is?

>>542565

>nobody ever said that the Church was unchanging

Dogma can be expressed with more accuracy when the received tradition ends up being interpreted wrong and giving rise to heresies, but it does not mean the Church is not unchanging - it only means the Church defines her received tradition better as it gets challenged by heresies. If you can say that dogma gets outright added to the Church, or that the Church hasn't always believed the same thing, then I'm pretty sure this is utter blasphemy even for Catholics…


7d1e31 No.542569

>>542565

If the church can change its beliefs then it cannot claim to be the bearer of truth.


481812 No.542571

>>542566

Papal infallibility wasn't codified into official Church dogma until the First Ecumenical Council of the Vatican of 1869–1870, where it was officially defined. If you want to find its roots, you'll have to go back to Thomas Aquinas and Pope Gregory VII.

>>542569

The Church changes just as everything does. Or do you think it's somehow blasphemy that the Church started using electric lights? You're confusing Church politics with Church beliefs. They're not the same thing.


7d1e31 No.542575

>>542571

Papal infallibility is not politics, it is a belief. If the apostles didn't believe in Peter's infallibility, then neither should we.


436acd No.542576

>>542571

>Papal infallibility wasn't codified into official Church dogma until the First Ecumenical Council of the Vatican of 1869–1870, where it was officially defined. If you want to find its roots, you'll have to go back to Thomas Aquinas and Pope Gregory VII.

Yes, I know that it hadn't been formally codified until Vatican I, but that doesn't mean it was "added" in the list of dogmas, or something. Dogma is what is necessary to believe for salvation. You can't say you belong to the Church, and at the same time that it has added dogma that wasn't present before. It only formally codified it, when faced with heretical understanding of the received tradition.

>The Church changes just as everything does. Or do you think it's somehow blasphemy that the Church started using electric lights? You're confusing Church politics with Church beliefs. They're not the same thing.

Church politics change, but Church beliefs do not. Everything that is dogma -is- core belief of the Church, necessary for salvation. Even if it is politics that pushed a certain belief into being codified formally, it does not mean that it wasn't there from day 1.

Thomas Aquinas is not an early Church Father. Neither is Pope Gregory VII.

You're honestly not really answering the OP's questions here… I'm tempted to do it myself, but I'm Orthodox so that would be very rude of me to do. But I would like to point out that the Papacy began to see itself as the sole guardian of orthodoxy with one of the Popes prior to St. Leo, although I forgot who because I read it a while ago and don't have the book with me right now.


af48ca No.542579

File: 62c843712853bfb⋯.jpg (203.06 KB, 762x960, 127:160, 10230.jpg)

Proof of papal infallibility from Holy Scripture

From Holy Scripture, as already stated, the special proof of the pope's infallibility is, if anything, stronger and clearer than the general proof of the infallibility of the Church as a whole, just as the proof of his primacy is stronger and clearer than any proof that can be advanced independently for the Apostolic authority of the episcopate.

Matthew 16:18

"Thou art Peter (Kepha)", said Christ, "and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Various attempts have been made by opponents of the papal claims to get rid of the only obvious and natural meaning of these words, according to which Peter is to be the rock-foundation of the Church, and the source of its indefectibility against the gates of hell. It has been suggested, for example, that "this rock" is Christ Himself or that it is Peter's faith (typifying the faith of future believers), not his person and office, on which the Church is to be built. But these and similar interpretations simply destroy the logical coherency of Christ's statement and are excluded by the Greek and Latin texts, in which a kind of play upon the words Petros (Petrus) and petra is clearly intended, and still more forcibly by the original Aramaic which Christ spoke, and in which the same word Kêpha must have been used in both clauses. And granting, as the best modern non-Catholic commentators grant, that this text of St. Matthew contains the promise that St. Peter was to be the rock-foundation of the Church, it is impossible to deny that Peter's successors in the primacy are heirs to this promise — unless, indeed, one is willing to admit the principle, which would be altogether subversive of the hierarchial system, that the authority bestowed by Christ on the Apostles was not intended to be transmitted to their successors, and to abide in the Church permanently. Peter's headship was as much emphasized by Christ Himself, and was as clearly recognized in the infant Church, as was the enduring authority of the episcopal body; and it is a puzzle which the Catholic finds it hard to solve, how those who deny that the supreme authority of Peter's successor is an essential factor in the constitution of the Church can consistently maintain the Divine authority of the episcopate. Now, as we have already seen, doctrinal indefectibility is certainly implied in Christ's promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church, and cannot be effectively secured without doctrinal infallibility; so that if Christ's promise means anything — if Peter's successor is in any true sense the foundation and source of the Church's indefectibility — he must by virtue of this office be also an organ of ecclesiastical infallibility. The metaphor used clearly implies that it was the rock-foundation which was to give stability to the superstructure, not the superstructure to the rock.

