/a/ - Animu & Mango

>>756908

They keep on pushing the nu-saiyans so expect them to stay a bit longer

How many other significant characters are left in the tournament though? Ones that could keep it going through to the end without feeling like worse filler?

>>756944

Ribrianne

Toppo

Dyspo

The bugs from U4

That's about it

>>756942

Why the fuck are they giving these shits so much screen time anyway? Its like mary sueyans are just destined to steal the show from everyone around them.

>>757028

Saiyans all have show-stealing powers.

Why did Goku even bother recruiting Tien? Should've gotten Mr Satan instead.

>UI Goku actually having to try against Kefla

WEW LAD

>>757046

And people said that the Universe Survival arc was a good idea because it gave the non-saiyans a chance to shine.

>>757028

Yeah. I thought there was going to be some build up for that robot gods team since the seemed to have something sinister planned at the start but they've been jobbered for a while now.

>>757120

His Ultra Instinct is to protect ladies but not too much so they build confidence that they feel they are equal to men. A power that most gods can't master is feminism! No wonder not many of the gods of destruction have mastered it. Logic will not help you master it.

Nu-Saiyans would've been better if they didn't get a power up every few minutes. Cabba was strong, so SSJ1 was alright. But then you get "back tingles" and someone who was able to achieve super saiyan 2 in less than a week of even knowing it existed.

It's just horrible writing. Then again, it is dragon ball super

>>757148

You've got it wrong. SSJ2 is the perfect upgrade to SSJ, speed, power, everything goes up with no downside. What you're thinking of is that super muscular SSJ, Ascended Saiyan or something. Where they can hit super hard but lose all their speed as a result. If Goku wasn't so focused on getting his dick hard, he'd have tricked Kale and Caulifla into using that massive form and beaten them before they became a threat. Like Frieza did with Frost.

They should've had some semblance of power already, yeah. Or at least been super strong at base without having experienced rage inducing trauma like Goku and Vegeta did. Gohan is evidence that you can attain SSJ out of desperation with how Goku effectively forced him to achieve it. Cabba kind of backed that up with Vegeta beating the shit out of him in a way Cabba probably never experienced before. They really screwed it up with Kale and Caulifla just getting there through Cabba's advice.

>>757155

>They really screwed it up with Kale and Caulifla just getting there through Cabba's advice.

I stand corrected at the stages then, mostly since neither SS2 nor Ascended really were that prominent enough to diversity in memory, but I'm still going to disagree here on two grounds...

Since every Saiyan can go through the process withotu literally suffering a PTSD trigger, it stands to reason that there's some way to manually trigger the form, and even if the way to unlocking it before triggering it would be different, somehow Goten and Trunks as kids were able to achieve it.

Just as well, Cabba is fundamentally different from Vegeta and Goku down to his design - he's slender, and soft, not as sharp or rugged as either Goku or Vegeta, and that shows in more than just his design - his history as a Saiyan is from having an actual society of Saiyans to live with. Even though he was military, his role is to Coast Guard what Goku and Vegeta's were to Marines, so he's allowed within the narrative to be more sensitive. Even more than that, he's a member of his planet's defense forces, and worked with Frost, so he's worked PR before, so it stands to reason that even though he doesn't feel comfortable around Caulifla, he at least has some diplomacy skills.

It's not a stretch to say that, in some way, he could have taught Caulifla and Kale to go Super Saiyan without triggering that since he's the only Saiyans besides Gohan who could even comprehend the mindset of being a teacher in some way other than "beat up your students until they fight back," and you could argue that Gohan would have never mentioned the "tingling" since any time he needed to go Super Saiyan in that timeline was to fight the same evil which killed his friends and family or to prepare to train to fight against the androids, so he could have never noticed a difference.

They fucked up their implementation, though, with saying that it was a fucking tingle or some shit. They could have worked on the aspect of emotion by having it directly alter ki (which would have kept things consistent and gave Caulifla some way to acheive it via jealousy or bloodlust), or said it was related to the energy that allowed them to go Great Ape (on another note, don't you just love how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saiyans have tails?) concentrating and begin unleashed, but instead it's just not!ki and fucking meditation.

>>757156

Can we just admit that the retcon was fucking stupid and leave it at that? I'm sick of seeing people trying to justify lazy writing by reaching back and going "Well, maybe they just did it wrong before" or "Goten and Trunks did it, so that makes it a-okay".

The idea of Super Saiyan being a form that requires tons of strength and trauma to achieve was cool and it fit the lore of having been a form that was not achievable for a thousand years which had been established the moment they brought it up. Now, no matter what, it's a "free space" for any saiyan to keep them plot relevant. Yes, it was stupid when Goten and Trunks did it and it is stupid now. SS3 Gotenks at least had the fact that fusions are way stronger than the sum of their parts going for him.

>>757148

>People talking about these ass-pulls in these threads rarely mention Goten and Trunks as kids going Super Saiyan

Three words buddy

SUPER SAIYAN SPERM

He's the singer of the opening theme.

>>757190

Gohan was spawned from Goku with his potential unlocked, Gohan just turned out to be a freakishly strong child with zero training. Then Goten occurred from Goku banging Chichi while doing his "Always Super Saiyan" thing. I think SSJ sperm is acceptable, if only Toriyama cracked a joke about it.

>>757193

Who? Jiren?

>>757202

You'll know when you watch the episode.

>>757199

That doesn't explain either how Trunks was able to do it as a kid without training or how Gohan was able to do it from his age as well (especially since Goku didn't go SSJ until after Gohan was born). Hell, Gohan being as strong as he is is something that needs explaining more than all of this SSJ shit anyway.

so within 16 posts it has turned from "X fights X" to "If so and so gets fucked their womb will explode".

Good job /a/.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

Heterosis, hybrid vigor, or outbreeding enhancement, is the improved or increased function of any biological quality in a hybrid offspring. The adjective derived from heterosis is heterotic.

An offspring exhibits heterosis if its traits are enhanced as a result of mixing the genetic contributions of its parents. These effects can be due to Mendelian or non-Mendelian inheritance.

>>757203

>>757207

Gohan, Goten and Trunks were a result of mixed blood potential yeah.

Since Potaras are a okay in the rules, are we going to see Ultra Instinct Vegito now? Gotta sell those toys.

>>757148

To be fair, Goten turned Super Saiyan when getting the ever-loving fuck beaten out of him by his own mother, whom up until that point was implied to never have done anything like that. Was it less traumatic than what happened to the others? Hard to say. You can trivialize a little kid's problems all you want, but to their immature emotions, inane shit like getting a toy taken away really IS as painful as losing a loved one is to an adult. As for present Trunks, it was never revealed how he managed it. But knowing Vegeta, it was probably a "turn Super Saiyan or you're getting killed by this Final Flash" kind of deal, like Goku did with Gohan in the time chamber. Seeing as how the method for how to train up to a Super Saiyan had been perfected by that point, it's not difficult to imagine at least Trunks being brought up the requisite power level by that age. Goten would have followed suit since they trained together all the time. If there's one consistency in DBZ, it's that your power level goes up much faster if you train with someone else. My theory is that being around another person who is actively using ki all the time puts their body under constant stress, like a boxer's bones experiencing micro-fractures and getting stronger, except it's micro-zenkais.

The issue here is that, back tingles or not, Caulifla and arguably Cabba shouldn't even have been at a high enough power level. They should have been like your average U7 Saiyan with a power level of like 5,000 or something. It was just bad writing. Would have made more sense if they'd done some kind of time-skip and had Caulifla and Kale come out of it able to turn Super Saiyan, and just never reveal how they got there. Imply they went through some kind of hellish training, but never spell it out. That enables the audience to figure out a solution on their own.

>>757238

>who's to say that there isn't some inane biological difference between the U6 Saiyans and U7 Saiyans that makes it easier for them to grasp it

There's the simple fact that U6 has literally billions and billions of Saiyans, and not a single one of them ever turned Super Saiyan before Cabba. If it were that easy, you would think many of them would have just randomly stumbled upon it.

>>757120

>UI Goku actually having to try against Kefla

This

Even blue Goku was stronger than Kefla. He just lost because *teleports behind you*

If you remember the difference in power between blue Goku vs Jiren and UI Goku vs Jiren there is no way Kefla could survive longer than 5 seconds

I think the main point Super is trying to make since the beginning is that the difference in power levels that were established before are not really that much.

So while in Z the change from saiyan to saiyan 2 or 3 was incredibely high, now is not so much and we can see people fighting without transformation and doing kinda ok.

I think the point here with god, blue, UI, etc... is that there's not so much difference actually so is easier to turn the tables on someone even if they are like "this is not even my final form".

Dragon ball should have ended after cell.

>>757355

I think you mean after Frieza.

>>757238

>>757230

>>757207

That isn't nearly consistent enough to matter in sentient beings, and you lose stuff along the way.

Gohan had a tail and could transform, he had the full suite of Saiyan abilities, but his mind was firmly human. This points to their being not that much difference beetween Saiyans and Humans. And while Gohan was stronger than both Piccolo and Goku together, he was only unusually strong for a Saiyan child, maybe even Elite level considering his age.

