/v/ - Video Games

I got into Sanic when the 3D games were fresh, but I've always appreciated the other games in the series (Sonic 3 is possibly my favourite MD title next to Mega Turrican) with the only exception being the unremarkable and truly mediocre ones like Sonic Forces and Chronicles.

>>16877359

Probably an outrageous hunch of mine, but I have it in good faith that a lot of Sonic detractors are massive Nintendrones still mad from past experiences (like getting bullied by SEGA owners as kids or some shit) and are taking out their frustrations out on low hanging fruit.

>>16877360

>Probably an outrageous hunch of mine, but I have it in good faith that a lot of Sonic detractors are massive Nintendrones still mad from past experiences (like getting bullied by SEGA owners as kids or some shit) and are taking out their frustrations out on low hanging fruit.

I mean, anything's possible. My theory is a lot of people who used to like Sonic grew out of it and dislike the games now because they think they're not cool. Or they're upset that Sonic didn't stick to the Genesis style games.

>>16877366

I liked Sonic Heroes. Team Chaotix's story was fucking ass, though.

>>16877359

See the Red Letter Media review of the Genesis games. Far as i can tell the people who claim Sonic was never good are retards who are either too slow, or too retarded to comprehend how to play the game properly. Of course, this is assuming they're not just pretending to cast the game in a bad light.

>>16877356

>due to being tied of constantly hearing "it's the worst game of all time" for 14 years, and they are clashing with everyone that has been told repeatedly that Sonic 06 is "the worst game ever made" for 14 years, but clearly didn't formulate that opinion themselves and were told it by the internet in their own youth.

You know, i picked up a 360 copy a few days back, and it's not even that bad, just incredibly unpolished. Someone with enough autism could probably fix this game up if they cared(Too bad the PC Port never happened, even if it was GFWL). Really something like Sonic Boom U is a better candidate for worst game even, since even if that game was fixed, it'd still be a god awful beat em up.

>>16877372

There is a group of people working on a PC port that simultaneously fixes the game, only DL link I could find on the quick is here https://archive.org/details/project06update2.5 .

Big adventure sonic fan, I think its important to point out that the era lasted for like 5 games, and 6 years but probably has the most impact on what people think of sonic now than all the others besides Genesis sonic.

>>16877372

>See the Red Letter Media review of the Genesis games

Do I have to? I already tried watching their Dragon's Dogma review and that made me wish I had a noose.

>>16877366

>2nd image

The fuck is this. There isn't even a difference between the two, not even in the hyper autistic Blue Arm Green Eyes shit. It's just the same Sonic in different poses, and maybe a higher resolution.

>>16877378

Not really, it's just Rich Evans and his pet cuck not being able to figure out how to play the game. I didn't watch the whole thing because it was infuriatingly bad, but their criticism were basically:

>Sonic run too fast :(

>Me brain no follow screen good

>Screen too small

>Me can't stop running into all the fucking enemies

>>16877381

The "intention" behind the image is that Adventure era Sonic which ended with Sonic 06, is a different character to the modern Sonic that is in Sonic unleashed, Generations and onward.

But because they for the most part look the same still, then Sonic fans aren't justified in they're complaints for the direction of the series, where DMC fans were easily able to point at DmC Dante and say, Just Look at This Shit.

>>16877372

What this anon said >>16877376

The effort going into this PC port/remaster whatever you want to call it is impressive, and I'll gladly give it a shot if it's ever fully completed.

>>16877376

>Big adventure sonic fan, I think its important to point out that the era lasted for like 5 games, and 6 years but probably has the most impact on what people think of sonic now than all the others besides Genesis sonic.

I think it would be a disservice to the thread to not to post this video, form an anon who was able to clearly point out that Sonic was always meant to have an in-depth story. it was just the technology of the time that limited them.

Sonic Adventure 1 is a continuation of the plot points set up in the classic games lore.

>>16877354

I only want either more 2D games or more Chao garden.

>>16877414

Well I'm not the one who made the pic, if you look at the post I made.

It was made by a sperg on twitter, ranting about Nintendo fans sabotaging Sonic.

>>16877414

>>16877420

Unless your not talking about me. but yeah I agree.

>>16877422

I felt like that could have done better without cashing in on the gritty sci-fi and GTA craze that was going on at the time. Rubbed me and others the wrong way that they made a plot line about Shadow potentially being an android copy which snarled with the introduced alien backstory so Eggman just cuts the bullshit and admits he's the real Shadow Gerald made during true final boss, after getting those 10 endings, 7 minutes when the player (and everyone else) is near death. Then the other activated Shadow androids are rarely, if ever brought up or used ever again until the IDW comics which are in a parallel continuity of sorts.

One of the best vidya openings ever. As a kid it was badass, as an adult it’s fucking hilarious. I wonder how seriously the animators took it?

I feel like Adventure fans can be somewhat placated by a 3D Sonic game that allows for mechanical freedom but doesn't strictly adhere to the actual Adventure controls. Story wise it's probably a bit harder to appeal to them. I feel like that 3D gameplay idea can appeal to 2D Sonic fans as well, if done well. The problem is Boost era fans are completely incompatible with any of the above, although I've sort of solved this problem by suggesting that we just take all of Sonic's modern mechanics and put them on Blaze, because she's not only the first "boost" character, it really does fit her a lot more because she was designed for it mostly. I guess what I'm saying is for the most part you can make it work if you squint for the three major game styles. If you want to get into spin-off shit there's not much that can be done to reconcile that shit, and you really shouldn't need to.

Why isn't Eggman in Smash?

Maybe the game could actually start the road to not being total shit if he got in.

>>16877472

>The thing with boost is its not just something you can slap onto a side character, the mechanic requires dedicated stages.

I don't necessarily agree, I feel like boost can work, but it would probably take even more work than just getting Sonic working well in 3D. Like, if it took a ton of development time just to get Mario to play well in 3D for Mario 64, I can't imagine how much time and effort getting Sonic right would take. Even some fan concept games probably don't quite get it, although I've never played and only seen some footage of them. Trying to fix boost would be something you have to save for a sequel, although I'd personally consider it a better investment than getting Tails or Knuckles working in 3D (even if that's easier in all honestly).

>>16877501

I what? None of the things you said even attempt to contradict my point.

Boost in order to even feel worth it requires long spanning stages, generally avoids any tight obstacles and basically has to warp the entire stage around it.

I'm not saying its impossble, just

>although I'd personally consider it a better investment than getting Tails or Knuckles working in 3D

Why though. Flying/Climbing are much more interesting than boost even if they "clash" with muh speed sometimes.

Also boost is literally never a good investment, it eats a bunch of budget because of needing long set pieces.

Tails and Knuckles don't even need a design change to work in 3D it literally just is adding routes for them like the 2D games, there has never been an actual issue with them directly; just that they never really do that.

>>16877509

>Flying/Climbing are much more interesting than boost even if they "clash" with muh speed sometimes.

How? I keep hearing as a counterpoint to maze-like design of the Genesis games as "You're not suppose to be able to fast on your first time through."

>>16877525

I always thought that was in regards to hazards?

Genesis design isn't mazes, its a set of paths layered on top of eachother that lead to the same place.

When you fall you can continue forward and have multiple chances.

>>16877509

You seem to be hung up on the idea that boost needs long levels that are basically a straight line. What if I told you that there's other possibilities for level design when it comes to boost? Maybe Sonic Rush isn't the best example, Dimps has always been a bit off when it comes to level design, but it is an example of how it works in a 2D style. If the goal is to rework Sonic from 2D to 3D in a sensible way, it's logical to assume the same thing can be done with the boost style. If we're being honest, boost at it's base level is replacing the spin dash with a resource, so it's less of a matter of what you do but how you do it. In other words, Sonic relies on understanding the level from a momentum standpoint, while Blaze would rely on understanding it from a resource based standpoint. For example, with Sonic enemies almost never require you to beat them, and rings are nice to collect and useful for making the 1-up sound effect happen when you collect 100, but neither are major elements to consider when playing a level. On the other hand, if they replenished the boost gauge like they do in various other games, then you have to consider them more. That's not necessarily a requirement, boost could be recharged by something else entirely, a look at F-Zero can tell you that much. What I'm saying is there's a big possibility space you're ignoring because the boost games didn't consider it either. It's like the homing attack, it's a lazy answer that just makes things easier while adding nothing to the gameplay aside from homing attack chains that get boring after the first one you do because there's nothing you can do with them. Imagine for a moment if your momentum going into a homing attack carried over, like it does when you hit an enemy in the classic games. Or consider the idea that maybe the w-spin-attack/insta-shield could be modified to attack in a general area around Sonic, spinny attacks worked for Naughty Dog before after all.

I also don't really have a problem with Tails and Knuckles, I just feel that if you're doing something new you might as well experiment. I've mentioned in another thread that Silver would be a prime candidate for actually developing a real gameplay style beyond "physics", but again that would take somebody with vision. It's way too late for me to come up with something, though, maybe another time.

>>16877528

>boost is replacing spindash with a resource

Only in the case of the magically broken adventure one and even then boost allows you to do a lot more than even that.in a mechanical sense at least

My point is, sonic requires a high speed so boost speed will always be a mess to control and adjust in tight spaces, it doesn't matter how it recharges; by virtue of being a "faster mode for a character whos already fast" it requires large spaces.

Blaze is still alt sonic so she also has a base speed that forces boost into this issue.

>like it does when you hit an enemy in the classic

By virtue of how homing works, you'll basically always be hitting the front with homing; which is why its momentum mechanics even if they ever existed would still be dropping a lot of it.

Or at least thats what makes sense. The main issue i have with homing anyway is that it feels automated, which is unavoidable.

The momentum thing is a lot less glaring.

Once again though, i'm saying its just not compatible with normal sonic, not that you can't make something good from it; its not like all 3D boost games were terrible.

Generations was pretty decent with it.too bad it has ass cancer in the form of its botched "classic" parts

>>16877366

I get what he's saying, but I'd argue that it's modern Sonic Team that basically turned Sonic into some sort of bastardized Disney character. Nintendo can actually make games with good stories when they want too, hell just look at Xenoblade and Golden Sun. Even the most recent Fire Emblem was better than the 3DS games despite the awful art style change. But yeah, I'd argue that Colors is when everything went to shit in terms of story, characters, music, gameplay, etc. At least 06 had good music and can be turned into a good game if one has enough autism like that ChaosX guy. Of course people will argue that Generations is a good game, and while they're right. I'd also argue that's mainly due to them having a solid base to work on. Just compare the Colors level to anything else in the game and you'll see that it's a poorly designed slog. Also fuck whisps, they're fucking annoying and no one likes them, probably because they haven't used them in a good game, yet.

>>16877528

>>16877534

They also have a boost gem in 06, and I think it works quite well. Basically it just lets Sonic go to max speed and then needs to recharge. But yeah I wouldn't mind a boost if done right, but in games other than Rush and Generations it's poorly implemented.

>>16877544

Yeah the "modern sonic" story style definitely started with colors, the story books and unleashed are starkly different and they came right before.

Modern sonic is very clearly based in colors, despite 3D boost being a retained feature. And i don't just mean from the "wisps go in every game" sense.

I actually like the story book games quite a bit, but its clear that even to the standards of the first two; a third would be much worse with the current design philosophies.

And i doubt it'd be an exception.What even won the poll again? It was greek mythology right?

>>16877544

Colors had good music you absolute buffoon. Aquarium Park and Asteroid Coaster say Hi.

I also really liked the gameplay in Colors. It had more variety than Generations and more levels in general while polishing up the bad parts of unleashed daytime stages.

>>16877580

> while polishing up the bad parts of unleashed daytime stages.

More like trying to hide them by making a "3D game" 2D 80% of the time.

Literally no 3D portion of a level in colors is memorable. And the 2D sections are just very plain despite being most of the game.

Its filled with dumb gimmicks, many of which are slow and clunky; and these are mandatory a lot of the time.

It didn't refine jack shit.

Reminder that >>>/fast/ is up and running for anyone who would enjoy wider and more prolonged Sonic discussion.

>>16877544

But neither Golden Sun nor Xenoblade were made by Nintendo? They only published them.

>>16877687

Xenoblade is by Monolith Soft, and Nintendo currently owns them. Monolith also has to help with like every game Nintendo makes now too, not part of my argument but just something to know. It's less like Nintendo's relationship with Rare or Game Freak, and more like HAL. I'm pretty sure they own HAL, anyway. To say it's not Nintendo is not inaccurate, but not totally accurate either, get me?

>>16877544

>hell just look at Xenoblade and Golden Sun

Two of the worst examples you could have provided. While Monolith Soft is owned by Nintendo, they are still a completely separate division; and Camelot is a different company altogether.

