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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: c76163cef029076⋯.jpg (59.41 KB, 640x435, 128:87, zzz.jpg)

File: f504ab82228fbb1⋯.jpg (34.52 KB, 322x400, 161:200, zzzzz.jpg)

ef3b6c No.533271

Why do you say there is no proof of God when there obviously is?

I don't remember where to find the info on the body of Jesus Christ which was found earlier, but the Incorruptible bodies of certain Orthodox and Catholic churches seems to be definitive proof for me.

c6b9c1 No.533274

File: dca4db82e4e1cc2⋯.png (242.97 KB, 500x829, 500:829, our-world-is-astonishing-j….png)

>>533271

>Finely tuned Universe

>Magnificent Stars of the Galaxies

>Miracle of Life: Plants and Animals

>Supreme Creation, that are Humans, with their leadership, might, ability, intelligence and creative power.

>this all created out of nothing by accident

yeah, sure thing, buddy, thats quite rational and open minded


ef3b6c No.533275

>>533274

If the crunch still led schools around the world you would not make this downright embarrassing reading comprehension error.


c6b9c1 No.533279

>>533275

I wasn't addressing to you, but I posted it as a general statement. Its a writing style.


6923c9 No.533290

There are many proofs of God, like Aquinas and many others show.


ef3b6c No.533292

>>533290

>Aquinas

His arguments explain that something came first but do not explain what the first thing is, just patently assumes that it is God.

Whereas incorruptibility is direct proof of something form above favoring actual Christian saints, which PROVES intelligence.

Check.


db70d7 No.533295

File: f966c32f190b55e⋯.jpg (60.68 KB, 600x450, 4:3, mummy.jpg)

File: e8f57dbbdf6d586⋯.jpg (81.64 KB, 880x660, 4:3, Hambo-Lama-Itigelov.jpg)

>I don't remember where to find the info on the body of Jesus Christ which was found earlier

if they find the corpse of Jesus Christ (they won't,) Christianity is proven false

>the Incorruptible bodies of certain Orthodox and Catholic churches seems to be definitive proof

there are also 'incorruptible' bodies of certain buddhist monks

>proof for me.

this is the problem with talk of "proof."

the type of or amount of evidence one would need to feel that a belief in a proposition is warranted, proven, is subjective to the individual doing the appraisal.


6923c9 No.533299

>>533292

It is common sense. Everyone refers to the first uncaused cause, which is perfect, unique, eternal and omnipotent as "God". It is already from above.

You probably don't even know what you mean when you write the word "God".


ef3b6c No.533300

>>533299

>Its common sense

Why life


6923c9 No.533303

>>533300

As Aquinas says:

>Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

>Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

>Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

>Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

>Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.


ef3b6c No.533310

File: fb6a4a0abfa0c3f⋯.jpg (97.82 KB, 900x750, 6:5, Voltaire.jpg)

>>533303

Let us forget that Voltaire simply liked Christianity because it ordered the masses and not because he thought god was real This is the exact sort of shit why Aquinas got so much barrage in his writings.

But anyways, all arguments other than the ones leading to "Argument form design" are pretty much true and do not need to be argued for me to maintain that he failed to explain why the theorized first mover

>We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance.

We also see that laws of physics work towards the same effect, and are not changed by chance. So why would something that is shaped by the laws of its existence change by chance?

>But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligent.

What is guided naturally towards its cause and reaches its goal "intelligently" is propagates itself, whereas what does not ends quickly with no succession.

If a single thing exists that has just happened and died without having reached its goal by intelligence, this argument is debunked.

>>533295

>if they find the corpse of Jesus Christ (they won't,) Christianity is proven false

I know well that its written that Jesus Christ returned to heaven, but, really?


c899bc No.533319

File: cd09187c3ecbd9c⋯.jpg (321.15 KB, 700x447, 700:447, pio7_dce.jpg)

>>533295

except buddhist monks bodies go through mummification process and saints do not, yet some keep the skin smooth as if they are sleeping.


6923c9 No.533320

>>533310

I don't know if you are trying t """debunk""" Aquina's arguments (or a particular one).

