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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: ab6511fc9383f50⋯.jpg (111.71 KB, 724x483, 724:483, Bible Bus.jpg)

814911 No.535601

John 11

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Huh, so it seems like you just need to believe that Jesus is the Christ to be saved.

814911 No.535602

>>535601

Also that he's the Son of God


854226 No.535610

Well you have to believe IN him but yeah. I'm just clarifying this before some hostile agent shows up.


ab349a No.535620

File: 9573911e5ef959f⋯.png (405.91 KB, 669x948, 223:316, 9573911e5ef959fb1a2daf3c87….png)

Shit thread.


8c3410 No.535639

>>535601

Is the front windshield angled sideways toard the viewer, or it it just an illusion?


3cfa32 No.535903

John 3

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

>15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

>16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

>18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

>36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


ec9847 No.535919

Liveth and believeth in me.

You have to actually live in accordance to Christ.

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28“You have answered correctly, Jesus said. “Do this and you will live.”


3cfa32 No.535929

>>535919

>he that believeth in me

Also the woman just says she believes Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God. Nothing about her works.


8d3669 No.535930

>>535601

And keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17)


3cfa32 No.535932

>>535930

>And keep the commandments

>he thinks thats actually possible

Give Romans 3 another read


8d3669 No.535933

>>535932

1 John 3:9 sweetie


3cfa32 No.535938

>>535933

Yes. Once you're saved the sins you do are no longer cointed against you(Romans 4). And being born of God(son of God) is kust believing on Jesus.

1 John 5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 21:7

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 3:5

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Galatians 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Romans 4

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


3cfa32 No.535939

>>535933

>>535938

Also that would mean you never once lied since believing in Jesus which you most certainly have. And if you haven't I can you have done idoltary by that flag.


8d3669 No.535942

>>535938

So you're happy being a child of the devil then? Because that's what what 1 John 3:10 says you are. Also, you obviously don't love God since you don't keep his commandments (John 14:15).


3cfa32 No.535943

>>535942

>God = satan

Get out heretic

And I never said i don't try to keep the commandments but that it's impossible to follow them all and that you don't need to to be saved.


8d3669 No.535945

>>535943

Where's the verse that says it's impossible to keep the commandments? >inb4 all have sinned etc. etc. deflection


a7462a No.535946

>>535945

Luke 18:27


3cfa32 No.535947

>>535945

Romans 3. Breaking the commandments is sinning.


8d3669 No.535949

>>535946

So, it is possible? :^) You just need God to help you. Thanks mate, feels good being gadolig.

>>535947

Answer my question m8. Which verse?


3cfa32 No.535951

>>535949

Somewhere in Romans it says breaking the law is sinning and there isn't sin if there is no law. I have to get off for aboit 30 minutes now.


a7462a No.535953

>>535949

>So, it is possible? :^) You just need God to help you. Thanks mate, feels good being gadolig.

No, it is impossible for man to keep the commandments. It is possible for God to keep the commandments, which is why God came down from heaven, to keep the commandments in our place.


4680d8 No.535955

>>535953

>But he said, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”

>possible with God

Not possible for God, but with God.


8d3669 No.535956


a7462a No.535959

>>535955

>>535956

The contrast between that and "with men" demonstrates it means for God. Christ obviously means it is impossible for men to keep the commandments when He says "with men", so He means it is possible for God to keep the commandments when He says "with God".


8d3669 No.535960

File: f3dcb3b81d4640a⋯.jpg (25.03 KB, 526x461, 526:461, 1494077179388.jpg)

>>535959

But they were talking about being saved, not keeping the commandments. So only God can be saved now?


a7462a No.535963

>>535960

Verse 18, Jesus is asked how to be saved

Verse 20, Jesus answers to keep the commandments

Verse 23, The rich man refuses to keep the 1st commandment

Verse 25, Jesus says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved

Verse 26, The disciples ask who can be saved

Verse 27, Jesus says what is impossible with man is possible with God

The passage equates salvation and keeping the commandments. You cannot be saved without keeping the commandments, and you cannot keep the commandments without being saved. Hence, God came down out of heaven to keep the commandments, to make those who follow Him the righteousness of God in Him.


8d3669 No.535964

>>535963

Jesus: It's ok bro, I'll keep the commandments for you go on and be a sinner :^)

#ThingsJesusNeverSaid


a7462a No.535968

>>535964

#NotAnArgument

<For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


3cfa32 No.535969

>>535964

Well looking at your flag I can tell that you break the 2nd commandment every sunday


4680d8 No.535972

>>535968

>>535963

>The passage equates salvation and keeping the commandments.

Yes.

> You cannot be saved without keeping the commandments, and you cannot keep the commandments without being saved.

This is true but the wording is rough.

>Hence, God came down out of heaven to keep the commandments, to make those who follow Him the righteousness of God in Him.

And part of that is to make them follow the commandments, because salvation is equated with keeping the commandments, because we are to observe all He taught, and one of those things was keeping the commandments.


d996a0 No.535976

"And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die."

Living in Jesus = Works

Believing in Jesus = Faith

"Abide [Live] in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot BEAR FRUIT of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." John 15:4

Living in Jesus means bearing fruit and bearing fruit means good works.


a7462a No.535977

>>535972

>And part of that is to make them follow the commandments

Well, every saint is most certainly going to be inclined to holiness, because they walk according to the Spirit, but that isn't what being made the righteousness of God in Him means.

>because salvation is equated with keeping the commandments

Yes, exactly, keeping the commandments, which means doing so perfectly. If you seek to keep the commandments yourself (seek to be justified by the law), you will be damned, because you cannot keep the commandments. It is because God has already kept the commandments that men can be saved.

>because we are to observe all He taught

Of course, but we are not justified and condemned based on our failure or success. We are to observe all He taught, but I'm guessing you've failed to observe every teaching and at every time.


4680d8 No.535983

>>535977

>you will be damned, because you cannot keep the commandments

Well that's actually not true though. You can with Gods grace. Since you cited luke, just read luke 1

>And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So it's clearly possible to uphold the commandments. Does this mean never breaking them? That would be a tall order. But it is for that reason we have forgiveness, so that when we break them, we can confess and be forgiven for our trespass and it won't be held against us.

>Of course, but we are not justified and condemned based on our failure or success.

That's contrary to what Jesus says. See Luke 12:41-48.

>45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.

The failure to obey takes the servant and puts him with the unbelievers. Of course you can fail, but you can confess your sins and be forgiven. That doesn't mean failing is of no consequence, or that failing isn't something to worry about. It just means that you can be forgiven for your failings if you confess your failing.


8d3669 No.535985

>>535969

#NotAnArgument

>>535968

It is an argument, though. Everywhere Jesus says to keep the commandments, then y'all come along and say what he's asking for is impossible? Then make up this weird heresy that he keeps the commandments for us without any supporting evidence.


3cfa32 No.535986

>>535976

Fruit is people not works. Also it says "he that believeth in me"


4920dc No.535990

>>535985

Moses brought the law, but Christ brought the grace and the truth.

Grace is unmerited, but we must carry our cross daily (aka work).