Goten and Trunks may have never had tails to begin with, which points to having at least some of the tail left to being necessary to pass it on, or they got Saiyan-Fixed as children, which is likely.

>>757253

>Caulifla and arguably Cabba shouldn't even have been at a high enough power level

Nonsense. They enjoy a functioning Galactic Civilization, with all the benefits that brings. They might not have sensu beans, but they would definitely have access to Healing Pods and plenty of people their own strength the fight and train with, and with healing pods, they can repeatedly beat each other to near death for fun. Add in the existence of heavy gravity worlds and putting a station in the orbit of a gas giant, and bam. You have the extreme gravity, combatants to train with, and the medical recovery technology to match what U7 saiyans got with their various fights, Advanced Training, and senzu beans.

So its perfectly possible that, with Frost not being Frieza level dickface, Saiyans and other species have been able to train up and get very strong.

>>756946

>Ribrianne

Ribrianne is always filler.

>>757135

But in the end everyone else is just a jobber for Jiren.

>>757148

Typical nostalgia.

Also, I keep saying it, under different conditions Caulifla would have been a better wife for Goku instead of Chichi.

>>757424

That's a whole lot of unsubstantiated bullshit assumptions about what the U6 Saiyains COULD have be doing. But in reality, when people live coddled lives, they tend to become weak and lazy. U6 Saiyans became strong because they were always being pushed to their limit; Bardock was as strong as elites because he always took difficult assignments, it was implied that Vegeta as a kid was sent on suicide missions all the time by Frieza, and we all know the shit Goku went through.

The U6 Saiyans, by comparison, are like the stereotype of the millennial generation.

>>757148

Then display her strength before. Literally, you just HEAR she's really strong, then ten minutes later she gets super saiyan. remember when Vegeta was introduced, and they showed him taking down and blowing up planets?

If they spent ONE episode showing Caulifa I wouldn't have minded her picking up Super Saiyan . But then 2 literally afterwards? This is all Toei's fault for rushing things

>>756958

That's Stopman, he's going to rape all women.

>>757498

>This is all Toei's fault for rushing things

The tournament is really rushed.

>>757493

> Kefla get ultra instinct too right

Vegeta has a greater chance of unlocking Ultra Instinct than Kefla. UI isn't a new transformation either, so she can't just stumble into it. Jiren is always meditating and Goku has killed himself numerous times in an effort to get stronger. We don't yet know Jiren's backstory, so that's still a mystery. Goku has gone to hell and back and has been a martial artist for most of his life. It would be stupid to just give it to her. The transformations (SSJ) were dumbed down long ago when kid Trunks and Goten got them, but the actual training has not been. Even Frieza got stronger through training and all he did was focus on ways to kill Goku while in Hell. He's been thinking about everything he did wrong since Namek, but he got carried away when he unlocked Golden rather than training with it some more. It's going to be hard to just put Frieza back into hell now that he's since focused on ki control and you can't erase him like Frost. He's far too popular. It would be like erasing Vegeta or Piccolo.

Personally, I could see Frieza being made the god of destruction post-Beerus with Goku being made the Supreme Kai to balance him out. At that point, Frieza would never be able to kill him. I don't think Frieza would be willing to erase Goku when it would mean his erasure either. If he did, he would have knocked out Goku rather than giving him energy after the first Jiren fight. Frieza is a schemer and a bit emotional, but he isn't stupid.

From next week's preview, it looks like Goku has figured out how to control Ultra Instinct a bit. He was shown powering up with it and firing off a kamehameha. Part of me is thinking that while Ultra Instinct shouldn't be a transformation, Toei might treat it as one separate from the ssj line of transformations or maybe it'll just be its own thing.

>>757253

>To be fair, Goten turned Super Saiyan when getting the ever-loving fuck beaten out of him by his own mother, whom up until that point was implied to never have done anything like that.

No, it is just implied that it is the first time his mother seen him transform. Either way, it seems like it just came to him naturally rather than an awakening.

>>757538

This. Did some gay shit happen in DBS that I wasn't aware of (because I stop watching that garbage for a while now and skip the movie arcs)?

>>757477

>we all know the shit Goku went through.

You mean the shit that, without the kindness of strangers, friends, frenemies, the use of miraculous healing beans and healing pods and long term medical treatment, would have killed Goku?

And we actually have very little indication that Vegeta was ever challenged on his missions before Earth, and he would have ALSO had acfess to state of the art Healing Pods as well.

>>757493

She's still only at Super Saiyan 1, though, and with how much Caulifla talked about it, and how OP fusions are, it would not be surprising if she reached SSJ3 to match the power of Ultra Instinct in the rest of the battle. Since Gotenks managed that just from seeing Goku do it, it would be the first thing in a long time to happen in Super that actually has PRECEDENT.

What will probably happen is that their fight will then stalemate, but Goku will win by default because Kefla's potara fusion will hit the time-limit at that convenient moment.

>>757524

>The tournament is really rushed.

Then why the FUCK does it seem to be taking so long?? I spend half of every episode thinking about how it's dragging and wish it's over already. Every episode is two minutes of the 48-minute tournament, which means the whole thing will take 24 episodes. That's SIX FUCKING MONTHS!

>>757524

>Part of me is thinking that while Ultra Instinct shouldn't be a transformation, Toei might treat it as one separate from the ssj line of transformations or maybe it'll just be its own thing

I'm guessing it will be something "added onto" previous transformations to, in effect, reset the counter of transformations again. Seems that it was made to allow Vegeta to catch up to Goku again, since he can't use Kaioken with SSB. Right now, UI is just Goku as normal, but there's nothing stopping them from adding Super Saiyan on top of UI later on, kind of like how SSB was like adding Super Saiyan on top of SSG.

What UI actually seems like is some kind of automatic fighting response. Like Goku gets pounded into complete unconsciousness, but his body just keeps on fighting, out of "instinct". The upside is that it allows him to use his full power all at once (Super Saiyan levels aren't really "transformations" so much so as they are sequential unlocking of the character's natural limiters, which is why SSJ3 is as far as one can go because at the point it starts really fucking up the body) with the downside that he's totally wrecked afterwards, and needs a long(ish) period of rest. It's essentially in the same vein as Gohan's Mystic form, except also using God Ki.

>>757477

>U6 Saiyans became strong because they were always being pushed to their limit

You mean U7 right?

Anyway, it is just easier to say that DBS is shit and breaks the canon.

>BotG

SSJG is stupid and designed to be phased out. The requirements are lower that SSJ1.

>RoF

Golden Frieza is shit.

SSJB is shit.

Offscreen training is only tolerated as a power up for characters that are lagging behind one arc to just catch up.

Frieza should stay fucking dead.

>U6

How the multiverse is handled was a giant mistake.

All new characters introduced are shit minus Zuno.

The first arc not based off a better movie and it is a fucking tournament arc.

Super Dragon Balls are shit.

It is just a setup for another tournament arc.

>Zamasu arc

First arc with any stakes and TV series format story

Evil Goku because Super Dragon Balls

Future Zamasu is also immortal because Super Dragon Balls.

Future Trunks completely fucking failed and fucks off to another timeline.

The Multiverse is still retarded.

More unnecessary retcons.

The only reason that I read the manga was the promise of a different ending.

Still the best arc in the series

>Universe Survival

Shit in theory

Shit in execution

Shit overall

>>757571

Yeah. I concluded the whole thing was shit as soon as I heard "Super Saiyan God". From the movie.

But hey. FemBroly got made. The whole premise of it and around it was pretty bad, but hey. MuscleGirls.

>>757538

>>757540

Olibu is about as strong as Cell.

>>757253

>If it were that easy, you would think many of them would have just randomly stumbled upon it.

You can say the same thing about U7 Saiyans. I doubt Bardock was the only one to have comrades die on him, and even then their deaths didn't trigger a transformation.

>>757564

>BoG SSG Goku > SS Black

>First Form Frost > Buu Arc Piccolo

>17 that low

>Botamo > Cabba and Cell

>Mr. Popo that low All TFS memes aside, he can take a couple of SS3 Goten and Trunks punches with his palms and only get mildly pushed back from being rushed.

>Saiyan Arc Yajirobe > Kami

What the fuck am I looking at?

>>757593

>>Brolly, only he's a cute gril

Is there a problem?

Why are Bruce Faulconer's compositions so fucking good?

>>757593

U6 Saiyans are tailless, and have natural power levels able to force super saiyan as opposed to needing to earn it.

Where else have we seen that?

Trunks (kid) and Goten. Calling it now. IF we ever have an arc that deals with the U6 Saiyans and their history, it will reveal that they're a whole species of human/saiyan hybrids.

>>757665

All this animation, all this time and budget spent on something likely to be retconned. Unless every universe gets crammed into U7, which could lead to interesting stories, but DBS won't take advantage of that opportunity.

>>757665

The core audience fucking loves it. It is the highest rated sunday morning anime right now, and has been for a almost 30 weeks.

