03e403 No.538981
It seems wrong to kill someone because they are a heretic; sounds like a violation of a person’s free will and human rights to me.
I’m interested in knowing how the execution of heretics is compatible with free will.
39fdff No.538985
>>538981
Nobody execute heretics. Did you fall asleep in the 12th century and just wake up?
d30463 No.538987
>>538981
I posted this in the thread about pope Francis and the death penalty.
03e403 No.538991
>>538987
Geez, what a terrible man. Instead of letting people practice religious liberty, he simply wants to kill people because they disagree with him and his Church.
44a1b5 No.538995
>>538987
I wish the Inquisition was still around tbh.
d30463 No.538998
bc64df No.539011
>>538987
disgusting.
i'm glad your sect doesn't have the clout it used to have.
d30463 No.539014
>>539011
>>538991
Either we get rid of the heretics or they get rid of us (along with deceiving many souls).
5838b9 No.539016
Seems to me that when someone embraces heresy, he is damning himself, but if that ends there then there is no need for execution.
However if someone also teaches heresy, he is literally dragging other people to hell with him, so it seems justified to stop him, even by death penalty if necessary.
5838b9 No.539018
Also I don't understand how is this issue connected with free will.
0fcb5a No.539026
>>539016
this. also if the heretic admits his wrongdoings and is convinced to never do it again then there is no point in killing him
03e403 No.539050
>>539016
>However if someone also teaches heresy, he is literally dragging other people to hell with him
How? A person has to accept the heresy that is being presented to them. You can’t force a change of mind.
>>539018
Well, if you’re being genuine, you must be one dense mitherfucker if you can’t grasp such a simple concept. If you’re threatening someone to convert with physical harm or death, the person is obviously not converting because he is convinced of the arguments. He is “converting” in order to save his hide. By your logic, I can hold a woman at gun point, and tell her to marry me, or I will blow her head off. If she agrees to marry me, she’s doing it to not be killed, you fucking idiot.
It’s possible that you’re simply pretending to not understand out of a need to be contentious. Either way, physical violence is incompatible with free will.
(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST) 377c42 No.539052
>Catholics reveal themselves to be bloodthirsty savages yet again
No surprises there.
03e403 No.539059
>>539014
Isn’t a heretic self condemned? Even if a person encounters a heretic, they supposedly have the free will to disagree with the heretic. If you say that heresy is the murder of the soul, then why is the deceived soul held accountable?
I wish you Catholics would make up your minds already. Do we have free will or not? Or is that just lip service that you guys give to make your tyrannical religion seem more palatable and benevolent?
bc64df No.539060
>>539050
you're right about everything else, but you're using free-will to mean something it doesn't.
external things can influence your choices and you'd still have free will (example: the threat of HELLFIRE AND DAMNATION)
03e403 No.539064
>>539060
So I should be able to get a wife by giving her an ultimatum: marry me or die. That’s basically what you are proposing. You are a despicable wretch if you honestly believe what you say.
03e403 No.539066
>>539060
>external things can influence your choices
That’s not what I said, dumbass. What I said was that external threats forces a personal to act in a way that is contrary to what they truly desire. Once that threat is gone, the motive for continuing the behavior is gone. That’s not a genuine choice. A real choice comes from the desire of a person,object, or idea for its own sake.
d30463 No.539068
>>539059
>what if the child consents tho?
5838b9 No.539070
>>539050
I see your dirty trick, I'm not getting banned.
03e403 No.539071
>>539011
Yeah no kidding. Based on what these Catholics are saying, they don’t even believe in human rights. It’s no wonder that they have always killed and tortured innumerable people throughout the millennia.
03e403 No.539072
>>539068
So a grown man who disagrees with your church doctrine, but agrees with a “heretic” is a child? 😂 brilliant argument
Look, most of the so called heretics that your church has killed over the millennia were full grown adults, so don’t pull their pedophile bullshit with me.
>>539070
What are you talking about?
d30463 No.539074
>>539071
>human rights
Lel
d30463 No.539076
>>539072
You can't take away someone's free will, only influence their choices.
4e99b6 No.539077
>>538981
8981
>The pope said it was okay
>The pope is infallible and can do no wrong
>The pope knows better than God himself
I can't imagine why.
d30463 No.539080
03e403 No.539085
>>539074
>human rights are bad!
Okay, Robotnik
bc64df No.539087
>>539066
>That’s not what I said, dumbass.
this is what you said:
>Either way, physical violence is incompatible with free will.
which is nonsense.
you should be as autistic and nitpicking as i am about the use of the term free-will, it has deep theological implications.