Nor can it be said that this argument fails by proving too much — by proving, that is, that the pope should be impeccable, or at least that he should be a saint, since, if the Church must be holy in order to overcome the gates of hell, the example and inspiration of holiness ought to be given by him who is the visible foundation of the Church's indefectibility. From the very nature of the case a distinction must be made between sanctity or impeccability, and infallible doctrinal authority. Personal sanctity is essentially incommunicable as between men, and cannot affect others except in fallible and indirect ways, as by prayer or example; but doctrinal teaching which is accepted as infallible is capable of securing that certainty and consequent unity of Faith by which, as well as by other bonds, the members of Christ's visible Church were to be "compacted and fitly joined together" (Ephesians 4:16). It is true, of course, that infallible teaching, especially on moral questions, helps to promote sanctity among those who accept, but no one will seriously suggest that, if Christ had made the pope impeccable as well as infallible, He would thereby have provided for the personal sanctity of individual believers any more efficiently than, on Catholic principles, He has actually done.

Luke 22:31-32

Here Christ says to St. Peter and to his successors in the primacy: "Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren." This special prayer of Christ was for Peter alone in his capacity as head of the Church, as is clear from the text and context; and since we cannot doubt the efficacy of Christ's prayer, it followed that to St. Peter and his successors the office was personally committed of authoritatively confirming the brethren — other bishops, and believers generally — in the faith; and this implies infallibility.


af48ca No.542580

File: 2bfe7bf42c97c35⋯.jpg (93.68 KB, 768x960, 4:5, 17523203_10155241339749204….jpg)

John 21:15-17

Here we have the record of Christ's thrice-repeated demand for a confession of Peter's love and the thrice-repeated commission to feed the lambs and the sheep:

>When therefore they had dined, Jesus said to Simon (Peter): Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these? He said to him: Yes, Lord, you know that I love you. He said to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him again: Simon, son of John, do you love me? He said to him: Yes, Lord, you know that I love you. He said to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Do you love me? And he said to him: Lord, you know all things: you know that I love you. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Here the complete and supreme pastoral charge of the whole of Christ's flock — sheep as well as lambs — is given to St. Peter and his successors, and in this is undoubtedly comprised supreme doctrinal authority. But, as we have already seen, doctrinal authority in the Church cannot be really effective in securing the unity of faith intended by Christ, unless in the last resort it is infallible. It is futile to contend, as non Catholics have often done, that this passage is merely a record of Peter's restoration to his personal share in the collective Apostolic authority, which he had forfeited by his triple denial. It is quite probable that the reason why Christ demanded the triple confession of love was as a set-off to the triple denial; but if Christ's words in this and in the other passages quoted mean anything, and if they are to be understood in the same obvious and natural way in which defenders of the Divine authority of the episcopate understand the words elsewhere addressed to the Apostles collectively, there is no denying that the Petrine and papal claims are more clearly supported by the Gospels than are those of a monarchical episcopate. It is equally futile to contend that these promises were made, and this power given, to Peter merely as the representative of the Apostolic college: in the texts of the Gospel, Peter is individually singled out and addressed with particular emphasis, so that, unless by denying with the rationalist the genuineness of Christ's words, there is no logical escape from the Catholic position. Furthermore, it is clear from such evidence as the Acts of the Apostles supply, that Peter's supremacy was recognized in the infant Church (see PRIMACY) and if this supremacy was intended to be efficacious for the purpose for which it was instituted, it must have included the prerogative of doctrinal infallibility.

