/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Because God is merciful.

>>537662

because man cannot bear the fullness of God's justice and law and therefore we can only be justified through God's mercy

>“For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius[a] a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”

Because grace is divine life itself. If you die in life, you pass unto life. If you die in death, you pass unto death.

It's simple, really.

>>538003

Forgot my flag

>>537662

He Loves me

He Loves me not

He Loves me

He Loves me not

This type of "gospel" is heretical, runs counter to everything God reveals about Himself in Scripture, and is wholly depressing and unworthy of entertaining. Either way you put it - the former or the latter - is a gross misrepresentation of the God Whom we Love "because He first Loves us."

So many who name the Name of Jesus are going to find themselves in that awful predicament of the men in Matthew 7:22, thinking that God's Love was dependent on THEIR "goodness," instead of doing the Will of the Father - which is to simply believe on the One Whom He has sent (John 6:40) - because HIS Righteousness, and not our own, is what makes us worthy in the Father's Eyes.

>>538003

>As long as you believe on Christ you are alive.

So does demons. Read whole Gospel next time.

>>538238

Having Grace have little to do with God loving us for surprise surprise, he loves ALL MEN, so that he died for whole World.

>>538259

I've read all four Gospels, in their entirety, repeatedly, for decades. I assure you, I'm quite familiar with the whole of Scripture. And I know that the verse you mentioned is usually one of the very first verses the unbeliever reaches for when the actual Good News is explained to them. It's in James, chapter 2.

It's been said that, "Catholicism without James is dead," owing to the great misunderstanding of the contents of the epistle from the Lord's brother - misunderstanding due in no small part to the fact that there are about five different meanings of the Greek word "sozo" and its derivatives. Anyway, the passage you are mentioning says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF demons believing on Jesus for Eternal Life - as if such a thing were at all possible, anyway. It is says, "you believe that God is One. The demons believe this and shudder."

>>538260

>Having Grace have little to do with God loving us for surprise surprise, he loves ALL MEN, so that he died for whole World.

I'm not sure how this is meant to counter my comment, except to say that I probably wasn't clear enough in what I said initially. Yes, God Loves the world, and this is why He put on human flesh, and condescended to man, to be treated by him worse than we treat each other on our bad days, so that we might be seen as Righteous as His Son in the eyes of God. This Righteousness - this acceptance as His Kids - comes BY FAITH IN THE ONE WHO WAS, IN AND OF HIMSELF, TRULY RIGHTEOUS. If you believe that God's acceptance of you as His Kid is conditioned upon YOUR performance, then you don't know God at all and you're probably not His Kid to begin with. His acceptance of His Kids is every bit as permanent and unceasing as a good HUMAN father's love for his kid - even moreso. If a good human father never throws his child away because they didn't perform up to his standard, but rather disciplines him and continues to love him, then how much more would GOD not throw away His Kids, whom He purchased at the price of the Blood of Jesus Christ.

>>538278

>"Catholicism without James is dead,"

Explains why Luther wanted to remove it from the bible. Also explains why protestants have to completely remove/ignore parts of the bible for their beliefs to start making sense.

I wish there was a field like the organ donor thing on my drivers license that would mean "get me a Catholic priest please".

>>538284

I don't think Luther understood James, either. I am not a big fan of Luther, and I don't consider myself a "Protestant." I do not define myself by what I am NOT - and that would be what I am doing, if I were a Protestant.

Luther was trying to "reform" an institution that was inherently unreformable. He was a lapsed Catholic who was trying to "fix" the Catholic Church. This is like trying to make your refrigerator do advanced calculus.

I just want to make sure my position is understood, because it seems you are trying to box me into this false dichotomy. False dichotomies are one of Satan's favorite tactics, as a brief survey of the world will quickly reveal, and I will have no part in them.

>>538284

I'm pretty sure he either way didn't take it out. And if James 2 was saying you needed works then it would contradict over 100 other verses

>>538401

>And if James 2 was saying you needed works then it would contradict over 100 other verses

Only if you come up with an interpretation that leads to contradictions.

>>538406

Well Romans 4:5 literally says "but to him that WORKETH NOT"

>>538407

>it's a "works of the law" == "good works" episode

>>538408

Well you also aren't saved by the deeds of the law either

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

>>538410

…………Glad we agree on that.

>>538411

So where does it say Paul ment the works if the law and nit just works cisidering it just says "worketh".

>>538413

Like how in Galtians 3 it says works of the law but nit in Romans 4

Galatians 3

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Also how it says "just shall live by faith" not "faith and good works"

>>538413

see

>>538410

>>538407

> For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

> We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

The context makes clear he's referring to works of the law. Romans 4 is giving proof for the statement in Romans 3

>28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Obviously St Paul does not teach faith alone, for St Paul himself states.

>For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

Which also completely destroys the claim that the ten commandments are optional because they of the law. If St Paul considered the 10 commandments as just a work of the law then he would place them with circumcision, a work of the law that avails nothing. He doesn't do that though, because it is Christ himself who said "If you would enter life, keep the commandments". St Paul makes clear a believer has a moral imperative to act in a certain way while demonstrating that the OT law avails nothing in regards to justification. St Paul is also keenly aware that a believer can lose this justification if they fail to continue in this moral behavior. He fears the same could happen to himself, as he writes

>25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

St Paul states he would be disqualified from the race, he would not receive the prize, if he did not exercise self-control and subdue his body, that is, his desires and actions.

>>538416

Well that's romans 3 and anyways it says "a man is justified by faith" Not "a man is justified by faith and good works"

>>538419

Yeah, we're justified by faith, but by a faith that is alive rather than dead (i.e. devoid of works). That's what James tells us.

