/2hu/ - Touhou★

Maribel = Yukari (not really headcanon as it is all but officially confirmed). Yukari is terribly lonely because she can't tell anyone of this and really needs a hug. Yukari actively helped to raise Reimu (or at least did so after the previous Hakurei Miko died) and has maternal feelings for her.

The still living Yoshika was murdered and subsequently raised by Seiga as her jiang-shi. Yoshika still remembers at least a part of her former self, but Seiga's ofudas essentially block her original personality.

All residents of the SDM except Meiling and Koakuma are British (or perhaps French). Sakuya is significantly less human than Remilia or perhaps even Flandre, and effectively is a complete sociopath, slaughtering and cooking children without batting an eye so her mistresses can get dinner. Sakuya likely isn't a human in the first place.

Mamizou is one of the few Youkai who can and occasionally does leave Gensokyo at will. She does like to investigate paranormal issues in the outside world together with Usami

Kanako superficially is a greedy and mildly arrogant bitch, but still has strong feelings for both Sanae and Suwako, and will tear you a second asshole if you harm either of them. Stemming back to the Great Suwa war, she actually can be fucking terrifying far beyond what we see in Mountains of Faith (same goes for Suwako).

>>49775

Does not compute.

Yuuka is corrupting Cirno into a sadist.

Yuuka is more of a put-thumbtacks-under-your-chair kind of sadist than the murderous psychopath that she's known for, but because of her reputation she doesn't get many visitors to play tricks on. When Cirno wanders in she sees a potential surrogate.

Being her opposite in every way(⑨, no restraint, childish, prideful) means she can pull off things Yuuka wouldn't even think about, and she can get close to all of gensokyo since not even children are afraid of her yet.

Many incidents from the games are directly related to real-world events.

The blood used to create the Scarlet Mist Incident came from those sacrificed in 9/11.

The souls for the Flower Blooming Incident came from the lives lost from the 2005 tsunami.

The Lunar Invasion Incident was an allegory for the Islamic invasion of Europe. LoLK had lunar bunnies. EU has ppl who follow a lunar religion and fuck like bunnies. Both leave utter destruction in their wake. Junko is the embodiment of ISIS, a black-clad figure fighting to the death over an all-consuming grievance she doesn't even remember correctly. Hecatia is the mastermind pulling Junko's heartstrings. Is one of her personas doing the same thing on Earth?

Clownpiece has too much symbology for one post, but she's partly there because of this guy in the chair.

The great "power" that Yuuka is said to possess is the ability to not need to wear a head decoration. Since Byakuren is superhuman, she can choose not to wear a head decoration as well.

Magicians and arahitogami are spared from Reimu's policy of destroying humans who turn into youkai because if Gensokyo and the fantastic were to no longer exist, they would revert back to being humans, unlike a fortune teller whom dies and becomes a spirit, so the change could theoretically be temporary.

Hong Meiling eats the leftover bodies after Sakuya drains them for the Scarlets.

Sanae's belief that giant robots and Pokemon are fantasy creatures in fantasy is the reason why Gensokyo, as of yet, does not have giant robots or Pokemon, as the belief requires them to not exist to be manifested.

Since spirits from humans who have never been to Gensokyo may appear in Gensokyo, the afterlife is not explicitly tied tied to Gensokyo. The location for Gensokyo was chosen because of its proximity to Heaven.

Daiyousei has Down Syndrome.

Gensokyo itself is a sentient entity that can but not necessarily does react to things happening inside.

While certain Youkai can override this with their abilities, Gensokyo itself decides the current weather. There could be a tsunami hitting all of Japan while Gensokyans experience a normal warm sunny day.

Further, human population is regulated because something in the air blocks/kills Y chromosomes in sperm.

Lower population = higher chance for male offspring and more outsiders crossing the border

Maribel is not Yukari but a close relative, maybe the offspring of a child Yukari a few hundred years ago (or she actually is her daughter)

Suika has a self-centered giantess fetish

Reimu likes little boys

Cirno is a Karelian who fled her home during the Winter War

Yumemi is Renko's physics professor

>>49902

Daiyousei has Down Syndrome.

Alice has Asperger Syndrome

Junko has OCD

>>49903

>Junko has OCD

Junko has "purified" herself to the point that she technically should no longer be able to suffer from psychological issues. She likely doesn't even have a proper concept of self or remember why she hates Chang'e anymore.

Ichirin has schizophrenia.

Despite logically fitting into the universe, Tulpas do not as of yet exist within the Touhou universe even off-screen, since the belief for them will not be widespread enough to create a youkai.

Rinnosuke is sex-starved not because 2hus are lesbians, but because he's just not that attractive.

Peter Pan exists. He takes children to Gensokyo at night where he and the lost boys eat them.

Mokou's body naturally generates traces of the Hourai Elixer, hence why she is able to resurrect after resurrecting. Drinking her pee will greatly extend your lifespan.

>>49908

Junko is a divine spirit, meaning that at one point she was a living human that ascended into divinity. She probably had the disorder, but grew so accustomed to it that it was never cleansed, as seen in why purity of her being doesn't exclude an ancient (pure) grudge against a race of people for reasons she doesn't remember.

Miko is a man

>>50201

What classes would they play?

>>49882

>Yumemi is Renko's physics professor

This. Also, Yumemi has no patience with her students.

Yukari is the goddess of the Hakurei Shrine.

>>50485

Muh misused green text.

>>50488

˃bullying someone for using meme arrows

Not very nice.

>>50518

>Bullying someone for liking a never-to-return-character.

You started it, nerd.

>>50521

>Implying I'm the same anon

>Implying that bringing up your never to return, never to love you waifu doesn't deserve bullying

>>50584

Nah, Mima isn't mah waifu, that was someone else.

>>50584

<implying bullying is ever okay

>>50726

I bet you're some closed minded nerd who's never given bullying a fair shot.