>>757674

That'd be cool, they introduce Android 21 looking nice and plump, would say the T word but last time I got banned for it You can have Vegeta play daddy with Cabba and leave Trunks behind, then in the future Goten can have a saiyan waifu and create mostly Saiyan super powerful babies that can go SSB straight from the womb, completely fucking up the power scale, again.

>>757675

Some of the scenes and battles are cool, and some of the ideas are good, but god damn this shit is lagging. Not even Z's longest arcs were 40 episodes longs, and this shit arc is barely half done if the time left in the tournament is anything to go on.

>>757677

I seriously wish Goku could end up with Caulifla and Kale. The sexual tension is immense. I'd love it if we got a Steel Ball Run of DB, but if they plan to align with the end of DB and keep DBO canon then that's not possible. Which is a shame, because alt-universe Goku would totally shack up with those two. That hag Chichi is old and busted. Saiyans stay youthful until their 80's, so Caulifla and Kale would stay prime for fighting and fucking for decades. God damn. How did Saiyans get anything done with all those fit chicks around? You think they'd be too busy emptying their balls into them all the time. Are Saiyans only interested in sex for reproduction? What a cruel twist of fate that'd be.

>>757684

>Are Saiyans only interested in sex for reproduction?

Goku makes me think, but Vegeta makes me think no.

>>757688

Vegeta's only had two kids though. Are you telling me the Prince of All Saiyans wears protection?

>>757691

I'm talking about what led to the conception of his first child, which was made to seem like a one night stand. One night stand would imply it's for pleasure and not in the missionary position for the sole purpose of procreation.

>>757627

>Olibu is about as strong as Cell.

Besides being anime only, Olibu is significantly weaker than Pikkon. Pikkon was wearing weight clothing. I don't know how other world works in DB (neither does Toriyama) but people are significantly stronger when they are dead but only heroes get to "keep their bodies."

>>757684

>I'd love it if we got a Steel Ball Run of DB, but if they plan to align with the end of DB and keep DBO canon then that's not possible.

Neither of those are canon anymore.

>>757569

He's obviously way above god tier

>>757524

>UI isn't a new transformation either, so she can't just stumble into it.

>Implying Ultra Instinct isn't just head tingles

>>757673

>IF we ever have an arc that deals with the U6 Saiyans and their history, it will reveal that they're a whole species of human/saiyan hybrids.

Nah, Humans are just weak, tailess Saiyans.

>>757627

>You can say the same thing about U7 Saiyans. I doubt Bardock was the only one to have comrades die on him, and even then their deaths didn't trigger a transformation

That's because none of them ever got up to a high enough power level. It's required both to be powerful enough, and also to suffer an emotional trigger, to transform. Bardock was probably fairly close, but then he died. Depending how you consider the canon-status of the later movie, he then did turn Super Saiyan, so there's that.

>>757564

>Base Cabba is as strong as Cell

This is why we can't have nice things.

>>757788

>I find it difficult to believe that kid Trunks was a higher power level than literally every Saiyan born before Goku

It wasn't a stretch that an 11-year-old Gohan could become the strongest fighter on the planet. How is it a stretch that an 8-year-old Trunks couldn't at least get up to the level of Goku on Namek. You can ass-pull Caulifla "professionally training", but won't accept Trunks doing the same when the U7 Saiyans already know specifically how to train the shit out of someone to reach a level sufficient to achieve Super Saiyan? Cabba taught Caulifla how to transform only a week after learning it, himself; Vegeta had mastered that for ten goddman years before the events of the Buu saga — he IS the professional!

The difference between learning from and training with your dad who's a professional boxer vs learning it from a guy who learned it from a guy who's an actual professional boxer.

>>757810

Was supposed to be a reply to >>757803

>>757788

>I find it difficult to believe that kid Trunks was a higher power level than literally every Saiyan born before Goku

Didn't Gotenks match Super Buu in power?

>>757815

Gotenks' power level honestly has no bearing on how strong Trunks really was at the time. Goku said the fusion dance created a warrior that was way stronger than the sum of their parts, an intentionally vague statement meant to suspend your disbelief when two kids combine into someone strong enough to fight a monster that could kill Goku.

>>757788

>And besides that, fucking Tien rose to the level of "not get taken out of the ToP in five seconds.

see

>>757571

>Anyway, it is just easier to say that DBS is shit and breaks the canon.

Seriously, don't use DBS to justify DBS's fuck ups.

>>757833

To be fair, Goten and Trunks while wearing a restrictive costume were giving 18 a serious run for her money for a few moments in the tournament, and she was shocked shitless that Trunks could create a blast easily large enough to nuke the city they were standing in, if things got too hairy. It's doubtful they could have actually BEATEN her, given the difference in experience, but the overall power seemed fairly close. This would imply their base power level should be somewhere around Vegeta in the early Androids saga, and that's only assuming if 18 didn't get any stronger in the interim.

Fusion is broken, of course, but considering everyone's BASE power level just keeps creeping up, to say nothing of transformations, it's not actually that surprising. Base Goku in Super could probably have beaten Cell, so base Gotenks being that powerful isn't so much of an ass-pull anymore.

>>757691

>>757693

We know full well, from both the content in the episodes and Akira Toriyama's own words that low-born saiyans have a different mindset than saiyan nobility. Goku really only does think about doing things he enjoys, and that's it. And he enjoys fighting tough dudes and eating, and one would hope the occasional dropping of nuts.

Veggers tho, he's been shown watching TV.

>>757872

When are we getting Jiren's backstory?

>>757840

Power levels and abilities have been broken since they were introduced. Goku learned the kamehameha by seeing Roshi use it once. He also learned to teleport offscreen during the time it took him to get to Earth. Goku got serious about Buu killing everyone when Vegeta was being a retard for refusing to fuse, but he was willing to let Trunks have a go at Frieza without knowing who he was or his intentions.

In general, the writing will always conform to what is needed to keep the series moving forward with the manga cleaning things up a bit. Super saiyan rage Trunks was retarded? Retconned in the manga. The only thing I really see them changing with the two saiyan women is how long it takes them to power up. I still expect Kefla to show up and the vagueness of fusion powerups to make them as strong as the story needs them to be.

>>757876

>When are we getting Jiren's backstory?

Probably never. There might be some quick explanation as to how he got so damn powerful, but I don't expect that to be more than five minutes.

>>757876

>Goku got serious about Buu killing everyone when Vegeta was being a retard for refusing to fuse

To be fair, I'd rather let the entire universe get destroyed rather than spend the rest of my life fused with that retard, too.

>>757627

>You can say the same thing about U7 Saiyans. I doubt Bardock was the only one to have comrades die on him, and even then their deaths didn't trigger a transformation.

like what >>757769 said you needed a certain level of power and I think the reason why ”holy shit my best friend died" never triggered it was because of the fact that regular sayians were pretty sociopathic. It's constantly implyed and sometimes out right stated sayians don't give a shit about other sayians. Bardock wanting revenge for his comrades death wasn't considered normal, most would have just been pissed they got betrayed and waved off their dead comrades as being too weak and deserved it.

What's Winnie the Pooh doing there?

Seriously, how low can this show go? How worse can DB get?

Every time I think I've seen peek stupid, the show one-ups itself.

> want to listen to ed 10 on youtube

> it has been holocoastered and all thay is left are shitty spanish covers

figures

>>757902

I posted my attempt to fix SSJ in a previous thread.

The Super Saiyan form is the iconic powerup of the series but it seems like the requirements laxes as the series progress to the point that it can just be activated by back tingles. At first, DBZ explained that the SSJ form requires one of pure heart such as Goku. This was a decent enough explanation; because even a society that wasn't as decadent as the Saiyans, that is still pretty rare much less one with the will and strength to fight. Then Vegeta happened. Later it is said that the form comes from a need not a desire. Unless Vegeta encountered a threat strong enough to kill him in space, it is because he just wants it. Or maybe it is just preparation for the Androids. I'm sure that Frieza is a big enough threat and someone would have gotten strong enough. If we are going to count Episode of Bardock (we might as well considering that we including DBS), Bardock got SSJ too. Cabba also got the SSJ form pretty easily too. Then came the back tingles. How the LSS appeared was stupid unless you really really like muscle girls.

Hard Requirements: Saiyan ancestry (unknown treshold)

Requirements for activation:

Anger (preferably rightheous anger)

A need and a desire for strength

Suffering (mostly as a result of being weak)

Sufficiant power level

Acknowledgement that his current "form" isn't strong enough (knowledge of SSJ makes this step easier due to the mindset req't to meet the previous req't contradicts this. Being able to turn into a great ape can make this harder because usually it is enough.)

Requirements for inheritance:

Conceived by a SSJ parent. (If they want to keep Pan from being SSJ, just say that male and female SSJ are technically different forms due to slight brain differences. Or say that she inherted her father's potential unlock. It was clear that GT wanted to go with something about her being quarter Saiyan. People cite Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. but that was just faggotry added to force a new Goku after writing Goku's final good bye. A better case would be Bulla/Bra which is only half-Saiyan concieved after Vegeta became a SSJ.