A lot more information, including proof from tradition, can be found here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB


af48ca No.542584

File: 67cd6be418e5816⋯.jpg (80.76 KB, 564x846, 2:3, 65877.jpg)

Proof of papal infallibility from Tradition

One need not expect to find in the early centuries a formal and explicit recognition throughout the Church either of the primacy or of the infallibility of the pope in the terms in which these doctrines are defined by the Vatican Council. But the fact cannot be denied that from the beginning there was a widespread acknowledgment by other churches of some kind of supreme authority in the Roman pontiff in regard not only to disciplinary but also to doctrinal affairs. This is clear for example, from:

- Clement's Letter to the Corinthians at the end of the first century, (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm)

- the way in which, shortly afterwards, Ignatius of Antioch addresses the Roman Church; (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm)

- the conduct of Pope Victor in the latter half of the second century, in connection with the paschal controversy;

- the teaching of St. Irenaeus, who lays it down as a practical rule that conformity with Rome is a sufficient proof of Apostolicity of doctrine against the heretics (Adv. Haer., III, iii);

- the correspondence between Pope Dionysius and his namesake at Alexandria in the second half of the third century;

Even heretics recognized something special in the doctrinal authority of the pope, and some of them, like Marcion in the second century and Pelagius and Caelestius in the first quarter of the fifth, appealed to Rome in the hope of obtaining a reversal of their condemnation by provincial bishops or synods. And in the age of the councils, from Nicaea onwards, there is a sufficiently explicit and formal acknowledgment of the doctrinal supremacy of the Bishop of Rome.

- St. Augustine, for example, voices the prevailing Catholic sentiment when in reference to the Pelagian affair he declares, in a sermon delivered at Carthage after the receipt of Pope Innocent's letter, confirming the decrees of the Council of Carthage: "Rome's reply has come: the case is closed" (Inde etiam rescripta venerunt: causa finita est. Serm. 131, c.x);

- and again when in reference to the same subject he insists that "all doubt bas been removed by the letter of Pope Innocent of blessed memory" (C. Duas Epp. Pelag., II, iii, 5).


ccaa5f No.542586

>something wasn't dogma till the 19th century

>expecting quotes from the Church Fathers about it

anon i…


af48ca No.542589

File: 679df2dce546ec6⋯.jpg (521.8 KB, 1280x960, 4:3, 679df2dce546ec698fa07d8bef….jpg)

And what is still more important, is the explicit recognition in formal terms, by councils which are admitted to be ecumenical, of the finality, and by implication the infallibility of papal teaching.

- Thus the Fathers of Ephesus (431) declare that they "are compelled" to condemn the heresy of Nestorius "by the sacred canons and by the letter of our holy father and co-minister, Celestine the Bishop of Rome."

- Twenty years later (451) the Fathers of Chalcedon, after hearing Leo's letter read, make themselves responsible for the statement: "so do we all believe . . . Peter has spoken through Leo."

- More than two centuries later, at the Third Council of Constantinople (680-681), the same formula is repeated: "Peter has spoken through Agatho."

- After the lapse of still two other centuries, and shortly before the Photian schism, the profession of faith drawn up by Pope Hormisdas was accepted by the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870), and in this profession, it is stated that, by virtue of Christ's promise: "Thou art Peter, etc."; "the Catholic religion is preserved inviolable in the Apostolic See."

- Finally the reunion Council of Florence (1438-1445), repeating what had been substantially contained in the profession of faith of Michael Palaeologus approved by the Second Council of Lyons (1274), defined "that the holy Apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world; and that the Roman pontiff himself is the successor of the blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles and the true Vicar of Christ, and the head of the whole Church, and the father and teacher of all Christians, and that to him in blessed Peter the full power of feeding, ruling and governing the universal Church was given by our Lord Jesus Christ, and this is also recognized in the acts of the ecumenical council and in the sacred canons (quemadmodum etiam . . . continetur.

Thus it is clear that the Vatican Council introduced no new doctrine when it defined the infallibility of the pope, but merely re-asserted what had been implicitly admitted and acted upon from the beginning and had even been explicitly proclaimed and in equivalent terms by more than one of the early ecumenical councils. Until the Photian Schism in the East and the Gallican movement in the West there was no formal denial of papal supremacy, or of papal infallibility as an adjunct of supreme doctrinal authority, while the instances of their formal acknowledgment that have been referred to in the early centuries are but a few out of the multitude that might be quoted.

