/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Cherubic Hymn- A. Kastorsky (English)

>>541973

MOAR

Russian Orthodox Church worships the Tsars as saints. That's heretical.

>>542091

big if true

is this another "I hate Catholics but I want to be a Catholic so Orthodox nao" protestant?

>>542091

>>542131

No, only the last romanovs and their entourage(which include a roman catholic) got canonized for being faithful believers that got assasinated by commies.

>>542146

yes

baptists get indoctrinated against catholicism at an early age, so even for a protestant sect I think they are spiritually dangerous

>>542163

Correction: the catholic servant wasnt canonized, and they were recognized as passion-bearers, not martyrs, which is a pretty big distinction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_bearer

>>541973

>>541979

Your church is beautiful and decked with fine ornaments. The singing is beautiful. The architecture is dignified. But your church is spiritually dead and only unsaved people would ever be drawn to it.

Bump

"Woke Protestant" is resisting Orthodoxy.

"If you drink enough, you can forget anything eventually."

https://youtu.be/62s3FinAoC0

>>542170

>unsaved people are drawn to Christ's church

Woah, thanks captain obvious.

Eastern Orthodoxy does not teach the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone.

>>542976

>people make up doctrine 500 years ago

>it's biblical!

>>542989

>the Bible is 500 years old

>>542953

>baptists

>saved

lmao

>>543048

>Sola fide is more than 500 years old

>Sola fide is in bible outside of "videtis quoniam ex operibus iustificatur homo et non ex fide tantum"

>>543060

>videtis quoniam ex operibus iustificatur homo et non ex fide tantum

Sola fides iustificat, sed non fides quae est sola.

>>542976

https://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/salvation-is-indeed-by-grace

So we, as Orthodox Christians, affirm as clearly and unambiguously as any Lutheran, for example, that “salvation is by grace” and not by our works. Unlike medieval Catholicism, Orthodoxy does not hold that a person can build up a “treasury of merits” that will count in our favor at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What will matter then is our having surrendered our sin to God through confession, and our gestures of love (Mt. 25), together with the unshakable conviction that “Jesus Christ is Lord,” and the unique Way to eternal life.

>>543591

The more orthodox write, the more they prove they are closet protestants, and their minds are the product of the same propaganda.

>>543757

What he linked is not very Protestant

>>543591

Luther would identify that entire thing as the heresy he struggled against. We do not believe that what "will matter then is our having surrendered our sin to God through confession, and our gestures of love (Mt. 25), together with the unshakable conviction that 'Jesus Christ is Lord,' and the unique Way to eternal life." We believe this is specifically what does not matter. All that matters is the work of Christ, we do not factor into it at any point.

Our position is not that salvation is purely by grace. Our position is that salvation is merely by grace.

>>543767

You don't participate in salvation, youre just a puppet along for the ride ala Calvinism?

>>543767

>All that matters is the work of Christ, we do not factor into it at any point.

So you mean that we don't need to have faith in Him, to be united to Him? That as long as He did what He did, we're saved? Sweet! Universal salvation!

>>543779

You don't control your salvation

>>543782

>So you mean that we don't need to have faith in Him, to be united to Him?

We do, but that isn't a condition to be saved. It's not something we must fulfill on our side, it is the God-given means of salvation which He creates and He performs.

>>544036

Whoever taught you Christianity is deluding you.

>>544045

Why do you believe Paul of Tarsus is deluding me?

>>543053

>Baptists

>saved

lmao

>>544091

Whoever taught you Paul's epistles is deluding you. Flee your sect.

>>544036

>We do, but that isn't a condition to be saved. It's not something we must fulfill on our side, it is the God-given means of salvation which He creates and He performs.

I wouldn't disagree with you that both our faith and our works are not truly ours, but rather God's working through us. But the relevant part is "through us" - we have the free will to embrace or reject this gift of grace. If we could not, and God essentially forced us to be saved or to be condemned, then He would not be love, and the Incarnation would not tell us something theologically about God, and furthermore, no one could be called a fellow worker of God, even though St Paul uses this expression to refer to, at the very least, deacons.

>>544881

>If we could not, and God essentially forced us to be saved or to be condemned

God forces no one to be anything. He sets some men free, for which they are immensely grateful, and He leaves the rest to their slavery to sin, for which they are justly punished.