Most astounding thing to me about Baptists is that they are willing to accept a circular argument without blinking, but cannot accept this.


3cfa32 No.535991

>>535985

You are commanded ti keep the commandments(that's why they're called COMMANDments). It's that it's impossible to do them all and never break one and that you don't have to follow them to be saved(besides maybe the first one but that's about faith)


a7462a No.535996

>>535985

>Everywhere Jesus says to keep the commandments, then y'all come along and say what he's asking for is impossible?

No actually I'm pretty sure that was Jesus Himself.

>Then make up this weird heresy that he keeps the commandments for us without any supporting evidence.

I gave you exegesis of the passage. Feel free to respond to that.

>>535983

>Well that's actually not true though

<impossible with man

>So it's clearly possible to uphold the commandments

They kept the commandments in general. They did not keep every single one. The demand of the law is perfection.

>The failure to obey takes the servant and puts him with the unbelievers

The servant is an unbeliever, he is placed with the open unbelievers, in hell. Unless you think Joel Osteen is the quintessential example of a true Christian.

>Of course you can fail, but you can confess your sins and be forgiven. That doesn't mean failing is of no consequence, or that failing isn't something to worry about. It just means that you can be forgiven for your failings if you confess your failing.

The failures of Christians are already forgiven. Romans 8:1

>>535990

>Grace is unmerited, but we must carry our cross daily (aka work)

If grace requires your co-operation, it is merited.


4920dc No.535998

>>535991

>It's that it's impossible to do them all and never break one

where did you find that piece of logic? the commandments aren't that hard to follow besides no theft in the age of piracy


3cfa32 No.535999

>>535998

>over 300 hundred

>not hard

I guess you never once in you entire life ever lied?


4920dc No.536000

>>535996

grace is unmerited, meaning, it does not require cooperation


a7462a No.536001

>>535998

Have you ever considered reading the New Testament?


a7462a No.536002

>>536000

So then everyone who receives grace will absolutely be saved regardless of their actions


4920dc No.536003

>>535999

You mean the ten commandments?

>>536001

Hello KJV.

ok can you show me the wikipedia article for the 300 commandments to follow


3cfa32 No.536006

>>536003

Dude there are way more than just 10


3cfa32 No.536007


4920dc No.536011

Hmm, but I believe in Christ, so I can sin as much as like. Ok cool, so I'm a Catholic, and I'm already saved anyway?


4680d8 No.536015

>>535996

>They kept the commandments in general. They did not keep every single one. The demand of the law is perfection.

Funnily enough, the demand of Christ is the exact same. Matthew 5:48.

>The servant is an unbeliever, he is placed with the open unbelievers, in hell.

The parable does not say he is an unbeliever. Combining the previous verses it is clear he is not.

>37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes; truly, I say to you, he will gird himself and have them sit at table, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would have been awake and would not have left his house to be broken into. 40 You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

And Peter says

>41 Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?”

And Jesus responds by saying

> “Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. 44 Truly, I tell you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’

So the servant recognizes the Master, and Jesus answers Peters question by saying who the faithful servant that will be blessed is by saying it's the servant who isn't being disobedient when the Master is delayed. Again, you claim the servant here is one of the unfaithful, but the text does not say so. The text says he recognizes his master, otherwise the servant would not say "My master is delayed".

>The failures of Christians are already forgiven. Romans 8:1

And why are they forgiven?

>For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ because to be in Christ is necessarily to be free of condemning actions. We know that those who do condemning actions sever themselves from Christ, just read further in the same epistle

> If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off

>For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

>22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Clear warning that you won't be spared for doing what is wrong, God won't ignore your trespasses. If He did, why do we pray "Forgive us our trespasses"?


9c055d No.536016

>>536011

you should obey God out of love for Him, not because you want something in return.


3cfa32 No.536018

>>536011

Well you're saved by grace and if you think you have ti do works then it is no longer grace(Romans 11:6)


48f94a No.536019

>>535964

Jesus didn't die for our sins? Wow, I never knew that. Where are you getting this belief from that Jesus didn't die for our sins and we need to work our way to Heaven?


3cfa32 No.536020

>>536015

You're still pinished on earth for sinning


4920dc No.536021

>>536016

I celebrate the sacraments for my love of God, so I'm all set? Thank you for the good news.

>>536018

But I don't do it out of expectation, I do it out of grace.

You baptists aren't bad at all, why not come to a roman catholic church this sunday?


854226 No.536025

>>535919

>>535976

Luke 4:4

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

John 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


3cfa32 No.536028

>>536021

It's because you think your works eill save you not just because you do them

>You baptists aren't bad at all, why not come to a roman catholic church this sunday?

idoltary is a sin

(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST)

4680d8 No.536029

>>536020

You are punished eternally for sin if that sin is not forgiven. The parable further excludes purely temporal punishment. The parable states

>the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful

The master must first come and then the master will place him with the unfaithful and punish him. If this was purely temporal punishment, it could not be said the master was delayed in coming, since temporal punishment for sin is accrued at the moment of the sin, and not when we sit before the judgment seat. As further proof, the preceding warning by Jesus that prompted this parable is opened by

>35 “Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning, 36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the marriage feast, so that they may open to him at once when he comes and knocks.

Which can not be understood to mean purely temporal punishment and not the judgment since He continues by saying

>40 You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

The unfaithful slave in the parable is then discussing the judgment and eternal punishment, and not purely temporal punishment.


4920dc No.536031

>>536028

no, I think grace will save me

so we should all do sacraments, our fathers have been doing it for over 2000 years to get closer to God, sounds like a good idea to me

>idoltary is a sin

h-huh


3cfa32 No.536033

>>536031

It's not grace if you think you have ti do works(Ephesians 2:8-9 also below)

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


d996a0 No.536034

>>535986

Yes, it does say "believeth in me," but it doesn't say only that. It says "liveth AND (not OR) believeth in me," which implies that living is something separate from believing and that both are required. That's one reason why Catholics acknowledge that both living (action/working) and believing (faith) are necessary. If only faith were necessary, Jesus would have said, "And whosoever believeth in me shall never die," and not included the part about living in Him.

>Fruit is people not works.

This is not true because Jesus specifically refers to people as branches, and the fruits are their works. Let's work through these 10 verses from John 15:1-10:

<>I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

Jesus is the vine, God the Father cultivates the Son.

<>Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Branches of the vine are people. If they don't bear fruit (do good works), they are removed from the vine (Jesus).

<>and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

For every person who does good works, God removes the dead parts of their branch so that they will do more and more good works.

<>You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Jesus has connected us to Himself by his ministry, but just because a branch is connected to the vine doesn't mean it will bear fruit.

<>Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

We cannot do any good works at all if we aren't connected to Jesus because all goodness comes from Him.

<>I am the vine, YOU ARE THE BRANCHES; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

When the branch (person) receives nutrients (grace) from the vine (Jesus), it produces fruit (good works), and a branch cannot produce fruit if it's not a part of the vine.

<>If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

If the vinedresser (Father) takes you away from the vine (Jesus) because you do not bear fruit (good works), then you are cast into the fire (Hell).