>>16877774

HAL is still a separate company, and it's only now that they're getting back into branching out from working exclusively with Nintendo: http://archive.vn/wfbmS

>>16877528

>It's like the homing attack, it's a lazy answer that just makes things easier while adding nothing to the gameplay aside from homing attack chains that get boring after the first one you do because there's nothing you can do with them

i disagree

you could use the homing attack to open up new paths without having to have homing attack chains

>>16877528

Homing attack is fine, yeah SRB2 has the Speed Thok which does work, homing attack isn't necessarily bad.

>>16877354

His Sonic Riders design looks awesome. I wish that would be permanent.

>>16878022

On one hand yes. On the other hand, there's so many dynamic poses and styles, while boring ass Mario always looks the same.

But hey, that's what Nintendo fans love: Always the same.

>>16878052

If you are unironically trying to glue criticism of Sonic '06, a game that's categorically known for being bluntly unfinished, and is a point in which the introduction of games culture to a much broader part of the population, which is where some of the retardation come from when people think of the sonic the hedgehog series of games, comes passively from that game being misattributed to the series as a whole.

Then the only thing I can think to say to you is that you entirely don't know what you're talking about.

Shadow and '06 are seen for being bad fore radically different reasons.

Hell even if you're superficially going story wise.

'06 was actually trying to be serious.

>>16878073

Sonic 06 and the Shadow game may have different specific flaws, but the misunderstanding of both of them comes from exactly the same place, and that's judging a book by it's cover.

Shadow may be more of a finished product, but it's just as unapproachable as Sonic 06 is. Shadow gets made fun of for the same reasons Sonic 06 does, and that's because they are both extremely easy targets. The actual objective/subjective positives or negatives don't matter if people don't even want to try and look at them though a critical lens.

I'm not saying they are the same, but in the eyes of Ignorant people be them Fans or not, they may as well be.

>>16877368

>Or they're upset that Sonic didn't stick to the Genesis style games

Or maybe because boostshit is genuinely boring. It's basically a fucking auto-runner with QTEs, and a bunch of extra bells and whistles. I never really got the appeal.

>>16877422

My main beef with Shadow the Hedgehog is, cringe aside, there's no true canonic route, though rumors say it's the pure good one. Also

>the Eggman endings all suck (especially the "I am Shadow Android" garbage), and he appears out of bumfuck nowhere in the ARK and the comet just to fill the boss fight slot

>having all sides in a mission attack you and characters with unskippable introduction closeups constantly changing your mission is extremely annoying

>fuck Cosmic Fall, it sucks ass, especially the last segment in hard mode if you don't have the keys which is absolute garbage (30 seconds waiting for moving platforms to come closer), and fuck ARK's slow as molasses elevators

>half the bosses can be defeated by getting a gun and mashing the shoot button

>>16877509

>Why though

Not him, but flying and hovering are the antithesis of platforming. They remove all challenge. Unless you go the Heroes route (limited altitude and reach, slow), or the Adventure 1 route (short flight time+strongly gimped by gravity, though it was extremely clunky) it will make for a very boring game. Climbing and gliding also go against platforming's principles by allowing you to recover from failed jumps, though at least unlike outright flight their effectiveness can be mitigated more easily (slippery walls, insurmountable cliffs, spikes, electric fences, etc.). Not to mention both things are slow (purposefully, to penalize over-reliance on them) which goes against the whole 'gotta go fast' schtick in Sonic games.

The only way I could see flight and climbing working in 3D would small be for designated sections or getting on top of tall platforms. Otherwise you'd just get "running forward except you also can move up/down," or Crash Bandicoot 2's jetpack levels, or Super Mario 64's wing cap at best. And for climbing, there's no need real need because pulleys, springs, wall jumps, and action pads make it obsolete.

>>16878007

>>actually defending Shadow the Hedgehog's multiple paths

By that standard isn't replaying old maps with new missions, something that's existed since Sonic Adventure 1, also bad? I mean, it does suck if you just want to beat the Last story and shelve it asap.

>There were people who spent half a goddamn hour on that labyrinthine Ark level with Maria, trying to find the last few enemies so they could move on.

The Doom's dark mission can be finished in like 6 minutes. All branching paths lead to dead ends so you can't get lost, doors that lead backwards are initially locked, and if you accidentally take a pasageway backwards you can tell when you've been to a room (e.g. no rings, dead knocked down soldiers, used checkpoint). It's not a labyrinth by any means.

>>16877359

Explain why the original games were good

>>16878492

Literally no flight system for tails is infinite, why did you even try to imply that tails would ever be able to fly infinitely exactly?

No shit he won't be flying all the time. Tails flight time is reliant on what kind of platforming he exists in; this isn't some new fancy concept, he has literally never had kirby flight.

Gliding is also a lot more limited than flying, while climbing exists as you noted; it is very easy to cuck. But along with that, there is a reason why knuckles wasn't generally allowed to just be in sonics levels.

His crap jump height exists for a reason. Tails and Knuckles perform better when they have stages built for them, knuckles has a easier way to just integrate them though.

what even can be a non-literal lock for tails?

I like how you mention, how it slows shit down and then says that other crap that does the same but forcefully shoved into the level design makes it obsolete.

Because grabbing a shitty pulley is so amazing that actual climbing just can't compete. Just like momentum was made obsolete by the dash pad.

>The only way I could see flight and climbing working in 3D would small be for designated sections or getting on top of tall platforms.

Gee you mean like the 2D games? Secret sections to reward use of abilities, who could have guessed those are a good idea.

And you specify small for no reason, that has zero to do with anything; they could be a whole second level essentially and it wouldn't suddenly break tails abilities.

Boost is go fast the ability, but by all means it has fostered the pure go fast ideology of modern sonic; the originals were about keeping your speed.

The modern is pressing a button like in mario.

>>16878629

>WHY does the Sonic series have some of the best soundtracks in gaming

Because Jun Senoue both is a part of, and likes sonic.

>>16878734

>Gee you mean like the 2D games? Secret sections to reward use of abilities, who could have guessed those are a good idea.

>And you specify small for no reason, that has zero to do with anything; they could be a whole second level essentially and it wouldn't suddenly break tails abilities.

Sonic 06 actually did attempt to do this, and it simply tied to make levels that were just as mutilated layered as 2D levels were. There is an interesting DLC pack that gives all the secondary characters a run though the levels, and shows the levels can work no mater who your playing as, it's just a simply matter of mixing up a few placements of objects, or having a character start at the end of a level, and work they're way to the start.

Why were there no Sonic RPG games?

>>16878765

Because Dark Brotherhood sucked ass.

>>16878765

Thinking about it, Aside from The Bioware one. Sonic Battle's story mode is built like an RPG in nearly the same vain that Custom Robo is.

Main difference is your frequently playing as characters who aren't customizable to earn abilities for the character who can be customized.

Stats/level grinding was given to the Chao Garden, as something to give players a secondary goal to keep engaged when they were replaying levels.

Also custom abilities for Sonic himself I believe were first implemented in Sonic and the Secret rings, it was just done so terribly, I can't remeber if it was because of the actual system in place, the controls or both. Generations has the exact same Custom Sonic feature but it can be 100% ignored, in Generations all it really did was limit what Sonic could do, Classic Sonic can only get elemental shields if they are equipped to him, meaning the levels can't be designed in ways that actually use them for cool things, since some people may never know their even in the game.

>>16878681

I have to disagree with this a bit. Even without context, different people can feel different things from listening to the same music, based on their own experiences and perspectives. Someone could listen to Infinite's theme and get the impression of a total badass. Someone else could listen to it and get the impression of a complete tryhard. It all comes down to how they interpret both the lyrics and the composition. The former person is probably someone who thinks Linkin Park is legitimately cool. The latter person probably laughs at the kind of person the former is.

>>16879363

That's why I was careful with my words, I didn't say that someone listing to the song WILL think Infinite is a badass, That is the part that is up to interpretation.

But what isn't up to interpretation is the Ego that the theme song gives off, how much of a badass Infinite himself thinks he is, the song communicates this very clearly, it's up to the listener to decided if they agree or not that Infinite is as impressive as he thinks he is.

>>16879036

I dunno, I'd be down for one made by the guys who do the Mario and Luigi RPGs.

>>16879363

>>16879388

Isn't Infinite canonically a tryhard? I guess it works that way.

>>16879478

I think they went bankrupt. Probably invested too much in the 3D sprites for Dream Team, then made a bunch of remakes and a crossover nobody really needed during the ass end of the 3DS lifespan. And of course they didn't touch Partners in Time, the game that actually needed the remake to be good.

>>16879639

Forces was fucked in a lot of ways. There were only four level designers, and only one had worked on a Sonic game, the lead level designer had bottom billing on Lost World. Speaking of Lost World, the engine is based off that, so if the game feels of it's because it's literally trying to make Generations out of Lost World for some reason. I'm honestly surprised there weren't any Sonic 06-tier problems and it was just underwhelming. On the other hand the story was finished fairly early, there's a draft floating around that calls the Phantom Ruby something else. The name change might have more to do with Mania than anything, if I had to guess.

>>16879658

Most of them aren't amazing but they get the job done most of the time, but let's be honest Gamma has no right to be such a good character in Sonic Adventure of all fucking games. It's like they made a fucking masterpiece and put it in a Sonic game, as a joke.

>>16879532

Oh fuck, I knew the Paper Mario crossover did terribly and the remake for the first game was criticized for the stupid enemy redesigns but I didn't think it was that bad.

>>16879665

That along with Emerl and Merlina.

There's a pattern that some of the best Sonic characters are the non anthro ones.

>>16879532

>I think they went bankrupt.

They did, back in October. Didn't help that the ONLY games they did in the past ten years were Mario and Luigi.

>>16879671

>Oh fuck, I knew the Paper Mario crossover did terribly and the remake for the first game was criticized for the stupid enemy redesigns but I didn't think it was that bad.

Ohhh boy, it's even worse than that. The Bowser's Vore Story remake was the damn near the worst selling Mario game ever, only barely beating out the fucking Virtual boy game.

http://archive.is/wip/M48B4

>

The estimated figures come from GameDataLibrary, which has tracked Japanese sales for all games up to 3rd February at the time of writing. The screenshot captured below shows the worst-selling, Nintendo-published Mario games to date in Japan and, as you can see, Mario & Luigi: BIS + BJJ is currently sitting amongst download-only titles and even a Virtual Boy game.

Sonic & Tails: Superspeed Saga never ever.

>>16879901

Goddamn. That's rough. Can't believe both M&L and Paper Mario have both gone down the shitter like that.

>>16879683

But basically all this character development was outside of the games, because at the end of the day it's not a very complex setting and doesn't need to be, it was only ever meant to be a fun kids' game. It's like donkey Kong and mario, they were only ever meant to be 2 dimensional characters that fill the necessary role of their games, to try to have them develope is cringey, because that is just alien to the nature of this kind of character. The personas of mario, peach, and bowser are already complete.

As far as potential sure, but a good writer can make just about anything decent. And again, there would be a great possibility for a good story about a simple peasant resuing a princess from the land of evil lizard monsters, but exploring any of those possible themes is just so contrary to the nature of mario and peach that it hurts to consider how bad it would be.

"Good" writing is so tertiary to the purpose of games that complaining about it is like criticizing the pattern on your toilet paper, you weren't meant to wipe with a van gogh print.

>>16879903

At least Intelligent Systems hasn't made a Paper Mario game since Color Splash, I think even they know it wouldn't work out. You know who I think would do an alright job with a Mario RPG? The Bravely Default team. Maybe it's just me wanting a Mario RPG with a job system based on power-ups. I'd also be happy with a Kirby RPG with copy abilities as a job system, HAL could probably do it on their own actually. I don't see Sonic working in an RPG though, even if Adventure was written by somebody from Phantasy Star.

>>16879956

I dunno, while we're on the subject, Bowser is great in pretty much every RPG. To a lesser extent Luigi had some character exploration in Luigi's Mansion that colored his portrayal a lot. It's not important, but it can help. That having been said I feel like that sort of thing is more ripe for side characters. Knuckles and Shadow got their own games, and while they were slightly botched there was enough going on with them to do it. Tails got stuck with two 8-bit games though, dunno where to fit that mess. If I had to pick a character worth exploring in character and gameplay, Blaze seems like an alright choice. Maybe that's what Sonic Rush Adventure was supposed to be, I dunno.

Why did they never make a new sonic adventure, but make it good? The ideas are good, the execution is just so shit.

>>16879901

>Didn't help that the ONLY games they did in the past ten years were Mario and Luigi.

I thought they made some mobileshit and a Mario and Sonic at the Olympics game before they kicked the bucked.

>>16879956

>But basically all this character development was outside of the games

I could make an argument about the Sonic games and the fact they always built more and more on it's attempts at story telling with every sequel for nearly 20 years, but I don't need to make that argument.