03e403 No.539088
>>539080
I don’t give a fuck about the saint in your link; you didn’t answer my question at all. Of course a woman could refuse to marry someone even on the pains of death. That still doesn’t change the fact that she had to throw her life away for her integrity. She didn’t really want to die.
d30463 No.539089
>>539088
The saint in the link refused to have sex because it was a sin. The boy stabbed her and she died as a result of her wounds. She refused to give into sin even with the threat of death.
a130e9 No.539092
>>539085
>human rights
>not just a political tool
don't play dumb, anon
866692 No.539100
>>539071
>>539085
Hell is also a violation of human rights. This, I openly accept.
I fully accept that God defines my morality, no nation or any other things of the sort. We may agree to voluntarily add new rules, but they are less important than the rules of god.
204338 No.539105
>>538995
Around, and as bad as it been lied to have been.
03e403 No.539173
>>539100
>>539092
Yeah, and if Catholicism is banned in a country, you would be the first to complain. Look, human rights are beneficial to everyone because it gives us the freedom to believe what we want. I know you’re infatuated with your trad-Catholic, monarchical pipe dreams, but you should be grateful that you have the right to say Hail Marys.
03e403 No.539174
>>539087
>you should be as autistic and nitpicking as i am
Well, there is your problem. Quit being an autist
But seriously, your hairsplitting tendencies are keeping you from seeing the key issue. Yes, autonomous choices can be made in the face of violence, but the motives will always be done to alleviate negative consequencess. This is a miserable motive when you consider that a man should convert out of love to God, not because he is afraid for his life.
d30463 No.539180
>>539173
>Yeah, and if Catholicism is banned in a country, you would be the first to complain.
There is a difference between banning lies (all religion that isn't Catholicism) and the truth (Catholicism). Of course I would complain.
e2debd No.539181
>>539050
Nice argument except the fact that the church has never forcefully converted anyone, the members of the church? probably did cause the will of the church is not synonymous with the will of the individual.
we're not muslims who spread by conquest in that regard.
there's a reason we have missionaries after all and not armies.
your question can be simply answered by this: >>539016
>How? A person has to accept the heresy that is being presented to them. You can’t force a change of mind.
you're talking like wrong information can't affect someone's judgement nor can it deceive someone, which is utterly stupid incredibly callous thing to say.
remember your decisions on earth will affect where you'll end up beyond.
gr8 b8
/thread
c64688 No.539188
>>539181
really shouldn't bother responding, this is probably the same fedora tipping autist screeching about the Catholic Church in other threads
03e403 No.539193
>>539181
>you're talking like wrong information can't affect someone's judgement nor can it deceive someone, which is utterly stupid incredibly callous thing to say.
Who the fuck said that? I’m just saying that it’s not justifiable to KILL someone over a difference of theology. And why does it always have to be deceivers? Ever stop to think that not all heretics are trying to damn people to hell? They just have a different opinion then you, fucking autist.
163103 No.539279
>>539201
>>539197
>no response except shitty reaction memes
You showed me
4a95c4 No.539358
>>539193
>>539279
Take a deep breath and take five seconds to really think about what you're saying here. If you can't figure out what's wrong with it, I sincerely recommend you leave theology to the experts who don't struggle with rudimentary logical inference and concentrate on leading the most edifying Christian life you can manage. Godspeed.
163103 No.539652
>>539358
>deep breath
Nope. This man is advocating very damaging ideas (denial of human rights, thought policing), so of course I’m going to be worked up. Sorry buddy
>leave theology to the experts who don’t struggle with rudimentary logical inference
Ha! That’s rich! Snide and condescending remarks aren’t going to make me change my beliefs.
Anon’s argument is pretty clear: heretics should be killed because they damn souls to hell by deceiving them with false information. I don’t understand what I’m allegedly misunderstanding here 😂. My rebuttal was to simply inform heretics of their error in the public form, and let the people decide for themselves what they want to believe. It’s not up to the “Holy” Mother Church to force or KILL those that simply have a differing opinion. That’s you guy’s problem: you act as if people are literally your children who you can lord over. So called heretics are grown men and women, and you have NO right to coerce an adult to do or believe anything.
You pontificate to me as if I have no logical capacities to understand the points that anon is making. Ironically, it is YOU who is woefully inept at grasping the situation. You think that the debate is about whether someone can be mislead or deceived, intentionally or not. OF COURSE that can happen. The issue is whether we should be executing people for their genuine beliefs, and whether or not you value liberty of conscience. And again, are you really insinuating that all heretics are purposefully trying to damn souls to hell? If so, you are the one who is terribly deficient in logic and reason. Such a sweeping generalization can not even be POSSIBLE, let alone probable.