<>If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

The branches (people) have the agency to cooperate with the vine (Jesus) and receive the nutrients (grace) they require to bear good fruit (good works).

<>My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

The good works glorify God because we allow God's goodness to be seen through us. If you do not do good works, you are not Jesus' disciples.

<>Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

If you don't keep His commandments (and do good works), then you do not abide in Him (the vine).


d996a0 No.536037

>>536025

What do you think "living by the word" means? It doesn't say "believing in the word," it means living your life in accordance with God's words which is *drum roll* good works.


3cfa32 No.536038

>>536034

No, the verse before says nothing at all of "living i Christ". And the woman only talks about her faith, not her works.

Also you are the branch and people you get saved are you're fruit. Like in Matthew 7 the trees are the prophets and the fruit is who they get saved.


4920dc No.536039

>>536033

>It's not grace if you think you have ti do works

I don't think it works, I think grace and faith alone saves me. I still wish to do sacraments to help me feel solidified in my faith, you don't have to do it if you don't like :)

>And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

ok, so if I don't work for grace, I'm all set?


a7462a No.536042

>>536015

>The parable does not say he is an unbeliever. Combining the previous verses it is clear he is not.

These servants are clerics. That is how they "serve".

>And Peter says

>And Jesus responds by saying

Can you please avoid spamming scripture? It muddies the discussion, adds nothing, and veils a lack of exegesis.

>The text says he recognizes his master, otherwise the servant would not say "My master is delayed".

Again, these servants are clerics. Pastors. You have to factor that into your interpretation. Their behavior is how they lead Christ's sheep, the former acts rightly, the other fleeces the flock. This is why I brought up Osteen, he is an example of the unfaithful servant being described. But no sane man thinks he truly believes in Christ.

>And why are they forgiven?

You answer the question by going the oppostie direction of Paul. Paul uses the word "therefore". He is pointing backwards, not forwards. The reference is clearly to Romans 7:24-25

<Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because they are in Christ Jesus, who delivers us from this body of death by His death.

>There is no condemnation for those in Christ because to be in Christ is necessarily to be free of condemning actions

No, there is no condemnation because "you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God". Earlier in that passage Paul says the law is binding on a person only so long as they live. Hence, having died to the law through Christ, it is no longer binding on us, we are not under the law but under grace, and because the law has forgotten our existence having satisfied its wrath, our sins are not imputed to us.

>Clear warning that you won't be spared for doing what is wrong, God won't ignore your trespasses

I wonder if all you who cite this passage ever to actually read it

<Now, I am speaking to you, Gentiles

This has absolutely nothing to do with individual salvation. This is about divine favor on nations. Was every single Jew damned? Of course not, Paul was a saint, and a Jew. This is a warning to the Gentile nations not to boast that now God's favor has come on them and is no longer on the Jews, or else they too will lose God's favor just like the Jews.


854226 No.536044

>>536037

John 6:47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 1:13-14: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


ec9847 No.536047

>>535929

>Also the woman just says she believes Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God.

Because "Believe" does not "Believe only". Believe is a packed word.

>Nothing about her works.

This woman is Martha. You may re-read parts of Gospel that speak about her.

Pro tip-serving Lord is work. As well as actually acting in contrary to Mary who only wept.+

>>536025

>Luke 4:4

Again LIVE by words. Works.

Also, words of God are as follows among other things "Whoever eats my flesh and drink my blood shall live"

>John 6:63

Words that are Spirit in this verse are as follows "Whoever drink my blood and eat my flesh have eternal life"


4680d8 No.536048

>>536038

That doesn't do you any better because you still get conditional based on a work, you've just defined that work as preaching.

>>536042

>Again, these servants are clerics. Pastors. You have to factor that into your interpretation. You can't because the text does not say so. The text does not say this is for teachers only.

> There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because they are in Christ Jesus, who delivers us from this body of death by His death.

Which is what I said. Thanks.

> Hence, having died to the law through Christ, it is no longer binding on us, we are not under the law but under grace, and because the law has forgotten our existence having satisfied its wrath, our sins are not imputed to us.

The non-imputation of sins so as to mean you never have to bear responsibility for them does not exist anywhere in scripture.

>This has absolutely nothing to do with individual salvation. This is about divine favor on nations.

The text does not say so.

>Now I am speaking to you Gentiles

Paul is addressing Gentiles. Is he addressing Gentile nations? That would be difficult,

>Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

So if "Gentiles" refers to "Gentile Nations" then Jews should correspond to "Jewish Nation" but Paul writes he has the goal to thus save "some of them". How can you save some of a nation? By saving some of the people inside that nation. Since the use of Jews denotes individual jews, the use of gentiles must similarly denote individual gentiles. Further, we read

>You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Branches plural. Before Christ what branches existed? Only one branch if nations, but if people many Jews. Since St Paul uses plural here, it again must be referring to people and not to nations.


854226 No.536051

>>536047

Matthew 4:4

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

>Also, words of God are as follows among other things "Whoever eats my flesh and drink my blood shall live"

In John 6:53 he says "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

And then in John 6:63 he explains "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. "

So unless you keep his WORDS, you have no life in you. The flesh profits nothing, you need the words to abide in you to have life. Just like to be born again you don't physically re-enter into a womb but rather are being born again of the spirit.


ec9847 No.536055

>>536051

>Matthew 4:4

Then LIVE by EVERY WORD even those who says cleary "Workout your salvation with fear and trembling"

>So unless you keep his WORDS, you have no life in you.

But that's not in the text anon.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you - Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you - they are spirit, and they are life. "

So what words? That we must eat his flesh. What is spirit and life? Eating his flesh.

>The flesh profits nothing, you need the words to abide in you to have life.

The flesh here is earthly understanding of things. AKA "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" and "This saying is hard, and who can hear it?"

>Just like to be born again you don't physically re-enter into a womb but rather are being born again of the spirit.

AND WATER.

For we are not spiritual beings. Our nature is both spiritual and corporal. And corporal nature needs signs and matter. To deny it is to be gnostic. Which is pretty close to you, at least according to Saint Ignatius.


a7462a No.536059

>>536048

>You can't because the text does not say so

This servant is set over his Master's household to feed His house. That is true only of teachers, laymen are not set over His house, and laymen do not feed His house.

>Which is what I said

"In Christ Jesus" is imputation language. It means that He is our representative, so we are judged on account of Him, not on anything in us or done by us. I'm saying there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus because they are imputed His righteousness.

>The non-imputation of sins so as to mean you never have to bear responsibility for them does not exist anywhere in scripture

Ok, feel free to respond to the exegesis proving you wrong any time.

>How can you save some of a nation?

Paul says "some of them" because he hopes to save all the Jews who will be saved. This is not the time for their mass conversion, so Paul refers to individuals from the nation. Furthermore, verses 15-16 say "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump". "Life from the dead" and "firstfruits" are clearly references to the resurrection. He is teaching that the conversion of the Jewish nation is a sign of the end times. But if this were mere individuals, and not national conversions, any Jew coming to Christ would fulfill this prophecy.

>Branches plural

Nations are made up of individuals. It is plural because it is referring to the Jewish nation in composition, not Jewish individuals in specificity.