All I need to ask is, If given a binary choice, of if a game was going to have a Good Story, or if a game was going to have a Bad story, which one would you prefer?

Obviously everyone would prefer a story in nearly any context to be good story, over a bad story.

A bad story will always make something not as enjoyable as it could have been, and a good story will always make something more enjoyable. Even if you think every attempt at story telling in every Sonic game so far has been awful. Would you not prefer it if the next games story was what you consider to be good?

A mediocre story can make a boss into just a "stronger enemy" not worth giving a second thought over once beaten, A engaging story can elevated a boss into something you'll never forget.

A boss can still be good with a bad story, but it can become better with a good story, That goes for every single aspect of a game, everything can be elevated with good writing, the same way Good writing can be elevated by good music, good music can be elevated by good gameplay, it's all connected. One thing being great, makes the whole even greater, one thing being bad, makes the whole worse.

Again if given the choice. If everything in a game could be good, would you not want everything in the game to be good?

>>16879996

>Mario and Sonic at the Olympics game before they kicked the bucked.

Oh shit, they did. Bit of a too little, too late thing though. Mobile game, i know nothing about, can't find anything about that.

>>16879972

Sonic 06 more then any other game, really was Sonic Adventure 3, on paper it was the amalgamation of all the ideas from every 3D Sonic game up to that point.

The problem was the Production of Sonic 06 was so awfully mismanaged, and it got panned so hard, that in response to it's negative reception they threw the baby out with the bath water. The producer who had been with Sonic since the start. left near the start of Sonic 06's production, so once Sonic 06 got panned Sonic Team seemed to think they had to go back to the drawing board instead of considering the fact the main reason people didn't like Sonic 06 was the fact it wasn't fucking finished, fully functional, polished.

The only thing kept from Sonic 06 was the Mach Speed sections, which got refined into the Boost style of gameplay. Yes Ironically the only thing they kept was the Mach Speed despite the fact those were considered one of the worst parts of Sonic 06's gameplay, due to how easy it is to die the first time you attempted them.

>>16880030

>so once Sonic 06 got panned Sonic Team seemed to think they had to go back to the drawing board instead of considering the fact the main reason people didn't like Sonic 06 was the fact it wasn't fucking finished, fully functional, polished.

Wasn't most of Sonic Team actually fired, meaning the all that was really left was the interns?

>>16880030

but there's hints it was supposed to be Shadow 2

>>16879665

>there's a draft floating around that calls the Phantom Ruby something else. The name change might have more to do with Mania than anything, if I had to guess.

The tie in was a late decision.

>>16880106

Yeah like super late, literally no draft of the game calls it the phantom ruby and its abilities were never rewritten to match.

It was called the "Valtron", which i'm guessing is a mistranslation of Vartron because of its abilites.though i suppose both end up with VR in them, its just that Vartron makes it more obvious.

Similarly its pretty obvious infinite being anything more than an eggman creation was pretty late in development as well. Realistically they just slammed classic and other tie in factors last minute.

Classic is very blatantly tacked on.

>>16880101

>Now, there's the garbage meme where '06 being adventure 3 and people just babble it meaninglessly.

Yeah sure i'm quite sure you can back up how its so massively different outside of its ass physics.

Its a sonic game where you go through multiple stories, sonic clearly retains most of his abilities from adventure as well.

No clearly it wasn't an attempt at another adventure scale game, merely a meme.

>>16880080

That I'm not sure of, During Sonic 06, Sonic team was split down the middle, so half of them could work on the Wii Versions of Sonic games, so there was Sonic 06, and Secret rings at the same time, then there was the HD version of Unleashed, and the Wii/PS2 version, with Sonic and the Black knight in there somewhere, and even Before they had to of been working on Shadow and 06 at the same time, this isn't even talking about all the portable sonic games that also had to of been made at the same time. Sonic team has at the very least always had enough people that they could make multiple sonic games at the same time.

>>16880101

>Really '06 only has a superficial resemblance to the adventure games.

Sonic Heroes, and Shadow could also be considered an "Adventure 3" depending how you want to look at it.

But I only say Sonic 06 is the most worthy of actually being considered Adventure 3 because it blatantly is just built like a sequel to Adventure 2.

>Sonic Adventure 1 had 6 gameplay styles that told the story for 6 perspectives.

>Adventure 2 ditched the hub world, and narrowed it down to 3 gameplay styles, and 2 focused perspectives on the story.

>Sonic 06 had 1 unified gameplay style, but it had 9 characters who all had they're own way of interacting with the levels, and 3 perspectives on the story that each had their own narrative, the hub world also returned.

It also helps that each Adventure game mainly focused on showcasing a different main hedgehog. Sonic, Shadow, then Silver.

obviously Heroes and the Shadow game are still going to have adventure elements since that's just how sonic games were in that era, Sonic Riders also had Adventure elements for how it was constructed.

But unless the Treasure hunting, and Mech stages are THAT god damn important to what an Adventure game is. the Sonic 06 is clearly the evolution of what was in SA1 and SA2

>>16880111

I'm so sure, Sonic's Story, Sonic's Story but he's angry and does air kungfu instead of a homing attack, and Silver, totally qualifies as "the adventure experience". Even if we're generously including the dlc stages.

>>16880118

So it really is that huh?

You do realize those other styles are in the game, just not as huge stories because they don't suit it. In fact they never did, Gammas story was pathetically short for a reason.

Its a retarded condition that these modes require a dedicated story to count. You are definitely not in a majority to take such a requirement.

>>16880123

Shit man, if the shallow differences between the three stories in '06 and having lightspeed dash and shit makes it an adventure successor, then Unleashed could practically qualify with its day and night stages.

>>16880124

So Sonic Adventure 2 isn't an Adventure title because Sonic and Shadow play the exact same?

Also Unleashed was called Sonic World Adventure in Japan, for the record.

>>16880127

Oh shit man, yeah, you're right I totally forgot how Shadow running around fuckin Dry Lagoon. You sure showed me.

>>16880124

Yeah remember all the unique alt playable characters unleashed had lying around that just so happen to be from adventure. Or its story structure.

You don't just play sonic/shadow/silver even in the main game. The DLC didn't add new characters.

And no matter how you slice it, silver is a massively different game mode; for better or worse. It definitely ain't shallow on his end.

But no the returning adventure character is the real killer of the clear links.

>>16880129

and the only thing your showing right now is you have nothing to actually back up your point that 06 shouldn't be considered Adventure 3.

Just because Sonic 06 isn't as good as it should have been that doesn't mean it wasn't essentially Adventure 3. The main reason it was Called just "Sonic The Hedgehog" was simply due to marketing, in hopes of making the game more approachable for first time players, it was intended to be the "You can start here" game. maybe if Sonic 06 wasn't a critical flop and there were more sequels like it, we wouldn't be having this discussion. but 06 is clearly "The end of the Adventure Era" and "The last Adventure game"

>>16880129

Yeah, Tails having the exact same levels as Sonic sure makes him not a unique character. Look, if Shadow were too different people would complain that's not what Shadow was, and Silver plays very differently. It's sort of between 1 and 2. I've never played any of these games and I can tell this from a glance, retard.

>>16880242

>spindash jump can go very far

Spindash jump isn't a mechanic that naturally occurs in the first place.

Its insanely broken and broke levels anyway. If you seriously think that would ever be ported even to an "adventure 3" i don't know what to tell you.

>especially when talking about Sonic-style levels,

I like the "especially" because if you bring in the point of specialization; their tools no longer become game breaking but a fundamental tool to even progress.

So its not an especially case, however yes; new levels were always better, tails is still an easy mode in 2D and always will be. This isn't a different case in 3D if you give him the same.

Most 3D games are story based anyway, you wouldn't be doing an "alt clear" you'd be doing a separate run of the level for the plot anyway. Or as a bonus as you mentioned.

"Cheesing" the level is a lot of a problem if you're going to have to do the level anyway.

>and add ceilings everywhere

Even 3D sonic doesn't have design that suddenly loops in on itself, what are you on. Basically no sonic level has the geometry where this would actually happen.

You go foward, this is 90% of any video game; this doesn't mean straight forward, but it sure as shit is going to happen.

>can't have paths that cross so levels will have to be long corridors mainly

Just don't lay them on top close enough to each-other. This is a non-issue except for a very niche visual choice.

It doesn't suddenly break any sort of turn.

>And what kind of platforming, hitting dash rings?

Gee maybe more precise air movements to get to a platform, you know you'd expect from levels designed with flight in mind.

Its almost like the 2D solution was as an easy mode.

>You're saying that's all climbing is good for?

No, thats why i compared it to momentum vs dash pad.

>>16880256

>"Cheesing" the level is a lot of a problem if you're going to have to do the level anyway.

Meant to say isn't a lot of a problem whoops.

>>16880256

>Spindash jump isn't a mechanic that naturally occurs in the first place.

I honestly thought it was needed for this mission because I didn't have the Mystic Melody by the time I tried it and then stuck to that method.

>>16879532

If I remember correctly they got fucked by a mobile game project by the same company that fucked NIS over.

>>16880400

>I don't know who this E-Celeb is

He's essentially Irish Markiplier, and I only know who these e-celebs are because I sometimes have to babysit my nephew and he's big into the jewtube "lets player" community

>>16881219

I just checked his twitter,what the fuck is up with all the family guy and fetish shit?

At least it seems he's still in love with JSR. I'm still concerned holy shit.

>>16881840

Look, I'm aware of the lugia joke, but I think there's a bit of a difference here.

>>16877354

I grew up with the Genesis games but still liked the Adventure games. They felt like the natural progression of the series. I was waiting for Sonic in proper 3D, and when it finally came, it was that, and much more. Sonic Adventure was amazing at the time, and to this day I'm convinced the retroactive dislike for it is almost all from people who only played it years later on Gamecube, when it was no longer one of the most technologically impressive games out there. I also suspect a lot of them were Nintendo fans who were never into Sonic to begin with, and went into it expecting something even more different than those people who actually (for some reason) expected a 2D game that played exactly like Sonic & Knuckles in 1999. This shit was then exacerbated by Dimps games and Sonic X, and now we have Boost Sonic.

>>16877426

>Eggman just cuts the bullshit and admits he's the real Shadow Gerald made during true final boss, after getting those 10 endings, 7 minutes when the player (and everyone else) is near death.

I like this. By this point Shadow, and hopefully the player, have already realized that it doesn't matter. It's just a cool easter egg that most people would never notice. It's not important, but it's neat to know.

>>16877452

>Story wise it's probably a bit harder to appeal to them.

Just do a story that isn't just postmodern shit that acts as if the people both playing and creating only like the series ironically. it would be nice to keep building upon the stuff that came before, but I was satisfied with Unleashed even though it didn't do that. But at least it wasn't just shitty humor and it felt like the people making it at least knew the old games even if they weren't referencing them. Or just go Mania's route and don't give a fuck about story. Frankly, if I were to get autistic, I'd say Mania has some plot inconsistencies, but it's fine because Mania barely even pretends to have a story.

>>16877528

Sounds like you're arguing Boost is fine because it's like the Dimps games. But when people say they want 2D Sonic, they mean Sonic 2/3/K/CD, not anything by Dimps. Adventure/Adventure 2 already adapted 2/3/K well. People just complain about the other characters. So fine, don't have them. Just do more Sonic levels.

>>16877895

Honestly, even though the gimmick of Shadow the Hedgehog is that he can be either good or evil, the story seems to revolve around more his search for identity, rather than his search for morality. His morality ends up being a secondary consequence of how he comes to find his identity. I do think that character arc still proves to be interesting, and it is different from his arc in Adventure 2, even though it is built off of elements introduced in Adventure 2. You could argue he already came to the same conclusions in that game as well, but it's not really explored as much as the stuff about morality and his mission. His own game then also focuses more on the idea of "does it even matter?" That's in his first game, but not really given much attention.

>>16878007

The '06 hate is annoying because most of it isn't even about the parts that actually make the game bad. It's all parroted from retarded e-celebs and proves the people saying it never played it themselves. For a really clear example, look at AVGN. He did one episode where he did Sonic '06 and played it for himself and actually made real criticisms, such as the load times and the empty town stages. Then the fat guys they hired to be his handlers told him that he wasn't parroting Game Grumps enough, so they made him do a second episode where he just said all the same stupid shit everyone else says, which aren't nearly as valid as his complaints in his first episode. But those fat guys are all about just making him like every other e-celeb, even though they're all poor imitations of AVGN in the first place.

>>16877392

Even the 8-bit spinoff games that take place before Sonic 2 had an arc of sorts.

>>16882412

Sonic was fighting Eggman in a realistic modern city since literally his second game.

>>16882418

And don't forget the deepest, most groundbreaking story in any video game ever.

>>16882409

>(((Localizers))) just removed most of it and replaced it with forgettable kids stuff that had barely anything to do with the source material

To be fair, i wouldn't really call stuff like Stay Sonic this and those were the early offerings.