Suwako is a Gaia-style fertility goddess and a manifestation of the (Japanese) land itself. Kanako on the other hand originally was human and eventually advanced to godhood as a war/tribal goddess of the Yamato, much like Athena was for Athens.

Kanako's experience as a mortal means that she has a mental concept of death and the fear associated with it, which is also why she fled to Gensokyo in the first place. Suwako on the other hand has no such concept because she was never mortal and hence does not really fear (or rather, is incapable of fearing) her own death. Had Kanako not dragged Suwako along, the latter would have accepted her fading away with little to no resistance.

Despite of her childish facade, Suwako probably is one of the oldest, if not the oldest 2hu in Gensokyo. Because of this and her nature as a natural goddess, her understanding of time probably is cyclical rather than linear - spring, summer, fall, and winter in an infinite loop. She's the very best 2hu in taking it easy.

Alice has Asperger's Syndrome. She prefers the "company" of puppets because she has a hard time dealing with regular humans.

pic related occurred right around the time Gensokyo's barrier was breached.

The breach could also represent 2hu moving into the 'mainstream' gaming world, what with ULiL and the fangames being available for the PS4.

Genji is god of Hakurei shrine. he doesnt use his human form because he doesnt get enough faith and also because live of turtle is comfy as fuck. He is one of animals representing cardinal directions of the world, thus his conection to borders.

Reimu knows who is a god of hakurei shrine but pretends she doesnt for some strange reason. thats why she doesnt want rinnosuke to tell her.

Yuuka isnt a flower youkai. she is just ancient as fuck super magician that likes flowers. she uses their lifeforce for power. she can also do that to other things like animals or dreams, but flowers are the least deadly way.

she can create life and before leaving lotus land she created her replacement with magic.

sunflower field actually belongs to her, she bought it so long ago that everyone forget about it and now think its public property. all trespassers are breaking the NAP and thus deserve death. this also aplies to these who break her nap.

given enough time and resources she can destroy most beings in gensokyo and beyond. like a fucking batman

Clownpiece doesnt deal with terrorist and will meat every communist threat with fire and fury.

Koishi is a budda. nobody knows this. this makes her more legitimate leader for a buddhist cult then byakuren

Marisa is white

>>50863

>>50875

>it's true and also 2 years old

How the fuck I missed this?

Also, the original pic.

After reading the latest chapter of Wild and Horned Hermit I developed a theory that almost certainly ain't true. It's established that each scenario in th16 occured, unlike other games where the story has only one scenario happen. That means that Reimu battled Okina no matter what.

Reimu is unsettled by the revelations at the flower viewing later. Specifically Aunn revealing she had been watching the whole time, and that Okina brought Aunn to life and could create more youkai at any time if she wanted.

Okina is a many-faced god, so she could conceivably take the form of the Matara-Jin, the greedy old man that she's traditionally depicted as. Equipment and all. Reimu can't remember what happened after her first battle with Okina. We're unsure if she was victorious or if she fled, but did more happen?

Basically, Okina turned into her original male form and impregnated Reimu's backdoor after their battle, then used her powers to cloud the shrine maiden's memory. Aunn knows the truth but Okina's keeping her from telling right now.

>>56948

>she could conceivably take the form of the Matara-Jin, the greedy old man that she's traditionally depicted as

>Basically, Okina turned into her original male form and impregnated Reimu's backdoor after their battle, then used her powers to cloud the shrine maiden's memory.

DELETE THIS

The Dragon God lives on the moon and the Watatsuki sisters are his daughters.

I think the Dragon lives on the moon because ZUN said in an interview that the highest gods live there and that the Dragon Palace is actually the Lunar Capital, which kinda makes sense if you read the story told by Toyohime in CiLR so it's not just some nonsense ZUN said while drunk. As for the Watatsuki sisters being his daughters, the Dragon God is based on the sea dragon god Ryūjin from Japanese mythology, who in some traditions is also called Ōwatatsumi no kami (great deity of the sea) or just Watatsumi, and this dragon just happens to have two daughters named Toyotama-hime and Tamayori-hime.

That would explain why they're so goddamn OP, their father is the god with the biggest dick in 2hu. (mainly because all the other gods are girls)

As Suwako can't cook at all and Sanae's experience with it is chiefly limited to instant noodles, Kanako does most of the cooking at the Moriya shrine and transforms into Ara-ko when in the kitchen - complete with an apron, headscarf, etc. Even her personality changes a little bit, making her usual tough love towards Sanae quite a tad softer.

At the same time, Kanako is mortally afraid of anyone finding out about this because the image of a caring housewife doesn't really mix well with that of a former war and current technology goddess, thus leading in a potential loss of faith. Ara-ko thus is one of the best-kept secrets of the Moriya shrine, and only a very limited number of people (including Reimu, who saw Ara-ko when Sanae offered her to have dinner with them) know she exists - always on the condition of absolute secrecy unless they desire the absolute wrath of a divine.

>>59334

>Sanae's experience with it is chiefly limited to instant noodles

Nonsense; those two goddesses have been raising Sanae to become a great housewife and would definitely have taught her how to cook. That doesn't mean Ara-ko can't help out once in a while of course, especially when Sanae is out solving an incident.

>>59343

You mean like this lady? Is that the reason we never see her again?

>>59326

>>56948

>>59480

I'm unironically in love with Aunn. But she is a spy. Y'all know that, right?

In the latest chapter of WaHH, Kasen sends Aunn to spy on the Moriya shrine. Although it was ostensibly for Reimu's benefit, it shows that Aunn has shifting loyalties. If she'll take Kasen's and Sanae's orders without going through Reimu, just who else might she answer to? Is she working on behalf of Okina, who's pretty much Aunn's mom? She could even send her clone to inform the sage while she's being a good doggo at the Hakurei Shrine.

That may turn out to be actual canon, though. If Reimu ever conceives a child, Aunn would notice immediately. Her appearance, behavior and scent would give her away. I have a sneaking suspicion that Aunn will tell Okina all about it the first chance she gets.