854226 No.536060

>>536055

>But that's not in the text anon.

>Interpolates one part of scripture into another

You just altered the word of God.

>But that's not in the text anon.

Alright fine. You will notice Jesus Christ just told us He is the bread of life.

John 6:47-51

>Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

How can these things be true? If believing on Him (John 6:47) is the same as eating of this bread (John 6:50). He just got done telling you they are the same thing. And I didn't have to insert one part of scripture into another like you did to show it. I just posted five verses with no interruptions.

>AND WATER.

John 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


4680d8 No.536079

>>536059

>This servant is set over his Master's household to feed His house. That is true only of teachers, laymen are not set over His house, and laymen do not feed His house.

What is the house? It can also be the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, and the immorality of the servant towards other the lack of charity the servant has. I don't think I will convince you with this parable though.

>"In Christ Jesus" is imputation language.

According to you

>It means that He is our representative, so we are judged on account of Him, not on anything in us or done by us.

This is patently false, see Matthew 25:31-46 where individuals, and there is no possibility of claiming "it's false teachers" here, are judged based on their actions.

>Ok, feel free to respond to the exegesis proving you wrong any time.

What exegesis? I suppose it's based on Romans 4, I'll deal with that now then.

>And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

The alternative brought up in the previous verse would make God a debtor to man, and that is most ridiculous, who can earn Gods grace? No one. Now, to make equal the jews and gentiles Paul pronounces that the work they held to make Abraham their father according to the flesh, circumcision, was nothing in comparison to being reckoned righteous by faith which Abraham received before his circumcision. Indeed, as we read previously "the righteousness of God has been made manifest apart from the law", that is, the jews in obeying circumcision and other works attempting to place God in their debt did not by these obtain righteousness, but through faith they would obtain it, as the gentiles did.

> 6 So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

Now the blessing pronounced on the man whom God reckons this righteousness is this

>Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

>blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin.”

This is taken from Psalm 32. In Psalm 32 we read

>5 I acknowledged my sin to thee,and I did not hide my iniquity;I said, “I will confess my trangressions to the Lord”;then thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin.Selah

The blessing is the forgiveness, and why it is a blessing is because it is by grace, not of debt through offerings and sacrifices. There is no "not having to bear the punishment" but "having the punishment taken away by forgiveness" certainly exists. Another useful psalm on this topic is Psalm 51, where David writes

> Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy steadfast love; according to thy abundant mercy blot out my transgressions.2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! 3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in thy sight, so that thou art justified in thy sentence and blameless in thy judgment.

So the same topic, but there is still a bearing of punishment. Now here the blessing is pronounced again as one apart from works when David writes

>For thou hast no delight in sacrifice; were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased. The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

So the blessedness is the forgiveness of sins, blessed because it is of grace not works(offerings and sacrifices) and it is not never having to bear punishment for sins. That is not what the text says nor what Saint Paul teaches.


4680d8 No.536080

>>536079

> He is teaching that the conversion of the Jewish nation is a sign of the end times.

I'm not seeing this, and St Chrysostom in his homily on this passage writes

> But he stands by the feeble party, and gives assistance to the distressed one. But see also even in his favors to them, how he solaces them in words only. 「For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,」 (and what is this to the Jews?) 「what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?」 Yet even this was no boon to them, unless they had been received. But what he means is to this effect. If in anger with them He gave other men so great gifts, when He is reconciled to them what will He not give? But as the resurrection of the dead was not by the receiving of them, so neither now is our salvation through them.

>So calling in this passage by the names of the first-fruit and root Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, the prophets, the patriarchs, all who were of note in the Old Testament; and the branches, those from them who believed. Then since the fact met him that many had disbelieved, observe how he undermines (ὑ ποτέμνεται, see p. 345) it again, and says,

And on the cutting off, St Chrysostom writes

>「For if God spared not the natural branches,」 and then he does not say, neither will He spare you, but 「take heed, lest He also spare not you.」 So paring (ὑ ποτεμνόμενος) away the distasteful from his statement, representing the believer as in the struggle, he at once draws the others to him, and humbles these also

I don't see how you get St Paul as writing nations because Romans was written to the faithful at Rome, not to Rome the empire, and so it makes no sense for him to say "I am speaking to you gentiles" as to mean "to gentile nations" when he has never addressed it in such a way before this chapter, and it does not make sense to say such, because the statement

>you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,

Now if this was referring to nations and not individuals it would mean a nation had converted, but no such conversion had taken place. Rome was still pagan as was every other nation. This can only be understood in the sense of individuals being grafted in and cut off, and not of nations being grafted in or cut off.


a7462a No.536093

>>536079

>What is the house?

According to this text it is manservants and maidservants.

>It can also be the body

No it can't, because in this text it is household, meaning family and/or property.

>According to you

To be in Christ is to be counted in Christ. That is what in means here

>judged based on their actions

Yes, reprobates are judged based on their actions.

>What exegesis?

The exegesis you ignored when you dismissed my view

>I suppose it's based on Romans 4

It's based on Romans 7. Paul tells us that the law is only binding on a living person, and that through Christ we are have died to the law, so therefore there is no condemnation for us because we have already been punished in Christ.

>The alternative brought up in the previous verse would make God a debtor to man

If God's grace requires co-operation He is a debtor to man. If I am a bum, and a rich man comes to me and takes pity on me and gives me a job, that is pure grace, I did not deserve the job offer. But if I take the job and do it now it is merit and I am owed the payment.

>was nothing in comparison to being reckoned righteous by faith which Abraham received before his circumcision

It was nothing at all. Circumcision had nothing to do with his justification because he was justified by faith alone before any works of the law.

>Now the blessing pronounced on the man whom God reckons this righteousness is this

The blessing is the reckoning of righteousness apart from works. "Pronounces" I feel is a terrible translation, because it implies activity on David's part. David says "Blessed is", not "I bless". All Paul is saying is that David is describing this blessing, not giving it himself. And the blessing he describes according to Paul is the reckoning of righteousness apart from works. This is why he says "whose sins are covered", because their sins (past, present and future) are perfectly covered over by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, not removed by an infused righteousness.

>This is taken from Psalm 32

I must point out that you are going back to Paul's prooftext to develop an interpretation independent of Paul's to come back and argue against the plain meaning of Paul's own words. Your argument is with Paul, not me.

>Another useful psalm on this topic is Psalm 51

This has what relevancy to Paul's interpretation of Psalm 32? None whatsoever

>So the same topic, but there is still a bearing of punishment

David does not claim to have been condemned again after being justified, he merely describes when he repented unto life.

>So the blessedness is the forgiveness of sins

Forgiveness from what? The imputation of righteousness, which covers the sins and blots out transgressions.

>>536080

>I'm not seeing this

Their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, because by their rejection the apostles went to the Gentiles. Their acceptance meaning life from the dead can only mean their acceptance brings the ressurection of the quick and the dead, as a sign ushering in the end.

>I don't see how you get St Paul as writing nations because Romans was written to the faithful at Rome, not to Rome the empire, and so it makes no sense for him to say "I am speaking to you gentiles" as to mean "to gentile nations" when he has never addressed it in such a way before this chapter

He begins the chapter saying "For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin". He describes the nation he is a member of.