But then the blatantly non-sonic based SaTaM took over the western side, its really strange that they even did it anyway; its not like that old story bible actually conflicted with that early sonic.

Ironically it definitely wasn't their intention to detach so heavily from the games, they just warped all western canon to reflect SaTaM. Which makes the erasure of the what sonic 1 and such had weirder.

>>16882411

So if the real Shadow died at the end of SA2 does that mean the Shadow in Shadow and '06 is just an Eggman clone?

>>16882442

IIRC in one of the endings he's the real deal

at the same time, Heroes seriously implied that he was a clone

it seems that the black alien fucker from Shadow rescued him from the fall

>>16882442

Heroes leaves it up in the air. Shadow (the game) outright confirms he was rescued by Eggman after falling to Earth in SA2, which is why he was being kept in one of Eggman's facilities.

>>16882409

Fan-conjecture isn't lore.

>>16882386

I actually played a demo of Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast at Sam's Club as a kid, I wasn't impressed. I mean it was only the first level as Sonic, maybe the first hub world or whatever, but I didn't think it was mind blowing, or even better than the N64 platformers at the time, and I'm somebody who thinks most of Nintendo's SNES library has problems.

Saying boost is bad because Dimps did it is like saying 2D Sonic is bad because Dimps did it. There's a more nuanced argument here to be made about game design, but I only know enough to say that boost can theoretically work in 2D or 3D without providing any specific examples. I'm sure one of us can dig up a hack of one of the disassembled Sonic games that happens to have the boost mechanic so we can get an idea of how it would work.

>>16882442

>>16882494

In Shadow the Hedgehog, if you fight the last boss for like five minutes (which is difficult, because like most other last bosses where you're super, your rings are draining and the challenge is killing the boss quickly before you run out of rings to collect), Eggman comes on the radio and tells you that you are the real Shadow. He found Shadow's body after he fell to Earth in Sonic Adventure 2. But this is just a secret little easter egg that most people would never hear, because the entire point of the game is that it doesn't matter. Shadow doesn't give a shit, because he's decided to not be defined by his past, and realized that he is himself, and that's all that matters. He is who he chooses to be. So he never really reacts to Eggman's revelation, which makes sense, since most players would never hear it anyway.

>>16882679

>I actually played a demo of Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast at Sam's Club as a kid, I wasn't impressed.

I guess everything is subjective, but I recall the reception to the game being very good at the time, as was the initial reception to the Dreamcast itself. Of course, the Dreamcast was made obsolete two years after release, less than a year after its international release, and Sonic Adventure stopped looking technologically impressive. I still think it's a good game, though. Not my favorite ever, but has a lot going for it. I appreciate its ambition. The sequel is better though.

>Saying boost is bad because Dimps did it is like saying 2D Sonic is bad because Dimps did it.

That's not what I'm saying. What I was saying is that saying Boost is good because it was done in 2D first is dumb. Everyone seems to be able to agree that the Genesis games set the standard. They should be trying to emulate those. If they're doing 3D games, they should try to translate the gameplay of those Genesis games into 3D. Boost is translating the Dimps games into 3D, but I don't think anyone would argue that the Dimps games were as good as the Genesis games. It's building off of a lesser foundation.

>>16882518

Only some of those pics have a large degree of fan conjecture. Most of it is right there in the games or manuals, if people pay attention and think about how the elements relate to each other. These are video games, and shouldn't spend too much time shoving story in your face. The best video game stories are the ones that give you a story but leave it subtle enough that you kind of have to think about it and put it together. People think Metal Gear is such a great story because it shoves it in your face and you have to watch dozens of hours of cutscenes. They're just plebs who need things spoonfed to them, and can't grasp the subtle narrative masterpieces of things like Shadow the Hedgehog's origin, or Donkey Kong's Great Ape War. This is why the Zelda Timeline is a popular topic. It's there if you play the games yourself and pay attention, but it's subtle enough to be fun to put together. It's not shoved in your face.

>>16882732

You're misrepresenting my argument. Boost is not currently good, but it could theoretically be good if effort was put in to figure out what works and what doesn't. Please read through the entire discussion, you're clearly trying to given how many post you're responding to.

>>16882744

I did read the entire discussion. I guess I wasn't replying to your entire argument, but a small part of it. I didn't mean to misrepresent your whole argument, but can see how you thought I was.

I guess you could salvage boost, but I wouldn't be interested anyway, since I'm much more interested in stuff that feels like a 3D translation of the Genesis games, since those are the games that everyone agrees set the standard for the franchise. Boost in all forms, including in 2D, feels like a radical departure from that. A radical misunderstanding of what the original games actually were, based on people who probably never even played the originals.

>>16882750

I agree with you, generally. Sonic needs a strong baseline to go off of. I guess I'm just thinking ahead because Sonic's gameplay has been talked to death and it's theoretically easy, even if momentum physics and Sonic CD intro stuff is hard to do on a technical end. I think I've mentioned before, but even Sonic Team was on a track with Billy Hatcher's physics, don't know why they didn't use that as a base for anything. And while Tails or Knuckes are alright additions, and could work in 3D, I feel there's more room to explore other mechanics in the 3D space that might work even better, you know? Like, Tails and Knuckles were sort of made for Sonic 3's level design (since Tails couldn't fly under player control in Sonic 2), it stands to reason there's something else that could be done with Blaze in 3D. Of course I'm also the guy who thinks translating Big the Cat to 2D involves Umihara Kawase gameplay so maybe I'm just retarded.

>>16882760

Yeah but i don't think boost is that mechanic as i noted, it requires even more warping to the character than even climbing/flying.

Its true that flying/climbing can definitely be beaten in regards to meshing better with sonics normal level design though, undoubtedly.

>Of course I'm also the guy who thinks translating Big the Cat to 2D involves Umihara Kawase gameplay so maybe I'm just retarded.

I mean thats like the only logical path, Bigs gimmick is his fishing rod.

>>16879274

https://voca.ro/lmsvmppgSbP

>>16882760

Sonic '06 had the right idea for Tails and Knuckles in 3D. They had linear, non-racing stages for them there, and conceptually they were fine. They just weren't executed well. Knuckles in particular worked fine. That said, to get the most out of them you'd probably want to put them in different levels than Sonic, and at that point, maybe a lot of people just want them to do a good Sonic-only game first, which I can understand. I like the other characters in Adventure 1/2, but Sonic's gameplay is the best.

What I wish would happen is that the Mania team just makes more 2D games that try to evolve from Mania the same way Mania tried to evolve from Sonic & Knuckles. I would also bring in elements from the 3D games that could work in 2D, such as the Score/Ranking and Mission systems from Adventure 2.

Maybe they could even use characters who were introduced in 3D, but find a way to translate them to 2D. Like Shadow is easy enough. He's a palette swap. And Rouge can be a pallete swap of Knuckles or Tails. But if you want to make them different, maybe Rouge can't climb but she can fly like Tails and glide like Knuckles, and Shadow can have extra attacks like the W-spin or an upgraded version of that instead of extra agility moves like drop-dash and the elemental shields. Then again, this is probably too much to ask since the whole point of Mania is ignoring the 3D games, and Sega ignores the Adventure era characters anyway. It would be a miracle just to get the ranking and mission systems in, and I do think that would be a much better addition.

Of course, this is moot because first priority is making everyone from Chaotix playable, since I want all the characters who were already playable in 2D.

For 3D, just do a game that's just Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic/Shadow style stages. Perfect that and do a whole game of it. People are fickle about 3D Sonic games, so do one good one focusing on the fundamentals before doing extra stuff.

>>16880256

>Even 3D sonic doesn't have design that suddenly loops in on itself, what are you on Basically no sonic level has the geometry where this would actually happen.

See webm related. It's an extreme but still valid example.

>Just don't lay them on top close enough to each-other. This is a non-issue except for a very niche visual choice.

yes, let's make all levels flat

>You go foward, this is 90% of any video game

plenty of levels feature vertical sections. Speed Highway, Final Egg, Final Rush, Lost World, etc. Levels in Heroes tend to resemble your description more often though.

>tails is still an easy mode in 2D and always will be. This isn't a different case in 3D if you give him the same

Skipping entire sections of a level is cheesing, not easy mode. It's more akin to flying above the stage in 2D games. Also look at embed related for numerous examples on why gliding/climbing are broken. Further, Knuckles and Tails's edge over Sonic in 2D is greatly downplayed by the fact that levels generally have walls and ceilings everywhere (floor of upper route is lower route's ceiling, ceilings can have hazards, walls make you come down), you can't see far ahead or below, and it's much easier to keep things out of Tails's/Knuckles's reach or add obstacles higher up (that would look out of place in your typical 3D Sonic game, e.g. who the fuck puts metal spikes on the ceiling of a casino).

I can still only imagine flight working like FLUDD from Super Mario Sunshine (basically Sonic Heroes's system further gimped with time limit+lower height cap+rechargeable resource), and stages consisting of obstacles like multiple sets of lasers similar to those at the beginning of Final Egg, or the color floor tile puzzles in Digital Circuit from Shadow the Hedgehog.

>>16880263

>The plan was never to give Eggman either emerald, but to only use the fake one to sabotage the eclipse canon.

It was, but if Tails put 2 and 2 together and didn't hand over the real emerald (which would have doomed everyone), instead calling Sonic and telling him to come back, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't know you don't admit to your mad scientist archenemy with a doomsday weapon holding a goddamn hostage at gunpoint that you're trying to dupe him with a fake.

>Tails being intelligent in terms of IQ, doesn't necessarily mean he's wise

Speaking of that, I believe it's a giant plot hole that Eggman let Amy go and fought Tails instead of continuing to threaten to shoot her.

>>16882732

>which is difficult, because like most other last bosses where you're super, your rings are draining and the challenge is killing the boss quickly before you run out of rings to collect

You will never run out of rings. Every time the boss warps and throws rubble at you there are 3 20 ring capsules. Of course, as you damage it there will be more rubble obstructing in your way.

>>16883477

>It was, but if Tails put 2 and 2 together and didn't hand over the real emerald (which would have doomed everyone), instead calling Sonic and telling him to come back, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't know you don't admit to your mad scientist archenemy with a doomsday weapon holding a goddamn hostage at gunpoint that you're trying to dupe him with a fake.

>Speaking of that, I believe it's a giant plot hole that Eggman let Amy go and fought Tails instead of continuing to threaten to shoot her.

Your think about the entire situation with far too much hindsight

People make mistakes when they are caught off guard. Tails didn't Admit the plan. Eggman said he was already ware of the plan, which he was. Tails question of "how did you know it wasn't the real one?", simply slipped out, because it was supposed to be impossible for Eggman to know a fake one existed. Tails didn't know Eggman knew there was two emeralds, he didn't suspect Eggman of being aware of the plan. He was blindsided. Tails didn't hand over the real emerald because Eggman wasn't asking for the emerald yet, Sonic was called back due to Eggman calling for him to come back, Eggman likely asked nothing of Tails until Sonic got there.

Eggman didn't consider Tails a threat, so then Eggman let his guard down a bit thinking Tails was spineless, Eggman didn't have time to react and get full control of the situation again when lasers started flying by his head by an enraged Tails.

Spontaneous things can happen and fuck up a plan very easily when you don't know what someone is capable of, and both Tails and Eggman where caught off guard by each other. it's not a plot hole if you allow human error to exist.

>>16883547

>Eggman let his guard down a bit thinking Tails was spineless,

That's kind of a weak explanation and a huge moment of stupidity of Eggman's, if true. Tails had already solo'd Eggman in a giant walker without a mech in the previous game, and the two had already fought each other with no canonically clear winner when he first held Amy at gunpoint during the raid on Prison Island. Letting his guard down around Tails isn't a small slip-up caused by a sudden surprise, it's a fuck-up of monumental proportions caused by not learning anything about Tails in all their previous encounters.

>>16883477

>Also look at embed related for numerous examples on why gliding/climbing are broken.

If anything, that embed made me wonder why it is that it seems like the Sonic games don't actually require the player to be good at the game and seem relatively easy. Skip to 9:36 and just take a look at Sonic bouncing off of the walls with tricks I didn't even know were possible.

Why do none of the games require that high level of playability?

>>16883559

Why you could say Eggman "should" have considered Tails more of a threat, but it's clearly he didn't, just by Eggman's quotes in that fight. "Your no match for me you weak little Fox" to be followed by "No… I can't lose to, TAILS!"

Eggman thought he finally took care of Sonic, and saw the rest of his world conquest as now undisputed. Eggman's ego wouldn't let him consider "Sonic's Sidekick" as a legitimate threat.