>then He would not be love

The very being of God is contingent on the autonomy of His creatures? Really??

>and the Incarnation would not tell us something theologically about God

It tells us that God is not what the Gnostics thought He was, He is not a sadistic tyrant that enjoys the suffering of His creatures, it proves that He is good, and He loves us.

>and furthermore, no one could be called a fellow worker of God, even though St Paul uses this expression to refer to, at the very least, deacons

Context is important. Clerics are fellow workers with God in the sense of leading God's people. This is why Paul uses the language of co-workers, it is metaphorical, they are fellow construction workers in the work of building God's building, which is the Christian people.

>>544885

>God forces no one to be anything. He sets some men free, for which they are immensely grateful, and He leaves the rest to their slavery to sin, for which they are justly punished.

But, are we given the choice by God to accept His gift of salvation?

>The very being of God is contingent on the autonomy of His creatures? Really??

Love is not forceful, but a mutual relationship of self-giving.

>Context is important. Clerics are fellow workers with God in the sense of leading God's people. This is why Paul uses the language of co-workers, it is metaphorical, they are fellow construction workers in the work of building God's building, which is the Christian people.

But if God alone matters, and the free will of individuals doesn't, then clerics do not lead God's people. God leads God's people, including clerics.

>>544888

>But, are we given the choice by God to accept His gift of salvation?

Every man is given the freedom to embrace God or reject Him. But unless a man is born again, he will be so consumed with his hatred of God that he absolutely will reject Him. It is this slavery from which God sets the saints free.

>But if God alone matters, and the free will of individuals doesn't, then clerics do not lead God's people. God leads God's people, including clerics.

If a king rules absolutely, does he not appoint governors? Does he not have ministers? Even the sun king did not rule alone. The alternative to this is direct divine rule, which of course is in the future, but this way He remains the unseen God, so He is approached only by faith, not from knowledge.

>>544890

>Every man is given the freedom to embrace God or reject Him.

So, then, the individual does matter. We, individually, can make the choice to embrace or reject God's offer of salvation. Right?

>But unless a man is born again, he will be so consumed with his hatred of God that he absolutely will reject Him.

Hm… Technically correct, but let me ask, does this mean that man, even if not born again, is unable to at least seek God? I do not say "love" God, as, as you said, it is loving God that saves us, and so those who are not walking down the path of salvation evidently cannot be said to love God. But can they be said to thirst after this divine love that they lack?

>It is this slavery from which God sets the saints free.

I don't know what Reformed tradition says about this, but it is very much clear in Orthodoxy and in all the earliest Church documents we have that, primarily, God saved us from death, itself the result of sin, and so God saved us from sin. I guess what you said is correct, in that it is our slavery to sinfulness that makes us despise God, but let us not forget that most importantly, our slavery to sinfulness is slavery to death.

>If a king rules absolutely, does he not appoint governors? Does he not have ministers? Even the sun king did not rule alone. The alternative to this is direct divine rule, which of course is in the future, but this way He remains the unseen God, so He is approached only by faith, not from knowledge.

God is not merely a king, He is God. If our input absolutely has no weight for God, then 1) He does not need ministers at all, and 2) there is no reason that all should not be saved, as the salvation of all is what God wills.

>>544891

People are free to do what they wish. What they wish is evil.

>>544893

>Right?

Yes.

>does this mean that man, even if not born again, is unable to at least seek God?

They have the ability, what they lack is the desire. They might wish to escape divine wrath, but they have no desire to abandon their sins. They love death.

>God saved us from death, itself the result of sin, and so God saved us from sin

We agree, in that slavery to sin is itself spiritual death. When Man died, his death was enslavement.

>If our input absolutely has no weight for God

Our input has no weight in that it does not move His eternal will. Our actions are themselves derivative, so by definition God cannot make His decree based on our actions because until His decree is made our actions do not exist.

>He does not need ministers at all

He has absolutely no need of ministers whatsoever. He is not dependent on them for anything at all. They are a means to an end.

>there is no reason that all should not be saved, as the salvation of all is what God wills

What God wills is His own glory. The salvation (and damnation) of men is merely a means to that end.

>>54491

Not how freewill works, not what God gave us, not true. that's how determined-to-always-choose-evil works. Not real freewill.

Whoever taught you these doctrines is deluding you. Flee from their lies.