Basically what I meant was the Saiyan needs to be a certain level of strength, needs to backed to a metaphorical corner, admit that he doesn't have the power to overcome the dilemma, and get angry. Having the Great Ape form usually stops them from admitting their weakness and losing all hope. It protects their egos with "had I been exposed to the moonlight, things would have turn out differently.". Knowledge of the SSJ form makes it much easier because it doesn't involve someone strong enough to destroy planets hoping for a miracle to save them.

>>757952

>Being able to turn into a great ape can make this harder because usually it is enough

I forgot about this, and it makes a lot of sense. Saiyans might have been battle-hungry, but they weren't STUPID. Unlikely Goku, they didn't seem very wont to go rushing headlong into a confrontation they couldn't win. If they were going to invade a planet and didn't expect to be able to win, they'd just go on the night of a full moon, or else like the elites just CREATE a moon, and wreck shit. Raditz didn't expect a battle-type Namekian to be on Earth and with an ability to concentrate ki to a level to exceed his own. Vegeta didn't expect Goku to be able to use Kaioken, and his personality was very careful with picking his battles. This seems very similar to other Saiyans, hence why Frieza's men were surprised at Bardock's team getting so strong so quickly. Not constantly challenging themselves seems to have made the Saiyan's power levels plateau, because they had gotten too careful.

To a point of fact, nearly every Saiyan who has ever transformed has lost their tail (or just not had one to begin with). Many people have speculated on a physical reason for this, but it also could be psychological.

I still don't buy the "conceived by a SSJ" thing, though. Lamarck will never be right, and it's a bullshit handwave to just pigeonhole the kids into meaningless even more than they already are.

>>757941

>>757902

>It's constantly implyed and sometimes out right stated sayians don't give a shit about other sayians. Bardock wanting revenge for his comrades death wasn't considered normal, most would have just been pissed they got betrayed and waved off their dead comrades as being too weak and deserved it

No it isn't. Just because Vegeta executed Nappa's useless ass doesn't mean a thing.

>>758012

Everybody everywhere in the fandom needs to remember something about Goku.

He is severely fucking braindamaged. Severely. Massively. Almost nothing about Goku's behavior can be taken as to be normal for Saiyans.

>>758012

>Raditz didn't expect a battle-type Namekian to be on Earth and with an ability to concentrate ki to a level to exceed his own.

And we find out that Kami/Piccolo was weak shit when separated.

>>758029

Saiyans come off as intergalactic bullies with this train of thought. Which is pretty accurate really. Even with all their strength they got pretty complacent and just abused it, besides Bardock's crew who were super confident and had tackled suicide missions successfully over and over. Weren't they doing total planet conquering with only five of them? Those guys were fucking nuts.

>>758033

It was implied that most Saiyans were not birthed so family was of little importance besides who not to mix your genes with. At this point, I wonder if Saiyans even had sex. Prior to sleeping with Bulma, Vegeta should be less experienced than Goku. He literally just needed to get laid.

>Super is shit because [reasons]

>Instead, here is my hyper autistic fanfiction typed out in great detail which I am convinced is better than the real show because I thought of it

Why do these threads always devolve into this?

>>758050

Because Dragon Ball Super is worse than fan fiction.

I wonder how the Zamasu fight would have ended if they brought back the PP Candy instead of the Mafuba?

>>758041

>It was implied that most Saiyans were not birthed

Um no

>>758033

What are you twelve? Are you quoting the right person?

>>758053

The Mafuba has a better track record of success, as a technique, than the Spirit Bomb.

>>758033

>Weren't they doing total planet conquering with only five of them

Yes and? Numbners only matter for speed and taking worlds intactish. Other than that, when they have Oozaru too, which apparently adds a zero or two to a Saiyans power level?

>>758085

The Mafuba has a better track record of success, as a technique, than the Spirit Bomb.

I'm still annoyed that DBS apparently forgot that the Mafuba is supposed to kill its user. Yes, you can use it to seal away beings that would ordinarily be far too powerful for you to defeat in a more conventional fight. But the price you must pay for performing the Mafuba is your own life, even if the technique somehow fails.

Or are they just trying to handwave and say that it has a really high cost that Roshi in DB couldn't survive, but now everyone in DBS is strong enough to withstand it?

>>758089

>Or are they just trying to handwave and say that it has a really high cost that Roshi in DB couldn't survive, but now everyone in DBS is strong enough to withstand it?

Nigga they don't even handwave plot holes anymore; they just ignore them.

I wonder if Toriyama has read his own comic at any point in the last 20 years.

>>758089

Tri-Beam kills its user too, but that got tossed out very quickly.

Isn't Roshi essentially immortal post-death in db?

>>758020

>no idea about Botamo, but Vegeta said that even as SS they couldn't do much against him.

They couldn't do much because of his fat superpower, but for actual strength he got his ass handed to him easily, and if he were strong enough to warrant that weight, he wouldn't have lost from just being carried off the stage.

I think the U6 lineup was weakest to strongest at base form, with Cabba's placement being above base form Frost justified by Frost using his transformed form when seriously fighting.

>>758145

To answer that, we would need to see Jiren do something besides widen his eyes.

>>758145

Probably same level as the Gods of Destruction, along with UI Goku, and Kefla when she turns SSJ3.

So, I don't watch this shit but I hear about it regularly.

Can someone explain to me what the fuck this "Ultra instinct" mode is because design wise it's lazy as fuck.

And I ask here because I want a lazy /accurate explanation not people trying to make it sound cool.

I stopped watching after Goku got killed by a standard issue raygun.

Couldn't handle the comedy, far too many levels above this mortal.

Anyway that's how they win this tournament I bet, Piccolo can conjure stuff so make a raygun = win

>>758377

It's pretty much exactly as it sounds. Goku fights using only his "instinct" (possibly because he's knocked the fuck out) which enables him to use his absolute full strength, with no limiters.

>Piccolo can conjure stuff so make a raygun = win

I laughed.

>>758416

>Goku fights using only his "instinct" (possibly because he's knocked the fuck out) which enables him to use his absolute full strength, with no limiters.

Which is gay.

>>757148

>its not an asspull

Toriyama once said female saiyans couldn't go super, but now they're doing it.

I may be the only one, but I actually really like Ultra Instinct design wise. The platinum effect looks nice, and I especially like that the eyes always look much more 'cold'. It gives Goku a serious look. Also, the whole multi-color transformation was starting to get really boring. I bet people would be bitching that Super Sayian Green was more unoriginal and they should've had something completely new, (like UI), had they not gone with this in the first place.

>>758432

Nha, he just said he didn't want to draw it.

Ddin't matter, Pan could still restrain Dr. Gero without Super Saiyan.

>>758455

Ultra Instinct should be about Goku/Whoever just doing away with all transformations and not needing them. Like Mystic.

But it harnesses all the power of the being, without the transformations, but getting all the power from them. Using Super Saiyan, oozaru, Kaioken, and God, all of the beings real power.

>>758125

>I heard that

Source?

>>758125

>I might have jumped into conclusion but I think it explains their lack of compassion for one another. It isn't outlandish considering how they send children to conquer admittedly weak planets

You jumped pretty damned hard and far.

And alien mindsets. Hell, as recent as the 1920s and 30s premature babies were considered weak runts not worth the effort of saving, until a man went around and made a mild freakshow out of them and incubators.

In Ireland, babies born out of wedlock were occasionally just left in rooms to squall until they died at "orphanages" and "workhouses".

Also, three fucking years?! What the shit, Toriyama?! Its as bad as some Sci Fi people get with scale and numbers.

>>758541

Might be low class Saiyans don't even fuck to procreate, just a quick genetic donation and then growth in the incubator. Can't have them wasting time breeding and carrying children when they could be out conquering for Lord Frieza.

>>758520

>Source?

It was essentially a joke Toriyama made at his own expense. When he started doing the Buu saga, he had completely forgotten that Saiyan tails were a thing, so he drew Goten and Trunks without them. When asked why this was, in an interview, he made up some nonsense about Saiyan tails being "a recessive trait". (Which can't possibly work.)

I don't know where to find the interview, but it's basically Dragonball common knowledge at this point.

>>758541

Why do Bardock and the Saiyan gril look 15 here?

>>758592

Maybe most manga artists today learned to draw from watching moeshit

So Ultra Instinct is basically just a "removing limiter" thing...wow, I have never seen anything like that before.

Why don't they just give him SJW God Super Saiyan Rainbow Super Saiyan God Plot Hax Ascended.

>>758541

>I know about that. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make

Even with all that cruelty, we still loved our children.

>>758565

It wouldn't surprise me. :(

>>758592

Because Toriyama felt bad about implying that warrior women should look lke warriors and have some muscle on them.

>>758642

>Why don't they just give him SJW God Super Saiyan Rainbow Super Saiyan God Plot Hax Ascended

Its called being Goku.

>>758347

>smug Golden Freiza

Nice

>>758448

>Super Sayian Green

You mean what was literally around for the original Broly before Red/Blue/Pink?

>>758377

You ever have someone throw something at your face and before your brain processes exactly what's happening your hand reaches up and catches it perfectly? Imagine that, but for the whole body.

>>758815

What does this have to do with Dragon ball?