>>16883563

Most Sonic games don't require the player to be great at them to simply beat them the normal way, that's why the 1 ring rule exists. BUT the games Do usually require the player to build up their skills if they want to 100% them. If you die a single time in a level it usually becomes impossible to get an A/S rank.

>>16883477

>yes, let's make all levels flat

Yeah okay except thats not what i was implying, the amount of stages where this is necessary are minuscule; and could just be larger vertical gap wise is what i was implying.

>basically Sonic Heroes's

I really want to stress that heroes flight felt god awful and a super gimped version would even be worse.

You would have a tails that feels like an even clunkier mech flight. Which would definitely not be any fun.

Once again its not hard to just not make any stages that are super breakable mandatory to them, foresight isn't that hard to do.

Nobody wants to do the heroes thing anyway in terms of stages anyway.

>Skipping entire sections of a level is cheesing, not easy mode

Gee who knew 2D had a cheese character, or wait; no if a character is just allowed to do this its 100% an easy mode. Cheese implies it wasn't intended.

Which obviously is in that but anything that would let you have tails in a 3D sonic stage isn't.

>that would look out of place in your typical 3D Sonic game

Despite what you seem to be pushing, most 3D sonic games are either super gamey stage wisemeaning yes it doesn't matter is weird shit is flying in the sky or are cities; those things you can put tall structures like bridges for this.

>>16883494

You can't embed and post shit still i'm quite sure.

Just started Forces and I can already see some flaws. Sonic gets his ass handed to him five seconds after Green Hill and then Eggman conquers the world offscreen. No cutscene to show him doing it, just a text crawl telling you he did. At least the gameplay seems fun so far.

>>16884636

wait until you get to classic sonic

>>16877472

The greatest decline in sonic OST's is that people forget how much of it's music is pure black people music, like if you had more of that choir shit and romanticision of SPEED, the fun factor would increase exponentially- it's like Ichigo's Black choir theme from bleach- shit is bread and butter. Now it's all fucking crush 40, and rehashing the older tracks in covers, styles and samples.

The greatest dissapintment I've ever experienced in sonic is heroes- my sonic autism phase was a near religious worship of Metal sonic and my first game with him in it was a cop-out for a giant flabberjaster monster instead of a fucking race/collision speed arena, I personally never liked shadow, and considered him a comprimise/needless addition before metal sonic, who had a whole "beat you become you" thing going on/overthrowing his creator once he'd succeed shcthick.

That, and no matter what team I played with on the ps2 port- the 4th chaos emerald was impossible to get, so I could never 100% the game- but I had that problem with every sonic game I played, bar R- which I know so well that I can revisit it and usually beat it all in one sitting, characters unlocked.

>>16879683

>TFW C-chan may kill panders and we may get Knothhole 90's as fuck sonic freedom fighters vidya as foretold in the autism scrolls, complete with 'SACRIFICE MY LIFEFORCE TO GET MY CUNNY POUNDED amy'

>>16885193

Sonic R's soundtrack is not "pure black people music".

>>16885194

Sega has absolutely no interest in anything related to SatAM. They already own the characters from the show; they could freely use Sally, Bunnie, and Rotor whenever, even in the current IDW comics. They just don't want to.

>>16885210

>Sega has absolutely no interest in anything related to SatAM. They already own the characters from the show; they could freely use Sally, Bunnie, and Rotor whenever, even in the current IDW comics. They just don't want to.

Sega Japan never liked how Sega of the West went over their heads back in the 90s and decided to make their own canon instead of using the canon and story that was already set in Sonic's Japanese manuals.

>>16885225

Wasn't the original Japanese story for the games pretty much based around Sonic being a rock star, with Robotnik crashing one of his concerts while searching for the chaos emeralds so that he could make the world's largest hard-boiled egg?

>>16885285

That was a scrapped concept. The canon they went with is that Eggman wanted the Chaos emeralds to rule the world and they are on South Island, an island that moves with the power of the emeralds to prevent people from finding it. He uses Robots that have critters as organic batteries to scout the island in search of them. Anyway, Sonic already knew Eggman before the events of Sonic 1 with an Arcade prequel called "SegaSonic the Hedgehog."

>>16885292

What makes you say that SegaSonic is a prequel?

>>16885225

The separate canons thing was a collaborative decision, though. Hell, Sonic's design was a result of the two sides of the Pacific collaborating.

>>16885210

>Sega has absolutely no interest in anything related to SatAM.

No, it's more or less just Ian Fynn hating the SatAM and wanting them gone. If the archie comic were to continue, he was apparently going to get rid of them all.

>>16885285

and he had a human Girlfriend, decades before Princess Elise

>>16885629

What the hell are you talking about? Flynn has shown no animosity to the cast and even put in effort to make them more notable, like have an entire mini-arc about Nicole's past. Hell, he grew up creating fan comics of the Archie cast. I'd really like a source for your claim that's not "some anon said so."

>>16885225

consider that the Japanese release of Sonic 1 actually came out AFTER the US release. By a whole month in fact

it's entirely possible that the story materials in Japan weren't ready for the US marketing team

>>16885724

>Flynn has shown no animosity to the cast and even put in effort to make them more notable

No, he was trying to kill them off. The only reason it didn't take for the freedom fighters was because the fanbase got fucking pissed and it made him get cold feet.

>Going in, I knew roboticizing Sally would upset the readers. The entire saga was meant to upset and unsettle, but I knew she was going to be a big thing. Antoine’s sacrifice was supposed to eclipse even that.

>If we went through with it, he would’ve died a hero and been the rallying point for Sonic and the others. Even if we held back on killing him off, his injuries served the same effect. The question we had going in was whether or not we really wanted to go that far – was it enough to leave him injured? Or was not following through a waste of Antoine’s sacrifice?

>The fans decided it for us. The fan reaction to both Sally’s roboticization and Antoine’s injury was bigger than I anticipated. It was enough that the editor and I agreed that it was better to have Antoine live.

>So, in a way, Sally – and the fandom - saved

Antoine’s life.

https://www.bumbleking.com/lht/Lost%20Hedgehog%20Tales%20-%20Part%201.pdf

He also got rid of a ton of the OCs from that shitty fucking comic, and according to him, the goal was always to make the comics more in line with the games.(@5:33 in the video)

>>16885761

Flynn killed Tommy Turtle, and for that he shall always be a hero

>>16885761

You're mistaking his desire to make an emotionally impacting story, by having some events of actual consequence, for ire towards the characters. Nowhere does he mention any distaste for the original freedom fighters. And I'd hardly take an overreactionary video from idiot fans as serious evidence against the guy's intentions.

>He also got rid of a ton of the OCs from that shitty fucking comic

Yes, because most of them were shit and incredibly extraneous to the plotline. However, he not only kept Anti-Sonic but developed him into Scourge, re-introduced one of the dead Metal Sonics as Shard, brought back Ixis Naugus as a primary villain, turned Finitevus from a background Echidna into a major villain, and worked a lot with several OCs of the comic, even expanding upon one that was originally a throwaway mention by Bunnie. His intention wasn't to completely removed anything not from the games, but just improve the comic by trimming off all the useless waste and making something meaningful out of what was left.

>the goal was always to make the comics more in line with the games

More in line with them doesn't mean exactly like them. You can see exactly what he wanted with post-reboot Archie. There he created a universe that tied not only the stories of the games, but also SatAM and characters from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, while also introducing original characters and concepts not found in pre-existing Sonic material. It was recognizably "Sonic the Hedgehog", while still being a more expanded, thought-out setting than what is actually found in the games.

>>16885193

Protip: Try switching to power formation in the special stages when there's bombs abound. They're not as fast as speed types, but are more controllable whilst still being faster than flight formation. Useful for boosting along the walls and ceiling without slowing down or falling off as much.

>>16885292

There was a promotional manga for Sonic 1 that made use of that

>>16877356

>If there is one thing that has united the biggest group of Sonic fans despite their clashing ideals for the series, it's the common hatred of people who shit on Sonic.

I dunno, they seem pretty united on their hate of ken "pedotache" penders.

>>16886075

>the lawsuit

There were 3 lawsuits weren't there?

I'd never even heard of the guy until recently when, out of sheer curiosity I went looking for the Archie comic and stumbled across this fucker.

I read somewhere that he tried to claim something like 90% of the sonic franchise belongs to him, all because he made some ocdonutsteal tier characters in a spin-off comic.

>>16886118

>There were 3 lawsuits weren't there?

He was also getting other writers to file them, fucker really went the distance to try and shut that fucking comic down.

http://archive.is/vpHye

>>16877366

I don't get it. Is the Sonic on the top supposed to be different?

>>16877388

How is it different, exactly?

>>16886271

I don't understand his ego tbh. He can't write, he's sure as shit no artist, how the actual fuck did he get so full of himself?

>>16886275

>You might also be thinking of the fact he used a picture of knuckles in one of his pages

Possibly, I read a lot of shit in a short amount of time so I've probably got some things mixed around.

>>16886275

>>16886257

Do characters not know how to sit in chairs in these comics?

>>16886243

>>16886241

Well the difference is Sonic can be split into how Gameplay, or how Story is approached.

When it comes to gameplay you can look at The Adventure era Sonic as an Obstacle course, you just need to get to the end, and it's up to the player exactly what methods they use to get there, you could priorities speed or combing enemies, or both to reach the score needed for an A rank, but you were mostly rewarded for simply never dying.

Boost era Sonic it much more a Race track, there is very much a Correct way to play though the levels perfectly. you use the boost at the right times, and take the correct shortcuts, and you finish the level in the lowest time possible, Speed became the number one priority, rather then the player using abilities however they wish. more so with things like the wisps you can only use the more unique abilities when the game deems your aloud to use those abilities. Where with the Adventure games you got new abilities that you could take back to previous levels and do new things with them.

There is also Focusing on only Sonic as a playable character, which just needlessly restrict what the games are capable of when you have an entire cast of characters who all have tons of potential for how they're gameplay can evolve.

Story wise, it's a simple matter of stakes. the Adventure era for better or worse took itself seriously, so when shit hit the fan there were actual consequences that the actions of the characters had, success or failure meant something, and characters had actual chemistry with each other, they got along or clashed based on they're personalities, or current goals.

Boost Era basically just forgets any and all development the characters had acquired over 1998-2006 as well as forgetting characters who aren't Sonic Tails and Eggman, and if they do show up they aren't able to actually doing anything that effects the story. there is also the fact basically nothing in the story is taken seriously, the game treats the very fact it has a story as a joke, meaning it's impossible to actually give a shit about anything happening due to their being no stakes, the cutscenes are just filler between levels and nothing more.

—

The best way I can put it is, Before Sonic colors it felt like Sonic Team was actually passionate about the Sonic games they were making, regardless of how detailed the plots for these anthropomorphic animals ended up getting. after Sonic 06 it was pointed out how seriously they were taking the games, and now they are afraid of actually putting in effort or passion again, or anyone who actually used to put in effort and passion isn't even apart of Sonic team anymore.

Sonic Fans WANT to give a shit about Sonic characters, but they have a pretty hard time with what's currently being given to them.

>>16886257

>>16886275

To further elaborate, this is what he's recently had to say about the state of his series.

>>16886279

Narcissists generally don't need a reason to be full of themselves, they just are.

>>16886356

This looks like some Johnny Five Aces tier shit. The Brigador one, I mean.

>>16885193

>my sonic autism phase was a near religious worship of Metal sonic and my first game with him in it was a cop-out

>autistic for a character from games you didn't even play

This might be the worst kind of autism in this thread. And that's saying something.

Also, the Adventure games at least still had black people music, even if it was largely for Knuckles. And Adventure 1 in particular had a lot of jazz. Sonic '06 has an Akon rap cover of Sweet Dreams. I think complaining about Crush 40 is a moot point, since the sound also changed heavily, along with everything else, with the switch to Modern Sonic starting with Unleashed. Crush 40 isn't relevant anymore. They're well remembered but haven't been a big presence in the actual Modern Sonic games. They're there, but not much.

I'd argue the "black people music" wasn't even so much that, but rather a japanese interpretation of black people music, which is what made it so interesting. I'd say it sounds distinctly Japanese, even though it is obviously a lot of jazz, rap, and disco inspired stuff.

And also, a lot of early Sonic tracks aren't those genres. I could buy the argument that Sonic CD has a black people sound, but I don't think I'd buy it Sonic 1, 2, 3, or K.

>>16885285

Scrapped concept. But Sonic can be seen singing in the credits of the 8-bit Sonic 1. And Vector was going to be one of the members of his band, which is likely why Team Chaotix's Team Blast in Heroes is them being in a band.

The Hard Boiled Egg thing is from the first Sonic 1 manga, which is otherwise very accurate to the game. The rockstar bit is in there, but honestly, it does kind of fit with Sonic's canon persona, and doesn't contradict anything.

