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Welcome to AGDG, have you ever made a game?
See also: /ideaguy/ | /vm/

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5750dc (9) No.23606>>25023 [Watch Thread][Show All Posts]

is he right?

f9c259 (3) No.23609>>23610 >>23612 >>23615 >>23617 >>23635 >>23841 >>23865

no, mobile is pretty popular and profitable

The issue is, you're appealing to normies at that point, which basically means, you're giving up all artistic integrity.

Saying you're making a mobile game means you're either making something you're passionate about that no one who matters will play, or you're making a piece of generic garbage meant to sell to dumb people.

The first is at least honest and respectable, but ultimately futile. The second is.. everyone needs a job to make money. But I'm not really a fan of people who abuse the form of art I like for a profit, so it's not something I just respect.


d7f31c (1) No.23610

>>23609

this mayne


955d36 (1) No.23612>>23615 >>23848

>>23609

That's all stuff that sounds like it should be true. Which is why you feel happy parroting it, and others will be happy believing it. But it's not really the truth. It's a version of the truth that cuts off the rough edges and exceptions and unknowns. It makes something complex into something simple.


5750dc (9) No.23615>>23618

>>23609

>>23612

basically I'm working on a Diablo clone. I started off just trying to learn Swift and SpriteKit etc. but my current product is better than most of the RPGs I can find on the app store and is honestly a shitton of fun if you like the hack 'n' slash genre. I guess I sound like a douche tooting my own horn but I think I have something that's genuinely good.

But I'm really worried about its actual appeal. I have a few fart apps on the market right now but I've been putting off submitting this one to the app store because I'm afraid it'll flop. I don't want to pull the trigger and have it fade into obscurity.

tl;dr: made a game on a whim at first, eventually got gud, now afraid that mobile = shit and that I wasted my time

fuck

:(


c8e8ce (8) No.23617>>23624

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>>23609

>mobile is pretty popular and profitable

I still don't understand how people can say this.

Yes, mobile is popular and profitable, but not for independent developers. The mobile market is saturated with garbage and the only games that make any meaningful amount of money have tons of marketing behind them and/or get incredibly lucky. If you want to buy a lottery ticket, go ahead.


ba61ab (1) No.23618>>23620

>>23615

Mobile games are shit, for the normie scum glued to their smartphones 24/7. They just download the most colorful programs from the top 100 in muh app store anyway so why bother with any effort or originality. You are literally flappy bird tier.

I bet you were already scheming about freemium and loading your game with adds and in-app purchases.

was that what you were looking for?


5750dc (9) No.23620>>23621

>>23618

I was gonna add full-screen ads before every boss (infrequent) and have a paid version for $10

should i just kill myself


c8e8ce (8) No.23621>>23623

>>23620

If your game takes longer than 5 minutes to play through a level, you won't see success. You have to keep in mind that smartphone users have the attentionspan of a fish.

Their phones are generally muted, so sound design and music goes unappreciated. They don't look for a challenge or want to learn the rules, so you have to keep the game stupidly simple and easy. Art is pretty much the most important thing, but you have to be as colorful and obnoxious as possible to catch anyones attention.

Making a good mobile game is wasted effort. If you think the game is worth anything, release it on PC or something.


5750dc (9) No.23623>>23626

>>23621

Where are you coming from with all of this? Is this what you've personally experienced, or are you just making assumptions? There are a few good RPGs out there on mobile and they have great reviews and seem to have turned a healthy profit.

Avernum: Escape from the Pit

Avadon: The Black Fortress

etc.

am I really just a naive retard?


f9c259 (3) No.23624>>23627 >>23628

>>23617

>Yes, mobile is popular and profitable, but not for independent developers.

Depends what you're comparing it too, I guess. Releasing a game on mobile is a more practical way to make money than trying to release on steam, if you're an amateur or only a bit beyond that


c8e8ce (8) No.23626

>>23623

Both. I know there's a few decent games on mobile, but it's simply the wrong platform and audience for bigger games or anything that tries something new. You're throwing something you put effort into into a market that's filled with low effort clones. Chances are people will pick something more popular/flashy over your game.