To what end is all this? Well, the Matara-Jin would take great pleasure in controlling the shrine maiden of paradise. If she has influence over the Hakurei child, she could essentially usurp Yukari's authority. While Okina may not be able to make the shrine maiden her direct minion, she can do it with Reimu's friends. Gosh, this gives a new angle to the job offer she gave Marisa.

Youkai milk is a strong aphrodisiac

Suwako used to have a much more mature appearance before the Great Suwa War and only took her current form so that Kanako could fully establish herself as the face of the Moriya shrine. While Kanako is often portrayed as the more ruthless of the two in her search for faith, Suwako's childish body belies a very, very old mind that often is rather alien when compared to that of a regular mortal.

Although she loves to make fun of and tease Mokou, Kaguya actually deeply cares about Mokou, not to the least because she partially blames herself for Mokou having become a Hourai immortal in the first place (much like Eirin blames herself for Kaguya being one). She will often pull the strings from behind the curtains to ensure that seemingly unrelated things work out in Mokou's favor, even if she also does everything in her power to make sure Mokou never notices it.

As the offspring of the Hakurei miko is a vital asset to the continued existence of Gensokyo, Ran occasionally has been "lent" to Reimu's mother whenever the latter was out exterminating Youkai. Reimu was too young back then as if that she could still remember any of this, however.

While everyone finds Yukari obnoxious, Yukari in turn finds Okina annoying in the extreme and generally goes out of her way to avoid her.

Mokou is a 1300 year old virgin and has never seen a dick in her life.

>>62361

>>62369

Sh-shut up

>>62361

only the second part

While everyone things Yukari and her constant shenanigans are annoying, Yukari in turn really can't stand Okina because the latter basically treats her like she treats everyone else - teasing her, belittling her, and so forth.

This is only worsened by the fact that Yukari can't say anything too nasty to Okina because she needs the goddess in order to keep Gensokyo in one piece. Okinan naturally knows this and enjoys abusing it to its fullest.

Despite of her title as an "ordinary magician", Marisa actually is an anomaly by virtue of being significantly more powerful than a mere human of her age should be - rivaling:

Reimu (who has been raised as a living weapon since the day of her birth)

Sanae (a semi-nascent goddess)

Sakuya (something that, while claiming to be human, can manipulate time itself and has served Remilia for so long that the latter can not imagine an unlife without her)

Reisen (Moon Rabbit, somehow managed to flee to earth despite of the tight leash that the Lunarians keep on their servants)

Marisa's father hates magic of any kind with a passion and very nearly has beaten her to death after finding out his daughter has been studying it. Marisa's mother always looked the other way when this happened - not because she shared the violent convictions of her husband, but because she was afraid she'd be she next one in line if she spoke up.

Marisa still regularly meets her parents when she is in the human village, both all involved parties go out of their way to ignore each other, well aware that they invariably would end up hurting each other. This creates an almost ironic relationship with Reimu - the shrine maiden's mother no longer is around, but for whatever it is worth, she at least loved her daughter while she still could. Meanwhile, Marisa is convinced that her own mother simply hates her.

If it's any solace, I like to imagine that Yukari secretly has the same kind of maternal tendencies towards Marisa that she has towards Reimu - even if her position and rank means she can not let them know that.

>>64410

Moku doesn't have tits. She's female, and has all the correct stuff between her legs, but all her official depictions show her without breasts. While she could just be incredibly flat chested, I like to belive they never regenerated properly after she re-incarnated a few times.

>>65185

>I like to belive they never regenerated properly after she re-incarnated a few times.

No, that's dumb. That would mean her immortality isn't perfect, and may fail after enough deaths. She's just flat.

Hecatia unironically listens to Linkin Park and My Chemical Romance.

The first thing Kanako and Suwako did after entering Gensokyo was to give Sanae a big old hug, quietly cursing the hundred times in the outside world when the girl needed someone to hold her close but their incorporeal forms made this an impossible task.

>>59336

i dunno fam i would actually go to church if it was headed by cute girl that can cook

>>64184

as planescape shows, being a god is actually hindrance when you are at the very top of the food chain, because you need faith to exist unlike lords of hell or something

Tewi is preparing an crusade to free Lord Daikoku. she thinks he is trapped on the moon with Chang'e. thats why she asks Reimu about weaknesses of lunarians in the LoLK.

She has enough manpower in the form of rabbits to make it actually happen. also clownpiece is on to it. really clownpiece could solo the whole moon. and she did.

every japanese dragon has a pearl thats very dear to him. it allows him to fly and is priceless. and as dragon is on the moon, if somebody stole it and ran away with it to gensokyo lunarians wouldnt be able to nuke it without losing the most precious thing under the heavens

There are bakemono in gensokyo. they are just all boys, thats why they dont apear in games.

one of them is on a quest to acquire all of these bullshit items and marry Kaguya. and he already has at least one of them. it would be such a shame if somebody that kaguya pissed off would help him.

Yuuka is at least as old as hanging gardens of babylon.

in fact she could be a reason for their name. and we arent talking about hanging plants

Yuuka knows king Arthur personally

Aunn is actually much smarter then she should be. she shouldnt be even able to speak. nobody knows why she is that way but also nobody complains

Marisa mother is pic related

Jo'on is official patron deity of bitcoin, for good and bad.

Yuuka is uncle Billy and Yama is van Darkholme

>>65611

>he already has at least one of them

The impossibility of the trials stems from the fact that Kaguya was already holding them.

>nobody knows why she is that way

Isn't it a result of the HSiFS incident? I mean Narumi was awoken by it as well.

>>65649

>Her genuine, real form so-

It's this.

Parsee is plain but the clone in her "Tongue-cut Sparrow" spellcards is hot.

"Even fairies know that the big one is the wrong one. But if it's up to me I'd like to choose the big one. Something is better about getting youkai in the big box rather than coins in the small box." - Marisa

Alice is one of the sages of Gensokyo

>>65901

>How'd you get to that?