See >>16882412

>>16885292

>>16885313

Nothing ever says SegaSonic is a prequel, but it, along with Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car and SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter Galaxy Patrol sorta work as prequels since they don't feature the Chaos Emeralds, Eggman putting animals in robots, or characters who Sonic meets later, like Tails or Knuckles. See >>16882418

The manual for Sonic 1 says Sonic and Eggman have fought many times before, but that game was the first time Eggman put animals in robots, and the first time they found out about the Chaos Emeralds or South Island.

The only actual confirmed prequel in the series is Tails Adventure. And I suppose you could say Flicky takes place before Sonic 1 as well, but it wouldn't be a prequel since it was released first.

>>16885737

The game was clearly made with the Japanese canon in mind though. Eggman is clearly visually an egg themed villain, even though western localizers removed it. (And of course, his Japanese name is written on Wing Fortress Zone in Sonic 2). The Chaos Emeralds are barely ever mentioned in western materials, and when they are, they're fucked up, even though they're one of the only notable things in the story of Sonic 1. You have Sonic, Eggman, animals trapped in robots, and magic gems. It's not like there was so much material that they simply couldn't cover it all properly in adaptations.

>>16885761

The obvious thing to do once someone not totally insane took over writing the series was to bring it more in line with the games, so that fans of the games, little kids, the obvious target audience for the entire franchise including the comics, could actually understand the basics of the comic if they picked it up. The comic was pretty much 100% different from the games, which is ridiculous, since the games have a way bigger audience, and the only new people who would ever join the audience are fans of the games, the source material of the franchise. People who don't like Sonic games aren't going to pick up a comic called Sonic the Hedgehog, not over a decade (and eventually two) after the cartoons that the comic is slightly closer to were cancelled.

And yet, despite all that, Flynn's enormous and admirable autism lead him to very, very slowly and gradually move in this direction. Even after an entire Crisis event (Sonic Genesis) his biggest change was removing the stupid shit that said Eggman and Robotnik were different people. Even after a second Crisis, largely brought on by legal shit, he still kept the Freedom Fighters and basically had both SatAM and Adventures as canon, just now the games were finally canon too. It was only after Archie lost the entire license and a new company forced a full reboot that he finally just did what he should have done all along and make the core cast actually be the cast from the games, instead of the cast from an almost unrelated cartoon that was cancelled over 20 years previous.

And then he kept adding his own OCs, making them the stars of spinoffs and everything. And I realized that he barely learned a damn thing.

>>16886307

Note that the gameplay and story both changed at the same time, after Sonic '06, so it makes the change more noticeable.

I'd also argue they don't just ignore the stuff from 1998-2006, they ignore the earlier stuff too. Never forget that Adventure was the end of the arc from Sonic 1, not the beginning of a new arc. But the new games don't even use the Chaos Emeralds. Sonic Forces has Green Hill on the mainland. I know, story isn't the biggest deal, but let's not pretend they're actually paying attention to the stories of the original games either.

And again I'd argue the gameplay isn't actually similar. Adventure Sonic tried to translate the old 2D gameplay into 3D. Boost Sonic just GOTTA GO FAST. It's barely even a platformer. Look at how Modern Sonic is actually like half 2D, and how those 2D sections play nothing like the old games. They try to compensate with "Classic Sonic." Just look at how those sections suck compared to Sonic Mania.

The people making the games since Colors don't seem to even have played the original games. And of course this was exacerbated when Forces decided to half assedly try to pander to Adventure era fans, despite clearly never actually playing those games, and instead it just came off like Deviantart fanfiction.

>>16887899

His backstory was literally that he was fused with a rotten egg with all the negative energy the chaos emeralds had sucked up.

The original story for western sonic was the bible, not the freedom fighter concept that came quite a bit after.

The egg thing was not jap only ever.

>>16887900

>The people making the games since Colors don't seem to even have played the original games.

Went through Forces Credits, and it seems like the only people who have worked on a sonic game past adventure(Most are much newer than that though, from like Secret Rings and up) is the Producer(who designed Sonic fucking R of all things), Iizuka, and one of the fucking composers who's from the Genesis days, which makes it extra infuriating that vid related exists.

>>16887955

Nah, fanfiction implies the person writing that shit actually cared at some point. Hell, i probably came up with something better just from looking at the scene once:

>Tails: I-Is that Chaos Control!?

This is more like if a social justice warrior wrote the script. No passion, no interest in the subject matter, just doing the bare minimum to get their paycheck. The only thing missing is the progressive agenda, and even then Tails was acting pretty fucking Gay in that game.

>>16881840

>>16889220

epic

>>16880070

>>16880079

>much more disappointment.

Nah, sanic would bee epics :^)

>>16882386

>he '06 hate is annoying because most of it isn't even about the parts that actually make the game bad. It's all parroted from retarded e-celebs and proves the people saying it never played it themselves

this

>>16887996

>and even then Tails was acting pretty fucking Gay in that game.

That's true, but to be fair, Tails has always been hella gay.

The commonality with SJW writers that do comics or other "nerd" stuff is clear. They actively think the stuff series they're writing are beneath them. Just like SJWs at Marvel and DC showing no respect for the characters they're writing, because they think superheroes are stupid. The people writing Sonic games for over ten years now think Sonic is stupid. Because "fans" screeched at Sega for years saying that Sonic was never supposed to have a story anyway. That it was "supposed" to have a stupid story. So they hired people to do that. But at least they keep a tight enough leash on them to not let them put political shit in Sonic games.

>>16887958

>The egg thing was not jap only ever

It was only ever relevant in the Japanese version. The western versions never used the bit you just said. Except for that British comic or whatever.

>>16889820

Reminds me that Ian Flynn and Tracey Yardley sperged over comicsgate and harassment.

>>16889820

>it was only ever relevant in the japanese version

Being called Eggman isn't much of a attachment either honestly.

However the bigger point here is that it was an argument of what "canon" the games were made for. And the bible was western sonic when the games came out.

In actuality it was made for band sonic, but modified for western sonic.

But even then, the jap continuity only became the obvious point around sonic 3.

The "english sonic"because believe it or not, the comic wasn't the only thing; there was quite a few novels and such following the bible; but stuff like stay sonic really was only relevant in britain as well is the only other jap style one in the sense it was built for the games.

SatAm is kinda a sad path to take, i still don't really understand why they thought a random cartoon premise should make up most of western sonic; SatAm wasn't terrible but it clearly was a different series concept with sonic slapped on it.

They even got rid of most of the "animal friend" based characters when finalizing it.

>>16889978

>SatAm wasn't terrible but it clearly was a different series concept with sonic slapped on it

That's a hot take, but i agree

Even when i was a kid, i never was really interested in the SatAm/archie canon and it didn't felt anything like sonic and more of a fan-fic back then to me.

On a other note: I always prefer the pre-forces way of the treating and making their characters with care, then making furry oc and background furry oc everywhere like they did and still somewhat doing with the comics.

>>16890002

Background anthros make sense, sonic and co being a huge exception to the usual population is kind of weird.

I don't mind the forces background fodder outside of not looking exactly great. The comic way of 5000 random worthless characters that are just above background filler, but not to worthwhile degree is pretty silly though.

If a character has any actual spotlight, they should be handled well instead of just sorta slapped in.

Buddy really was just kinda there though, kinda funny to see that he had somewhat of a personality in the earlier script.

>>16890014

>Background anthros make sense

>If a character has any actual spotlight, they should be handled well instead of just sorta slapped in.

That's what the IDW comics are doing right, so it's been 50/50 so far at least.

> they should be handled well instead of just sorta slapped in.

Yeah, that what i'm saying, but 100% all the way.

>exception to the usual population is kind of weird

Considering, what Naoto Ohshima said when talking about the first movie design: archive.fo/m1v2T

>"Sonic is a fairy of hedgehog"

>"Because they are fairies who can live on when people believe in them."

That's kind of point tho, at least in the adventure games and unleashed (what he's interacting with human), he supposed to be a somewhat out of place & whimsical being, like a fairy.

>Background anthros make sense

Agree to disagree, i still didn't like how forces made the background anthros look basic as hell and the comics feels too oc-ish for me, i still fear that IDW's sonic is going to end up the same way that archie was, with it's side and background anthros.

It's just that i prefer the side characters/cast to be well made and developed or at least be (nearly) good as the main character in sonic.

>Buddy really was just kinda there though, kinda funny to see that he had somewhat of a personality in the earlier script.

He did? well fuck me, i would like one well developed buddy then the oc placeholder and generic looking background oc.

>>16890078

That's what they get for using cut-rate furry illustrators. Everyone's off-model. Also why does Antoine have a sword? Did he always have a sword?

>>16890148

all the lines regarding fakes come from that Shadow was initially developed as a character called Terios the Tenrec

a tenrec is a creature that is sometimes known as a fake hedgehog

>>16890169

Hey wait a second, number 4

Are any of the 3D Sonics after Sonic Adventure 2 actually worth playing?

>>16890269

>sonic heroes

>shadOW THE hEDGEhog

>sonic 06 (360 is the best, emulation is even better due to long load times)

it doesn't get any better

>>16890272

None of these are good games though.

I think most people forget that both SA1&2 suffer from horrible translation issues.

>>16890069

The thing with what i was mentioning, is that all other sonic media at the time was doing the same.

It wasn't an Archie only thing, Fleetways sudden "sonic gets flung into the future so Robotnik can take over the world" thing was because of SatAm.

And what media from that era even was different? Mean Bean Machine probably.

Its not like they didn't have other things to pull from, so i suppose the blame falls on SatAm for quickly burning any notable sonic links besides the most basal forms.

>>16890284

I doubt a large portion of people even knew it to forget it.

>>16890292

I totally lost a part of that last bit somehow, i meant in regards to SatAm.

I meant to note they probably were running with production notes to put everything in line with the "big sonic cartoon" and any sort of detachment by the time its distance from its own source was shown too late for them to really switch back naturally.

Well besides rewriting the slate obviously.

>>16886062

Actually back before the reboot and cancellation if you typed up sonic on Deviantart you got a big group full of people that all loved Ken Penders.

>>16890269

Colors(its overrated but its short and has some fun stages), and Generations with Unleashed Day Stages modded in are the only 3D Sonic games to care about after SA2.

>>16890369

care to share some examples, anon?

>>16885193

>WE WUZ SANIC COMPOSERS N SHIET

While Sonic has always had tracks fully or partially inspired by genres created by blacks they were never in the majority. And why do you consider OSTs written and performed entirely by japs and whites "pure black"? Because that was the case until Unknown from M.E. in SA1 (with the possible exception of CD's American intro where the spoken parts don't seem to be credited).

>choir shit

That's called vocals, buddy. And I'd rather have better music than hamfisted vocals like in some of Sonic Forces' levels.

>romantici[zation] of SPEED

Funny how all the songs that do this aren't "black" and were made by whites and japs.

>the fun factor would increase exponentially

If you don't like the music for Final Egg in SA1 one you're subhuman. Oh wait.

>it's like Ichigo's Black choir theme from bleach- shit is bread and butter

The reason "Number One" stands out is neither that it copies from Michael Jackson's "Beat It" nor that it was sung by a negress. It stands out because it's so different from the rest of the soundtrack in sound, rhythm and genre. That's the opposite of bread and butter. You could get the same effect if you shoved a D&B theme into an R&B soundtrack.

>Now it's all fucking crush 40

>Crush 40

>now

>>16890459

>Because that was the case until Unknown from M.E. in SA1 (with the possible exception of CD's American intro where the spoken parts don't seem to be credited).

Sorry, forgot about Michael Jackson in Sonic 3. That still doesn't invalidate my point however.

>>16890269

I'll give a run down, of what I basically feel

>Sonic Heroes

weird physics due to character switching being the main gimmick, the combat can be really fun tho, if you enjoy destroying tons of canon fodder with flashy attacks. starting each level at level zero, and getting the 3 characters to level 3 for more powerful attacks, as well as Team Blasts that have diffrent effects based on each time, keeps the gameplay a little more engaging.

Biggest flaw is the fact the 3 out of 4 teams are just difficulty modes, so your going to be playing the same levels allot, only longer or shorter, if you want to get to the "Last Story"

>Shadow The Hedghog

if you can enjoy the Over the top Edge, then the games writing is very entertaining. Gameplay wise physics are gonna be similar to Sonic Heroes, but Shadow the game is the closest you can get to a 3D Sonic game that is full of only, Sonic/Shadow action stages, since Shadow is the only playable character. biggest flaw is some of the objectives in the levels not being very good, such as "kill every single enemy in the level" and it becomes easy to miss 1, and then have to back track the entire level., your gonna have to play the first level at least 10 times to get all 10 endings and unlock the "Last story"

>Sonic 06

If you can get past the Glitches, and long loading times, it really isn't too awful. you got 3 main characters to play as, with their own styles of gameplay, so there is actually some decent varied content, Silver's gameplay is fun if you like the idea of psychic powers to lift and throw anything and everything at enemies.