I'm sure you've seen a few of those articles pop up from indie developers, saying how it's not profitable to make games. A lot of them are primarily mobile devs. Their games always looked incredibly generic, but so do the successful titles on app stores.

>they have great reviews and seem to have turned a healthy profit.

Never trust reviews on any platform.


5750dc (9) No.23627

>>23624

>Releasing a game on mobile is a more practical way to make money than trying to release on steam, if you're an amateur or only a bit beyond that

/agdg/ told me literally the exact opposite

what the fuck


c8e8ce (8) No.23628>>23629 >>23630

>>23624

If you're an amateur you shouldn't expect to make any money, no matter the craft. You're right that putting a small game on mobile is more practical than getting it on steam, but you won't make a living off it.


5750dc (9) No.23629>>23632

>>23628

I started off just trying to get something nice in my portfolio to show prospective employers

maybe I should just say fuck it and do it anyway

why's getting it on steam impractical?


ad9257 (1) No.23630>>23632

>>23628

> Making a living

I'm telling you, you are all wrong. Neither the App store nor Steam gives sustainable wages.

Making furry porn games in RPG maker does. Get a Patreon.


c8e8ce (8) No.23632>>23633

>>23629

Like I said, it depends on the size of the game. Games of the size of Connect 4 are fine on mobile, but aren't as appealing on Steam. Granted, there's a lot of unfinished garbage that got greenlit, but most games have more than a few hours of content.

Basically, Steam (or just PC as a whole) requires you to put in more work but you're guaranteed money if you release something good. This won't work for mobile. Word of mouth doesn't work there and you have to rely on luck and marketing.

>>23630

There's been a few success stories of amateur devs releasing on PC. They all made the kind of game they wanted to make, so they ended up breaking the mold in some way.

Your way is arguably more profitable, though. But you'll have to market and pander hard to furries to REALLY get rich. It's not as easy as throwing a pitch on patreon.


5750dc (9) No.23633>>23634

>>23632

>Basically, Steam (or just PC as a whole) requires you to put in more work but you're guaranteed money if you release something good

that doesn't sound impractical to me. Just means my game has to be good and not shovelware, right?

>that doesn't work on mobile

god damn it...


c8e8ce (8) No.23634

>>23633

Smartphone users are not passionate about games, so they're much less likely to recommend your game to someone else.

Don't try to sell a steak to people who want to go to McDonalds. They'll either walk past you or ask it to be well done and with ketchup.


63d9b5 (4) No.23635>>23637 >>23640

>>23609

>which basically means, you're giving up all artistic integrity.

when you build a game purely with profit in mind, you've likely already given up all artistic integrity

and given that the state of the indie development scene (including agdg) currently has it such that it's a surprise when a game is released open source, and free

it's pretty fucking clear that all you fucks never had any artistic integrity to begin with

so when discussing the platform for which to release a game, artistic integrity is a pretty damn irrelevant topic


c8e8ce (8) No.23637>>23641

>>23635

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be paid for your work. But as soon as you see money as anything more than a means to keep deving, you won't make anything good.


f9c259 (3) No.23640>>23643

>>23635

>so when discussing the platform for which to release a game, artistic integrity is a pretty damn irrelevant topic

not really, there are simply objective realities when working with one platform over another.. the smart phone market is different than the PC enthusiast gaming market. I don't know how you can feel differently. One will notice and respect artistic integrity, one wants to pay 50$ so they can get 500 gems and get the next level of tower faster.


