394049 No.16857682[Last 50 Posts]
I hate morality meters in games due to how black and white they tend to be. The biggest sinner in this was Mass effect or Bioware as you couldn't be neutral and I don't mean retarded neutral but being middle ground in a situation, because too often you are forced to be cartoonishly evil or good goy who let's himself be cucked due to being too nice. Oddly enough in DA: Origins you actually could be morally flexible, what are some games that do morality right and others that fuck it up like Bioware?
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d2f218 No.16857699
Disaster Report series has fun moral options, as did Pachipara 13/14 by the same devs.
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5c0d45 No.16857701
>>16857682
>what are some games that do morality right
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394049 No.16857702
>>16857701
Shadow the hedgehog having one of the best morality systems still fucking stuns me.
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190af2 No.16857705
>>16857702
>Shadow the hedgehog
>one of the best morality systems
please explain.
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c3d97a No.16857709
Fallout 1, 2 and NV
Because your Morality bar doesn't mean jack shit in the vast majority of the game, it's all about reputation.
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9007c5 No.16857711
>>16857701
>>16857702
You better fucking explain yourselves
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d2f218 No.16857713
>>16857699
Oh I should note that the pachipara duo had a unique moral slider. You had two scales, introvert/outgoing (I'd have to double check what that was exactly) and asshole/kind-hearted. Game had some great options to be a jerk that really tempt you into picking them just for the hell of it.
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394049 No.16857718
>>16857705
There are many different routes/stages/bosses depending on moral choices and endings.
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39622a No.16857726
>>16857682
>I hate morality meters in games due to how black and white they tend to be.
That's the entire point of morality systems though, that there's objective good and objective bad. Of course Bioware is shit at implementing them, but consider the Ultima series if you would. It has a strict morality system but it makes sense within the gameworld and has an impact on things.
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5c0d45 No.16857731
>>16857705
>>16857711
The game is designed with all the stages have 2 or 3 "objectives" broken down between the games factions. Depending on which objective you accomplish, the game then pushes you along to the following level "affiliated" with that faction and locks the player out of the different levels in the game. As shown in the pictures, the "good" objective in Westopolis leads to Lethal Highway, the "neutral" objective leads the Glyphic Canyon, and the "evil" objective leads to Digital Circuit. The rest of the story mode unfolds like this, leading to each "moral decision" giving a widely different story for the player (With there literally being 326 different "combinations"), but still showing how "widely different" decisions can lead to the same conclusion of similar choices can still make a huge difference.
The only problem with this, though, is that Sega demanded that the studio tone down the game to pass the newly created E10 rating in the West (Because originally they were going to be pushing the T rating to the max), so Sonic Team had to completely rewrite entire potions of the game to where you still can get a "complete" story, but it's all laid out in a jumbled mess, and you have to play through the game multiple times to actually get a full picture.
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394049 No.16857744
>>16857726
That's fine for certain games but for stuff like Mass effect or games similar to it the system doesn't work.
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97ae9d No.16857746
>>16857705
>>16857711
>>16857731
I was going to explain it as well, if someone else didn't.
But yeah to simplify things a bit the actual System in place of how your actions effect your playthough is on a mechanical level one of the best out there, at most you could say the problem with it is that it leads to only 10 endings, but that is still much more then other games with moral systems that have 2 endings.
The fact each level is meant to have 2-3 objectives leads to fun things like webm related were I did the Hero objective, but purposefully had the main villain watch as a killed all his soldiers.
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394049 No.16857759
>>16857731
>>16857746
This game did so much wrong but it got something most games struggle to do.
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39622a No.16857764
>>16857744
It could work, but as I said, Bioware are terrible at implementing them, mostly because the people who worked there in the past and work there now are basically infantile adults who don't know shit about morality. You could easily set up a morality system that man uses in the future and contrast that with alien morality, which would be different. Mass Effect doesn't do that, it sets up the judeo-liberal morality system where you can either be a cuckold doormat or what fat dweebs conceptualize right-wing death squads to be like. That's the issue you are having with it, not that it's "black and white" or whatever, it's that the system doesn't fit into the game or stems from the setting, but rather is the morality of the Canadian faggots that worked on the game.
It's dumb to request more of a grey-zone, because within moral systems that's not really a thing. It doesn't work that way.
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ce0f7c No.16857770
>>16857746
Why is it I never see anyone talking about the Expert Mode you unlock when you finish all missions with an A rank?
Did nobody bother doing that?
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394049 No.16857773
>>16857764
> because within moral systems that's not really a thing. It doesn't work that way.
You can have grey in morality systems what are you talking about?
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5c0d45 No.16857777
>>16857682
>others that fuck it up like Bioware
Here's one where the morality system means jack shit.