>>758829

She's Bulmas VA:

Well, at least she played a character who flashed her pussy to a dirty old man...

OH GOD NO

THE CRINGEY FAN ART PEOPLE ARE GOING TO MAKE

Just leave her in peace to die, don't make horribly mutated looking fanart of Bulma and her hugging or some shit.

Please no.

>>758840

It's sad that she died young. They'll probably postpone the series until they get another seiyuu to do Bulma.

>>758846

>They'll probably postpone the series

Except Bulma hasn't appeared in like 20 episodes, and very likely won't until the end of the tournament. They have plenty of time.

>>757876

Jiren comes from the Zeta Reticuli system of their universes Milky Way. He was a part of an exploration mission to discover attributes of lesser developed sentient life via rectal probing. On one mission they discovered 7 mysterious balls inside the rectum of a specimen. One day whilst experimenting on these mysterious balls Jiren accidently destroyed them and absorbed their powers to save his UFO.

>>758815

>>758347

Jesus Christ these are terrible.

>>758347

>>759279

I don't know what's worse, that forum that produces those thinks they're accurate, or that they still think power levels are used in the series.

This tournament arc continues to blow me the fuck away. Just when I think I've seen the best episode, it hits me with an even better one. The climax between Kefla and Goku was even more intense than his fight with Jiren.

To those who are finished with Super after a few bad arcs, you should at least see this arc. This is the best Dragon Ball has ever been.

Also Kefla is so cute when she's frustrated

>>759677

I'm not so much impressed by this shit as saying "fucking finally!"

Honestly, if Universe 6 wants to live they really should just have their two Namekians fuse into Piccolo at this point, having him somehow become a Namekian God. The ass pull with Ultra Instinct meanwhile technically gives the chance of Gohan being equal or superior to Vegeta and it'd be cool if the two kind of went their own ways with it: Vegeta with Super Saiyan bullshit, Gohan with ki control bullshit.

Unfortunately this is Dragon Ball and somehow Vegeta and Freiza are going to pull this off too.

>>758840

It will happen. Even people here don't understand why that sort of art is autistic. You can't stop it, anon.

>>759709

You're thinking with your cock and nothing more. There is absolutely nothing good about their characters. They aren't even characters so much as meaningless and derivative plot-device Mary Sues. It wasn't until they fused that it suddenly dawned on me that Caulifla has the exact same personality as Gotenks.

I'm still surprised that she didn't go SSJ3 in the battle. Guess they'll save that for the next arc.

>>759709

>It's also a Shonen series, not a multifaceted drama with deep lore intricacies. If you don't like Shonen then don't force yourself to watch it and then complain that isn't pandering to your headcanon.

DBS is definitively much worse than DBZ.

>You didn't shit up a storm when Goten, a toddler, turned super saiyan off screen for a petty reason.

Why don't you go back making videos about how the series is always going to get bad and it isn't DBS own fault?

>>759718

>

a

>You're thinking with your cock and nothing more. There is absolutely nothing good about their characters. They aren't even characters so much as meaningless and derivative plot-device Mary Sues. It wasn't until they fused that it suddenly dawned on me that Caulifla has the exact same personality as Gotenks.

a

>You're thinking with your cock and nothing more. There is absolutely nothing good about their characters. They aren't even characters so much as meaningless and derivative plot-device Mary Sues. It wasn't until they fused that it suddenly dawned on me that Caulifla has the exact same personality as Gotenks.

a

>You're thinking with your cock and nothing more. There is absolutely nothing good about their characters. They aren't even characters so much as meaningless and derivative plot-device Mary Sues. It wasn't until they fused that it suddenly dawned on me that Caulifla has the exact same personality as Gotenks.

>>759718

What you mean is they're like most of the characters?

The only character in the entire series with an even slightly interesting character or background is Vegeta.

And the main character of the whole series is a Gary Stu, refreshing to have someone on the other side be the same instead of "Goku is just special because...well DUH he's Goku guys, of course he wins"

Should I watch this anime? There's a lot of episodes.

>>759736

Only if you're ready for an argument. People can't decide if this show is good or not.

Animation is criticized in early arcs but newer episodes have God tier animation since enough people complained I guess. It's a good show if you love hype and aren't willing to think too hard.

>>759739

I like hype and have low IQ, so I'll give it a go I suppose. Watched Dragonball, Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT when it first came out in NA.

>>759741

Protip: Skip all of the first two arcs. Just watch the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F movies.

>>759689

>Also, when the fuck did everyone else get the chance to learn Kefla's name?

Anon has obtained what even the gods struggle to master.

Ultra Autism.

All I know is a REALLY want the androids to knock out them universe 2 cunts next episode.

>>759766

KA KA KA KA KACHI DAZE

>>759741

>I like hype and have low IQ

You'll need to enjoy this garbage but I would recommend something else.

>>759739

>People can't decide if this show is good or not.

It is shit.

>>759777

The name should be Kafla, not Kefla. That's how it should be written (the pronunciation is correct). Unless you write Kēru as well. If Kēru becomes Kale, Kēfura should become Kafla.

Everyone should stop being wrong. Of course, if you were actually right, you would all be talking about SSJ2 Kafla's delicious muscles. She actually got a little bit better. Didn't expect that.

>>759777

>>Implying Vegeta won't get it right around the time that they're ready to introduce some new bullshit

You know what you're probably right about that. Isn't the next arc after ToP the last one for Super?

>>759731

Goku has plenty of flaws, which have been explored at length through the series. One of them is arguably causing this entire goddamn tournament in the first place. And he at least had to work for all his transformations (except for SSG as that was literally just gifted to him) instead of practicing back tingles for thirty seconds. Also, Goku is THE MAIN CHARACTER. Of course he's important; we've been following his exploits for like thirty-three years!

The issue I have with Caulifla and Kale is that they were dropped right into the middle of the series with zero backstory or development, and were immediately raised up to the top-ten of the most important and influential characters in the entire show. In order to accomplish this, their power levels had to rise from rock bottom to SSG-level practically overnight. It wouldn't have been as much of a problem if this happened to Cabba because he at least was in the previous arc! But the way the girls did it was exactly like a Mary Sue self-insert fanfiction character that just shows up out of fucking nowhere one day and immediately gains the power to rival the main characters through no effort of their own.

It's worse than Jiren because it's been implied that Jiren's been this strong for a really long time.

>>759777

>She fucking announced it whenever she transformed

Uh huh. And everyone heard it from a hundred feet away despite it being essentially an active warzone with explosions everywhere, while distracted by fighting for their lives. I forgot about that Super Saiyan hearing. It's still narrative cheating, just of a different type.

>>759783

The problem is that in romanji, the "e" is pronounced like an English long "a" (kay-ru) whereas the "a" would pronounced like a short "a" (kah-ru). It should be spelled "Keru", but it's instead spelled like "Kale" to preserve the vegetable pun in English. Any way you slice it, there is no such vegetable as a Kefla or a Kafla, so it's written as romanji instead of English.

>>758089

>I'm still annoyed that DBS apparently forgot that the Mafuba is supposed to kill its user.

Kami didn't die when he used it against Piccolo at the end of Dragon Ball.

>>759802

I almost get the feeling that they've been writing this entire fucking tournament week-by-week based on nothing but popular opinion. They introduced a shitload of characters out of nowhere, and then are picking which to focus episodes on based on viewer response to them. Everyone's fapping themselves until their dicks bleed over the Saiyan girls, so they've followed them constantly. Frieza's gotten a lot of praise for his character development, so he has a lot of screen time to show off. Everyone was excited about Master Roshi, so he got a couple of neat fights and a heroic sacrifice.

On the other hand, nobody seems to care about Tien, so he got one short fight and then jobbed. Nobody cares about Ribrianne, so after one episode of being forced she and the others have been ignored. Nobody cares about Toppo and Jiren, so they were sitting on the sideline the whole time, at least up until Goku turning Super Saiyan Bwaah. Everyone hated the Trio de Furries, so they were killed off IMMEDIATELY. Same with Frost as soon as he started doing anything.

The thing is, absolutely nothing makes any sense. It's like Twitch Writes Dragonball Super.

>At this point, people should just ignore the writing and enjoy the series for what it is.

I'm a novelist. Beyond indulging my nostalgia, I use this as a good way to define to myself how NOT to write plot and characters. It's not enough to recognize that it's shit; I have to be able to tell why. Same reason I read up a lot on Twilight.

>>759817

Pretty sure that was because he's a God.

lesbian monkies btfo

Ultra instinct is what it says on the tin confirmed. Guessing Vegeta will succeed in his goal to master it first since he has crueler instincts than Goku.

>>759843

I actually really like how Super Saiyan Bwaah works. It's not a straight and simple transformation, but more like a mental state that Goku had to constantly concentrate to keep going, and it only really worked for defense (or more like just dodging). As stated by Whis, he couldn't master attacking using it because he was still thinking about how to attack. The only reason the Kamehameha worked was because Goku's done so fucking many of them (has anyone ever counted? would be an interesting Autism Goal) that he can gather the energy and refine it purely by instinct.

>>759709

>I still don't understand why people unironically hate Kale and Caulifla.