And let me kick this stupid “heresy is murder of the soul” meme. Murder involves the forceful taking of human life. How is heresy soul murder if the victim is being punished? Obviously, the deceived person is being held accountable, so wouldn’t it make more sense to call heresy soul suicide? Whether or not the person conjured the heresy himself or was “deceived” by a heresiarch is of no importance. The person chose to believe in a heresy in spite of the opposing arguments. You might as well act like a Muslim and start conquering other parts of the world because they are desperate for your thought policing. Apparently, people are too stupid to make decisions for themselves without the “Holy” Mother Church lol
I mean, geez, anon. You are such a pompous ass.
b51aa7 No.539653
>>539652
>emojis
>muh human rights
maybe /r/Christianity is more your speed.
163103 No.539655
>>539653
>emojis
What’s wrong with emojis?
>go to Reddit meme
>not supporting genocide, thought policing, and religious totalitarianism makes you a redditor
Okay. Well, I guess I am. I would rather be a redditor that values human rights, liberty and true free will, as opposed to tyranny and violence.
And don’t even tell me that you do value free will; you fucking DONT. You value obedience, fear, and domination. Christianity should be a love relationship between man and Christ, not a fucking hostile situation. You twisted souls are so pathetic and diabolical. People like you are why Christians are greatly despised.
d9fc0a No.539667
>>539655
>What’s wrong with emojis?
>Reddit spacing
>Reddit cancer is just a meme
This is the current state of 8chan. God help us.
c515cb No.539922
>>538981
>I’m interested in knowing how the execution of heretics is compatible with free will.
I think the heretic has to go out of their way to misguide people and do some measurable harm to warrant the death penalty. Like some sort of gay activist who twists the scripture to fit his gay agenda.
3f50a7 No.539925
>>538987
>>538981
It's not murder if it's done to protect the Church's teachings. This applies to middle ages when the news media was still scant and people lived a simpler life. However, nowadays these people will be martyred by their followers, so killing heretic is a pointless and harmful practice for the modern day church.
d30463 No.539938
>>539925
Better to just make them disappear.
3f50a7 No.539943
>>539938
But you can't make their ideas disappear. We live in the age of cloud computing, everything can be accessed and preserved. Kill 1 heretic, 100 heretics will appear out of the preserved and developed idea. And more than that, the society will turn against the church if we kill the heretics. Killing people for expressing their own opinion isn't something that is well regarded by the society, more people will abandon the church. The church is the fishers of men, a communal struggle, not a group of closed minded individuals inside their own vacuum. There are better approaches than this.
d30463 No.539946
>>539943
It's the lack of suppression of speech that allows these movements to grow. the alt-right growsin the US because they have free speech. In other countries like Canada it has zero public presence because it's essentially illegal. The soviet Union was never overthrown despite how oppressive it was.
6d5412 No.539947
>>539655
>religious totalitarianism
>The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit basically impact your whole life and ask you to impact the lives of everyone else too, but nevermind that, I have goals bigger than that
a2ae77 No.539949
>this thread
Pelagianism, semi-pelagianism and the roman heresy combined leads to murderous cultists? I guess we already saw that hundreds of years ago.
3f50a7 No.539953
>>539946
Suppression of speech is different from killing someone for expressing the wrong opinion.
>The soviet Union was never overthrown despite how oppressive it was.
But it was? Well, to be fair, in the long run capitalism isn't much less oppressive. And how many Soviets do you think who had felt oppressed by the communism would endorse it? They kept silent due to fear, not due to faith in the idea. Pretty much still happens in Best Korea.
>>539949
So you're going to say that Romans 1 is pelagianism as well? What if I tell you that the original sin is the weak and wounded nature of man itself?
>405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
a2ae77 No.539973
>>539953
>So you're going to say that Romans 1 is pelagianism as well?
Nothing there speaks of pelagianism, nor agrees to that heresy.
>What if I tell you that the original sin is the weak and wounded nature of man itself?
Then you would be wrong.
>text
<As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins (Ephesians 2:1)
<no one seeks for God.
It says dead. Dead people can't so much as move a single finger or think a thought. Paul agrees with this sentiment in Romans 8:5-8
<Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
>Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God
<For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
<So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
If you say you were able to come to God because you were baptised (as an infant or otherwise), then you are saying you came to faith of your own will, exertion and might. You then have faith not as a gift of God, but as works wherein you can boast.