The "laws of physics" don't work, they are a numerical model of some observations created by us. They don't shape anything, they are a description of what is shaped.

Everything seems to work towards something. That is the only thing that matters. As long as there is the slighest purpose in anything, God is needed. Because there can't be the slighest purpose without God, things do not have purpose by themselves.


ef3b6c No.533330

>>533320

>I don't know if you are trying t """debunk""" Aquina's arguments (or a particular one).

I am. The usage of """'s amuses me, too.

>They don't shape anything, they are a description of what is shaped.

True.

But how does this go farther than adding some uncertainty to my argument? It does not instantly debunk it, I can just go a few steps back and say "Things I perceive are always ordered this way, so this would mean that the things behind that are ordered this way".

>Everything seems to work towards something

What is guided naturally towards its cause and reaches its goal "intelligently" is propagates itself, whereas what does not ends quickly with no succession.

If a single thing exists that has just happened and died without having reached its goal by intelligence, this argument is debunked.

But I just repeated my argument. If that does not make sense, I can shape my argument differently. Let me have a try at it…

You are certainly imagining animals which procreate to continue existing. But what if a germ in the past did not reproduce? There would likely be no way for us to prove it as we are, but it would debunk Aquinas argument that something intelligent had to guide its existence if it did not perform intelligently.


84c290 No.533337


ebfe16 No.533409

File: 132abacc5be53fd⋯.jpg (58.94 KB, 507x338, 3:2, St. Dionysius of Zakynthos.jpg)

File: 27ff308047ce645⋯.jpg (992.37 KB, 1704x2272, 3:4, Virginia_Centurione_body.jpg)

File: 8cf8f0985168a9e⋯.jpg (143.36 KB, 1204x777, 172:111, Alexander Svirsky.jpg)


64fad8 No.533444

File: 0501cf55122f063⋯.jpg (110.56 KB, 1200x675, 16:9, Animu pray.jpg)

>>533319

I'm sorry to poop on your romanticism. But that is a wax mask. The incorruptibility of saints is the mummification.


35996c No.533448

>>533409

>dead bodies chillin in the church

Fucking Catholics, man.


ef3b6c No.533451

>>533448

Come on anon they have a saintly smell.


ebfe16 No.533470

File: 66434f53a739633⋯.jpg (91.48 KB, 600x800, 3:4, 0463ec2e9d264f8c0cd22d960b….jpg)

File: 4dc6d2dc9fbe93f⋯.jpg (86.97 KB, 640x480, 4:3, aaaa.jpg)

File: 9d3ab48c7d3488d⋯.jpg (317.07 KB, 994x631, 994:631, john-jacob-body.jpg)

>>533448

Two of those pictures were Orthodox as well. Surely you can see how these bodies are so much different from the Buddhist ones. Coating them with wax isnt necessary at all


28db24 No.533474

>All these dead bodies

(Proverbs 8:36 KJV) But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

(Proverbs 21:16 KJV) The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.


ef3b6c No.533476

>>533474

I hope you're not a Catholic or Orthodox!

Many of those bodies are of saints that are canonized. While its not instant proof and much discernment if they should become canonized still applies, many of them ARE. If you seriously believe in the verses as you have read them just now, they all have strayed out of the way of understanding.


28db24 No.533479

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>533476

>I hope you're not a Catholic or Orthodox!

I'm not.

Video related summarizes some points about Catholics (with some mention of Orthodox) and how far from the Bible they are. Video talks about the dead bodies in the churches at around 11:20.


ef3b6c No.533480

>>533479

Okay I should've shut up, this has the potential to be a huge thread derail(Ignoring that it was derailed already)


c84030 No.533527

File: fbe2f58955f93f7⋯.jpg (590.51 KB, 700x6826, 350:3413, first way.jpg)

File: efe7ae0f17ac3fc⋯.png (3.91 MB, 1292x8757, 1292:8757, 1494776858460.png)

good enough for me


f67e8c No.533585

>>533330

>You are certainly imagining animals which procreate to continue existing. But what if a germ in the past did not reproduce? There would likely be no way for us to prove it as we are, but it would debunk Aquinas argument that something intelligent had to guide its existence if it did not perform intelligently.