>Now if this was referring to nations and not individuals it would mean a nation had converted, but no such conversion had taken place. Rome was still pagan as was every other nation

Of course, at that time, but we should not force time into this text. Paul could clearly see the way the wind was blowing, he knew whole nations would convert. This text must be understood as addressing all nations which convert, and a warning to them. (Of course, this does not bar it from being a warning also to those Gentiles at Rome in those days, since Paul did not know when Rome would convert.)


ec9847 No.536096

>>536060

>You just altered the word of God.

Because you cannot read and you need to be pointed with finger for otherwise you do not understand simple rules of grammar.

Look. Now I say four words: bread is from wheat.

The words that I speak, they are true.

Now, what words are true? What words did I meant when I said "the words" and "they"?

Really though, five years olds learn how to use pronouns. Why can't you?

>Alright fine. You will notice Jesus Christ just told us He is the bread of life.

And that we must eat his flesh, yes. We do it actually like every sunday at least.

>How can these things be true?

Because he is God and God don't lie.

> If believing on Him (John 6:47) is the same as eating of this bread (John 6:50).

It's not. You are just cannot understund simple concepts.

Look, if I say that I believe on, let's say, my boss who say that if we believe on him we will profit big league, and then his Boss say that we must work hard to profit big league then it's clear for anyone with living brain cells that I, as beliving on my boss will work hard for I belive on him and thus I do what he commands.

Sure, it's easier to believe on guy that you see every day when he tells you to do stuff, than in God-Man from ancient times who tells you to eat his flesh. But this is why faith is gift from Father. So we can do it.

>He just got done telling you they are the same thing. And I didn't have to insert one part of scripture into another like you did to show it. I just posted five verses with no interruptions.

And I do not need interaptius for I understand simple use of pronouns.

>Believing on Christ=having eternal life

>Christ tells that he is Bread.

<I belive on Christ, I belive he is Bread

>Christ tells that we can eat this Bread

<I belive on Christ, I belive we can eat this Bread

>Christ tells us that eating this bread=having eternal life

<I belive on Christ, I belive that eating this bread=haveing eternal life

If I do not belive that eating this bread=having eternal life or that this bread is not his very flesh then I do not belive on Christ for I place judgment of my flesh above his words that are spirit and life.

Its really simple. And majority of people who read it, gets it, in any given time period.

> Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.

Start to belive in Christ when you say stuff to you.

In the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also


d996a0 No.536127

>>536038

This interpretation makes you seem like a Jehovah's Witness. It takes some real perverted thinking to say that both the branches and the fruit are both people. Fruit don't turn into branches. How could you say: a branch produces fruit (which is a new believer), and then that new believer becomes a branch which produces more fruits? That doesn't make any sense. Also, isn't soul-winning a WORK? If your status on the vine is determined by the amount of people you can convert, then doesn't that put you back in the realm of works?

> Like in Matthew 7 the trees are the prophets and the fruit is who they get saved.

Then let's look at Matthew 7:

<>“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.

This wouldn't make any sense if the fruits were converts. You think that a bad fruit means a convert who doesn't believe the right stuff? If that's the case, how can you tell by looking at them? When Jesus said this, it is quite obvious that He was saying that if you see them doing bad works, you can tell that they are bad people because good people don't do bad works and bad people don't do good works.

<>“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many wonderful works?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you WHO WORK INIQUITY.’

So, essentially, if they do bad works, they will be cast away, but if they do the will of the Father (good works) they will be welcomed into heaven.

Aren't you guys for "letting the Bible interpret itself," or whatever?

<>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

The fruit are acts of the will and attributes, not converts. If you (the branch) are producing good fruit, you will be identified by your love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness (all good works – faithfulness is just ONE fruit), and self-control (avoiding bad works).


d996a0 No.536129

>>536044

<>Even the demons BELIEVE that–and shudder.

<>All the dead were judged according to their DEEDS.

<>Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's WORKS, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning.

<>Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. DO what it says.

<>WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling, For God is one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

<>For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done is his body, according to that he hath DONE, whether it be good or bad.

<>For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has DONE.


854226 No.536131

>>536096

>who tells you to eat his flesh.

He also equates believing his word with eating his flesh in John 6:47-50 and tells you the flesh profiteth nothing in John 6:63, meaning it's not physical bread that profits you. So therefore you aren't believing his word, only taking one part out of context and ignoring the rest.

John 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Proverbs 4:4

He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

John 15:7

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

1 Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

>>536129

<>Even the demons BELIEVE that–and shudder.

Believe what?

<>All the dead were judged according to their DEEDS.

<>All the dead

<>dead

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

>who judges impartially according to each one's WORKS,

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


4680d8 No.536145

>>536093

>To be in Christ is to be counted in Christ. That is what in means here

This does not mean a non-imputation of sins. It is only the language of non-imputation according to you.

>Yes, reprobates are judged based on their actions.

No, everybody. Even the just who go to eternal life, see Matthew 25:31-46

>It's based on Romans 7. Paul tells us that the law is only binding on a living person, and that through Christ we are have died to the law, so therefore there is no condemnation for us because we have already been punished in Christ.

Romans 7 does not say anything about not being responsible for your sins. You said

>Hence, having died to the law through Christ, it is no longer binding on us, we are not under the law but under grace, and because the law has forgotten our existence having satisfied its wrath, our sins are not imputed to us.

However no where does St Paul say the final part, that our sins are not imputed to us. That text does not exist in romans 7. In Romans 8 Paul continues talking about his struggle, and he writes

>But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.

So even the mortal body that in romans 7 St Paul says is captive to sin is given life and no longer dead because of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. And he further states, having said how his flesh is now alive thanks to the Spirit, that

>So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

He says

>if you live according to the flesh

>You will die

BUT

>if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body

>you will live

How can this language give a non-imputation of sins when he states we need to put to death the deeds of the body, the sins we commit, to live? The language you want just doesn't exist in Romans 7 or 8.


4680d8 No.536146

>>536145

>If God's grace requires co-operation He is a debtor to man. If I am a bum, and a rich man comes to me and takes pity on me and gives me a job, that is pure grace, I did not deserve the job offer. But if I take the job and do it now it is merit and I am owed the payment.

We receive grace for grace, the grace of sanctification, which leads to eternal life, for the grace of salvation, which is eternal life.

>It was nothing at all. Circumcision had nothing to do with his justification because he was justified by faith alone before any works of the law.

Yes, that is St Pauls point.

>The blessing is the reckoning of righteousness apart from works

No, the text says

>So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

So David says about the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works that he also has this blessing given by God, which is the forgiveness of sins by grace.

>works. This is why he says "whose sins are covered", because their sins (past, present and future) are perfectly covered over by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, not removed by an infused righteousness.

The text does not support that. The whole basis of your argument is the translation of a single word, which not even protestant bibles attempt to defend as impute anymore, because the wording just doesn't exist.

>I must point out that you are going back to Paul's prooftext to develop an interpretation independent of Paul's to come back and argue against the plain meaning of Paul's own words. Your argument is with Paul, not me.