Three parts:

>Alice's greeting in Perfect Cherry Blossom involves discussing if Reimu remembers her during the shrine maiden's story in two instances.

>Occam's Razor dictates that it's safer to assume that the grimoires between both depictions of Alice are similar if not the same, otherwise we need to assume that there would be more reasons for her to carry around a book she never opens in-canon

>The Lunar Capital proves that the fantastic realms of the story can exist outside of Gensokyo. Therefore, the evidence that Makai is bound to Gensokyo is lacking. Combine this with the fact that in UFO the Palanquin reaches it without ever crossing Mayohiga, and it's plausible that the two exist completely independent of each other

>Maribel's age progressed from when she was introduced to Gensokyo to when we see her as Yukari.

From these points, we can start to suggest the idea that Alice is the same character aged between canons. The implication from this is that Alice is older than Gensokyo, or at least Reimu's involvement with it.

There's a few things about the canon that stick out to me, though.

>Alice will often refrain herself from going all-out in battle. Ignoring IN's Last Words for a moment, (since you can't really compare the protagonists' power from them), she retains the same numeric stage as her younger self, showing a progression of power.

I'm not naive enough to think that stage placement will always correlate to power whenever we have Yuyuko appear as a Stage 1 boss in Ten Desires, but whenever a character isn't refraining themselves like Yuyuko was, this is generally a simple scale if you don't care about nuances involved (i.e. you can say argue all you want between which of Sakuya and Sanae is more powerful, but the implication is that they'll be in comparable leagues as you do). This is why Satori appears as the Stage 4 boss of Subterranean Animism whenever her role in old Hell would warrant her the drama of a stage 5 or 6 slot, and why Cirno isn't seen beyond the first half of the game despite hypothetically having indefinite health at her disposal she could use to out-live any player

The reason why I'm going on about this point is to emphasize that Alice half-assing the fight in PCB was about as strong as her younger self going all-out without the grimoire. When her weaker, younger self was using the grimoire haphazardly, she became an Extra stage boss.

Imagine for a moment where this puts an adult Alice whose had time to read and master the magic within the grimoire.

>In IaMP, she's willing to confront Yukari, both an out-of-character moment (OOC is serious business is a trope) and a demonstration in the confidence of her power.

>In IN, she's willing to team up with Marisa, with the other playable Youkai characters being Remilia (the fate manipulating monster with abilities that most of the Gensokyo residents fear), Yuyuko (the princess of the fucking Netherworld), and Yukari. Despite all of these, Alice refrains from being the weakest or least viable character in use.

While I don't think that she exceeds her, I think it's safe to draw from these that Alice, whenever she's not holding back, could reach prowess comparable to Yukari

1/2

>>65910

2/2

<Alice is older than Gensokyo

<Alice is on the level of power of Yukari and Okina

Big whoop, right? This describes a lot of characters. You could make a similar argument for Yuuka, right? Well, maybe. There's one last point though, and it's an easy one to overlook:

Alice is a "doll" user.

>Alice's primary trait in the Windows games demonstrates her extending her will across inanimate objects through magical means

>The extent of this power that we know of is MASSIVE. Alice is able to use it for dozens at once in her spell cards in Perfect Cherry Blossom. Furthermore, her actual cache of readily available dolls is seemingly indefinite.

Remember how I said that I wasn't going to look at IN's Last Words? Well, I'm going to break that rule for a moment.

>Reimu's Last Word demonstrates the true extent of her power if she isn't using the Spell Card system by means of stretching the application of her trait to "Float (outside of reality)."

>Because of this and the abstract nature of some traits, this also allows for imaginative applications of certain traits for seemingly red herring tasks (i.e. Junko can instantly kill you by "purifying" your body of life as she threatens in her dialogue in LoLK). It doesn't take much then to believe and apply the implication of the witch's puppeteer trait:

>Alice's trait means giving animation and will to otherwise non-living things, often using her own will in applications where she's already restraining her power.

Let's look at the role of the sages, for a moment, for the two that we know:

<Yukari's trait is manipulating boundaries. This allowed her to solidify the boundary between fantasy and reality in the geographical formation of Gensokyo.

<Okina's trait of placing "doors" is at first similar to the gaps Yukari makes. However, there is one notable difference: Okina can fixate her doors on a mobile object, whereas Yukari just bridges the gap between "here" and "there." Therefore, since her door can exist without her needing to attend to them, I think she's responsible for most of the passages in and out of Gensokyo.

The implication of that is that there are ways out of Gensokyo, and as we've seen in UFO, this can involve Gensokyo residents having a tangible effect on the inhabitants of those outside realms.

Therefore, the citizens of Gensokyo, real or not, need to have some type of presence. They need to have some type of form.

You all should see where I'm going with this. Just to recap, though...

>Alice's existence pre-dates Gensokyo's formation

>Alice's realized strength is comparable to Yukari's

>Alice's trait involves giving animation to an unknown number of entities

<None of the known sages of Gensokyo fulfill this role, despite presenting a need for it

With all of these in mind, it's entirely possible for Alice to have used some enchanting spell during the formation of Gensokyo in order to dictate how its residents physically manifest, both within the realm and without. Since there doesn't need to be anyone else to do it, and Alice was most likely alive as Gensokyo was forming, it's safest to assume that she was the one who played that role.

But hey, it's just a theory.

>>65911

>>65910

3/2 after a power nap

>Isn't there a difference between animating something and making something physical?

Sort of yes, sort of no. "Animate" in its most basic definition means "bring to life," which would fit everything perfectly and give a simple answer if it weren't for the fact that it uses an English dictionary for a Touhou Project theory.

Luckily for me, though, there's another argument to be made from physics that matter can be created from energy, and that in order to animate something with your will you would need to extend some lifeforce (i.e. a soul or mind) over it. Either explanation can work - one involves remembering that Zun was willing to recognize that time and space have an intimate connection, so Sakuya is able to alter the space within the Scarlet Devil Manor to be more expansive even though her trait only mentions manipulating time, the other points out that ghosts in Touhou have a physical presence.