This is why Jesus said:
<No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
<65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Since we also see that He has chosen some and not others, we should not presume that we can baptise just anyone and they would then come to Christ. No, in fact we see that the vast majority of those baptised as infants, for example, never step foot into the church again.
d30463 No.540005
>>539949
I will give you this though;killing heretics will get you sanctioned by zog and then your country will collapse.
163103 No.540381
>>539943
>>539925
Finally, a sane Catholic in this thread
163103 No.540383
>>539973
OP here. Good post. Catholics obviously don’t read the Bible.
8b8074 No.540484
>>539193
>heresy is just a difference of opinions
The fact that you think this shows your theological immaturity. Stop before you embarrass yourself further.
dc7b4e No.540492
It isn't. Bible says to mark them instead and just call them out for heresy.
e9ab3f No.540494
>>540484
Well, yeah it is a difference of opinion. I’m sorry you’re too big of an autist to see that, but the world doesn’t revolve around your lack of theory of mind. Can to explain how heresy isn’t a difference of opinion?
e9ab3f No.540495
e9ab3f No.540497
>>539947
Wow. What a fucking way to miss the point. The state has no right to force religion, or any belief for that matter, on its citizens. You larper idiots can claim that you hate human rights so much, but you idiots will be the first ones to complain once your human rights are violated. I’m sure you would have loved to be a surf in the Middle Ages, huh?
Christ said that we must freely come to him. You can’t do that if the state is threatening to burn you at the stake, idiot.
c06409 No.540577
>>540497
>The state has no right to force religion, or any belief for that matter, on its citizens.
The state will always have a religion or ideology explicitly or implicitly, can't be avoided. And yes, The government must acknowledge God as the greatest authority. Now go back to reddit, modernist.
58e736 No.540733
>>539655
so you do admit it
really makes me think
f35f88 No.540889
>>539973
>Nothing there speaks of pelagianism, nor agrees to that heresy.
Of course there isn't, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your claim is.
>If you say you were able to come to God because you were baptised
No I didn't. I don't get what you're trying to prive here. Baptism just erases the original sin of impiety.
66d5c7 No.540942
>>538981
>It seems wrong to kill someone because they are a heretic;
It is, because it is not the state's mission to enforce a church's particular doctrine. Church discipline doesn't extend past exile from the church. 1 Corinthians 5:13. The state meanwhile has to protect its whole nation and its laws from their representatives. A state-backed church is a barbaric monstrosity that actually interferes with this, as any radical, totalitarian communist one-party state would.
>sounds like a violation of a person’s free will and human rights to me.
A lot of things the State should do involves violating free will, and human rights is nothing but a joke parody of God-given rights.
>>539652
>This man is advocating very damaging ideas (denial of human rights, thought policing), so of course I’m going to be worked up.
I wouldn't be. They are mostly just LARPing and having a good time. But yes, nevertheless thought policing is both impractical and highly damaging if someone were ever in the position to instate it. You end up with a society of back-stabbers with zero social cohesion whatsoever where the biggest, boldest liars and the most ruthless criminals easily prosper. And you can guess how well the international Jews would be doing robbing us blind.
>you have NO right to coerce an adult to do or believe anything.
When acting under sovereign rights, the state does have that right. And normal people always have the option to resist, whether that makes them scumbag murderers or merely practicing self-defense against those who would all depends on the details. But in any event the state can and will continue to force adults to do things.
66d5c7 No.540944
>>539946
Brainlet zog commie. You're easily the worst human being in the thread for this post alone, if you can even still be considered human. I hope the free world can one day line up and shoot all progressive ringleaders for their deliberate treason.
8b8074 No.540952
>>540494
I see your conceit obstructs your vision too, among other things.
c06409 No.540955
>>540944
I never said I wanted them suppressed, I don't. I want the liberals hanged too.
bfa043 No.540961
ITT: Baiters baiting baiters while in turn being baited.
66d5c7 No.541111
>>540955
You're anti-free speech and pro thought policing, and extolling the virtues of progressive methods for total authoritarianism. Useful idiots and revolutionaries like this ought to pack their bags for Iran or North Korea and never return.
c06409 No.541113
>>541111
>and extolling the virtues of progressive methods for total authoritarianism
>progressive methods
LOL. More like medieval methods.
66d5c7 No.541294
>>541113
So you confirmed you are not a human being but are merely a socialist animal. Probably from a poor heritage as well.