<Day job results in family members getting killed
<Swear revenge and a change in lifestyle
<Keep doing the same shit that caused them to get killed
<But now you have a cause to do it
<Become a "person of justice" to justify your actions
<Pick up some "friends" along the way
<Make an enemy out of most of them
<End up causing your real friends to get killed or driven away
<End up destroying your own family's life, causing them to skip town just to be safe
<Kill dozens of innocents and non-participating parties as well
<Blame it all on the police, the politicians, the gangs, the millionaires, and the mob
<Destabilize an entire city's infrastructure seeking vengeance
<Convince you're self your the "good guy", the "victim", and/or "justified" in the end when the original person you were after was locked in your basement the entire time
AND, THE CHERRY ON TOP OF IT ALL IS THAT THE GAME GIVES YOU THE DECISION OF KILLING THE BASTARD OR LETTING HIM GO AFTER THE CREDITS FINISH ROLLING (REGARDLESS OF YOUR MORAL CHOICES), AS IF THAT'S SUPPOSE TO CHANGE ANYTHING.
>>16857770
It's basically just harder versions of the levels, with no story relevance.
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cef797 No.16857779
Something that I noticed that's really subtle is that World at War had a morality system that only effected what Chernov wrote about you in his journal. It could be:
>war is brutal and brutal men are drawn to war
>do what is necessary to win, but not forgetting what you are fighting for
>understands that brutality isn't always what war requires, that mercy can be afforded wherever possible
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394049 No.16857781
>>16857777
Watchnogs is fucking retarded.
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97ae9d No.16857782
>>16857702
>>16857759
>Shadow the hedgehog having one of the best morality systems still fucking stuns me.
It actually makes allot of sense when you look at the previous Sonic games. Sonic from the very beginning was a series built on the idea of replayability. Sonic CD introduced having more then 1 objective in a level to change the outcome of another level, Adventure 1 introduced alt play styles and objectives in 3D with in the same levels, Adventure 2 introduced a much more story driven Good vs Evil choice for the play to pick at the start. Heroes had 14 levels that had 4 versions each split between the 4 teams, with Team Chaotix focusing on actual objectives. There was also allot of bonus mission that the player could do though the level select to get 100% and that was there since Adventure 1, Adventure 2 even had 5 sets of extra missions for the player per level.
The Shadow game simply takes all the extra content there was simply a bonus before in the previous games, and make it the main focus by using the Morality system to encourage the player into playing the game at least 10 times, to see each ending.
>>16857770
Oh I'v done that before and I think it's great, it's just while Expert Mode works as a really cool epilogue to the games events, it still a linear sequence of harder versions of all the games levels, it has no moral choices. it's one final gauntlet for a player who has mastered the game, Sonic Heroes had the exact same thing with Super Hard mode.
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d0a1d5 No.16857795
>>16857731
>you have to play through the game multiple times to actually get a full picture.
Not really, though. You have to play through the first level ten times, but it has three objectives, so you're really doing each objective three or four times. That still doesn't sound great, but this game, like Sonic Adventure 2/Heroes/'06 has a points/ranking system that encourages you to do each mission more than three times anyway.
As someone else mentioned, there's an Expert Mode you unlock for getting all A Ranks that puts all the levels in a single playthrough, with only one objective, made to be particularly hard. It's pretty cool. So I'd say it's totally worth playing the first level, and all the others, more than three times, in order to master them and unlock Expert Mode. Of course, I think very few people ever bothered to do this.
Now, the objective that is crazy to consider doing is trying to complete all 326 "paths" through the game. Each time you beat one, it's actually catalogued and you can watch all the cutscenes in that order whenever you want by picking that path in a list. Each path has its own story name and everything. I'm pretty sure you don't get anything for this. But I"m not 100% sure, because I can't even imagine someone bothering to do it.
>>16857782
>Sonic Heroes had the exact same thing with Super Hard mode.
I'd say Shadow's Expert Mode is different, since it's the only way to play every level in a single playthrough. Heroes' Super Hard Mode is basically just a fourth level of difficulty for the same levels that you already played in three other difficulty settings. (I'll count Chaotix as a different thing since they actually have different objectives, but Rose/Sonic/Dark/Expert are literally just difficulty settings.)
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6ab8a0 No.16857798
Sauce on that OP pic
>>16857682
On my last run on Kotor 2 I maintained a grey character throughout, no prestige malarkey and kind of had to be schizophrenic, I managed sparing two of the Jedi masters while generally being an asshole but supporting the Queen on Onderon just wasn't happening so I briefly tilted into red for a second then managed to get back to neutral again before the end. Didn't really add anything to the experience beyond not having a meaty boner for either side for once.
>>16857701
AP was something special in that regard, shame it wasn't a top tier game to play..