They exist to defy all previous notions of what power levels are. If you force a power level autist to approximate their power level and make it follow perceived notions of how power levels grow and increase, they completely obliterate them. They're among the constant reminders that power levels do not function in this series and trying to measure them doesn't work. Just a few examples:

1. Caulifla should have been in the U6 tournament. Toriyama just hadn't wrote her yet.

1.A. Cabba not being a pushover versus Vegeta was already a problem.

2. The muscle-tensing equals SSJ activation. Old news, but still.

3. Learning to go SSJ2 in under a minute. I guess Future Trunks just doesn't try hard enough.

4. Kale's transformation in general, her abilities, the implications of unique saiyan transformations, etc.

5. Caulifla and Kale being able to power up to the level they did and fight against Goku.

If power levels did matter in this series and were still charted, the line showing their growth would be a ridiculous steep incline. Sit back and laugh at people who try to make sense of them. There isn't a power level autist in existence that can logically justify their power increase. Well done, Toriyama.

>>759844

It's already been done for two years now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY4845Z5uec

>>759847

Scratch that; I'm a retard. That video isn't of all of Goku's kamehamehas. This one is of all kamehamehas from DB to GT/Super:

Why are people suddenly defending this show? Are there really that many muscle girl fans that are only thinking with their dicks here? The just turn off your brain argument is super retarded and has never not made everything shittier as a result.

>>759905

DBS is still worse than the predecessors. but the quality has risen greatly from where it started and for a long starved fan who still has nostalgia goggles on it is starting to satisfy the itch for more.

>>759844

>The only reason the Kamehameha worked was because Goku's done so fucking many of them that he can gather the energy and refine it purely by instinct.

Not quite. The Kamehameha worked because he could focus solely on charging it up. Because of UI he didn't have to waste thoughts on dodging so his Kamehameha was as strong as it would be if he was standing still and wasn't disturbed by someone the entire time.

>>759905

>The just turn off your brain argument is super retarded and has never not made everything shittier as a result.

Turning off your brain is a prerequisite to watching all of Dragon Ball. If you're still taking a franchise that started off as a Journey to the West parody with food puns and fart jokes seriously, you should watch something else.

>>759915

>The people who like it never cared about power levels in the first place. Other anons started to dismiss super because it doesn't adhere to their own headcanon of powerlevels that they've made up in their head since cell saga.

This. Power level fags are cancer, and the fact that they still treat the show will some reverence that it's always been well written is proof of that. These are the same fags who hate the Buu saga for taking Dragon ball back to its comedic roots as a response to the inconsistent, badly written drama in the Cell arc that was played totally straight.

>>759929

>Goku, Vegeta and Freeza would have eliminated everyone except Hit, Toppo (the best Pride Trooper, if you ask me), Jiren and Dyspo fucking immediately, if they didn't do that. It wouldn't have been a real tournament, it would have been the Cell Games all over again.

Or they could of had strong guys go after strong guys, mid guys go after mid guys, and low guys go after low guys with a few shakeups inbetween. This isn't rocket science. Not everyone had to be god tier in the tournament.

Seeing some low tiers with extremely odd and tricky powers knocking off a strong guy would have been great to see. Having a bunch of mid guys team up to fight the strong guys would have been great. Having a strong guy go crazy and fuck up a quarter of the fighters would have been great.

Instead we're left with a confusing haze of stupid bullshit that isn't at all consistent with the rest of the franchise.

Do you think they'll eventually make Goku more powerful than Zeno?

>>759933

At least we got Roshi rolling a bunch of tricksters. His episodes really captured what a lot of people wanted.

>>759936

Yes

>>759936

Perfected Super Ultra Instinct

JUBAIDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>759933

I thought we'd get Gohan's squad doing a lot more as a team before breaking into smaller groups. Krillin and Tien teaming up for an episode would have been fun. Get a Turtle and Crane crossover.

>>759905

>Are there really that many muscle girl fans that are only thinking with their dicks here?

I just hope it's only one retard that just continuously posts trying to whiteknight his shitfu, but I don't know.

>>759989

It's the first time one of them has actually looked like a real saiyan, and it will probably be the last.

>>759744

Frieza just wants Goku to deal with Jiren so that he can take Goku out afterwards.

Hopefully the really end fight will be Vegeta vs Frieza and whatever secret ability he's probably been hiding.

You faggots don't happen to know the name of the song at 2:06? It happens to be my favorite fighting song of DBZ.

>>760087

Never mind, seems to be called Doragon Boru Zetto

>Been looking for the name for at least 4 years

>Found it just when I fucking post about it

And yet, it seems to be impossible to find because it shares the name with the fucking anime.

>>759845

>1.A. Cabba not being a pushover versus Vegeta was already a problem

Not a problem, he could have been, you know, training super hardcore most of the time, with access to a galactic civilization and advanced technology.

>3. Learning to go SSJ2 in under a minute. I guess Future Trunks just doesn't try hard enough

Probably not, given that SSJ2 is, or was, literally just a form of mastering SuperSaiyan

>4. Kale's transformation in general, her abilities, the implications of unique saiyan transformations

Was not explored enough. Remove Kale, keep Caulifla, make both Caulifla and Cabba bulkier and stronger appearing.

>There isn't a power level autist in existence that can logically justify their power increase.

It could have worked had Cabba been initialy portrayed as, in base form, slightly stronger than Vegeta, with Vegeta having an edge in a certain kind of battle experience

>>759989

It would be better if when she tried going super saiyan as a fuse, she went BERSERK Saiyan and completely changed personalities.

>>760037

mate she's pretty much dead at this point

>>760089

>There isn't a power level autist in existence that can logically justify their power increase.

I'm going to be autistic and remind you that both types of fusion increase power by (User+User)*1.5, I mean fuck Goten and Trunks are each probably weaker than Kale and Caulifla and they became the most powerful character in the entire canon for a short bit, and also with people calling bullshit on Kelfa's SS2, remember Gotenks has SS3 for some reason

>>760108

Look dude, Kefla in SSJ form managed to knock out Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken x20 Goku with a single kick. If you're actually trying to say that Kefla isn't a special snowflake that got power up the ass to a level that dwarfs Gotenks, you should probably cut off your balls before they turn you iredeemably insane. Your own fusion calculation proves that Kefla's fusion just works at a special snowflake level, since it's not increased by 1.5 but by tens of times.

>>760089

>Not a problem, he could have been, you know, training super hardcore most of the time, with access to a galactic civilization and advanced technology.

The problem is that we don't know any of that. If you subtract Hit from the U6 team who were selected to be the best from that universe, you have Frost and Cabba left as top fighters. Frost could only hope to win by cheating and likely did not exceed pre-Android Saga level of power as Piccolo was on his way to an easy victory before getting drugged. This leaves Cabba who is more or less above Frost's level and then somehow a threat after learning SSJ.

>Probably not, given that SSJ2 is, or was, literally just a form of mastering SuperSaiyan

Not exactly. Daizenshuu, the guide books created after DB/Z ended says it's basically SSJ x 2 in terms of power. It took Gohan the hyperbolic time chamber to obtain it; goku and vegeta eventually got it between the cell and buu saga. Kale got it under a minute.

>Was not explored enough.

Even if explored/expanded upon it wouldn't justify what we got.

>Remove Kale, keep Caulifla, make both Caulifla and Cabba bulkier and stronger appearing.

Too late for that.

>It could have worked had Cabba been initialy portrayed as, in base form, slightly stronger than Vegeta, with Vegeta having an edge in a certain kind of battle experience

It's too late anon. The damage is done. It's best to sit back and watch and hope it gets sillier.

>>760108

>fusion increase power by (User+User)*1.5

They never state this in the show and Ive never seen this mentioned in an interview or guide. Stop posting your retarded headcanon as fact.

So you know how Whis said that Holy hasn't mastered attack unconsciously yet and Vegeta said he's going to learn Ultra Instinct. Do you think Toei might hook up Vegeta and actually give him that ability, to attack unconsciously? It'd make perfect sense, Vegeta always goes balls first in attacking.

Or am I giving Toei too much credit and I'm like the YouTube retards who thought Vegeta already had UI

>>760236

>youtube retards

the answer is self evident. However, Vegeta is certainly deserving.

>>760239

It wouldn't be that crazy, he did relax with his family like Whis recommended. Seriously though, they need to change up the formula at least fucking once. Like turning it on its head, giving Vegeta the win. Like what they did with Gohan, and people love the Cell Arc

>>760243

>>760239

>Giving Vegeta anything

It's like you didn't realize we are trapped in the Goku show. I agree with you guys though.

The hypest moments in DBZ after namek for me were Vegeta showing up and straight up murdering Android 19 as a super saiyan and him firing off a final flash that could have killed Cell with a direct hit.

Back when we didn't know if he was really a good guy but he was surpassing Goku in his few appearances it was really tense. We were just waiting for the moment when Vegeta and Goku would have their super saiyan fight and blow everything up.

>>760258

It would be less of an asspull then caulifla learning ss2 literally minutes after learning what a super saiyan was

>>760236

>Vegeta attack unconsciously

>Goku dodges

>Fusion they beat Beerus

That could either be cool, or it'll be a fucking mess.