The germ you talk about doesn't matter at all, and I don't see how it is related in any way to Aquina's argument. Aquinas argument is that non-intelligent things like bodies clearly move towards an end.


f67e8c No.533587

>>533479

The fantasy Bible you created for your fanfic and 87486574867837342th protestant denomination?


08d069 No.533594

There is no factual, tangible, able to be held in your physical hands, and sensible proof that God exists. There is historical evidence of the man Jesus. But no proof God the Father exists.

That's why you need faith.


09caf4 No.533602

>>533594

that's debatable, but your point is good


03e230 No.533612

>>533594

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse." (Rm 1-20)


03e230 No.533615

>>533612

"For by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby." (Wisdom 13-5)


c899bc No.533638

File: 88507832aa4ba45⋯.jpg (133 KB, 505x690, 101:138, 88507832aa4ba4588e23ce458a….jpg)

>>533444

>>533409

I know that is a mask, most saints bodies have wax masks because the eyes perish first and it's hard to look at, but the bodies are overall really well conserved.

Also incorruptibility is doesn't mean the corpse will last forever, it just mean it will take extremely long to decay, and even then it does not just rot like regular corpses.


d97200 No.533640

>>533594

This is objectively wrong. We have plenty of physical miracles like the Shroud of Turin and Eucharist miracles. Also "faith" does not mean "believing in stuff with no proof" that's an atheist meme. Also this isn't even getting into the thousands of people who witnessed miracles like Padre Pio's life works or Fatima. Anyone not believing in God at this era of information just does not want to believe.


c899bc No.533641

File: 0abd83fb6fa0fd0⋯.jpg (55.63 KB, 500x678, 250:339, 0abd83fb6fa0fd0f05473d4404….jpg)

>>533474

>>533476

>>533479

Being this butthurt because you have no holy relics kek


34ae63 No.533657

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

This was a good video, post here >>533627


35996c No.533695

>>533470

>”Ay yo Constantine, what kind of religion you want?”

>”Just make it look as satanic as possible fam”

>”No problem, let’s worship dead bodies.”


c84030 No.533775

>>533722

> Do bees ever decide that they have had enough of the communist matriarchy?

Most bees are actually solitary bees that can reproduce however they want.

God in his infinite wisdom has made the communist matriarchy of honeybees actually viable because many of the bees are genetic clones.


8ea103 No.533952

>>533274

Anthropic principle. We don't have anything to compare it with. Yes, I agree that life is quite miraculous and bewildering, but the fine-tuning perspective is not proof by any means. We simply wouldn't exist otherwise. Certain conditions lead to certain things. Just because we are here doesn't necessarily (and this is the important part, since that would be the point of truth) mean we were meant to be here.

Accident implies mishandling, a mistake. Natural forces work their way beyond our meaning. They exist beyond the reigns of our consciousness, it does not strike me as particularly odd that they would exist beyond the comprehension or necessity of consciousness altogether. Simply mechanical reactions. Perhaps the universe is simply a brute fact beyond which our notions of causality cannot penetrate - unsafisfying and in a way anti-intellectual, but no more than God who goes beyond human logic and comprehension, the fact that he has consciousness and motivation of a sort just makes him more intuitively palatable.

>>533640

Id like to see some well-examined/documented Eucharist miracles. Padre Pio is intriguing and mysterious but unfortunately not compelling enough, especially since something being medically inexplicable to some experts or to medical science of a certain period doesn't mean it won't be in the future - this is what a lot of Nobel prizes are for, after all. If does lend him credibility, but only as an individual case, as a person and as a phenomena. I would say it makes his case for sainthood more worthy if you already hold to the Catholic worldview, for instance, but from outside of it the facts surrounding him are not enough to endorse the Catholic interpretation.