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97ae9d No.16857806
>>16857795
I'm working on it slowly…
I'm sure there is nothing for it beyond filling up the whole library section, Some people have done it before you can find a youtube channel with every path as a separate video, but it's still neat that every path in the game is individually named.
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394049 No.16857821
>>16857806
Holy shit Anon.
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6fc507 No.16857847
It's already been mentioned, but Alpha Protocol has to be the best system I've personally seen. There is no scale, but simply actions and consequences. Most games just have, "oh you did a favor for the bandits now the capital likes you a little less >:(." In Alpha you decided how to react to situations and it would simply play out later on.
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ec78d5 No.16857853
Dragon Age 2 has the best morality system, mirrored after Alpha Protocol. You can choose between being a hero, a sarcastic dickhead, or an angry dickhead.
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394049 No.16857857
>>16857853
>Dragon Age 2 has the best morality system
It's fucking rubbish especially when origins had a much better system.
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61d9b1 No.16857858
>>16857806
>requiem for a fallen angel
>bullets from tears
>journey to nihility
Amazing.
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97ae9d No.16857869
>>16857858
Sonic team back then had zero self awareness and it was a much better time. after 06 things started just becoming more boring.
I really do believe that the Shadow game is the edgiest piece of media of all time, because it's unironic in everything it does, sure there is stuff like Postal or Hatred, but those games were Edgy on purpose to stir up media attention, The Shadow game was just Sonic team thinking, "This is what our fans want so lets give it to them" due to kids asking for them to give Sonic a gun in fan mail.
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394049 No.16857951
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d0a1d5 No.16858099
>>16857869
Sonic Team keeps making Sonic games trying to give fans "what they want," even though it's clearly not what Sonic Team wanted to do. Shadow the Hedgehog was made in response to Shadow winning a poll for which character fans wanted to have a spinoff game, and fans repeatedly asking for Sonic to have a gun. So they made the edgiest game they could. But then the actual story of the game is about Shadow learning not to be edgy anymore. And in the sequel, ('06,) he actually isn't edgy anymore. He actually did learn his lesson. And of course, due to the morality system, only half the endings are actually edgy. Sure, there are a few endings where you literally shoot Sonic the Hedgehog in the face, but half the endings are also just you being a regular hero.
Sonic '06 was then made in response to people saying "Sonic never had a story! Stop giving him a story! Stop having him fight monsters!" So they made it so, in Sonic's story, Eggman is the only bad guy, and the plot literally revolves around him repeatedly kidnapping a princess, like Mario. It's like Sonic Team did it out of spite. And then all the traditional Sonic autism was saved for Shadow and Silver's stories. Obviously this didn't work. Still too much story, even if Sonic's was cliche on purpose. And the people complaining didn't want Shadow at all. And they especially didn't want a new guy like Silver. (And uh… Sega rushed the game out so fast that they didn't even have time to dummy out unfinished features, like a goddamn energy bar that's always on Sonic's screen but doesn't do anything, making the powers it was supposed to be used for infinite, breaking the game entirely).
The response was Unleashed. Fine! Much less story! No references to previous games! Barely any other characters, not even Knuckles! No other playable characters, not even Tails! But of course Sonic Team was too autistic to give up their traditional style entirely. So they still tried to experiment with two gameplay styles, but tried to justify it by saying that both were technically Sonic… only one of them was Sonic turning into a werewolf. Obviously this backfired. And nobody cared about the story, which is what the "fans" were asking for. But even there, despite being cartoony and less plot heavy, it was still about a primordial god in the end. Well, even though nobody really got mad about it, they still hated Unleashed because of the Werehog, so that would basically be the last time they ever actually put any sincere effort into a Sonic story. Also, the non-werewolf gameplay basically got rid of the majority of actual platforming in exchange for a "Go Fast" button, because as these "fans" know, Sonic is all about "GOTTA GO FAST."
So then we get Colors. "Fine! You want 2D?! Here's 2D! Fuck you!" It doesn't play at all like the Genesis games that these people were saying they wanted, but they didn't care and lapped it up.
Generations continued the trend. "You want old games! Here's Classic Sonic! Now 3/4 of the game is 2D, and the other 1/4 is just holding the Go Fast button!" Everyone loved it. Also it's the 20th anniversary game and involves time travel to iconic levels from the series, but because of all the bitching they got before, they waste the opportunity for what could have been a cool story.
Lost World was Sonic Team wanting to try actually being 3D again, and tried to make it up to the people bitching at them forever by making it look like Sonic 1 designs even though nothing else about it is similar at all. Didn't work.
So they figured people must be bored of that nostalgia trend, and now they're hearing people bitching for Adventure nostalgia. But all the people who worked on those games, or evidently even liked them, aren't working there anymore. But they hear other people making fun of them, saying they're Deviantart cringe, so they go on Deviantart and check out the fan art made by 14 year olds 15 years previous, and then copy that instead of copying the actual games. "This is what you wanted, right? You fucking idiots." At least they were smart enough to go back to Generations gameplay. But people weren't happy anyway. So who knows what they'll do next? Whatever it is, I'm sure it will be well intentioned retardation again.