- if you liked chasing ranks/emblems in SA1&2 then I feel you might enjoy doing the same in Heroes,Shadow, and 06, since the system is still the same.

Sonic Riders is actually the best 3D Sonic game after SA2 tho.

>Unleashed

allot of people say it's the best boost game, but I feel Sonic's gameplay here is still very jank and unpolished, the scope of the levels are impressive, but you will die constantly the first time you play them due to simply Not knowing what's gonna happen, and not being able to react properly, until you memorize shit.

>Generations

it has more polished boost gameplay and it is worth playing, but the game has no real new ideas since the entire game is just a nostalgia fest, it's extremely easy too out of every Sonic game this is going to be the fastest one to 100%, it does have tons of mods tho.

>Lost World

It honestly feels like they just tried really hard to make a Mario game, but with Sonic in it. since the gameplay doesn't really have anything in it that you would want from Sonic. it's not even awful, it's just Nothing… there was one anon who says the Parkour mechanics are great, but I 100%ed the game and you Never need to actually learn how to uses the Parkour so it's a waste.

>Forces

It's worth it if you just want to make your own Sonic OC, but the game is barely 3 hours long, with a story that face plants at the end instead of fulfilling any of it's potential for what could have been cool shit. if you actually go for all 100% then your play time can actually extend to 30 hours, so there is at least some meat to trying to master the levels. The most fun in the game comes from actually trying to beat the time attack challenges since they are pretty strict and actually require you to git gud. Still the gameplay on it's own isn't gonna be anything too impressive.

>>16890816

Man I remember when I first showed that off to my old forum friends before reposting that on 4chan before the exodus and here after a few times. Miss those pre hyper-politicized days.

While funny and the second half of the interview isn't too out of character, a few things are contradicted a bit in SA2; if you select the Shadow theme and go to the sound test he will say: "I'm not interested" in addition to being fixed on his goal to the point where even says: "There's no time to play games". I guess he has more time to do that nowadays, though.

>>16890892

One of the things that makes me Like Sonic 06 is the Town missions and the little stories they give for the characters. I love that Shadow works for GUN 06 since that Shadow being super literal about his promise to Maria. Helping people in need is straight up Shadow's Job that he gets paid for.

the side missions have neat little things like Shadow actually takes a motorcycle license test, There is some political guys Daughter He has to bodyguard who's a total bitch at first, but she goes though a small bit of character development after Shadow saves her ass from Eggman's Robots. Shadow take a GUN description test, that shows he has an IQ of 200.

>>16890919

I guess I'll post the Sonic and Silver ones too

>>16890921

These Side missions just make me wish even more 06's development wasn't a disaster.

I really wish there could be Yakuza style Side stories in every Sonic game.

>>16890148

>>16890816

This issss why vegeta the hedgehog isss da best :^)

>also a big fan of hot pockets

old 8ch would've lost there shit.

>>16890922

>06's development wasn't a disaster.

>wish there could be Yakuza style Side stories in every Sonic game.

Yee, that fucking sucks anon

I still want a" what if" eggman takes over the world story that doesn't suck.

One of these days I should really write up an actual game design document for a ROM hack/remaster of Chaotix. I've posted it in a Sonic thread on here at least a year ago (if not more, oh god how long has it been), but it's worth it to actually write up something comprehensible instead of a partially insane post on some backwater image board. I've also said before that Chaotix is to Knuckles and the Classic games as Shadow the Hedgehog is to Shadow and the Dreamcast-ish era games, and I'll stand by that statement.

>>16891049

Sounds interesting however;

I really wouldn't compare shadow to chaotix, chaotix is a game built around a gimmick it never really mastered; while shadows gimmick is tacked on really.

Chaotix's entire design is its gimmick despite not really managing to build much variety around it, level design never tries to challenge the main gimmick and the side gimmicks are developed in a sane way.

Its also pretty silly to call a knuckles game, like he exists in it sure but its not like say Tails Adventure where the gameplay very much reflects the character; its just knuckles hanging around the Chaotix for whatever the fuck reason.

I'd much more quickly attach the game to the Chaotix themselves than knuckles.

>>16891091

>the side gimmicks are developed in a sane way.

*aren't developed

>>16889959

Isn't Tracy Yardley the one that said he hated white people because Trump got elected? Bad move for a guy who previously had successful crowdfunding to pay his rent because Archie paid him shit but the fans actually respected him. I doubt his crowdfunding would be successful now.

I met Yardley and Flynn at a con one time. They seemed nice. Tried to act humble when I told them I read the comic for years, but it was never good until they took over. But now they actively hate me for my race and gender, and think it's okay to blackball people out of the industry because they don't like their politics, so I will not buy their product anymore.

>>16889978

>Being called Eggman isn't much of a attachment either honestly.

Sure, but it's more than the western materials ever had. A lot more. Batman doesn't really have much to do with bats other than his name and the visual theme. A bat flew through his window when he was trying to think of a costume idea. It's even more flimsy than western robotnik's origin. But the point is he's bat themed. We get it. Robotnik really isn't.

>But even then, the jap continuity only became the obvious point around sonic 3.

Again, I'd argue otherwise considering how the western materials handled the Chaos Emeralds, which were obviously one of the key points of the games, but were barely used in adaptations, and always fucked up when they were used.

>>16890014

>Background anthros make sense, sonic and co being a huge exception to the usual population is kind of weird.

Whatever they do, the best solution is to not reference it. They're cartoons. The more attention you draw to it, the dumber it's going to be. Even with characters who actually have origins, like Shadow, the point isn't that he's a hedgehog, that's just taken for granted. It's all the other stuff about him that's weird. And that's the way it should be. It would be even dumber otherwise.

>>16890061

>It's just that i prefer the side characters/cast to be well made and developed or at least be (nearly) good as the main character in sonic.

If anything, Sonic himself has such a static personality and role that it's almost required to rely more on other characters. And no, I don't mean this in the way that Archiefags try to justify the Freedom Fighters overshadowing game characters. This does not apply to the rest of the game characters, just Sonic. Practically all the rest of the important characters actually DO have significant growth and occasional moral dilemmas and such, such as Knuckles (actually goes from villain to hero, also see his self discovery in Adventure), Tails and Amy (see Adventure again), Rouge and Omega of course have some deeper inner thoughts going on as they go from villains (or at least mercenaries, in Rouge's case) to heroes, and of course really obvious cases like Gammas or Shadow, or even Eggman as he learns about Gerald.

Sonic doesn't do any of this. Sonic is almost like a plot device. All he cares about is freedom. He'll stop someone trying to stop freedom, because that's what he feels like doing, but he isn't tied down to responsibility like Knuckles, or inner turmoil like Shadow, or infatuation like Amy, or even friendship like Tails.

Of course he has friends, his personality seems to win everyone over eventually, but it's effortless. He's just naturally charismatic, and people happen to like him. He doesn't try to make them like him. He'll ditch Tails if Tails can't keep up. Tails is his best friend precisely because he can keep up, so Sonic doesn't need to give a shit about him.

Unleashed is notable because Sonic actually shows some conflicting personality traits, and it's only because of a plot point that he's infected with an evil god that's corrupting him. And even then the point is that he's so pure he can still mostly control it.

None of this is to say he can't have any emotions at all, but they need to be careful with it, and make sure that they always keep his core personality in mind. It needs to be a big fucking deal if he's going to start crying. Him being lonely in the movie is fucking stupid (yes maybe he has good reason, but it's the first thing we see him do, so it doesn't feel special. It's just his default personality in that movie). He should just be reveling in his powers. Him being so in love with Sally is obviously fucking stupid, especially when he gets cucked. It's not that he dislikes Amy, it's just that he ain't got time for that shit, regardless of which bitch is after him.

It shouldn't be hard. Sonic is like 70% of a ripoff of Dragon Ball Z. Sonic is just Goku. Just give him Goku's personality. Maybe a tiny bit less retarded.

>>16890269

If you really like Sonic Adventure 2, then keep going. But Sonic Adventure 2 is the peak.

>Heroes

Adventure 2 but with that team gimmick and nothing about it is as polished. Level designs aren't nearly as good, and there isn't nearly as much depth due to the Mission system being more like Adventure 1 than 2.

>Shadow

Adventure 2 but just the Sonic style stages (actually an improvement) and with guns. But again, even less polished than Heroes. Level designs are worse again. Actually has the best morality system in practically any game ever, not that that's saying much. I think the game is alright, but if you don't like Heroes then you won't like this.

>'06

It's like Adventure 1 but it's an alpha prototype. Could have been good, even great, but wasn't even close to finished. Not as bad as everyone says. Still not good. If you're a big fan of the series, or if you actually liked Heroes and Shadow, you can give it a try.

>Unleashed

Totally new gameplay and story direction. I don't like either the gameplay or story styles as much as before, but at least this game is actually very polished and has tons of content. Boost Sonic is introduced here, which some people like, and is still the dominant style. Also half the game is a God of War clone and people hate it. I don't. But I can see why you wouldn't want it in a Sonic game. Story is much less autistic than previous games, but still actually gives a shit. Also still fairly autistic though. I like everything but the gameplay. But the gameplay is still alright. Just not my thing.

>Colors

Fake fans who say they wanted "Classic Sonic" love this, despite not playing anything like Classic Sonic. It's mostly 2D but controls very differently. The 3D sections are basically Hold B to Win. But it has no story, it was mostly 2D, and the 3D sections were "fast," so fake fans liked it. Also it's very short. It's not a terrible game or anything, but certainly not my favorite.

>Generations

It's the parts people liked from Unleashed (not the God of War stuff) but also half the game is "Classic Sonic" (as opposed to the 2D parts of Unleashed and Colors and Modern Sonic in this game, which no longer pretend to play like the old games. The story is a non-factor like Colors, but what is there is they go to old levels (with new designs) so there's a nostalgia factor. It's a little short but what's there is at least high quality, even though I'm not a big fan of Modern Sonic. If you hate Heroes (sequel to Adventure 2), skip to Unleashed (start of a new style). If you hate Unleashed, skip to this Generations. If you don't like Generations, don't bother, because it's the best one.

>>16890400

Most of it is one guy named BobR, who I still suspect was Penders himself. Anyone else was probably BobR's sockpuppets.

>>16890500

>gonna have to play the first level at least 10 times to get all 10 endings and unlock the "Last story"

Yeah, but there are three objectives, so really you're doing each objective three/four times. And there are hidden items and a ranking system, so really you'd probably play it more than three/four times anyway, if you're trying to do anything beyond just the story.

>>16890919

>One of the things that makes me Like Sonic 06 is the Town missions and the little stories they give for the characters.

I loved this bit in Adventure, and was very disappointed that '06 didn't have the time to actually finish their attempt to bring it back. The Town Stages end up feeling empty and lifeless and the NPCs stories aren't as interesting. Also the load times make it brutal to actually explore or do the side missions. That said, I do actually think '06 has a good story. Especially Shadow's part.

Adventure 1 really impresses me with how every bit of NPC dialogue is different at every different point of the game. And with six characters with overlapping stories that progress at different rates, you have to piece together the chronologies of all of their stories yourself. And there are stories that connect characters from different Adventure Fields and everything. Like the girl outside the station whose dad works in the Mystic Ruins.

My favorite, though, is that if you go to Station Square during Super Sonic's story, it will be almost deserted. This actually feels spooky since they did such a good job making it feel lively for the rest of the game. And the only people who are left explain that everyone evacuated after Eggman's missile attack in Tails' story, and that they're about to leave too, but had to be the last ones because they have important jobs (like the Newsstand Lady). This then provides justification for Tails saying "Everything turned out okay!" at the end of the game, despite Chaos destroying Station Square. The game actually did explain that the city was abandoned.

Of course, you'd never know, because all you do in Super Sonic's story is walk like 20 feet forward in the Mystic Ruins and trigger a bunch of cutscenes that lead to the final boss. But if for some reason you go in the wrong direction, there's actually a lot of stuff to see.

>>16891193

>(like with sa2).

*(unlike with sa2).

fuk, sa2 was focused and good story, 100%. don't hurt me mommy

>>16891193

>Just give him Goku's personality.

Side note: if you believe that, then good on you.

You can do that in your fan-fic.

It's just that personally i don't think that's the way to go.

Especially when we have about 4 different personalities for sonic at this point in the game's canon, him just being a static character doesn't seem to fit for me.

Unlike goku, were people would mind the change personalities (like they did in super, were they just made just an idiot again and take away his personal maturity that was grown from what i've heard from fans, but that's whole other story).

If they change sonic personality for another time, then people most likely would not mind, and it would be even better if it's done naturally, maybe a part of the story and be well executed.