Fatima disappoints me - at least the way it is hyped up as some kind of clincher. In fact it seems almost as if God were trying to leave as much room for doubt as possible. I've read a book on the subject by a Catholic historian. The accounts of the sun miracle are kind of shoddy. Fr. De Marcho for instance attributes a quote to a professor at De Coimbra who doesn't exist. Lots of witnesses didn't see anything. Only the two girls claimed to hear Mary, not the boy, oddly - though at the same time the strength of their conviction in the face of persecution and disease, if true, is impressive. I am skeptical of the claims about the town mayor threatening to torture them, though I don't know enough about how Portuguese provincial secular mayors would have acted back then. It is hard to rely on human testimony since it is often so flawed, especially in groups and where people have the opportunity to talk with each other and pervert their memories - police always make sure to prevent their key witnesses from talking with each other after an event. The predictions of Mary as told by Sister Lucia are apparently prophetic, but unfortunately this is impossible to verify as she only wrote them down in the 1950s, after such things like the wars and the revolution in Russia had occurred. The idea that the Third Secret refers to the attempted assassination of JP2 is patently unconvincing hence the conspiracy theories.

>>533722

Humans are social animals so not all need to act the same and in fact this would probably be maladaptive. Not all wolves are alpha male chads. Also dumb shit happens and evolution doesn't necessarily lead to perfection, just fitness. Consider the fact that there are species of insects and animals where the males ignore the fact that the females have viable genitals and just pierce their skin and impregnate them directly and other retarded shit. Things like evolutionary "arms race" between male and female of a single species.

Also animals don't act like animals. A penguin doesn't act like a pig. A dog doesn't act like a lion. A platypus doesn't act like a kangaroo. Not even all animals of a single species act like each other. Apes often have different social structures, some go solo others do shit like roam around in packs of just males or packs of one male and lots of females. Humans are super intelligent and have more capacity for variation and expansion, i.e. emergent behaviour. Lots of our political and economic systems start from the same roots and get more complex because we can communicate complex ideas and thus we can do more and change more shit. Birds can teach each other novel behaviour.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-scientific-explanation-of-in-corrupt-bodies-of-Catholic-Saints-Is-it-just-a-hoax


9d2bac No.533976

>>533952

Those are insects and not as comparable to other animals when it comes to what Black Widow males and Bed Bugs.

>animals don't act like animals

Stop nit picking. I didn't say all animals had matriarchal communism just that some of them did; it depended on the animal.

What I was saying was that they had hierarchies more superior than ours. Humans have so many types of governments and hierarchies, yet we haven't found one that works as well as a Bee Hive's would.

>not perfection just fitness

I'm literally legally blind after millions of years and there's a lot of people with glasses all over the world. Our senses should still be finely tuned but it is true only in cases where we adapt or train (like a war zone). Even then the blind are still blind.

My point is this, if animals/insects have perfect societies or atleast a social system more stable than ours; then we are not animals.

If we've had millions of years of selective breeding based off having as few flaws as possible then no major flaws should exist. Yet a lot do.


95daae No.534012

>>533976

>yet we haven't found one that works as well as a Bee Hive's would.

Humans have free will, but bees work in a specific way depending entirely on their genetic code. If humans worked like bees, they would revolt as the autocrat would have far too much on his hands, having to deal with species that do evil.

Second, WHY would the Christ give people a 100% perfect ideology?

He already blasted the idea of that, we already know how this. Babylon was a metaphor for a man-made construct, an ideology, being blasted to the ground by the lord himself for trying to replace him as the stairway to heaven.

You can only perfect yourself and encourage others to be so.


8ea103 No.534071

>>533976

Well, penguins mate for life and raise their children together, while bonobos just all mate with each other. To say acting like "animals" is harmful for humans and evidence for divine morality is reductive. Some behaviours we can see in animals are positive for us and some are negative for us - the same it is for probably every species. Some of the harmfulness might also depend on environmental factors rather than us just being humans. Some societies thrived while having utterly alien moral practices, like Greek pederasty. Perhaps a thing may be morally or spiritually harmful, if such a harm exists, but not evolutionarily, which raises interesting questions.