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33d5c2 No.16858122
I always thought the morality meter was pretty good in The Suffering because it affected the ending. Kill prisoners to get the bad ending, save prisoners to get the good ending, or let prisoners do whatever they want and get killed themselves to get a neutral ending. I think it also affected your powers with how far good and bad you got as well. Not complex but it worked for what it was. Too bad that saved ending you got didn't really change the beginning part much for the sequel which they advertised. Didn't help that the sequel game wasn't that good either with 2 weapon locking.
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97ae9d No.16858133
>>16858099
Sonic team's main problems are a result in not having a real Producer anymore. Yuji Naka must have been the one making sure games were actually in finished states, as soon as he left Sega, then the bright idea of splitting Sonic 06's dev team down the middle so one can work on an entirely separate Wii game. happened. when Sonic was the first game in the HD era which would mean it probably needed all hands on deck, and the most attention, but they rushed it out for Sonic's anniversary too.
More recently an even worse thing happened with Sonic Forces, since there is no excuse for what fucking happened, they had 4 years god damn years to make Forces, but they made a new engine and sat on they're asses for 3 years, and then made the game in only 1 years. They fucking choose to rush the game out in only 1 year. Allot more people probably would have been more interested in Forces if it wasn't under 3 hours long, and didn't borderline falsely advertise having a huge rogues galley of villains.
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d0a1d5 No.16858142
>>16858133
I know everyone hates Forces around here, but I like that it at least had more content than Generations. I'm not a big fan of Modern Sonic to begin with, but I figure as far as Modern Sonic goes, Forces plays like Generations but more of it. Unleashed is my favorite Modern Sonic game.
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ec6c4c No.16858154
>>16857682
Complaining about ME specifically just led to Bioware fagging up their games (even more than usual) afterwards, when you couldn't even do half of the funny shit you could in ME2.
You might mean well and just want a more developed system, but in actual practice, developers are always going to take the path of least resistance and just simply remove options.. rather than adding more complexity.
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97ae9d No.16858159
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16858142
Forces as a game isn't awful, the problem is it feel like it's missing half of what it needs,content and story wise. and the 3D gameplay is very on rails your not even aloud to drift anymore the game does it for you automatically, Classic Sonic's physics are also awful, that was very damning when Sonic Mania was the previous release.
The Sonic youtube channel put up this video recently, and it's just a look at everything in the series, obviously due to the movie, so who knows what the Next Sonic game is going to be like, but Sega has to know a ton more people going to become new fans of Sonic. This next game should be something impressive and not something just thrown together again, since Sonic has a big opportunity right now.
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ece5bd No.16858175
>>16858159
their next game will probably be based on the movie and suck like most games based on movies do
except i heard they have a sonic game coming for this or next year, so itll probably be the game after that, and not long after that
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d0a1d5 No.16858187
>>16858175
Nobody releases a movie-based game that long after a movie. If anything, movie-games have gone out of style, probably starting around the time when Arkham Asylum wasn't a direct tie-in to The Dark Knight, but still sold like gangbusters. They could have released the latest Soyder-Man game as a tie in with the MCU movie, but they didn't.
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97ae9d No.16858192
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16858175
As >>16858187 stated
straight up movie games aren't a thing anymore, that is to be made from movie goers is all in mobile games now, the Movie Sonic and the Baby Movie Sonic, have already been added to 2 of the mobile Sonic games, there isn't a need for rushed out tie in games anymore, when making Mobile games that milk peoples cash is so much less effort.
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b34b4d No.16858299
>>16858175
>suck like most games based on movies do
People keep saying this, but I keep finding games that are as good or better than the film they are based on.
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394049 No.16858303
>>16858299
King kong 2005 comes to mind.
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7f9755 No.16858338
>>16857682
The dumbest part of the mass effect alignment system is how it utterly discards any sort of consistency when it comes to cerberus
>playan ME2
>play shep who tells the airmchair generals to fuck off at every turn
>get tons of renegade points
>EXCEPT when A) cerberus wants legion and B) when cerberus wants to irradiate the collectors instead of blowing them up as planned, both cases in which telling armchair general Tim to fuck off gets you boy scout points
For fuck's sake bioware did you not think that maybe shep would want to tell Tim to fuck off because he doesn't take shit from anyone, rather than because "abloo bloo bloo Tim's racist"
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a87e8a No.16858347
>>16858303
>>16858299
Wasn't Cummy in Mummy muck better than the movie too?