Full links can be found here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB'


436acd No.542594

>>542579

>Various attempts have been made by opponents of the papal claims to get rid of the only obvious and natural meaning of these words, according to which Peter is to be the rock-foundation of the Church, and the source of its indefectibility against the gates of hell. It has been suggested, for example, that "this rock" is Christ Himself or that it is Peter's faith (typifying the faith of future believers), not his person and office, on which the Church is to be built. But these and similar interpretations simply destroy the logical coherency of Christ's statement and are excluded by the Greek and Latin texts, in which a kind of play upon the words Petros (Petrus) and petra is clearly intended, and still more forcibly by the original Aramaic which Christ spoke, and in which the same word Kêpha must have been used in both clauses.

The Fathers have had all three interpretations: Jesus Christ is the Rock on Which the Church is built, and so it cannot collapse. Peter is the rock on which the episcopacy is built, so that there is unity in love. Peter's faith is the rock on which the Church is built, a foundation that is repeated and strenghtened everytime this confession of faith is repeated.

>so that if Christ's promise means anything — if Peter's successor is in any true sense the foundation and source of the Church's indefectibility — he must by virtue of this office be also an organ of ecclesiastical infallibility

Okay, but who is "Peter's successor"? The Pope is Peter's successor "in chief", so to speak, but the see of Antioch was also founded by Peter, and in fact, St. Cyprian of Carthage understood the entire episcopacy to inherit from Peter.

>Here Christ says to St. Peter and to his successors in the primacy: "Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren." This special prayer of Christ was for Peter alone in his capacity as head of the Church, as is clear from the text and context; and since we cannot doubt the efficacy of Christ's prayer, it followed that to St. Peter and his successors the office was personally committed of authoritatively confirming the brethren — other bishops, and believers generally — in the faith; and this implies infallibility.

No, what this implies is that Peter's faith, even if it fails, will be restored so that he can strengthen his brothers of the faith in unity. It does not mean the Church is where Peter is, it means that Peter has inherited the special job of being the rock of unity of the episcopacy, and naturally this job is derivated to the Pope - but what happens if the Pope does not fulfill this job? You say he intrinsically must fulfill this job at all times, rather than what we say - that this job will ultimately be fulfilled. Why?

>>542580

>Here the complete and supreme pastoral charge of the whole of Christ's flock — sheep as well as lambs — is given to St. Peter and his successors, and in this is undoubtedly comprised supreme doctrinal authority.

Pretty sure there's a missing step between the premise and the conclusion…

> Furthermore, it is clear from such evidence as the Acts of the Apostles supply, that Peter's supremacy was recognized in the infant Church

So clear that Paul actively fought against Peter's Judaizing even when the rest of the Church agreed with Peter, and it is Paul who ended up changing the mind of Peter.

>>542584

These documents show primacy, with the Pope being an arbiter and having extraordinary power when a controversy shakes the whole Church. Supremacy means Rome is the Mother Church and the Pope is the supreme bishop, an issue not addressed here.

But let me point out that St. Irenaeus does not say what you think he says, neither does St. Augustine.

I'm going to bed since I need to go to Church later, so I'll (maybe) give a more detailed response later. But this is very poor so fact, which is disappointing from the Catholic Encyclopedia. There are many statements by Popes, who themselves are Orthodox saints, that suggest supremacy and infallibility, you could've started there.

Also, don't be a lazy butt who copy-pastes other people's articles.


9a0d46 No.542623

File: 08ea8e358dd4270⋯.jpg (200.62 KB, 1200x1760, 15:22, Just_0ca3a7_6420074.jpg)

>>542565

It's this mentality why I can't take Ortholicism seriously.

>We're apostolic in everything

>So what if we believe and practice things differently from the apostles?

Truly amazing.


66f08e No.542669

>>542594

>Okay, but who is "Peter's successor"?

I have an even more important and serious question.

Why does Peter need a successor?


a4c6b8 No.542697

>>542669

Why wouldn't he? The earliest Church fathers establish that the line of apostolic succession was well established with the apostles themselves, what makes you think they wouldn't tend to their own church as Christ commanded?


ab22b0 No.542701

>>542623

>Catholic says something dumb

>Condemn "Ortholicism"

?