I'm trying to show you where you go wrong and misunderstand David and Paul.

>This has what relevancy to Paul's interpretation of Psalm 32? None whatsoever

I just wanted to explain the "apart from works" more clearly and under what conditions it applies, which is the contrition and confession of sins.

>Forgiveness from what? The imputation of righteousness, which covers the sins and blots out transgressions.

The text does not say such, and does not mean such.

>Their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, because by their rejection the apostles went to the Gentiles. Their acceptance meaning life from the dead can only mean their acceptance brings the ressurection of the quick and the dead, as a sign ushering in the end.

You say it can only mean, but it seems to me St Chrysostom had a good explanation and he didn't mention anything like this. So why do you say "can only mean" when nothing about that wording really proves such?

>He begins the chapter saying "For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin". He describes the nation he is a member of.

He talks about individuals in that nation, just as he describes himself as one such individual.

>This text must be understood as addressing all nations which convert, and a warning to them

Why "must it be understood" in such a way? The text does not naturally point to that. It only "must be understood" in such a way when the alternative would destroy your theology, but that isn't a reason to require the interpretation that way. Nowhere else in romans does he do this, and it's very unconvincing that he does it here. If he had addressed Romans to anyone but

>all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:

Then I would agree. But the people he is talking about in the epistle are identified as no one else but these people, and the wording of romans 11 doesn't support changing who that group is to nations.


4680d8 No.536162

>>536146

I think it's now worthwhile to explain what actually saves you, and show that this is not the non-imputation of sins. Fortunately, St Paul makes a nice explanation of this in Titus 3

>4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is sure.

So let's walk through this for your benefit.

>4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,

Before Christ appeared salvation was not possible. Even the good of the old testament like Abraham did not go to heaven but were stuck waiting for Christ to lead them there

>5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

We are saved not based on anything we have done to earn in, it is by His mercy. The means by which He saves is regeneration, sanctification, it is through the process of sanctification that you reach eternal life.

> which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior

This is poured out upon you, it is an internal attribute, an infusion, not an imputation, for if it was an imputation of external righteousness as protestants maintain, it would not be poured out upon us, but exist external of us. Further, it is not possible to be saved "by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" and to be saved by imputed righteousness, for this are contrary in direction, one calls you so while the other makes you so. Protestants recognize these are not the same, I'll cite the Westminster confession of faith on justification

> Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies; not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;

Emphasis mine. Now, the confession goes on further to state

>Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification

The protestant position, your position, thus contradicts scripture for the instrument of justification, the means by which God saves, is not the imputed righteousness but sanctification, which, again is shown in titus 3 to be an infusion, something worked within the believer, while the protestant position holds

>He also freely justifies; not by infusing righteousness into them

And the Westminster confession off faith further goes on in to discuss sanctification, which says on the topic

>They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally

and further on it says

>through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome

Thus the confession of faith recognizes that sanctification is internal and infused into the person, it marks a fundamental change in the believer, "having a new heard, and a new spirit created in them".

The position of imputed righteousness is thus further refuted, as it contradicts scripture.


a7462a No.536211

>>536145

>This does not mean a non-imputation of sins

You're right, it means imputation of righteousness, which brings non-imputation of sins.

>No, everybody. Even the just who go to eternal life, see Matthew 25:31-46

The saints will certainly be judged for their deeds, but their justification will be based solely on the work of Christ. Re-read that passage without reading your theology into it.

<Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

They are already blessed (justified), because this kingdom was prepared for them from the foundation of the world. When Christ lists their righteous deeds, this is as a congratulation, praise for fighting the good fight, being faithful servants. This does not factor into their rightstanding with God whatsoever.

>Romans 7 does not say anything about not being responsible for your sins

It talks about the law, and being judged by the law.

>However no where does St Paul say the final part, that our sins are not imputed to us

Well, ignoring the fact he begins the discussion with the assertion laws are not binding on the dead (which would include the punishment for breaking said laws), this is his conclusion in Romans 8:1.

>So even the mortal body that in romans 7 St Paul says is captive to sin is given life and no longer dead because of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him

Yes, that's correct, but Paul begins that discussion in 7:15.

>How can this language give a non-imputation of sins when he states we need to put to death the deeds of the body, the sins we commit, to live?

I think your interpretation here is so far in our discussion the best example of one's preconceptions completely changing the meaning of scripture. You have taken a description of what saints and sinners do and turned it upside down into a prescription of how to become a saint or sinner. Your argument, that Paul teaches we must put to death the deeds of the flesh to be saved, would be quite strong, if not for the fact immediately before this he says

<You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Thus, those who walk according to the flesh and those who work according to the Spirit are kinds of people. They are not groups we ourselves join by act of will. So when Paul says if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live, he is not saying mortification is the cause of your life, he is saying the exact opposite, that because you are in the group of those who mortify you will live. This eisegesis also leaves out the immediate next verse, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God", which is devastating to this anthropocentric interpretation.. Not only that, but if this were a requirement for salvation, then walking according to the flesh should move you to fear, because you are on the fast track to hell. Yet only two verse later he says

< For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

So Paul makes very clear that fear of hell is very far from the Christian Spirit.


a7462a No.536214

>>536146

>So David says about the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works that he also has this blessing given by God, which is the forgiveness of sins by grace.

We must wonder why Paul saw fit to mention the reckoning of righteousness apart from works, seeing as if it is not his interpretation of David it has no relation to the citation whatsoever. We must also wonder what the relevancy of this citation is to his argument, seeing as immediately after he says "Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness". It seems that verses 6-9a could be removed entirely and have no impact on his point at all.

>The whole basis of your argument is the translation of a single word, which not even protestant bibles attempt to defend as impute anymore, because the wording just doesn't exist.

The basis of my argument is the flow of Paul's argument. The reason why modern bibles do not use impute is that the word does not exist in contemporary English outside of theology. The word in its archaic and theological usage is a synonym of attribute, literally meaning "to count as". Thus, all modern bibles render it as impute.

>I'm trying to show you where you go wrong and misunderstand David and Paul.

Well, you may very well be trying to do that, but the way you go about it is arguing against Paul's interpretation of David. If I interpret David in a fashion contrary to Paul, I'm not going to try and make Paul harmonize and fit into my interpretation, I'm going to abandon my interpretation and accept Paul's because I don't think I'm wiser than either Paul or the Holy Spirit.

>You say it can only mean, but it seems to me St Chrysostom had a good explanation and he didn't mention anything like this

Chrysostom's exegesis contradicts the text. He interprets verse 15 to be about the Jews themselves, when it is plainly about a relation between the Jews and the rest of the world.

>Why "must it be understood" in such a way?

Because that is its plain meaning in light of the whole immediate context.


a7462a No.536215

>>536162

>I think it's now worthwhile to explain what actually saves you

Despite what many Catholics and Protestants today would like, in the New Testament "save" is a very nuanced term. Election, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification can each be called salvation individually or altogether, or anything in between.

>Before Christ appeared salvation was not possible. Even the good of the old testament like Abraham did not go to heaven but were stuck waiting for Christ to lead them there

Even in your own words, we see that nuance. For Abraham to be waiting for Christ to rescue him, he would have to already be in a sense saved, namely justified.