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b34b4d No.16858353
>>16858303
You have King Kong, LotR, Terminator, 007, The Mummy, Wanted, Star Wars, Finding Nemo, innumerable tie-ins for Marvel and DC films, Jaws, Die Hard, etc. It's like saying "All comic book games are terrible" when (Exluding Marvel/DC) you have Spawn, The Darkness, Turok, Shadow Man, Heavy Metal, XIII, and all those games based in manga like Dragon Ball, Fist of the North Star and Astro Boy.
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d0a1d5 No.16858355
>>16858299
Yeah, but you fail to understand just how many movie games got pumped out back in the day. The vast majority were shit. Even King Kong, posted in response to you, is really one of the last gasps of movie games. By the end of that generation, they were basically gone.
It is fun to find good games based on movies though. They exist. But on the other hand you have shit like ET. They made games out of movies that you never would have expected. Obscure shit like Bebe's Kids, or games based on movies that really don't lend themselves to games, that sound like parodies when you bring up that there's actually a game based on them, like fucking Lawnmower Man.
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289ead No.16858364
>>16858299
Meet the Robinsons is a hidden gem imho, and the second Incredibles game spans the gap between the two movies Please don't judge me Violet is my Lolita. also sorry for the thumbnails.
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43e9bc No.16858367
>>16857731
>>16857718
Woah woah woah, there's like 3 different types of endings and only the settings vary, and besides that therre's a true ending (that you're forced to get by getting every single ending) that makes them all irrelevant. Also apparently shadow was made by aliens.
The game is shit and no amount of retarded contrarian opinions fixes how bad it is.
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43064c No.16858369
>>16858355
ET and Lawnmower man were from back in the days of inexperienced game devs and publishers who had no idea what they were doing. That's in contrast to today's movie-games, now that we're in the days of experienced, matured game developers and publishers who have no idea what they are doing.
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97ae9d No.16858380
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d0a1d5 No.16858383
>>16858367
>Woah woah woah, there's like 3 different types of endings and only the settings vary
I wouldn't go that far. Some endings are semi-similar to each other, but it makes sense since not all the choices you're making are radically different. There are many degrees of choices so there are degrees of consequences. It's not like games with only two endings where you go full bad or full good.
>and besides that therre's a true ending (that you're forced to get by getting every single ending) that makes them all irrelevant.
It's the journey, not the destination. It's not as if the Sonic series was going to end, with a spinoff about Shadow, no less. There's gonna be some canon ending. You wouldn't say fighting game endings are stupid since they aren't all canon in the next game. Shadow's "Last Story" takes place after the timeframe of the ten other endings, and tries to make it vague enough so that it could fit after most of them. Though of course the endings where he shoots Sonic in the face aren't canon. What the fuck did you think was going to happen.
>The game is shit and no amount of retarded contrarian opinions fixes how bad it is.
The game has other problems with the actual gameplay. The story is fine. The gameplay is more important, so pick on that. Even then, how bad it is is vastly overstated. The controls and level design are pretty meh compared to Sonic Adventure 2, but it's not that bad.
>>16858369
I shouldn't have even picked on ET, since of course they were gonna make an ET game, and trying to make it like a spiritual sequel to Raiders of the Lost Ark, a classic, makes sense. They were just overambitious, especially with time/resources dedicated to the project. Not unlike Sega with so many of these Sonic games.
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394049 No.16858454
>>16858338
That and you can't be pragmatic.
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43064c No.16858517
>>16858338
That was just Bioware being unable to resist making Paragon into hand-wavey good and Renegade into hand-wavey bad. The same stupid shit happened in Jade Empire: Sometimes Closed Fist was really independent and self-reliant and advocated that for others, and sometimes it just stood in as the cartoon evil bad guy option. I don't know if it was inconsistent writers, or just them feeling like the system was too contrived, or if it was because there just wasn't enough opportunity to show off that particular contrast of human behavior in unique ways. Maybe it's just that eventually it becomes clunky and unworkable to try to boil all human behavior down into ANY single sliding scale. I mean, even when it wasn't white knights versus cackling villains, the Jade Empire (and most other Bioware games) morality thing usually boiled down to having one of two quest-givers to listen to, or one of two dialog options to pick at some point. That's the true problem with morality systems in games: it's just too tempting for the (rushed) devs to throw in a bunch of low-effort garbage options. If it's things like "grinding good monsters to get more evil" then you get this hero party that can slide all over the ethics map willy-nilly, and they do it to squeeze every possible bonus out of the world rather than it informing gameplay in any meaningful way. Think pools of alignment change from Wizardry. If it's based more on game play choices, then you have this limited option space to build up enough brownie/blondie points, meaning that you have to get all these contrived situations with clearly A or clearly B options (or, worse, incomprehensibly A or B options).