63d9b5 (4) No.23641>>23642

>>23637

It's pretty dishonest and illegitimate when people are often trying to sell their first major work

but more so when it's the predominant mode of activity for the indie scene. Especially given that, prior to the mid-2000's, you could actually expect an indie developer to produce more for the sake of the game than anything else. And by the sake of the game, I mean that they generally wanted people to build on the work they produced

and then you consider that the indie scenes in other 'artistic' mediums can often be expected to give their work freely

despite there being a cost to reproduction

which doesn't apply to video games

and the whole thing very quickly reveals itself to be a dishonest movement, or at least, a very shallow and shortsighted one.

the indie scene acts a mini-corporation, and justifies itself by corporate policy. It's by and far a system with no significant artistic merit.

Which, to be clear, is perfectly fine. There's no reason you shouldn't be profit-driven, given that we live in a capitalist world-economy. But it's pretty stupid to discuss potential profit while pretending it's not the primary goal in mind. You'll just produce a half-assed poorly thought out plan, doing that.


c8e8ce (8) No.23642>>23647

>>23641

There's a boom of musicians making a living through platforms like bandcamp because record labels wouldn't pick them up. Authors also have e-books as a medium now. I don't see the problem with evaluating audiences and their platforms to get your product to the people who most likely want it, but I draw the line at monetization. I never considered anything besides selling my games at a set price, everything else seems scummy and just clouds the development process.

I do agree that you shouldn't try to sell the very first game you make. You simply can't produce anything of worth when you're just starting out. That's the mindset with a lot of indies though. They see it's a profitable industry, chase trends and expect their first 'big' game to be a hit, with most of them ending up failing. The ones that see big success (like LISA, Undertale, Dustforce) offer something out of the norm, because the devs made what they wanted to make. So chasing trends and pandering is ass-backwards.


5750dc (9) No.23643

>>23640

yeah, well... which one wants a decent diablo clone with a nice artstyle and some roguelike elements?

I promise it's not shit even though I'm not exactly selling it well right now


32b6a0 (1) No.23645

He's right.

There is a tiny subset of games that actually works better with a touch screen than buttons, analogs, mouse, and/or keyboard. It's a quite tiny subset.

So when you make your game mobile, you're making sure that the people who play it are just the ones who are killing time while taking a dump or while sitting on the bus.

There's nothing inherently wrong with mobile games, if it's a game that works well specifically with a system that needs to be held in one hand and operated with a single input on a tiny screen, and where it isn't a detriment that your thumb needs to be blocking a large portion of your view at every given point in time.


63d9b5 (4) No.23647>>23648 >>23649

>>23642

I generally wouldn't consider e-books to be legitimate modes of selling either. Mostly because it's a truly awful format, with little in the way of reasonable formatting ability (from the author's, typesetter's or consumer's PoV), heavily restricted in usability, and not even consistency between displays. I'm not sure how anyone who actually cared about his content could be satisfied with such a medium.

But then, I also consider the same to be true in regards to convenience systems like Steam (though public opinion, even among the knowledgeable consumers, is still generally for such products).

Music is a curious industry however, in regards to selling.

Being the first major pirated industry, and given that music piracy is still generally accepted as a public norm, such that there closest thing to DRM the music industry ever fully implemented and got going is streaming music, the act of putting a work on bandcamp is by no stretch of the imagination a full act of selling. The music is readily redistributed freely (unless not uploaded somewhere else, which is only ever really the case for certain underground scenes, and those that are physically dominated, in that the main mode of production isn't put to disk) and it's well known to be easily found online, by both producers and consumers. I doubt anyone hosts their music with the idea that they're "selling" the music, in the same sense that you sell a physical good. Rather, it's much more a realm of "donation", where the consumer actively decides not to simply pirate it.

With movies and video games, the cultural norm is against piracy; the consumer, in general and by default, purchases the work, and must actively decide to pirate.