>The means by which He saves is regeneration, sanctification, it is through the process of sanctification that you reach eternal life.

Absolutely. Regeneration is necessary for faith, and sanctification is the process of renewal which culminates ultimately in the perfect sanctification of glorification.

>This is poured out upon you, it is an internal attribute, an infusion, not an imputation

Here is where you destroy the nuance and flatten out the once beautiful salvation. Regeneration indeed is not external, but internal. This is not to speak of God's decree of justification, which is based solely on the foreign righteousness of Christ.

>Further, it is not possible to be saved "by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" and to be saved by imputed righteousness

Sic et non.

>The protestant position, your position, thus contradicts scripture for the instrument of justification

Not once in Titus 3 is the instrument of justification mentioned. You have read it into the text. But when Paul does address the question of the instrumental cause of justification, his answer is that it is faith alone, faith apart from works of the law.

>Thus the confession of faith recognizes that sanctification is internal and infused into the person, it marks a fundamental change in the believer, "having a new heard, and a new spirit created in them".

Absolutely. And is this a contradiction? No, because this real change is not why we are declared righteous.


4680d8 No.536295

>>536211

>You're right, it means imputation of righteousness, which brings non-imputation of sins.

No, the text does not say such.

>The saints will certainly be judged for their deeds, but their justification will be based solely on the work of Christ. Re-read that passage without reading your theology into it.

No, this contradicts Matthew 25:31-46 where those who go into heaven are judged on the basis of their actions.

>They are already blessed (justified), because this kingdom was prepared for them from the foundation of the world. When Christ lists their righteous deeds, this is as a congratulation, praise for fighting the good fight, being faithful servants. This does not factor into their rightstanding with God whatsoever.

Rather it does, for the other group was condemned for a failure to do such things, but most importantly, Jesus says to them why they are going into the kingdom prepared for them

>35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

>You fed me, you gave me drink, you welcomed me, you clothed me, you visited me when sick, you visited me in heaven

And when the righteous who go into the kingdom ask Him when they saw Him that they could do such things He replies

>40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

And then to the ones on his left He says to them

>‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

And then they say

>44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’

Another important thing to note about the goats is that the fire they go to was not prepared for them, it was prepared for the devil and his angels. In other words, they go to a fate that was not properly theirs to have, but never the less got, because of their failure to obey. No difference in the faith between the two groups is mentioned, they both call Him "Lord". The only difference mentioned, the only contrast, is whether they did or did not do such things.


4680d8 No.536296

>>536295

>It talks about the law, and being judged by the law.

Yeah, which law? Not all laws. Mosaic law, maybe natural law, but not the law of Christ. As St Paul says

>Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

and in romans 7 St Paul even writes

> 6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit

So we still have an object of servitude, the Spirit, we aren't free to sin as much as we want, that's what the conclusion of romans 7 and the beginning of romans 8 teaches.

>So when Paul says if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live, he is not saying mortification is the cause of your life, he is saying the exact opposite, that because you are in the group of those who mortify you will live.

I know you believe this, but you actually haven't improved your position at all, and really rather just affirmed mine, because you stated those who mortify the flesh will live, and those who don't will die, it doesn't matter whether you do such things or it is a description, a description of "people who don't mortify the flesh" is "all people who don't mortify the flesh" and those people won't inherit the kingdom of God. You attempt to say that this is a distinct group from those who are lead by the spirit in such ways a to mean a Christian cannot be in them, but the premise of your argument is that "I sin, I don't have to worry about it because my sin is covered", but clearly if you continue in sin you are living according to the flesh, and so you fit the description for death. Because the passage, even if you take it as a description, says "put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit" and this is clearly distinct from "ignoring the deeds of the body because you have the Spirit" or "committing deeds of the body because you can't help it".

>Not only that, but if this were a requirement for salvation, then walking according to the flesh should move you to fear, because you are on the fast track to hell. Yet only two verse later he says

You've already made it a requirement when you said it was descriptive of those who are saved. If you don't do it you aren't in that group and so you aren't going to heaven.

>So Paul makes very clear that fear of hell is very far from the Christian Spirit.

If only that was the case!


4680d8 No.536297

>>536296

>When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

The inheritance here is a clear conditional statement, it is conditional on suffering with Him so that "we may also be glorified with Him". In other words, even taken as a description, those who don't suffer with Him, even if they have the Spirit, won't also be glorified with Him. For the text says

>the Spirit himself bearing witness that we are children of God

>and if children heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ

>provided we suffer with Him

The "having the Spirit" is assumed in this passage, and from having the Spirit st Paul introduces a condition to glorification, which is suffering with Him. So if you don't suffer with Him you aren't going to be glorified, and that's true whether you take it as a descriptive or proscriptive verse.

>>536214

>We must wonder why Paul saw fit to mention the reckoning of righteousness apart from works, seeing as if it is not his interpretation of David it has no relation to the citation whatsoever

The reckoning of righteousness apart from works is distinct from the blessing David pronounces on that man. Abraham was reckoned righteousness apart from works. David talks about a blessing that man has. One example of that man is David, who confessed his sins and was forgiven for them.

>We must also wonder what the relevancy of this citation is to his argument, seeing as immediately after he says "Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness".

st Pauls is saying "Abraham had his faith counted for righteousness" and "David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works" and he says "is this blessing for the circumcised or the uncircumcised" to point out that circumcision availed nothing to Abraham or David, it was the faith and grace that was counted.

> The word in its archaic and theological usage is a synonym of attribute, literally meaning "to count as". Thus, all modern bibles render it as impute.

None of them render it as impute in the way you mean, because the imputed righteousness of Christ was made up in the 1500's.

>Here is where you destroy the nuance and flatten out the once beautiful salvation. Regeneration indeed is not external, but internal. This is not to speak of God's decree of justification, which is based solely on the foreign righteousness of Christ.

read Titus 3 again

>but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is sure.

Regeneration here is the means by which a person is justified. Not the imputed righteousness.

>Not once in Titus 3 is the instrument of justification mentioned

> 7 so that we might be justified by his grace

> No, because this real change is not why we are declared righteous.

>we might be justified by his grace


4680d8 No.536300

>>536297

I just want to say it again because it is so important and completely demolishes your position

>5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

>5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness,

>but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

>6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

> so that we might be justified by his grace

>and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

I checked the Geneva bible

>but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of the new birth, and the renewing of the holy Ghost,

>Which he shed on us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Savior,

> That we, being justified by his grace, should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

and the KJV

>but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

> Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

> That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

<Justified

<Justified

<Justified

>But when Paul does address the question of the instrumental cause of justification, his answer is that it is faith alone, faith apart from works of the law.

<By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit

<You were saved

<By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit

<so that we might be justified by His grace

Titus 3 teaches us the instrumental cause, the means by which we are justified. Why we are justified is apart from works, the means in which the justification is applied is the infusion of righteousness. Imputed righteousness is no the means of justification, because not only does it not exist in Romans, the means of justification is defined as infusion, not imputation.


a7462a No.536318

>>536295

>Rather it does, for the other group was condemned for a failure to do such things

They were certainly condemned for sins such as those, but that is not the meaning of Christ's words here.