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2e5cd6 No.16858819
>>16858517
All the talk about how Shadow worked brings up a better system: ditch the scale, divide the game into chapters, and change story progression based on the significant plot choices in that chapter. It doesn't have to track every single time Shepard picked and flicked instead of using a tissue, just the large decisions. Then freeze it for that chapter and move on to the next. Basically do what Witcher 2 and 3 did and Wing Commander, decades ago, since a person's reputation is determined by their large momentous actions, not which store is their favorite in the Citadel.
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ec6c4c No.16858872
>>16858517
>That was just Bioware being unable to resist making Paragon into hand-wavey good and Renegade into hand-wavey bad.
It wasn't often hand-wavey bad in ME2 though. A lot of Renegade shit was just 80s inspired action movie asshole behavior. It's ME3 that made it even more black and white. You had a choice between being a square boy scout or Stalin.
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62343c No.16858944
>>16857682
>what are some games that do morality right
I always liked how Deus Ex did it. People would get pissed at you if you killed everything in sight. You might also get help for helping people but not always. Early in the game heavily encourages you to do non-lethal with a lot of characters telling you "These people are good even though the organization is corrupt" but it's really up to you. Aside from the early sections of the game giving you different dialogue, doing lethal or non-lethal doesn't change anything.
Ultimately though being a dick or not does not determine which ending you get. It mostly affects little things during the journey. Another thing I like.
>others that fuck it up like Bioware?
Dishonored. You play as a magical ninja assassin but if you kill people then the game starts throwing more plague victims zombies at you. It feels like the game never passes up an opportunity to nag at you for playing it how you want.
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62343c No.16858946
>>16858944
>People would get pissed at you if you killed everything in sight
Actually this is only half. Certain people in the game will commend you for it.
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a14f98 No.16858957
>>16857682
>muh shades of grade
13 year olds can't get enough of them
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661c8b No.16858963
The real problem with morality is applying it on a "global" scale. It should factor in witnesses as well each individual person's and communities morality. That is a lot of work though so they just do a flat good/bad scale. Even people within the same community and morals will differ on some issues, so maybe publicly a few NPCs will condemn you or praise you but in private do the opposite.
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661c8b No.16858967
>>16858944
Dishonored arguably does it right though. You're going after the people who conspired against you and the Empress, the guards you fight are just doing their jobs. Not to mention you're creating piles of corpses during a plague which flourishes with rats eating corpses.You're also creating fear and chaos in the land so the government and army have to enact martial law or tougher measures because of you. Lastly you're most likely using powers given to you from a shady demigod whose only real involvement in all of this is intrigue and fun. Lastly, the common trope with revenge stories; you usually go too far or can't think straight because you're so consumed with rage.
I get the complaints against Dishonored and its chaos endings but I think it fits.
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2b8b8b No.16858974
>>16858944
>You play as a magical ninja assassin but if you kill people then the game starts throwing more plague victims zombies at you. It feels like the game never passes up an opportunity to nag at you for playing it how you want.
>if you kill everything the game throws you more things to kill
Really, nigger?
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b280a0 No.16858993
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5a8b13 No.16859002
The problem with morality systems is that they're a slider where you can eventually outweigh henious evil with accumulating enough work hours spent at a homeless shelter, it could be solved by expanding a morality system to a stat screen like in vice city with each action having a separate counter and point value for both good and bad so the game addresses that you commit mass murder but also donate cat food to animal shelters giving you a different title and reputation.
The other problem is creating morality systems that don't match the setting of the game.
>>16858944
>You play as a magical ninja assassin
You play as a wrongfully acussed royal guard tasked with protecting the loli and banging the empress
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bd11a3 No.16859003
>>16858944
>You play as a magical ninja assassin but if you kill people then the game starts throwing more plague victims zombies at you.
Like, zombies begin to replace regular enemies? Because I can understand how it'd be annoying for the game to shift away stealth to just standing and shooting zombies. Otherwise that kind of makes sense, what with the plague going on, doesn't it?
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394049 No.16859024
>>16858957
Actually read the thread you subhuman African baboon.
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dd5c8c No.16859038
>>16858967
Yes, story-wise it makes sense, but we're talking about a game and morality as a game mechanic. And, as a game mechanic in Dishonored, the morality system sucks, as it essentially punishes you for having fun with the tools given to you.
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394049 No.16859043
>>16859038
>s it essentially punishes you for having fun with the tools given to you.
That's why I don't like dishonored because when a game stops you from having fun with the vast amount of power given then what is the point?
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68e69d No.16859092
>>16859038
>Punishes
>Implying Chaos ending isn't the best ending.
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2b8b8b No.16859250
>>16859038
It doesn't punish you in any way. Unless you're so immature that you feel bad you didn't get a happy ending.