>>760271

Just an idea on how they can do it other than oh yeah Vegeta got it too off screen

>>759744

>Frieza

Being real, I hope Frieza does something either really sinister or really redeeming and doesn't just pulls some retarded chronic backstabbing syndrome bullshit that gets him shafted immediately, like his first death on Namek. So far they have been good about him having actually learned from previous mistakes. If this isn't a redemption arc for Frieza in disguise I either want to see him pull some serious shit that becomes the next story arc or see him go full anithero as he more or less has been this arc.

>>759792

A true Mary-Sue would have beaten Goku. Caulifla is sex-swap goku from another universe, which as dumb as that sounds isn't so bad and Kale is sex-swap Brolly. As retarded as this sounds, it wasn't done horribly. Since Legendary Super Sayajin power is kind of an x factor it was actually a good way to throw what we know about SSJ forms off kilter, which was pretty fun and gave Goku a good preliminary fight before butting heads with Jiren again. Also expecting a ultra instinct fusion between Vegeta and Goku before this is all over since the door has been opened to fusions again.

>>760087

I've sometimes heard the song called "Piccolo Fights Sansho" because it first played in Movie 1 when exactly that happened.

>>760108

> I'm going to be autistic and remind you that both types of fusion increase power by (User+User)*1.5,

Last time I watched the show, Potara fusion was explicitly stronger than the fusion dance, at the cost of being permanent.

>>760283

I mean what can Vegeta really do?

As far as i understand Goku got it because he spirit bombed himself, and learned it like that.

How would Vegeta do it? Final flash himself? I think this whole unconsciously thing is weird. He is for sure going to reach ultra instinct but maybe they'll explain it better.

>>760315

The permanent fusion thing was recommend in the black arc

>>760128

>Frost could only hope to win by cheating and likely did not exceed pre-Android Saga level of power as Piccolo was on his way to an easy victory before getting drugged

It was shit writing that he was written like that.

>>760118

Kaioken being combined with super saiyan lue was a poor decision, should have had Vegeta using kaioken on top of a SuperSaiyan form.

>>760128

>Too late for that.

>>It could have worked had Cabba been initialy portrayed as, in base form, slightly stronger than Vegeta, with Vegeta having an edge in a certain kind of battle experience

>It's too late anon. The damage is done. It's best to sit back and watch and hope it gets sillier.

Oh I know its too late. But its nice to imagine a theroetically well written fanfic being fun to read.

>>760108

>Gotenks has SS3 for some reason

For which they trained in the time chamber for a month or something like that?

And also with the limitation of only being able to use it for 5 minutes and being unable to fuse for 1 hour afterwards, rendering them completly useless.

So while it might've been an asspull in how quick they learned it compared to Goku who had a few years on them, it at least had some serious drawbacks when used.

>>760376

>>760403

Why not have Goku with SSG, and Vegeta with KaiSuperSaiyan? Would have been nice to have different branching of the upgrades.

>>760310

I'd call that his second death, but it makes sense to look at it as his first, since supposedly he was clinging to life after Frieza got annihilated by Goku on Namek.

>>760376

Like that's ever stopped anyone from learning techniques.

>>760376

>Goku using a technique specifically taught by Master Roshi, someone he's never trained under (at the time)

>Krillin using a technique specifically taught by Tenshinhan, someone he's never trained under

>Goku using Beerus' destruction move, which he did after only seeing it. Though admittedly he did train under him.

The only reason Vegeta can't use Kaioken is because the writers don't want him to be as strong as Goku. There is also really nothing stopping him from just showing up at King Kai's and learning it that way, other than his sense of humor.

Latest chapter is out on Viz. Toppo and Jiren both have more expanded personalities and it looks like U7's team is gonna get sped through building next chapter.

>>760622

>Vegeta: Hello, Kaio-sama, I would like to learn kaioken.

>Kaio: Okay, first you have to do all this contrived bullshit like telling me a joke and—

>Vegeta: Do you know what happens when someone who is already dead gets blown up?

>Kaio: N... no.

>Vegeta: Because I don't, either, but I'm just DYING to find out. *smirk*

>Kaio: Okay! Step one: concentrate your ki like a...

>>760661

Didn't they revive him in Super recently? Vegeta will have to blow him up twice then.

I enjoyed reading DB Elsewhere where the author made Kaioken and it's multiplications reliant on intense gravity training. Which allowed Yamcha to go up to x40 and force Goku to go SSJ.

If it was the same in canon then Vegeta would be a complete freak with how he constantly does gravity training.

>>760664

>Didn't they revive him in Super recently?

No, he's still dead.

>>760668

Was there an episode about Goku going to revive him then fucking it up?

>>760669

Yeah pretty much.

>>760670

That explains it. I must've seen the preview and not actually watched the episode.

Something interesting in the Super manga last chapter was that Belmod wasn't actually harmed during the tournament. He gets up with a smile when it gets called off and he waves away his angel when she tries to heal him. His characterisation as a trickster is really strong here. He also hints towards Jiren's motivation to enter the tournament. The guy is focused on absolute justice more than Toppo but also has a wish of his own that makes him enter. He's still a hardass but there's more to him than just being super powerful. If U11 turns out to be the DC parallel like people keep claiming then his wish is gonna be to bring his people back. OR it's gonna be to bring his universe back.

>>760622

>The only reason Vegeta can't use Kaioken is because the writers don't want him to be as strong as Goku.

<Kaio-ken

<Instant Transmission

<Spirit Bomb

<Potential Unlock

The show isn't even trying to close the power gap minus the dreaded off-screen training.

Also, Gohan gets back his Potential Unlock by powering up. I'm sure that it doesn't work that way.

>>760272

>At the very least she's fun to watch.

A kernel of corn in a sea of shit.

>>760284

>A true Mary-Sue would have beaten Goku.

<Flavor of the month beating the cash cow

That is a high bar for shittiness.

>>760838

You're right. The crew don't need powerups, they need new tricks and techniques. Why the fuck hasn't Gohan used that attack he broke out on Goku and Tien where he shot that super concentrated blast? That was awesome and seemed like a totally new move with neat applications, but we haven't seen it since and Gohan and Piccolo have been basically worthless this whole arc. I was expecting them to be cautious but also all business. They've just jobbed endlessly.

Vegeta is the king of second fiddles, no new techniques, tricks, tactics, transformation usage. No good episodes either. While he's taken out a bunch, he hasn't really had a chance to shine.

>>760855

Man Vegeta gets dicked so hard. He gets outshined by muh saiyan girls, fucking Universe 2, Goku for the nth time, and when there's any real focus on him, it's him getting his ass whooped. Why the fuck do we need a U2 episode, give us that Toppo vs Vegeta fight everyone fucking wants.

>>760853

Kale's Broly mode is pretty fucking broken, yeah. Caulifla is absurd potential for growth, while Kale's power is MAXIMUM. SSB Goku couldn't do much about MAXIMUM Kale as it was.

Kefla has the MAXIMUM power and growth potential of the pair, even if Goku was in perfect condition he'd probably have a rough fight.

>>760856

Vegeta didn't even get to beat Toppo. The pair just stopped. Fucking dumb.

>>760858

He barely even fought Toppo.

>>760906

>Anyone can unlock Ultra Instinct, it's just really fucking hard

>Monaka unlocks it in the next arc

>>760911

Well Monaka did one shot Hit that one time, and Jiren actually had to try with Hit, therefore base Monaka is at least as strong as Jiren, maybe a little bit stronger, and a perfect Ultra Instinct Monaka is probably as powerful as Zeno himself, maybe even as strong as Ultra Instinct Shaggy.

>>760918

Monaka has always been second fiddle to Shaggy, a guy can dream right?

>>760855

Just think of the purpose of the Spirit Bomb. It is an excuse for weaker fights to hold off incredibly strong enemy and protect Goku. If anyone else besides the strongest member of your team has the Spirit Bomb, this wouldn't be the case.

Vegeta is improving. He asked for training from Whis which he has never ask anyone to train him before. Goku just has a better mindset for training.

>>761009

>Jiren gives Goku a chance to charge the spirit bomb

>All the other universes use this as a chance to take out Goku

>Instead of Ribrienne getting taken by Vegeta we get an episode or two of a bunch of different defensive battles breaking out to keep Goku in the ring as he charges

>Even the U6 Saiyans help out because Cabba makes his plan clear to Vegeta and U7+U6 make a truce

FUCK.

>>761009

>Vegeta is improving. He asked for training from Whis which he has never ask anyone to train him before. Goku just has a better mindset for training.

I do like that Goku has an edge there because he understands the spiritual side of Ki and training. Vegeta just grinds in his chamber until God form shows up, shame he doesn't have a spirit bomb to dive into so he can BREAK THROUGH HIS SHELL.

>>761216

>because he understands the spiritual side of Ki and training

Maybe training since Goku knows when to rest, but I don't know about the Ki part. Vegeta understand Ki control better than Goku.

>>761425

Adding onto this, even in the latest Xenoverse games Goku's sort of balanced while a lot of Vegeta's buff favor Ki attacks explicitly.