I don't know why the fact they're insects matters. Just because you expect them to be weird doesn't change the fact that they're just a kind of animal. Apart from traumatic insemination, there's shit like how male water bugs coerce the females into mating with them by attracting predators to them as a kind of threat. So it's odd in that the evolutionary fitness of the male increases while the fitness of the female decreases, if and/or until they develop a counter-adaptation. Evolution just happens, it doesn't make things perfect. Genes just mutate and . Humans haven't even been around very long, and our intelligence and social structure probably eliminated any pressing need to evolve perfect eyesight or whatever - and it's probably necessary for human social structure that not everyone is chad or not everyone is a nerd or whatever. And accidents can happen in any individual's genes regardless of evolution. Certain genes can lie dormant and not harm their bearers until they combine in a certain way in a child (like SMA). And some bad consequences of certain genetic changes are preserved and spread because they also have an unlikely good consequence which increases the fitness of a particular population (see: sickle cell anemia, which increases resistance to malaria). Bodies degrade anyway, at varying rates due to unforeseeable circumstances. Evolution doesn't fix or patch everything. What mates mates, what works works. And a lot of shit like bacteria and viruses that can kill and maim us evolves a hundred thousand times faster than we do.

Also I don't know why evolution would have led to us having a perfect, instinctual system of government (we wouldn't develop perfection anyway, just fitness, bees aren't perfect) I mean, for most of human history we were hunter-gatherers. The development of agriculture is strikingly recent, we haven't had any time to evolve some kind of ingrained political ethos perfect for existing in an agricultural, technological world. It might even be detrimental or unnecessary for us to do so, part of why humans are so widespread is our adaptability. We can not only survive but thrive in most environments. Remember that political systems develop out of ingrained human needs and our advanced capacity for creating solutions and systems and for communication, rather than shit like bees having biological imprints for queens and drones and so on.

Why did God make aninmals where they primarily reproduce through rape…


4bedb7 No.534321

>>534071

>Why did God make aninmals where they primarily reproduce through rape…

(you)


20df09 No.536777

Well this isn't the thread I wanted but I'm anxious to start a new thread so, whatever.

With both the Orthodox church and the Catholic church receiving their own miracles, wouldn't it be valid to say that both of them follow the way of God? Ignore the "No salvation outside of the X church" memes, I wouldn't separate the body of Christ over this.

>>533444

>>533319

Do either of you have any proof?


600065 No.536778

>>536777

Just make a new thread, it's probable that this discussion won't take off in a dead thread. You don't have to be anxious at all about it.


c9a062 No.536783

File: a75486684eb89a3⋯.webm (1.7 MB, 426x240, 71:40, 09f8bbd6.webm)

File: 0b775042c123876⋯.webm (2.86 MB, 640x480, 4:3, bf1a4e392.webm)

File: 1437ed63ce5dd8c⋯.webm (1.22 MB, 400x400, 1:1, 1507670901713.webm)

>>533274

>Miracle of Life

>Supreme Creation


ce1251 No.536791

>>533470

>It is the last day

>Ressurection of the dead

>Wake up on a thone in a glass case


64fad8 No.536819

>>536777

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/25/catholicism.italy

>A team of biochemists and other experts has worked since the exhumation to get the body into a fit state to be shown. Padre Pio's face was covered with a lifelike silicone mask of the type used in wax museums.


20df09 No.536824

>>536819

A poor choice by the church, but they are not outright lying.

>The local bishop, Mons Umberto Domenico D'Ambrosio, told a press conference that, when the tomb was opened, there was no unpleasant smell. "When I asked the doctors for an explanation they told me it was up to me to provide an answer, not them."

In the same article, basically something unnatural to science happened. Again, I think they shouldn't have put on the face mask in first place, but the body by itself didn't rot, so clearly, the Lord intervened and his body is naturally resistant to rot.


20df09 No.536826

>>536824

Didn't rot normally*


ec3fd2 No.536909

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>536791

:DDDDD


06274e No.537057

>>534321

That’s not an answer though




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