>but I draw the line at monetization

If games cost nothing to reproduce, then any sale beyond the money necessary to recuperate development cost is monetization. The only valid reasoning is to make a profit (either fed back to yourself, or consumed again in the development of your "next work.", at which point the logic reapplies). You are, of course, also limiting the audience you can reach, by having a monetary restriction.

and if you take this in with the notion that indie development is traditionally considered using low-cost labor (usually, a kind of charity labor), then recuperation can be expected to come extremely quickly, if not immediately (if the labor was intentionally purely for-free). Thus, the sale of any (indie) game of even remote success, in general (and only where the above is true), must very quickly transform from recuperation to for-profit selling


63d9b5 (4) No.23648

>>23647

>The ones that see big success (like LISA, Undertale, Dustforce) offer something out of the norm, because the devs made what they wanted to make. So chasing trends and pandering is ass-backwards.

And this is where the concept of artistic integrity becomes somewhat problematic, as in my own definition I combine it with artistic merit, though this certainly isn't the common usage. The games that become big successes to do so by successfully adapting ideas to more palatable formats, and by offering something out of the norm, but not by the construction of novel ideas. Each of the listed titles offer nothing new to the world of games, but something new to the world of commercial games (specifically, a strong execution). This is, of course, not a negative trait by any means, a good execution being absolutely vital to the success of any product.

But, it's vital to the success of a product. If we're discussing it's role as art, then execution plays a role (mostly in dispersal), but not a very strong one. More importantly, it'd be the building up on previous ideas, which none of these games really do. And by selling their works (LISA/Undertale) under closed source, protectively licensed and only under DRM (Steam), they limit the ability of anyone else to build on their work. As for Dustforce, it's under creative commons, but without access to any of the source, this only really refers to the aesthetic elements ie music / art style. Otherwise, the entire work has to be reconstructed if anyone wished to extend the game

Which is why I would argue the artistic goal is clearly neglected, as they actively sought systems that worked against further development (except by their own hand ... a limited monopolization).

And in comparing to other artistic mediums, one must keep in mind that the digital (in particular, video games, movies [kind of] and software) is really the only realm where the "source" is not fully disclosed by the nature of its medium. With music, literature, architecture, artwork, photography, etc, the source code is functionally the product (though architecture can make the claim that the source is in the blueprint, the blueprint can be reconstructed in most of its entirety based off the product, except when its intentionally obscured. Importantly, architecture generally also provides the blueprint openly).

And thus, other mediums tend to produce by extending the work of their predecessors. Video games, however, have retrogressed. Where before, one could do so (note id games & extensions, modding communities (a merger between product and extensibility), rogue & descendants, IF games & descendants), this is no longer the case.

To build upon the work of Dustforce, one must rebuild Dustforce. From the lens of further construction, this is utterly nonsensical. From the lens of profit, this is entirely ideal.


5750dc (9) No.23649

>>23647

>But then, I also consider the same to be true in regards to convenience systems like Steam

aaaaand opinion invalidated

where's your game?


ee8306 (1) No.23841>>23851

>>23609

>not exploiting lower class dumbasses for profit

but thats exactly what we need them for


be33fd (1) No.23848

>hurr I'll just trick the normalfags into giving me all of their shekels with my bright and flashy slot machine :^)

This is what literally everyone that took Intro to Computer Science within the past decade thought. 99.99% made "apps" that got less than 100 installs, and the remaining 0.01% either hit the market in the early days of the gold rush before everyone and their mom had an "app", or they had the marketing budget of a megacorp.

There are thousands of "apps" published every day and 99.99% are downloaded less than a hundred times.

Developers more talented and experienced than any of us have spent far more time and money than we can afford into mobile games and literally received less than 100 installs in return. Is that the fight you want to be fighting, as a poor lone amateur?

>hurr I'll just make a GOOD mobile game and be the exception to the rule!

When was the last time you played a mobile game? Any game, let alone a good one.

Ok, maybe you have played a game or two when you were bored while waiting in line at the doctor's office. When was the last time you were excited about a mobile game?

People that care about games don't play them on phones. Who the fuck wants to poke at a tiny touch screen for hours? If you want to get absorbed into a game for hours, you sit down at a couch/desk and put your hands on a gamepad/keyboard and mouse.