>>542584

>- St. Augustine, for example, voices the prevailing Catholic sentiment when in reference to the Pelagian affair he declares, in a sermon delivered at Carthage after the receipt of Pope Innocent's letter, confirming the decrees of the Council of Carthage: "Rome's reply has come: the case is closed" (Inde etiam rescripta venerunt: causa finita est. Serm. 131, c.x);

I want a link to know you're not up to your normal shenanigans


66f08e No.542702

>>542697

He is still serving in his capacity as Apostle. So my question remains.


aa9086 No.542888

>>542669

Whether or not a successor is "needed" is a funny way of putting it. Apostolic succession is the very basis of the Church and has been from its founding. All authority is derived from that vested by God directly in his apostles and maintained by their legitimately ordained successors (i.e. bishops). St Peter in particular was chief among the apostles so his successors as the bishop of Rome naturally head the Church.


a4c6b8 No.542943

>>542702

Rock of the Church. If Christ had meant to say "and you are Peter, an independent fundamental baptist pastor", then it'd be clear that Christ did not mean to establish an organization.


3c79a3 No.542973

>>542623

He has a heretical understanding of what a dogma is in both the Catholic and, I believe, in the Orthodox Church.


dd4625 No.542984

Does anybody have any pdfs to share on the subject, or perhaps more broadly on the doctrine of papal supremacy? I'm very interested in hearing the best arguments that the Orthodox and Catholic churches have on the subject. I want to pick up "The Papacy and the Orthodox: Sources and History of a Debate" but I'm a poorfag.


c12f31 No.542987

>>542623

>taking some retard on an image board as the representative of Catholicism even though he is wrong

Intellectual dishonesty and laziness, which are both sins. Sort yourself out.


de6b6a No.543008

Papal infallibility is heresy, our High Priest and His Holy Bible is the only inerrant word, we are all called to be brothers, equal with each other under the Father


ab22b0 No.543010

File: 916972a9b72e918⋯.png (236.36 KB, 630x473, 630:473, ClipboardImage.png)

>>542584

>- St. Augustine, for example, voices the prevailing Catholic sentiment when in reference to the Pelagian affair he declares, in a sermon delivered at Carthage after the receipt of Pope Innocent's letter, confirming the decrees of the Council of Carthage: "Rome's reply has come: the case is closed" (Inde etiam rescripta venerunt: causa finita est. Serm. 131, c.x);

Still waiting for this to be proven as not shenanigans


5cfcb8 No.543057

>>543010

10. What then was said of the Jews, the same altogether do we see in these men now. "They have a zeal of God: I hear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."What is, "not according to knowledge"? "For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and wishing to establish their own, they have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."My Brethren, share with me in my sorrow. When you find such as these, do not hide them; be there no such misdirected mercy in you; by all means, when ye find such, hide them not. Convince the gainsayers, and those who resist, bring to us. For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue; would that their error may sometime be brought to an issue too! Therefore do we advise that they may take heed, we teach that they may be instructed, we pray that they may be changed. Let us turn to the Lord, etc.

For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue

What we see here is as fallows:

>Two councils discussed issue

>They sent it to Rome

>Rome answered

>Matter was setted

St. Augustine does seem to be saying that this issue has been brought to Rome, Rome has responded and the issue is decided upon. The next line seems to relate some frustration in this sermon, "would that their error may sometime brought to an issue too!" On the one hand St. Augustine has admitted to and yielded to the authority of Rome, since the "causa finita est." On the other hand, St. Augustine takes a stand that he wishes the error would be "finita" (or "brought to an issue") and we can assume that this "error" is that of Pelagius and Caelestius so that the Pope would reverse his stand that they are truly not "orthodox and Catholic" (which Pope Zosimus later does make such a pronouncement. Clearly St. Augustine respects the authority and decision of the Pope and hopes the Pope will take up the issue of Pelagius' true heterodoxical/heretical position.

Roma locuta est, causa finita est which of course is nice paraphrasing, easy to remember plus gotta love Latin poetry


ab22b0 No.543065

File: aff777a008e3bf0⋯.png (348.48 KB, 500x375, 4:3, ClipboardImage.png)

>>543057

>For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue;

There it is

I'll have infinitely more respect when we get to the level of quoting honestly in the copy pastes instead of pulling shenanigans over and over every time we have these threads. Thanks for providing the actual content and giving your exegesis


5cfcb8 No.543069

>>543065

Thanks, but it's not mine. It's response for James White objections from ten years ago.




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