>Aren't animated dolls with their own souls their own species of Youkai, like Medicine? How would that explain fairies, tengu, etc?

Medicine is also life-sized and calls upon dolls the size Alice uses. Medicine's portrait itself begs the question of what a "doll" is, since the classification is almost completely arbitrary. I don't see how this wouldn't leave room for Alice to be able to create tsukumogami-like youkai or puppets. Dolls just provide consistency for the recipient target, though, leading to their ease in usage, and collecting them fulfills a hobby.

>What does Maribel's age have to do with anything? If she was visiting Gensokyo, then doesn't that mean Yukari would need to exist in a time loop? What does this have to do with anything?

I shouldn't have mentioned this one in all honesty, since this point is more about what it needs to be assumed in order for Maribel's case to be true to supporting my theory, instead of doing it directly. I didn't elaborate to try to keep things on what little focus for what my 2:00 am brain could conjure. Currently it's two and a half hours past that, and I'm not really that much better now. I'll elaborate on that later if anyone cares, but I think I gave enough to work with that nobody really needs to care.

>>65928

Yeah, reading it over I'm not going to disagree. Starting by arguing the other fairy's points might be a good place to start for outlining some of the premises.

>>65918

>but without word from ZUN, everything ranging from Yukari being a distant ancestors to Maribel or some space-time fuckery is possible.

Zun referenced the origins of Maribel's surname as being based off of Lafcadio Hearn, who wrote books about Japan under a pseudonym with the surname Yakumo, introducing her in a literary work where she describes her dream work. Maribel's power is basically a budding version of Yukari's. They look the same.

Unless Zun introduces some sort of fuckery, it's more headcanon that there's a generational gap between the two than them being the same. It's almost on the level of Clark Kent without the glasses for how implicit the connection is.

When you realize this, pinning down the actual time that the connection to the outside world was made becomes tricky. I'm going to ask that you keep the open span in the back of your mind throughout this.

>Wouldn't the thing to give Gensokyo's inhabitants their form be the original myths they stemmed from?

That would give them an idea of what to turn into, but not necessarily manifestation or movement. In addition, most of the characters stem from legends featuring otherworldly appearances, but in-game keep a moe style. While we can lean on the forth wall with knowing that this is from a stylistic choice from Zun, we can also apply this excuse in the hypothetical situation that someone gave a template for most of Gensokyo's residents to spawn from.

>Also, bear in mind that Gensokyo was not so much "made" as it was a pre-existing part of the normal world before the Sages errected the Great Barrier and turned it into a Youkai haven

This is false. Gensokyo's geography was in layman's terms 'taken' from the Outside World, but the barrier placed it on another realm of existence. Otherwise Mayohiga could not form in any conceivable way. It's similar to how the Lunar Capital can exist in the realm of the fantastic.

Now for the fun one...

>Another thing you might keep in mind is that the "fights" in Touhou almost invariably follow spellcard rules and as thus are more of a ritualistic battle than a display of the character's "true" powers. Otherwise abilities such as "Make someone drop dead" or "Destroy literally anything" would upset the scale to the point its no longer funny.

I tried to explain that this wasn't always true, but I was half-asleep so I'm going to do it again, hopefully better.

In-universe, the spell card fights might be fair to each contestant so that the gaps in strength might be mitigated, but in the progression of the games this explanation doesn't usually hold water sans player character's involvement. Stronger characters will occupy higher stages unless they have some reason not to go all-out, such as Yuyuko in TD. This is why Satori is a Stage 4 boss while her underlings take higher slots - even though Utsuho was the incident culprit she could be justified as the stage 5 boss from a narrative standpoint since the player meets Orin first. In a contest of beauty, she can execute any spell card that her opponent could ever dream of (literally), but she's still fought before a simple bird whose idea is just "spam explosions." This is ultimately because she just isn't as strong as the two in battle. Outside of the story, this is also why there's a phantasm in PCB. Humorously, this is why Cirno doesn't just use indefinite ice cards to win by outlasting her opponents.

The takeaway from this is that the spellcard system explains in-universe why the characters haven't killed each other with crazy powers yet, but for the sake of giving the games story they keep a level of power scaling. My conjecture comes with this being relative with most entries in the series. Despite the nuances, I think its entirely fair to debate between which of Satori and Patchoili is stronger, or between Letty verses either Minoriko. However, if you compare either of the former to either of the latter, it becomes heavily one-sided.

<"But what about the exceptions? What fights like Yuugi's?"

Exactly. In explaining why these happen, I'd like to detail why I think Alice in PCB is one and use that to transition to why I think she's on the level of sage. Unfortunately I'm running out of time and thispost is getting long, so I'll elaborate in a little bit.

>>65935

>a) simply never see the more monstrous youkai [and not to speak of the male ones]

We have nue, though. From Wikipedia:

<it is described as having the face of a monkey, the legs of a tiger, the body of a tanuki (Japanese raccoon dog) and the front half of a snake for a tail

The "monstrous youkai" that appear in print weren't drawn by Zun as far as I'm aware, so I'm 'borrowing' your second line as an explanation since it keeps the lean and parallel I used consistent with that inconsistency.

>did they move the Lunar Capital to the Fantasy realm after the Apollo drama?

Honestly I'm not sure when they made that distinction in-universe, since I only need it to exist at all to compare it to Gensokyo's depiction. Maribel's involvement compared to Yukari's removes the relevance of timeframe when comparing this to Gensokyo's creation anyway.

The fantastic side sees a sea occupy a large portion of the surface that you visit in LoLK, and in Cage the Lunatic Runagate we see the Watasuki sisters manipulate which realm a crow on the moon resides in.

