/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>535568

That's what I was thinking. Because they think it's a sin to kill yourself and you can't repent if you do that.

>>535565

catholics are very arrogant and believe you must work to reach heaven, but every soul can reach divine mercy if they want so

>That would mean king Saul is in hell then.

So? Saul was wicked and unrepentant. Suicide was the least of his worries.

>>535565

>>535568

>say "Jesus is Lord"

>kill yourself

>go to Heaven

Prot logic.

>>535570

Incorrect. We believe that one can "work" away for eternity, but it avails him nothing unless God grants him Grace and justifies him. Beyond this, there is no salvation. Works are manifestations of faith.

>>535572

>John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand, save they become an unrepentant ingrate"

>>535572

>So? Saul was wicked and unrepentant. Suicide was the least of his worries.

Well it says he in in Heaven also he stopped trying to kill David once David actually had the chance to kill Saul.

>say "Jesus is Lord"

>kill yourself

>go to Heaven

Yes but you actually have to believe instead of just saying it(Matthew 7:21-23)

>>535573

>James 2:14: "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?"

Also that's perhaps not the best example since Our Lord starts off that speech by talking about how His "works" testify for Him and yet people still disbelieved Him. If we follow His example, then works are concomitant to Faith.

It doesn't take away from the fact that suicide breaks the 5th Commandment.

>>535574

But what's the point in "believing it" if you won't manifest it? Just reading the Bible and saying the Lord's prayer isn't enough. You need to bring forth that good fruit.

>>535574

>Well it says he in in Heaven also he stopped trying to kill David once David actually had the chance to kill Saul.

Also you are going to have to source this claim.

>>535579

>>James 2:14: "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?"

James 2 is justified to man. If it wasn't then that would contradict over a hundred verses

> Just reading the Bible and saying the Lord's prayer isn't enough.

Yes it is

> You need to bring forth that good fruit.

also "fruit" isn't works it people)usually about saved or not saved

>But what's the point in "believing it" if you won't manifest it?

So you go to Heaven and you still are rewarded for your works

>>535580

I'm pretty sure it was ethier Samson or Samuel(who both were dead) that said to Saul that tomorrow Saul would be with him then the next day Saul died.

>>535582

it was Samuel

Saul is not in the hall of fame in hebrews 11 so maybe he is in hell.

But killing yourself doesn't consitute sin as you are only touching your own body. Even paul himself contemplated suicide The real sin is if you kill yourself when you could have helped the brethern out of a love for God instead i.e colossians 3 and and 1 corinthians 14:26. See Philippians 1:21-24

>For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

>But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

>For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

>Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

>>535582

Also king Solomon worshipped other gods latter in life and is in heaven

>>535581

>James 2 is justified to man. If it wasn't then that would contradict over a hundred verses

Such as? Because no matter what verse you might pull out, it will not come away from the fact that faith without manifest evidence is, in fact, dead. If you love God so much and have such faith in Him, your works will show forth this. If you take this aspect of faith evidenced then pretty much all of Our Lord's parables fall apart as irrelevant.

>Yes it is

No it isn't. Prayer is a work, I grant you, but the idea that that's all you need to do is grotesquly simple and mock's God's mercy.

>also "fruit" isn't works it people)usually about saved or not saved

Fruit is most definitely works. Otherwise how will you "know them by their fruits?" Just take their word for it?

>So you go to Heaven and you still are rewarded for your works

But you have just said all you need to do is believe and that's it.

>>535582

>I'm pretty sure it was ethier Samson or Samuel(who both were dead) that said to Saul that tomorrow Saul would be with him then the next day Saul died.

Yes, dead, but not in Heaven which was not open yet. I really doubt that he would be in Abraham's Bosom, either. Anyway, this is speculative, and between Saul and God alone as to where his soul is truly.

>>535589

Because he repented. It's not clear if Saul did or not, that's the point. Final impenitence is pretty damning.

>>535592

>the fact that faith without manifest evidence is, in fact, dead

Yes. Faith without works is dead.

>f you love God so much and have such faith in Him, your works will show forth this.

Nope

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>No it isn't. Prayer is a work, I grant you, but the idea that that's all you need to do is grotesquly simple and mock's God's mercy.

I don't believe you have to do the prayer just that you should. Also asking for something(salvation) isn't a work. Also how is it mocking God's mercy? Him showing mercy to someone without works is more merciful than to someone with

>Fruit is most definitely works

nope

>Otherwise how will you "know them by their fruits?" Just take their word for it?

Look at the people they have got saved

>But you have just said all you need to do is believe and that's it.

Saved by faith rewarded by work

>not in Heaven which was not open yet

The hell are you talking about?