Jesus says to them why they are going into the kingdom prepared for them

Considering you ignored my explanation, I will ignore yours.

>>536296

>Yeah, which law?

God's law.

>Not all laws. Mosaic law

Every time a Catholic tries to deal with Paul's discussion of the law, they always assume a meaning contrary to the one Paul defines. You have to assume Paul is speaking of ceremonies but I can actually show that Paul defines this law as the whole law, which includes the moral. But it seems you forgot what text we were talking about. I was making reference to Romans 7's statement that we are dead to the law. You say that this is 'the law of Christ'. Are you sure you want to maintain that position?

>As St Paul says

Take not of what chapter and verse this is. The end of Romans 3. What else does he say about the law there? That we are justified by faith apart from works of the law. The law means the exact same thing in 3:31 that it does in 3:28. You are not helping yourself by quoting this.

>you actually haven't improved your position at all, and really rather just affirmed mine

Next time you have a thought like this, I recommend you think long about it. You'll look like less of a fool that way.

>but the premise of your argument is that "I sin, I don't have to worry about it because my sin is covered", but clearly if you continue in sin you are living according to the flesh, and so you fit the description for death

Paul is speaking of desire, of what one wants to do. This is explicit in verse 6, and is also quite clear in 7:15-25. Whether you live according to the flesh or put the flesh to death is a question of mindset. It doesn't mean you will be sinless. Now, of course, the saint will increase in holiness as their lives go on, but the only thing which puts one in the group of those who by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh is faith.

>ignoring the deeds of the body

You don't ignore the deeds of the body, you go to war with them. That has nothing to do with one's standing before God.

>"committing deeds of the body because you can't help it"

Which, of course, is exactly what Paul says he does in 7:15-25

>You've already made it a requirement when you said it was descriptive of those who are saved

The only requirement is faith. Putting the flesh to death is merely an expression of the new nature which creates faith, forensically speaking, the saint could sin to their heart's content and still be saved because they have been crucified with Christ.

>If you don't do it you aren't in that group

100% backwards, if you aren't in that group you don't do that.


a7462a No.536320

>>536297

>The inheritance here is a clear conditional statement, it is conditional on suffering with Him so that "we may also be glorified with Him"

So when he says we did not receive a spirit that we should fall into fear, what he really means is that we should be filled with that fear because it is all up to us? The suffering Paul speaks of refers to suffering on the cross with Christ, that is, being crucified with Christ (which is by faith). That is also what it means to be glorified with Him. Obviously, we will not be glorified like Christ. Paul speaks of our union with Christ, how His suffering becomes our suffering and His glory our glory, but neither in the same sense.

>those who don't suffer with Him, even if they have the Spirit, won't also be glorified with Him

Then I guess nearly every Christian since 313 has gone to hell since you have to yourself be crucified to be saved. That is what your interpretation means, that is what literally suffering with Christ means. He suffered on a cross, if we don't, we don't literally ourselves suffer with Him.

>and from having the Spirit st Paul introduces a condition to glorification, which is suffering with Him

Paul says that the Spirit bears witness that we are sons of God. He says that we are in fact sons of God, and that as sons we are also heirs of God, provided we suffer with Him. Since having the Spirit means you are a son of God, and being a son of God means being an heir of God, and to be an heir of God you must suffer with Christ, all those who have the Spirit suffer with Christ, no exceptions.

>The reckoning of righteousness apart from works is distinct from the blessing David pronounces on that man. Abraham was reckoned righteousness apart from works. David talks about a blessing that man has

That still fails to explain what imputed righteousness has to do with this blessing. Would not Paul's argument be just fine if he merely said this blessing is pronounced on those who believe? Yet the corollary between imputation of righteousness and non-imputation of sin is central to his argument.

>st Pauls is saying "Abraham had his faith counted for righteousness" and "David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works" and he says "is this blessing for the circumcised or the uncircumcised"

Yes, he raises that question, and how does he answer?

<For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

Paul uses the imputation of righteousness and the blessing of which David speaks interchangeably. This blessing is also for the uncircumcised because wherever faith is, so too is the imputation of rigtheousness. Now, Paul cannot simply mean that this blessing is for those who are imputed righteousness, because then the judaizers could easily refute his argument by saying that circumcision is a requirement for the blessing, just as you say co-operation with grace is a requirement for the blessing (Here you are on the side of the judaizers). Rather, Paul's teaching is that the imputation of righteousness immediately and always brings the forgiveness of sins, because it covers the sins of the faithful, being therefore the non-imputation of sin.


a7462a No.536321

>>536297

>None of them render it as impute in the way you mean

Saying it is counted as righteousness is exactly the same as and synonymous with saying it is imputed as righteousness. This is simply a fact of the English language.

>because the imputed righteousness of Christ was made up in the 1500's

I didn't know Romans was written in the 1500s

>Regeneration here is the means by which a person is justified

Certainly, but it is more akin to the efficient cause than the instrumental cause. Regeneration is the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit, it is when He raises us from spiritual death to spiritual life. It creates faith, which alone is the instrumental cause of justification, and it is therefore a cause of justification, though not instrumentally.

>so that we might be justified by his grace

>we might be justified by his grace

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_clause

<A final clause in linguistics is a dependent adverbial clause expressing purpose. For this reason it is also referred to as a purposive clause or a clause of purpose. In English, final clauses are relatively rare. A final clause is a reply to a question containing the question word wherefore or what for (sometimes also why). The prescription for their construction is rather complicated: A final clause is introduced by the following linking words (conjunctions): that (sometimes preceded by in order or so, or, in literary language, to the end) lest (equivalent to that not, sometimes with the meaning for fear that, both of these naturally belonging to the that category). Depending on the conjunction used, two forms of final clause exist: if that is used, the final clause takes may in the present and future, and might in the past

All this means is that the purpose of regeneration is so we would be justified.

>>536300

See above.


189c78 No.536340

>>536131

>He also equates believing his word with eating his flesh in John 6:47-50

No, he do not. He says that words that he spoke, about eating his flesh, are true.

>and tells you the flesh profiteth nothing in John 6:63 meaning it's not physical bread that profits you.

He is clearly speaks about their fleshy understanding as it used in countless other places in Scripture. Notice, he says not that his flesh shall profit us nothing.

And even if you were right, and your are clearly not,you would end up with a lot of blood to drink.

And don't get me started on actual greek words used here.

>So therefore you aren't believing his word, only taking one part out of context and ignoring the rest.

Said one who ignore context, wording and rules of grammar to read what is not in the text.

>John 6:63

And THE WORDS that he spoke to them are that they need to eat his flesh. THEY are spirit they are life for eating his flesh is life.

>Proverbs 4:4

Yes, we know, sola fide is heresy.

>John 15:7

And those words are abide in us for we listened and eat his flesh. And we ask and it's done as proven by miracles that we experience.

>1 Peter 3:21

Yes, baptism BY WATER saves us by resurrection of Christ. But it's still water baptism.


fc0455 No.536453

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.




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