>"Inside World" Gensokyo likely still was a 1:1 carbon copy of the "Outside World" Gensokyo

In geography, its copied, but for residents I'm doubtful, since most of its residents are immigrants. Gensokyo exists as a separate dimension from the rest of the outside world altogether whenever the boundary was solidified, so I should take a moment to clarify that in any of my mentions of Gensokyo's "creation," I'm referring to the dimension instead of the geography.

>I agree that stronger characters will have stronger danmaku

Using this to transition back into the main topic, there are situations where the characters will refrain themselves, such as Yuyuko in TD. Characters that don't really have a reason to go all-out against the player because they're not invested in the incident continuing on or due to not being territorial will appear in stages lower to their power's worth. I.E, reading over Yuugi's dialogue in SA, even though she's an Oni, she appears in the same level of stage as Meiling or Yoshika because she's just playing around with the player instead of actively trying to stop her.

This points out the need for an amendment to the basic understanding of power in relation to stages that I brought up to account for why these exceptions occur, giving the final rule I'm using to gauge Alice's power: In order to have the narrative of the games' stories make sense, portrayals of characters within stages will have comparable power to other portrayals of characters within the same integer of stage.

A character's prowess can be judged by looking at something besides their stage number if a proper explanation is given for why their performance in that game's stage wasn't their all. Otherwise, the comparison is generally sound.

With those two guidelines for comparing (for lack of a better term) tiers between characters set up, let's look at both of Alice's appearances in Mystic Square and PCB. Both of them appear in Stage 3. However, Alice in MS is younger and more territorial in dialogue. I'd even compare her tone to Hong Meiling's in EoSD, whereas in PCB, against Reimu she's more-or-less annoyed that the shrine maiden didn't greet her properly and for Marisa she just sort of accepts that they're going to contest what spring they've gathered. None of these provide a dire situation for Alice to really go all-out in, and failure means helping the maiden resolve the incident (even though it brings her a momentary discomfort in the weather). Combine this with her not opening her grimoire, and it's fair to say she's not displaying her true power in the PCB fight.

What stems from this is simple algebra. Simplifying the nuances by stage number:

C(hild) = A(dult) - P(ower refrained) = 3

Therefore, C < A

"No shit, she's older" right? Well keeping that in mind, C + G(rimoire) = E. Therefore, A + G >= E

Again, "no shit, she's older," but recall for a moment the reason for the difference in power in Alice becoming a more practiced magician. In Mystic Square she wasn't as familiar with the Grimoire, but still was able to reach Extra levels of powers by haphazardly using it. I don't think it's fair to speculate that Alice using it in her current incarnation would be in the same tier as her younger self. This puts her at Phantasm, a tier of power we could expect any of the sages to be in.

<But anon, you're using the non-canon 1-5 as evidence

Disregarding her dialogue in Reimu's story, I don't have a reason to believe that she would have been radically difference during that age between canons, so I'm just using it as a point of reference for her power with the grimoire.

As for how this ties into how I'm going from "We don't know when Gensokyo was made" and "Alice is actually crazy strong" to "Alice is a sage," that will wait until later since this post is starting to get massive, and I'm getting hungry and a bit tired.

I wonder if the reason why Yukari spends so much time "sleeping" is because she's actually time-gapping to the next point in time when she's needed, reducing the extent to which she ages.

>>65951

the real reason is that she's exhausted from our intense and near constant love-making

>>65938

>>65933

Okay, let's wrap things up here.

So far we've outlined how to tier characters by exploring the limitations that the official works have given us and working with that, knowing how the narrative needs to work in order to make these possible. I'm going to take this style of discussion to its extreme now, since we're going from just fridge logic to headcanon territory.

Just to recap, though:

>The actual assembling of sages is difficult to determine chronologically

>Alice's true strength would easily place her at phantasm or above if you fought her in the games

There's one final point I'm going to introduce and discuss further for why I choose to believe Alice is a sage:

>We can infer that each sage had a role to play in Gensokyo's creation, but we can only try to figure out two of them because we only know two of the sages.

Yukari, the manipulator of boundaries, studied how the Lunarians were protecting the Lunar Capital and replicated its barrier to construct the dimension Gensokyo occupies, by solidifying where reality ends and fantasy begins.

Okina's ability in creating doors first appears similar to Yukari's usage of gaps, bringing up the question of her purpose, except the doors have one fundamental difference to Yukari's gap closures - Okina's doors can exist without her actively attending to them, and can be placed on moving entities like fairies or shrine maidens because they, fundamentally, exist in themselves instead of just being the result of bridging "here" and "there." Therefore, we can infer that she would fill the role of creating passageways to and from Gensokyo to the outside world and other dimensions for Youkai to use.

From Okina's role, we have an important question that needs addressed, then: what keeps characters visiting the other fantastic realms (New Hell, Lunar Capital, Makai, etc) consistent with themselves? Why does an idea from Gensokyo manifest in a world where spirits inhabit?

Lastly, we have Kasen, who is strongly implied to be a sage. I left her out of the count since her identity remains "unconfirmed," but if we believe that she is one, then her role would have been to guide the youkai, effectively teaching them structure. Is this the same as creating the youkai, though, or is it kept to an interaction with the other youkai whom already existed?

I believe we can answer these questions by assuming one of the sages cast some type of enchanting magic over the land that gives its residents some type of form, with the original myths being used as a guildline more than the metaphorical clay used to sculpt them. Did she create the law, or its citizens?

Let's look at Alice's trait for a moment in PCB and beyond - using dolls. Alice will often implant her own will within the dolls to use them to do her bidding animating the otherwise lifeless toys. Since we know ghosts exist in Touhou and can have a tangible effect on the living (heck, they can even breed with the living to create youkai like Youmu), we can infer that there is some type of life force or energy being put into the dolls gifted by Alice. We don't know how many of these dolls Alice has prepared, nor do we know how many she can control at once (we see in the games this cap out at about 8, but I don't believe this is her limit since she usually holds back her true strength). Furthermore, we don't see any reason to believe that this power is limited to dolls, since what a "doll" or "puppet" is remains completely arbitrary to the crafter's eyes.