>Because he repented

Yeah I'm not completely sure if Solomon turned back to God or not but Saul had faith in God when he died

>>535594

>But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

No, this is referencing the fact that one who "worketh" in this sense means one who does not count on their own works "buying off" God like a debtor, as in Rom 4:4. This means, that I could work for eternity, but it avails me nothing at all unless I believe that I am justified by His grace alone.

The Apostle also continues

>Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven [by their penance and contrition], and whose sins are covered. [by the grace of forgiveness found in the sacrament of penance, "covered" by a new robe of grace]

>Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin. [i.e., the just man who has retained his baptismal innocence, or had made use of the sacrament of penance to confess and atone for his sins)

>I don't believe you have to do the prayer just that you should. Also asking for something(salvation) isn't a work. Also how is it mocking God's mercy? Him showing mercy to someone without works is more merciful than to someone with

Prayer is a work though. It's probably the highest form of it, especially when you pray correctly.

I also say it's a mockery because as far as a Catholic is concerned it comes dangerously close to presumption. In fact OSAS is presumption par excellence.

>nope

Why not? What does "fruit" refer to then?

>Look at the people they have got saved

Saved because they applied their faith.

>The hell are you talking about?

It wasn't open until Christ opened it after His resurrection. Before that the souls ofthe Just and the Damned alike resided in Abraham's Bosom and Hades alike. How can anyone who hadn't heard and accepted the Gospel be enter Heaven?

>Yeah I'm not completely sure if Solomon turned back to God or not but Saul had faith in God when he died

Again, you are going to have to source this claim about Saul. And the fact that Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes as a damning testament of his wasted youth and a life lived erroneously gives evidence to the idea that he was contrite for his errors.

>>535597

>No, this is referencing the fact that one who "worketh" in this sense means one who does not count on their own works "buying off" God like a debtor, as in Rom 4:4. This means, that I could work for eternity, but it avails me nothing at all unless I believe that I am justified by His grace alone.

So you are saying it's faith alone?

>Prayer is a work though

Maybe but I don't believe you have to it. But that would be like asking for a welfare check is work.

>Why not? What does "fruit" refer to then?

People, I already said that

>Saved because they applied their faith.

Fruits are the people though

> How can anyone who hadn't heard and accepted the Gospel be enter Heaven?

Because they believe in something else before Christ came to earth to get saved.

>Again, you are going to have to source this claim about Saul.

I already did.

>>535599

>So you are saying it's faith alone?

No, because I show forth my faith by works/acts of charity, of witness, of mercy etc.

Faith alone as told by baptists implies just being baptised, "believing" and sitting back and letting God do the rest because "I'm saved anyway". For us this is a grave sin.

>Maybe but I don't believe you have to it. But that would be like asking for a welfare check is work.

Prayer isn't just about asking for spiritual gibs. It's also about adoration and thanksgiving, which are essential. If you are not doing this, then you are not doing it right.

>People, I already said that

I am sorry, but you have lost me by this connection.

>Because they believe in something else before Christ came to earth to get saved.

>I already did.

Where? If you mean the scene with the Witch of Endor I already addressed that, and it doesn't mean anything definite about his salvation.

>>535603

Meant to add

>Because they believe in something else before Christ came to earth to get saved.

Yes, and so they didn't get to Heaven but were put into the Bosom or Hades according to their righteousness. Those in the Bosom were preached to and only then taken up to Heaven by Christ.

>>535603

>Prayer isn't just about asking for spiritual gibs. It's also about adoration and thanksgiving, which are essential. If you are not doing this, then you are not doing it right.

I'm talking about the sinners prayer thing you hear a lot of people tie in with Romans 20:9

>>535604

Then Abraham must have one big ass bosom then if it can fit millions of people

>>535597

>Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven [by their penance and contrition], and whose sins are covered. [by the grace of forgiveness found in the sacrament of penance, "covered" by a new robe of grace]

Huh? Are you literally adding to the word right now?

Romans 4:7-8

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

>>535612

I see.

>But doesn't say you have to do that stuff

No, but it is implied. If you sin it is necessary to confess and repent, and be restored by penance and the forgiveness of God.

>>535614

No, it says "will not impute sin" that's future tense so he will not impute sin on you for the future sins you commit.

>>535617

No, "impute" in the sens e that your sins are forgiven by (1) baptism and/or (2) penance. Both of these cleanse you of your sins, and you are expected then to go forth and sin no more.

Basically it means "that there is nothing that thr Lord can hold against you in the Judgement", since your sins are forgiven, not that you have a license to sin in future because you were forgiven in the past. This is presumption.

>>535568

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

t. Catechism of the Holy Catholic Church