>Archiefags try to justify the Freedom Fighters overshadowing game characters

Well that sucks, fuk Archie then

>>16891241

>>16891193

>>16891117

http://archive.vn/a8Wdu

According to his other tweets, yes. Not hard to find similarly pozzed ones from Flynn.

They both were at Sonic Boom 2014 in NYC, the same one I went to, but there were packed lines for them and I wasn't that big onto the comics. Got autographs from the other voice actors, Jun Senoue, and took a photo with Iizuka himself, so that was a nice.night, nonetheless.

>>16891193

>>16891241

>>16891249

They should have learned from Toriyama's mistakes and maintained the games' tone to feel more akin to the original Dragon Ball than DBZ and onwards which, despite having cool moments gets really stupid and unsatisfying with asspulls, power level saiyan/transformation wank, and characters acting like morons that end up becoming little more relevant than cheerleaders for the MC. The latter being especially grating in recent Sonic games. I and a bunch of others are conflicted over them practically retconning the Super Emeralds because while it added to the lore, they consciously do not bring that back to avoid similar power shenanigans.

>>16891241

> but Sonic should never outright copy DBZ

Again, that's what i'm saying. It's just that sonic barely was in the first place.

I thought you wanted to sonic be like DBZ, i said oh hell no to that

>Super forms don't get old, when compared to Super Saiyan forms,

>since Super Forms aren't something the cast can Always use whenever they want.

That, and also some of the Super Saiyan forms never had emotional weight and just power up for the sake of it.

Also on a other note:Think you might wanna watch the Act Man's "Why Is Dragon Ball BETTER Than Dragon Ball Z?" it does good job talking about the problem of Super Saiyans somewhat (but mostly dbz in general)

>>16891254

>Toriyama's mistakes and maintained the games' tone to feel more akin to the original Dragon Ball than DBZ

I still think that sonic isn't DB in general, but i agree with that, especially for anyone who want to right something similar to DB.

>gets really stupid and unsatisfying with asspulls, power level saiyan/transformation wank, and characters acting like morons that end up becoming little more relevant than cheerleaders for the MC.

>The latter being especially grating in recent Sonic games

Mi nigga!

>>16891287

>want to right

*wants to write

fuk.

>>16891281

As a modern thing I'd be inclined to agree with you, but I'm pretty sure Super sonic couldn't fly (outside of space) but hyper could?

>>16891287

>to sonic be

*sonic to be like DBZ

>it does good job

*it does a good job

>the problem

*the problems

fuk this i'm going to a giant shit

>>16891290

Hyper Sonic had an air-dash that eliminated all on screen enemies, otherwise his flight capabilities were the same as the Super form.

>>16891287

Totally.

Sonic became a smash hit in the west from japanese creators with western output. He's a unique blend of both backgrounds which I think is a lot of the appeal. Sonic 2-3K had a huge Star Wars Death Star reference as a plot device to balance things out in that regard-even Bill Clinton and MJ were stated to be influences for his shoes and personality right down to the artist himself being called on for 3.

>>16891117

>Just give him Goku's personality.

A barbarian who loses all sense of emotion as he gets older and increasingly focuses more and more on nothing more than "the next fight" (Even after the guy dies)? Even Vegeta got tired of that shit.

>>16891287

>Think you might wanna watch the Act Man's "Why Is Dragon Ball BETTER Than Dragon Ball Z?" it does good job talking about the problem of Super Saiyans somewhat (but mostly dbz in general)

Is it because the first half of the series has to deal with there being an actual goal in mind for the characters to achieve, meanwhile the latter half deals with all the characters reacting to events around them and battles being drawn out far too long to where they become boring?

>>16882775

Nice mix. I didn't expect that.

>>16884251

I never thought I would feel sorry for Coldsteel, but damn. Even he doesn't deserve that Hell.

>>16882775

BANE*

>>16891193

>>16891241

>>16891249

Look, I don't mean literally make Sonic have the exact same personality as Goku, but it's certainly not far, and his function in the story is very similar. They're both very pure. Not like waifu pure, but rather that they are so single minded they don't even realize it. It never occurs to them to not do what they do. It just comes naturally to them. And in Sonic's case in particular (though I'd say it applies to Goku as well), it's because he represents a concept. Sonic is basically a force of nature. Chaos, freedom, life. Other characters struggle with character relationships, but Sonic doesn't. He just comes into their lives and affects them. He's too cool to struggle with something like that. He just does what he does and people can deal with it. Not that he even needs to think about it that much. Because that would mean he's putting in a degree of effort, and that's not cool. That's not free. Sonic doesn't even usually put in a lot of effort toward moving the plot. Plot happens and Sonic moves through it and does what he does. Not because he needs to convince someone else of something, or convince himself of something, or fulfill some responsibility, but just because it's what he does. What he feels like doing. He barely has motivations beyond "I don't like what Eggman is doing so I'm gonna stop him."

The same way Goku is almost singularly focused on self-improvement, Sonic is almost singularly focused on just doing whatever the hell he feels like. That's my point. Everyone else is just lucky that what Sonic feels like doing usually happens to be good. As he puts it, "It doesn't matter who is wrong or who is right."

>>16891254

The Super Emeralds aren't that big a deal in the story anyway. And one could argue that they aren't even actually seen in the canon story of S3&K, since the post-credits scene seen if you get all the Chaos Emeralds but not all the Super Emeralds as Sonic & Tails leads into Knuckles' story. More could be done with it, but I never felt it was calling out for more. The Master Emerald can power down the Chaos Emeralds, it can also power them up. Sure. Would be interesting to explore, but at least I was never really left hanging with it.

>>16891343

>A barbarian who loses all sense of emotion as he gets older and increasingly focuses more and more on nothing more than "the next fight" (Even after the guy dies)? Even Vegeta got tired of that shit.

First of all, when you put it that way, it's awesome, and Super would have been better if they actually leaned into that direction and went all out. It's already retarded so go full retard and make Goku become a bored god that Vegeta needs to eventually put out of his misery.

Secondly, yes. That's sort of what I'm saying for Sonic. He barely has emotion. So much so that it's notable in Unleashed, since that's one of the only games where he seems to actually show any emotion. He just wants to go fast. Or I'd go a step further and say he just wants to be a free spirit. Not 100%, he does have some morality, the same way Goku does, but he's lighthearted about it unless shit gets really, really real. He can respectfully banter with Shadow even when they're about to race to destroy/save the world. He can be optimistic enough to think he can still save Chaos even though Chaos is trying to destroy the world for a second time. Sonic should almost never have anything approaching angst. Not even anything remotely close. He's a lighthearted free spirit.

>>16893679

>inb4 its some shitcan artist like Techworks

>>16891862

>And in Sonic's case in particular (though I'd say it applies to Goku as well), it's because he represents a concept.

By the way, that's portrayed far better in the japanese games than the localized ones.

>>16894065

Speaking of sanic adventure, I've been playing the steam DX version and the controls are somehow even worse than the DC version. I think it was the same on PS3 as well.

Unless I'm just remembering the original game through rose tinted glasses.

>>16877426

>Then the other activated Shadow androids are rarely, if ever brought up or used ever again until the IDW comics which are in a parallel continuity of sorts.

They are mentioned loads in Heroes

>>16894139

I think the "Dreamcastify" blog confirmed that the Dreamcast controller had different deadzones making it feel different from other subsequent ports

>>16877354

What was the announcement?

>>16894231

I think he means that the Androids should have been mentioned after Shadow the Hedgehog. But only one game after Shadow the Hedgehog actually has a story, so it's not like there were many opportunities. But I don't think it's a big deal anyway. They're effectively just more realistic-looking Metal Sonics.

>>16894454

>Maybe it's a cultural difference between the UK and US, maybe I just can't appreciate romantic drama or maybe it's that I read STC as a kid and Archie as an older teen, but Archie's comics never clicked with me at all.

Not at all. I was the same, it's just super fucking jarring, having only really watched Adventures of Sonic as a kid then buying the comic, and it's shit like Sonic getting trapped in space lamenting on how everyone thinks he's dead, or him getting cucked.

>>16890148

It's entirely in-character for Shadow to be a cocky asshole in general, though. When he was done monologuing about MUH RIA he was perfectly capable of having fun. He only became completely melodramatic during 06.

>>16894483

>>16894486

I remember grabbing an issue of archie sonic at a comic store on a whim without knowing anything about it and it was the fucking crying sonic comic.

>>16894454

Honestly i never really had an issue with the Metalix thing. Fantasy shit with Tails is what i remember being insanely out of place though.

I had a similar experience in childhood comic, but even looking at it objectively; fleetway sonic is the type of comic that could survive on its own merits.

While archie feels like it just got lucky in getting a load of autists latched on.which obviously would have never happened if it wasn't sonic.

And fleetway actually feels like its attached to the game part of sonic.

But Archie is just a mess of autism that never felt like what sonic should be, nor did it feel attached to its source in anything but the most basic of ways.

I suppose that feeling of "this isn't sonic" is what hurts fleetway these days ironically, since fleetway sonic is a very different sonic to what became the standard.

>>16894558

>smirk

I couldn't see Shadow's mouth in any part of the webm you posted. If anything he seems more annoyed, looking at the ground like that.

>>16894313

You think they'd have fixed that with it being a directors cut and all.

>>16894454

Shit, I remember this. I never understood why they turned super sonic into a psycho, maybe they were going for a Jekyll/Hyde type vibe.

>>16894761

>I never understood why they turned super sonic into a psycho

Sonic 2 Super sonic was pretty much a free pick of what he even was meant to be.

He was turned into a berserk mode because a straight power up isn't exactly particularly interesting, its fine for a game but not for a comic.

He isn't exactly very easy to control and came from something called "chaos emeralds", not exactly a hard stretch for genesis sonic.

Later on he was distorted from a straight berserk mode because loose idea probably. Probably was kept because a talkative villain works better for comics generally, i think it came from his second appearance? Which was clearly very different from any other appearance. Which was clearly trying to make him semi controllable instead of uncontrollable.

He was always a last resort mode though pretty sure, not much of a Jekyll/Hyde thing.

>>16894761

>>16894830

Aren't the Chaos Emeralds evil in the Fleetway comics or something?

>>16894870

No the chaos emeralds are definitely not evil. They aren't entities, they're just "man" made energy containers.

They just react to stimuli and can be used to do stuff like you'd expect.

They can be negative energy magnets or their radiation can turn people into monsters, but they don't have any shown sentience.

>>16894830

Wasn't that comic the one that had sonic and robotnik as mates prior to an accident that created robotnik?

And they give sonic an origin story where he pretty much gets his powers from one of robotniks experiments?

>>16894885

>Wasn't that comic the one that had sonic and robotnik as mates prior to an accident that created robotnik?

>And they give sonic an origin story where he pretty much gets his powers from one of robotniks experiments?

Wasn't that shit in the Archie comics too? I vaguely remember something about that, and it had the origin for his shoes, for some reason.

>>16894885

Yes the "western bible origin" was used for fleetway, however i feel i must emphasize that stay sonic didn't conflict with games until pretty late.

Literally just "Robotnik and sonic both got mutated by the emeralds" at the end of the day.

Also that Robotnik is half literal rotten egg. Its a pretty cut down version of the Bible story though since Sonic the comic didn't exactly have a huge page count.

Not that Bible adaptions were ever super consistent, though Stay Sonic was probably the definitive version from what i remember?ironically other ones have details i remember just fusing with that.

>>16894894

Archie definitely did not, the Sonic Bible was totally ignored in their case.

I think their Robotnik was just always evil. He's the SatAM version basically. At least the one that the run started with.

>>16894885

In the U.S. there was a separate promo comic where that was the story. However, Sonic already ran fast and only turned blue after meeting Robotnik. Also, the chaos emeralds where already established to be seven in number (With Robotnik only having the six), and that Robotnik's original goal was to contain "all the world's evil" in the emeralds and to then destroy them; however, the machine exploded and transferred all the contained evil into Robotnik, which lead to the events of the first game.

>>16894894

In the Archie comics, Robotnik has a completely different origin, as well as Sonic. Robotnik originally worked with the surviving humans, but planned to betray them. After escaping, he sought refuge in Knothole and served as an advisor to the king. Eventually, with his help, they overthrew the humans attacking, and Robotnik then staged a coup and overthrew the leadership of Knothole. With Sonic, all his origin is that Sonic and his family were originally "loners" doing their own thing, and not really caring about everything that was going on with the kingdom. However, Robotnik eventually captured and roboticized Sonic's parents and Uncle, which then caused Sonic to want to take the fight directly to Robotnik until he was swayed by Sally to join the Freedom Fighters instead.

>>16891862

>Look, I don't mean literally make Sonic have the exact same personality as Goku

Good for you, i still wish you understood i wasn't talking about sonic the first time around, so you wouldn't have to type long about something that was unrelated, out of nowhere.