>25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

>not KJV

>>538278

>I've read all four Gospels, in their entirety, repeatedly, for decades. I assure you, I'm quite familiar with the whole of Scripture. And I know that the verse you mentioned is usually one of the very first verses the unbeliever reaches for when the actual Good News is explained to them. It's in James, chapter 2.

I could say the very same thing about Romans 4. In both case, it would be noy argument but pride.

>It's been said that, "Catholicism without James is dead," owing to the great misunderstanding of the contents of the epistle from the Lord's brother - misunderstanding due in no small part to the fact that there are about five different meanings of the Greek word "sozo" and its derivatives.

One who cemnts that no nothing about Catholicism. To illustrate this: Session 6th of Council of Trent quotes Scripture 148 times. It quotes James three (3) times, two of which in one place. Moreover, the first time is more explanation and summary, and second can be easly omited.

Read it for yourself http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm and next time, use memes as spice not a dish.

> Anyway, the passage you are mentioning says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF demons believing on Jesus for Eternal Life - as if such a thing were at all possible, anyway. It is says, "you believe that God is One. The demons believe this and shudder."

And context says that faith that you have in hope for eternal life is not enough. For it the same faith that is in Hebrews 11 mentioned.

>>538283

And that STILL have nothing to do with God's Grace and us being in state of it more than the fact that we may be in state of Grace only because God in his Love give it us.

>>538399

>St. James was retarded to point that out

>>538421

But that isn't what James said. Someone with dead faith still has faith.

>>538424

Yeah, but dead faith doesn't save.

>>538430

But it does

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Also relying on your works gets you sent to hell

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

>>538431

Nope, re-read James.

>>538432

Yes. I've akready read James. Dead faith is still faith, like how a dead dog is still a dog.

>>538430

Romans 4:5

>But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>>538431

No, it doesn't. That's the point of St James epistle, a faith without works, a dead faith, is not salvific. Pope St Clement in his first epistle remarks

>The Creator and Father of all worlds, the Most Holy, alone knows their amount and their beauty. Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vain glory and ambition. For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those that take pleasure in them that do them

The failure to perform certain actions and avoid other ones is understood to be damning. St James and St Paul both affirm it is not the hearer of the law who will be justified but the doer, because to just hear Christ is to build your house on the sand, but to follow Christ is to build your house on the rock.

>>538435

Then reconcile that with James 2:26.

>>538436

So nice of you to join us, but that point has already been addressed.

>>538437

Besides it's still faith.

>Pope St Clement in his first epistle remarks

Sorry but I don't read the fanfiction books

>>538438

>Then reconcile that with James 2:26.

I already did. That's what this whole argument is.

>So nice of you to join us, but that point has already been addressed

Even if you think the worketh part means just works of the law(which it doesn't say, it just says "worketh" so it means works of the law and good works) it still says "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

>>538440

Not all faith is salvific. If you want to ignore the writings of a saint who knew St Peter and St Paul then take heed of Jesus

>24 “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

Faith, if it does not have works, is dead, will avail you nothing, it will only lead you to a great fall.

>>538441

>I already did.

I meant James 2:24, actually. Sorry about that. You say that dead faith without works (i.e. dead faith) saves, while James 2:24 clearly states that faith that is alone (i.e. faith alone) does not justify.

>Even if you think the worketh part means just works of the law(which it doesn't say, it just says "worketh" so it means works of the law and good works) it still says "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

I know taking verses out of context can be convenient, but it doesn't do anything to prove your point.

>>538443

That doesn't say your faith won't save you. It's saying how you mostdefinently shoukd do works which you should.

>>538444

That's hustified to man. Many times Paul says "the just shall live by faith"

Besides it says that your faith is counted as righteousness not your faith and good works

>>538446

>That's hustified to man

Where does it say that?

>>538448

Because it talks about Abraham and it says in Genesis 15 and Romans 4 it was his faith. And it also was befire he got circumcised. Also if it didn't mean that then it would conradict the rest of the Bible.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C3QCpp2J5M0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dPqSelVJvoA

I do see how you think it fies say you have ti do works because I thought it was saying that also the first time I read it.

>>538449

…so, in other words, it doesn't say that. Gotcha.

>>538445

>That doesn't say your faith won't save you

There are two people here. One of them hears and does, the other of them hears and does not. The one who hears is does doesn't fall, while the one who hears and does not falls. The hearing is worthless without the doing. This is easy to see, the only difference between the two men is whether they do, not whether they hear. Faith will save you if it is accompanied by doing, otherwise you will fall, and great will be the fall. St Paul expresses the same when he writes

>For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

If the faith did not work through love, it wouldn't avail. That's the entire point of St James epistle, to explain that works and proper conduct, not just faith, are necessary.

>>538450

Welk then the Bible would contradict when it says you're justified by faith then

>>538451

Like I said you should do works but to br saved the only thing you need to do is believe.

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

>>538454

Again, the entire point of St James' epistle is that the faith that saves is a faith that has works. If anybody is saved by faith, they are saved by faith and works, since only by works can that faith be made salvific. As St John writes in his epistles

> If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;

> He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

>6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

So St John did not understand it to be faith alone, since St John writes on the necessity of maintaining behavior. Now, Jesus in the gospel of John notes on the necessity of maintaining behavior as well,

> 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

> 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

Jesus is not supporting faith and works are optional or just signs, to Jesus it's clear that keeping his commandments, abiding in His love, is necessary, not just to believe. Elsewhere Jesus states

>35 The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Jesus is very clear in all the gospels. Obedience, not just faith, is necessary.

>>538462

Please watch this. He explains all if it.