>>761216

Goku doesn't understand shit. He just does stuff and it works because he has plot immunity.

>>762389

Well she isn't wrong.

This was the first time I've been invested in a fight. I really wanted those love cunts gone.

>>762421

It was about god damn time. Though it still pisses me off that the love cunts got more screen time than the Toppo Vegeta "fight"

>>762389

You can tell that the writers really wanted you to hate her before she got knocked out

>>762503

the folks over at cuckchan find her to be absolutely hilarious for some reason. I'm trying to understand.

>>762637

Well, she IS hilarious. You have to understand that she was never meant to be a serious character; literally everything about her is a complete joke, a stab at the "magical girl" tropes, all the way down to her interpretation of love being all about physical attractiveness, and thus not being able to recognize it where it actually exists.

>>762651

Yeah, I get the joke, I don't see how it was funny after the first episode, let alone 30.

I would have liked Ribrianne more if she wasn't a fat liberal cunt.

>>762561

That's one of the U6 Namekians and some clever editing. One of them looks just like Piccolo, remember.

U6 is gone next week.

>>762653

Well, this is Dragonball, the king of beating a dead horse until it's been reduced to powder, recasting it as a differently-colored horse, and then beating it to powder again.

>>762752

>That's one of the U6 Namekians

Not buying it.

>>762823

>>762752

Universes 6 and 2 are both going to be gone.

>>762389

Very good quote coming from an obese bitch. I hope Vegeta wins this tournament and wishes for everyone to be brought back, except Universe 2. No more Fat Fuck Ribrianne. That ending would make me stand up and applaud.

>>762895

Vegeta would only wish back U6, primarily because of his son-by-virtue-of-plot-insistence Cabba. I don't think he, or anyone else, gives a shit about the other Universes.

But of course Goku is going to win. What fucking show do you think you're watching??

>But of course Goku is going to win. What fucking show do you think you're watching??

I'm watching Dragon Ball Super, where the protagonists (including Goku) actually haven't won in any arc so far.

The two first arcs preserved the endings of the superior movies.

Beerus beats Goku and spares Earth because he likes the food.

Frieza literally blows up Earth and only time rewinding angel power from a third party allows the problem to be solved.

Goku and Vegeta get their asses handed to them by Hit and U7 only wins the tournament because he lets Monaka win.

Goku and Vegeta fail to defeat Zamasu because he becomes disembodied evil so they have to summon God to wipe out the universe.

It's entirely possible that Goku won't win this tournament.

>>762926

>Goku doesn't beat Jackie Chun

>Goku doesn't beat Tien round one

>Goku doesn't beat King Piccolo round one

>Goku doesn't beat Raditz

>Goku doesn't beat Vegeta

>Goku doesn't beat Ginyu

>Goku doesn't kill Frieza

>Goku doesn't beat Android 19

>Goku doesn't beat Cell

>Goku doesn't beat Majin Buu round 1

You have a point. This guy loses fights a lot more often than he wins them.

>>762926

>Goku doesn’t win

I’m actually really curious what Jiren would wish for. He’s technically a good guy, so he might just wish for everyone to come back. Vegeta said he’d do the same thing and I’m pretty sure Gohan and Piccolo would do the same thing as well. I’m also curious where Frieza will end up at. He’s still evil, but he’s also gained the ability to compromise and work well with others even when he hates them. I could see him filling Vegeta’s old spot now that Vegeta is more a Piccolo to the new saiyans.

>>762895

Ribrianne is only fat when she powers up. She’s still cute and thin in her normal state. She also realized that there’s more to love for her to learn, so there’s still mileage in her and her team. Perhaps their transformations will change as they mature?

>>762651

>her interpretation of love being all about physical attractiveness, and thus not being able to recognize it where it actually exists

Oh really? That wasn't heavy handed enough and I kinda missed it. 2deep4me

>>762752

>U6 is gone next week.

Shame, fat Beerus is a fun character.

>>762503

Are you suggesting she wasn't already the most disliked character in the show?

>>763238

She a cunt. Not a cute cunt, like a tsundere, or even a fun cunt, like a smug. She's a cunt cunt. No visual design can make up for this level of cuntery.

>>763270

Language barriers in Dragon Ball don't even make sense. Everyone in the fucking universe speaks Japanese (and if you think about it, it's pretty funny that the vast majority of the characters in the series are completely retarded, but still speak one of the most ridiculously convoluted languages in existence), so why would they even bother making new languages for this shit? Other races only speak different languages when it benefits Toriyama's horrible writing. Gotta make the people that made the ryu no kintama have their own language that they never use for anything else, because writing something that makes sense takes more than two hours.

>>763246

It did look like she was starting to see the error's of her ways after witnessing the love between 18 and Krilin. Perhaps if she's given more time in the future, she'll be able to develop as a character or maybe we'll just get more to her in the manga version.

>>763240

I'm sure he'll be back somehow, but he is very enjoyable to watch. I wonder if Beerus will react at all given their rivalry?

>>763270

Part of me is thinking that Frieza is going to come to the conclusion that the balls won't put him over Zeno, but that UI or some such state will put him over most of the angels. This means that he'll continue to play nice after the tournament and try and powerup through the same training as Goku and Vegeta until he can take them in the future. It'll be similar to how Piccolo fucked off after Dragon Ball, so that he could train to kill Goku. Of course, he may just be gibbed again, but it would suck to see him make such a dumb move again. He already saved Goku when he had to. It's not like he can't play nice with people he hates and he would have a lot to gain from the training too given his innate strength. It would also allow him to torment Vegeta by just being near him.

>>763300

It was a style they were experimenting with for a while. Lasted like half an arc and then they gave it up.

>>763376

Character development on the part of Frieza has the potential to be the best part of the entire goddamn series. I fully expect him to drop his hate boner for Goku and Vegeta and stop trying to beat them, now that he's got bigger fish to fry in the Universe. It would also be sensible if Vegeta decided to not give a shit about him being alive, either.

>>763402

They've either been setting Frieza up for something big or they've been giving him ominous monologs for no reason at all. Which is turns out to be could ultimately decide how Super is viewed years from now. Defeating a literally-who ayyy and wishing everyone back just isn't going to cut it.

>>762389

Atleast they gave the fat girl big tits.

>>763591

>>763402

In the Dragon Ball Heroes tie in for DBS they showed a unique cinematic of Golden Frieza facing down Jiren before Goku gets started. It might just be fanservice, but I think that it's likely to happen. Frieza stepping in to give Goku some time after making him agree to reviving him properly or something like that.

I love that the Dragon Ball Super April Fools art had the cast in office gear (barring Frieza), with how Frieza's been acting it's really like they're his employees. Talking about having Goku handle Jiren for him and mostly observing their performances from high positions.

>>763733

It would make sense for Frieza to be the first one to fight Jiren in the endgame, especially if Toei is ACTUALLY pushing to make Frieza take up Vegeta's post as the guy who gets beaten to show how strong the dude is before Goku fights.

>Frieza becomes the new Vegeta

>Vegeta becomes the new Piccolo

>Piccolo becomes the new Yamcha

>Gohan is still the strongest in the universe and doesn't do crap

>Everyone else slides down into pure comic relief

>>763757

>Gohan is still the strongest in the universe and doesn't do crap

Gohan = / = Shaggy

>>763757

Vegeta will never recover.

>>763733

>with how Frieza's been acting it's really like they're his employees. Talking about having Goku handle Jiren for him and mostly observing their performances from high positions.

Are they writing Frieza this well intentionally or is it a completely accident?

>>764187

Probably neither. Toei is not that clever.

>>764187

I doubt there is any symbolism behind it; they're just portraying him with maximum smug, as usual.

>>764501

>>763733 made a good point though; his behavior in Super in mirroring his previous role as an intergalactic dictator in a way that really compliments what we know about him from Z.

>>764187

I doubt they do anything, outside of pissing people off, intentionally.

>>765421

Eh we pretty much know they're coming back at this point; Vegeta, Goku, and even Jiren made it obvious if any of them win they'll wish everyone back.

There's no way they're ringing out Vegeta this early, there's no fucking way.

>>765421

That silly face Champa did to Beerus was pretty funny.

>>765436

It's true that they'll more than likely return, but it was still a bit sad to see. In comparison, the previous universes just got erased with that one guy losing his wife being the closest to today's episode. I'm also hoping the tone of this episode means that we're getting into the meat of the tournament now. I also liked the 3 love guys. I thought they were complete fodder, but they did put on a good show and they remind me of those dancing aliens from GT. The Namekians were fused like we all assumed, but it was nice to see that there is apparently no limit to it with the only real drawback being fusion sickness.

The Piccolo/Gohan fight with the two Namekians was fun to watch. It was nice to see the special beam cannon do significant damage again. Gohan taking the blow for Piccolo was a nice twist as well, and we got to see Nail and Kami again I'm looking forward to the remaining fights, but I do expect 17 and 18 to either drop soon or to be used in some way against Jiren. Part of me is thinking that it's going to take the rest of U7 to bring him down even with UI Goku.