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43064c No.16859279
>>16858944
I hate to be the anon to bring this particular game up, but another game that made the morality meter optional did it in exactly the opposite way. To get a different ending, you had to fight and kill everybody or fight and kill nobody. The way you did combat was the only thing that changed how the overall story progressed, as there weren't any dialog or other decisions outside of combat that changed the story. Most players going in blind would get a flavor of the neutral ending–the only ones that wouldn't, in fact, would be the ones who tried to grind enemies in every single area. You couldn't get the pacifist's ending as your first ending. So, really, if you didn't want the morality system to be relevant, it didn't have to be. I should say that you had to go out of your way to make the morality system matter. I always thought that was a strage design decision, especially given how everything else about Undertale played.
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4af52d No.16859289
>chaos frame
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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e5e576 No.16859352
>>16857779
And how to change it? i just kill everyone
>>16857857
What a way to miss the joke
>>16859279
I do really like how organic the system is, there's no choice a to be Jesus and choice b to be the devil, in fact most people won't even realize there's such a system until they look it up.
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3d4247 No.16859375
>still no game that rewards killing niggers and creating a white ethnostate
Game developers are truly retarded.
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00d087 No.16859396
>>16859043
>when a game stops you from having fun with the vast amount of power given then what is the point?
What the fuck are you talking about? Why does this bullshit non-argument keeps being retarded?
You keep using a truck load of lethal powers, weapons and tactics so the game spams extra targets at you so you can do it at least 3 times more than in a non-lethal run. The game adapts to you and gives you a lot more options to play exactly as you want.
Best example would be the final level where the chaos version literally has infinite re spawning guards instead of a small, limited number.
If you niggers consider punishment the cinematic you get (a fucking cutscene, right after the game has effectively ended) you're an idiot. You played the game like a merciless killer that's ruthless against anyone who so much as raises a hand your way and you did it all to protect Emily. What do you get to do after that? The exact same thing you've been doing so far. If that's a bad thing to you, why did you do it the whole game?
The only objective critic that can be made about Dishonored is how it fucks up the difficulty after Daud's men. Instead of even harder and more powerfull enemies, you go back to standard human guards, just a bit more of them, which is retarded when you're back at playing with the starting difficulty but now with a ridiculous amount of overpowered tools.
The DLC fixed this to some extent and apparently so did 2 (although that one has other issues).
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289ead No.16859408
>>16859289
Your first play through on any of the games that feature chaos frame, just ignore it and do what you want. Its one of those optimized gameplay things for repeat playthroughs.
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2b8b8b No.16859444
>>16859375
You're supposed to do it in real life, anon.
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cef797 No.16859461
>>16859352
Some events require choosing a "compassionate" method of murder. I think there is only 3 or 4 that change it. The ones that I know are the following:
The three soldiers bleeding out after Reznov busts you out of capture. Killing them is the brutal option and letting them die naturally is the compassionate option.
The three soldiers surrendering at the entrance of the Berlin subway system. Burning them alive is the brutal option and killing them via guns or knife is the compassionate.
There are a couple other that I believe but I can't remember them off the top of my head.
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3d4247 No.16859488
>>16859444
Trips of truth. I'll go kill some niggers right now!
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b95a82 No.16859624
>>16859444
>Impressive trips-
>>16859488
>Jesus Christ
Dubs for the dubgod
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b48709 No.16859676
>>16859396
I don't think anyone's upset about the difference in cinematic so much as being a goody two-shoes makes the gameplay dull as fuck.
When you fuck up stealth on a revengeance style playthrough your options are
>duel them one at a time
>throw explosives at them
>shoot them with bullets or tranq
>use ZA WARUDO to kill them in a cool way or escape
>use special jump ability to murder them from above
>summon rats to eat them alive
>run away but leave down a trap for them to die in
>run away in general
When you're acting the pacifist trying not to kill innocents getting caught results in you
>use tranq to nonlethal them
>use time power to run away or knock them out
>run away like normal
>reload save because you're a dumbass who cares about achievements
It's all pretty limited if you're being a pacifist when compared to a game like Deus Ex where even a flamethrower could help you take out people nonlethally.
The worst part about the morality is that the game is so damn lenient with you about getting high chaos. You can kill everyone that gets in your way and usually you'll still get low chaos unless you're really bad at stealth.
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00d087 No.16859696
>>16859676
The lack of pacifist options is an entirely separate issue, it's not the "game punishing you for having fun with your powers".
It's also a valid point, though. Besides choking and sleep darts, there's little to do besides not being caught so it lends itself better to stealth.
And again, the DLC kinda solves it by giving you extra tools that are basically non-lethal versions of their lethal counterparts. The razorwire mine gets a arc stun mine for instance.
I actually don't much like that however, it ends up making your choice of lethal and non-lethal combat mostly cosmetic. If your enemies could be revived from a non-lethal state, there'd be a much bigger difference but that ain't taken into account in most stealth games, unfortunnaly.