Further-furthermore, Zun likes to take what he can with traits and expand them with knowledge of physics. Even though Sakuya's trait is limited to the ability to manipulate time in writing, Zun recognizes that time and space have an intimate connection, so Sakuya's power is able to be used to alter the space within the Scarlet Devil Manor. Yukari's concept of "boundaries" involve both physical (here and there) and abstract (life and death). Don't even get me started on Junko.

Taking this interpretation of Alice's trait, we can redefine Alice as being able to take lifeforce, energy, will, and ideas, and give them some tangible effect on the world.

Once we recognize this, and that we can apply some higher level physics to it, we can point out that matter can be created from energy. Would an Alice with indefinite energy at her disposal, then, be able to create life?

>>65967

Let's tie it altogether now with one elephant in the room that I've mentioned earlier: Alice's dialogue in PCB references her battles with Reimu in Mystic Square.

Because we know that the gathering of the sage's existence remains sometime after the earliest (from the outside world's perspective) point of contact with Gensokyo the dimension, we can use this to limit the point when the sages gathered to sometime after MS.

We can infer that each of the sages would have had a distinct role, since 2-3/4 of them can each have something distinct said about their involvement. There is room, then, for a sage that actually creates the youkai in gensokyo. Someone we know who would need to be extraordinarily powerful and versed in magic. Someone with the ability to give life or at least take an already existing idea and be able to translate that into motion and form, whose magic is extremely focused, almost as if it could be written down in a book somewhere, maybe in a book she keeps by her side at all times, so that others wouldn't be able to access the type of magic used and undo the threads keeping the residents of Gensokyo dancing to the original myths that created them.

Alice fills all of those criteria.

>>65968

>we can use this to limit the point when the sages gathered to sometime after MS.

Huh? The sages at the very latest would have gathered when the Hakurei barrier was set up in 1885 (although Yukari by herself did groundwork for it some 300 years earlier) and probably earlier. Unless Reimu is significantly older than she looks - which is a given in Touhou, except she really "is" just a human - there would have been five to six generations of Hakurei shrine maidens before her that already guarded the barrier.

At best, you can point out that Alice as a magician may be old enough to have seen the Great Barrier popping up or potentially even aiding in its construction (and hence that of Gensokyo), but I don't see how Mystic Square plays any role in this.

Also, Perfect Memento in Strict sense shoots several holes into your theory (although you in turn might argue that the entries come from an unreliable narrator):

>However, her history as a magician is short, and she is a novice.

This would suggest Alice has become a magician only fairly recently (which would explain why she still eats food and sleeps when a magician does not need to do either). If this note is true, then it would be unlikely that she is old enough to have seen or contributed to the creation of Gensokyo in 1885.

> Doll manipulation magic is magic that makes it seem as if the dolls were alive. It is not magic that gives life to the dolls, but allows the user to control them with magical strings, so long distance manipulation is very difficult.

In other words, it is at least suggested that Alice does not actually animate the dolls but rather, like a skilled puppet player, makes them look as if they were alive.

> It is said that cooking, laundry, cleaning and other household chores are mostly done by her dolls. It seems convenient at first, but the dolls are not moving by themselves, so she always has her hands full concentrating.

Again, the dolls are not actually made to be alive, but rather directly manipulated by Alice as a skilled puppet player could do it (although Alice uses magic rather than her hands to do that).

> She can even have her dolls control other dolls.

This is an interesting tidbit that might run in your favor, but also could be interpreted as nothing more as Alice pulling the strings of one doll in such a fashion that it pulls the strings of othes.

Also to your defense, Marisa says that

>"She said that she controls all the dolls herself, but that sounds like a whopper"

So it could equally easy be argued that the entry is null and void and that Alice is just hiding her powers like Kasen is hiding the fact that she is an Oni. On the other hand, it also could be Marisa who is wrong.

>>65999

>the Hakurei barrier was set up in 1885 (although Yukari by herself did groundwork for it some 300 years earlier) and probably earlier.

I already explained that because Maribel lived after the events of the main games, we can't go backwards in time to determine when the sages gathered compared to when the barrier was actually constructed.

>but I don't see how Mystic Square plays any role in this.

Now I'm actually getting annoyed because I already addressed this, and it seems like you're not even bothering to read what I wrote.

As far as the Alice in PCB is concerned, MS happened, meaning that we can use it to place a chronological floor against Gensokyo's contact to the outside world.

>This would suggest Alice has become a magician only fairly recently (which would explain why she still eats food and sleeps when a magician does not need to do either).

Again, I already addressed this. By referencing Alice's known displays of power in the games verses how the narrative of said games escalates power, we can deduce her true level of strength as being beyond most of Gensokyo's residents. The author wouldn't know this factor since Alice never displays it, even though she fights in the same leagues as Remilia, Yuyuko, and Yukari in IN.

Also, eating and sleeping can bring people joy. Even if she doesn't need to do those things, she could still choose to do it because she wants to, since she doesn't really need the time those tasks occupy to do anything dire.

>makes them look as if they were alive.

Again, I already addressed this by pointing out that in the games, Alice is merely extending her will onto them and giving them energy to move about. I chose to word it as "animate" because the only difference in means for bringing them to life would be giving the dolls independence, but the means to actually use her power give her the means to give them full animation if she wanted to. She doesn't because it's easier to just keep a bunch of dolls nearby. Transitioning to the next point...

>(although Alice uses magic rather than her hands to do that).

Which is exactly how I'm allowed to expand on the applications of Alice's power beyond what she normally displays in the games.

>On the other hand, it also could be Marisa who is wrong.

Given that Marisa has worked more with the witch, I'm inclined to believe her testimony more.