People play games on their phones because they're bored in public and need something to distract them for a minute while the cashier rings up the faggot in front of them. They don't care about your game. They don't care about you. They just grab whatever is free on the top of the app store and forget about it 10 minutes later. And you can only get there by having millions of dollars for advertising and fake reviews.

Basically, if you're making a mobile game today, you're either fucking retarded, or you're exploiting fucking retarded venture capitalists to pay the bills with zero expectation of the game going anywhere. The Steam gold rush is long dead on PC as well, but at least you have a chance of reaching an audience there.

>>23612

Have fun throwing your life away.


14b4f1 (1) No.23851

>>23841

TBH I'm coming around on this. Where the fuck has integrity got me? Why should I have loyalty and respect for the normies who nickel and dime me?

I'm considering making games 4 profit now 'cause at least it's fun and gives me short objectives to finish.

anyone wanna make a DomiNations rip off?


32c875 (1) No.23854

My piece on this is touch screens, the lack of industry standards for smart phones & the digital markets all blow. The markets aren't catered to the hardcore either even though it's the one that could be helped most immediately.

Otherwise something like the Xperia Play would have to become extremely common for more action game developers to be reinterested. There's the MOGA too. I have one. It's clunky and doesn't exactly look flush with many phones. Again, lack of hardware standards just in Apple alone. Android is a nightmare in that arena even though I'm a fan of it.

Basically, I've given up on smart phones. They are not worth it, you sacrifice too much and get too little exposure for a game you don't even like.

You know what looks elegant, is portable and has buttons? The 3DS. I started making my latest game for SmileBASIC. I may not be able to monetize it like my bigger project, but at least it'll be better than most mobile games & good for my CV. Judge me if you like, I'm making the game I want even if I'll be stuck with a part time I hate for a little longer. It's all about gaining props and having fun for now!


9c35e3 (1) No.23865

>>23609

>no, mobile is pretty popular and profitable

No it fucking isn't, I wish retards stopped looking at Candy Crush then thinking all mobile games rake in that much cash.

Extremely few mobile games actually make any decent amount of cash, even fewer make a lot of it. Those that do make money are made by companies that employ several experienced designers that know how to exploit the bottom of the barrel of society. The vast majority of mobile games don't see any kind of success. Unless you are an expert at extorting money from people that are basically bipedal cattle, you won't have much success.

Think you know how to exploit those people because, after all, you just need to think about what you would pay for? Wrong, just the fact that you can make the game, regardless how simple, puts you leaps above these people. The people giving a tonne of money to mobile games are the absolute bottom of society in mental terms, you need quite a lot of experience to learn what makes them run to the feeding tray.


0d93a6 (1) No.25023>>25058

>>23606 (OP)

>anyone to play my game

All questions regarding PROFIT aside, I have considered making a FREE mobile game as practice / portfolio. There are a few advantages over PC:

1. Everyone has a smartphone. As long as you don't design for 5 touches at the same time (which is absolutely unplayable any way) it shouldn't be hard to get a simple game running on most phones.

2. Noone expects great graphics or anything like that on phones, expectations are generally low.

My only worry is that it's hard to get into official "stores" with a fake-product that's not actually intended to make anyone money.

Has anyone here tried this? Are there insurmountable obstacles with getting a game out there, say on app store or google play store or whatever?


99fce7 (1) No.25036

It's not general enough

>making games

It's not like someone will play them


79183d (1) No.25058>>25059

>>25023

If you don't care about profit and want to make a game as a personal practice, why do you care how many people are going to play your game?


b12e40 (1) No.25059

>>25058

I'm talking about problems getting your game out AT ALL. Not spreading it. I mean, is it possible to put a random trash game on those platforms, so I can tell people "download it from bullshit store xyz"? I'm not concerned with publicity, just basic infrastructure.




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