>>66028

sages of gensokyo =/= sages in general.

first group is responsible formaintaining and keeping gensokyo in usable state while the other is just a bunch of people too smart to die

if kasen is sage of gensokyo, then so is seiga

>>66034

>even if it's highly doubtful anyone could make Yukari "useless" or "extra" in Gensoukyou

Instead of solidifying the boundary from the real to the unreal, Okina could just open a door to the unreal instead. Okina has the power to basically recreate the Kingdom Hearts universe with her trait.

>it's especially far-fetched to think that that sage would be portrayed as a magician of roughly Marisa's capability

First, calm down.

Second, one of the sages is an oni, another is a god (which we know as a species has limits), and the most powerful of them can't defeat the Lunar Capital. Arbitrary limits on bestiary are arbitrary.

>Alice probably is the one who defines the look and style of Windows-era Touhou, but that's her role outside the narrative proper, not within it.

Besides you missing the point of headcanon putting forward what's allowed in-canon, you don't have any proof of the latter part of what you just said. You're making absolute statements without anything to go off of.

> makes sense to think the peculiar kind of fantastical existence the youkai of Gensoukyou and other places have is a property of the world they inhabit. If someone had to actively "solidify" or maintain identities, these other worlds would each need an "Alice" of their own.

This is false.

Mamizou, the Moriya group, Byakuren and her followers, and (logically) Yukari are all said or implied to be immigrants to Gensokyo in concept, yet for them to exist would imply that any and all deity exist. The conclusion for what needs to happen is that something needs to take belief needs to find its way there, and from there it transforms.

What you're omitting is that within those fantastic worlds like the Lunar Capital and Hell, they're consistent with themselves. They have their own physics. Gensokyo does not, unless you have an answer for how the Shining Needle Castle exists.

>They are the youkai that exist in the minds of people, that are still "real" in a very collective sense.

A meme exists then, not a physical youkai. No matter how many people you interview whom say that Santa Claus exists, you're not going to find a toy factory in the North Pole.

>I don't know why you're asking.

I'm asking rhetorically to point out problems with your rebuttal. For fear of sounding petty, I'm wanting less for you to reply at all since answering to your unfounded assumptions is hijacking the thread.

>What if they were solid enough when they are born/created?

You're asking "what if the thing that makes them form is instead the same thing that makes them form." You're still bringing forward the idea that somehow a memetic is turning into something physical, which still needs an explanation.

Because of how stressful her work is, Sakuya frequently is plagued by insomnia. The only known cure lies in sneaking into Meiling's bed, but for whatever it is worth, the Chinese girl does not take offense at this. On the contrary, a soft smile forms across her lips whenever she wraps her muscular arms around the maid and feels how the consciousness of the maid - safe and protected from the numerous worries that swarmed her like cloud of mosquitoes - rapidly flickers out until the only sound still coming from her is her soft, shallow breathing.

>>66055

Countertheory: Meiling never uses her bed because she sleeps on duty.

my headcanon is that meiling nodded off one time and now everyone gives her shit about it constantly

>>66070

>not even a fairy would be dumb enough to invade the home of a tremendously powerful vampire after dark

I bet Cirno made friends with Remi and Flan precisely because she did that.

>>66055

That's heartwarming fairy. Nice.

>>66061

>>66070

Personal Countertheory: Even if Meiling naps at the gate sometimes, it doesn't mean shit because she can sense Chi, so she'd wake up instantly if she senses a stranger's Chi approach the Mansion.

This would also explain how she can monitor the Mansion's perimeter in full, not only in front of the gate.

I think the only reason Sakuya doesn't like this is that she gives a bad 'image' to others. But even for that, it's light reminding, nothing more.

The 'lazy sleeping moron' meme is terrible, in my opinion.

>>66075

a poor little fairy maid being left alone outside at night seems like a pretty easy target for any pervert that wanders by

>>66077

It may be easy for a highly-trained youkai exterminator to deal with all those fairies, but a regular human already is screwed when he accidentally touches a hornet's nest. What if all the hornets could also spam you with danmaku fire?

>>66112

>koishi cannot be targeted by spells

Koishi best Magic card.

>>66098

>This is why Gensokyo is populated with cute girls instead of scary monsters.

Is this why the Fortune Teller had to die despite doing jack-all and Reimu letting more evil characters off the hook?

Owing to her isolated upbringing at the Hakurei shrine and the fact that most of their friends tend to be Youkai or other mythical creatures, Reimu has a hard time interacting with mortal, regular humans beyond anything not related to her duties as a shrine maiden.

It is not helping that the people from the Human Village see the miko with as much respect as they do see her with fear - even if she's just around for a shopping trip, shit has an unhealthy tendency to hit the fan whenever she shows up. If Reimu does so much as to enter a pub for a quick drink before she heads home, it doesn't take long until she can feel dozens of eyes staring on her back, only for their owners to hastily avert their gaze when she turns around.

There are rumors that the Hakurei shrine maiden actually is a Youkai, rather a than a human. Sometimes, Reimu herself wonders just what in all worlds she actually is.

>>49840

>Yuuka is more of a put-thumbtacks-under-your-chair kind of sadist than the murderous psychopath

For me its this, but that she still kills people and fills a pond with their blood, but not because shes sadistic(Though she may be a little) nor because shes psychotic and has no feeling but bloodlust

More like a combination of the logic that supernatural monsters wouldn't always humanize humans by default, the distance her age and power would put between her and anyone else at all, and how her personality is described as inscrutable and strange, menacing because you can't tell at all whats going on. Others must seem as alien to her. I feel like takatoras art of her really captures this in her face. Shes smiling, yet you cant tell what it is or what it means at all.

I admit I'm projecting my own feelings towards other humans onto her just a little but I feel its a more interesting interpretation of what little information there is about her.

>>68033

I agree with this. Heavens know how old Yuuka actually is, so it would make sense for her to regard other humans - especially those who vandalize her garden - as nothing more than mere vermin.

Doesn't mean she is incapable of feeling pity on some particularly hapless little thing that is more akin to a scared little mouse than it is to a fat, annoying rat.