>The worst part about the morality is that the game is so damn lenient with you about getting high chaos.
I kinda understand and like the idea they went with, where Chaos isn't necessarily you being Bad or Evil but rather helping the plague to spread, however it'd be nice if they actually made that an entirely different axis and had 2 instead. One for Moral and another for Plague where you can take Moral actions that still contribute to the plague being spread or Evil actions that actually contain the Plague. Heck, they could go full pun and call that the Pragmatic\Plaguematic axis.
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b48709 No.16859707
>>16859696
>If your enemies could be revived from a non-lethal state, there'd be a much bigger difference but that ain't taken into account in most stealth games, unfortunnaly
I wish a stealth game would have the balls to atleast try having them wake up after a while. MGS did try it but the time was so long it rarely mattered and there were zero consequences even if someone stumbled on an unconscious body.
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486cdd No.16860563
>>16859707
>MGS did try it but the time was so long it rarely mattered and there were zero consequences even if someone stumbled on an unconscious body.
Did you not play MGS2 on Euro Extreme?
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68e69d No.16860569
To be completely honest my favourite moral choices in games are those which make me chose between complete extremes of good and evil but don't punish me for playing either one of them. It's just fun to sometimes play a stereotypical goody-two-shoes or a complete asshole in videogames.
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43064c No.16860582
>>16860569
Devs have an extremely hard time making players not feel like they're being punished, though. I get sorta sick of listening to gamers talking about "being punished" in games. Players will say things like "the best sword is for Chaos, and a slightly less good sword is for Law, so the devs are objectively punishing Law players" even if both swords are good enough to finish the damn game. On the other hand, if the two extremes are too similar, devs have to listen to players complain that the two sides aren't differentiated enough, which is a much more serious problem because who wants to play a game with moral choices that don't actually affect anything at all? In almost no cases are the devs actually out to punish players for playing a certain way. If there're imbalances between the routes, it's almost always lack of playtesting or, if deliberate, wanting to make the experiences of the different styles/choices different without just having Good stuff be patined blue and Bad stuff be the exact same but painted red. Something about gamers, though, just forces them to feel like it's a personal insult from the developers to them, though, and they start spouting off about punishment. Now, I'm not saying devs NEVER punish players for certain choices. If you get 100 xp right now for the Hand-wringing Evil route and 1000 xp tomorrow for the Shiny Teeth Good route, then, yes, maybe it's fair to say that in that instance you're being punished–unless you can just trivially make up the 900 xp by whacking kobolds in which case you don't have a leg to stand on. But, on the other hand, if you get 500 xp for the Evil route and 500 xp for the Good route, then what the hell is the difference between them besides flavor and maybe overall Nice/Ass points if the game has that system?
I don't really mean you personally, anon, when I say "you." I just get a little triggered by that word because I've seen a lot of it floating around lately. Maybe I need to grow up.
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68e69d No.16860588
>>16860582
I get what you mean and I agree but I'm mostly talking about situations where you have a good and evil choice, and the story tries to deliberately make you feel bad for picking the evil one. I'm not even saying it's a bad theme, what I'm saying is that I like games where they don't try to guilt trip you for being a dickhead.
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62343c No.16860598
>>16858967
They probably wrote the story around the mechanics TBH. I've always viewed it as really sloppy, and I don't let a mediocre story justify bad design.
>>16858974
Zombies are not fun in stealth. That was one of the main things that turns people off from Thief. The difference between Dishonored and Thief, though, is Thief has some of the most atmospheric levels in the game industry like "Down in the Bonehoard".
>>16859002
>You play as a wrongfully acussed royal guard tasked with protecting the loli and banging the empress
Who becomes a magical ninja assassin
>>16859003
>Like, zombies begin to replace regular enemies? Because I can understand how it'd be annoying for the game to shift away stealth to just standing and shooting zombies.
I forget how exactly it works. I never got far in the game. Was expecting something like Dark Messiah but it was a huge let down.
>Otherwise that kind of makes sense, what with the plague going on, doesn't it?
If they ruined the game because of a shit story that's just retarded. If they threw the mechanics in first and then wrote a story around it it's bad game design.
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43064c No.16860614
>>16860588
Oh, okay. I was thinking about the wrong context for punishment, then. Even before the days of modern software-devs-with-agendas, it was, yeah, pretty common for evil routes to guilt trip you. The problem is that in a game where you can choose to be good or evil, and you choose evil, there are probably good or neutral characters in the game that get hurt, because that's pretty often what evil means in a game like that. So if they didn't show the harm that you caused, it might feel like they were just not addressing obvious things that ought to be happening. I mean, there are ways of doing it that aren't guilt-tripping, probably, but I'm sure it's pretty often just lazily handled.
>>16860598
Do zombies have to be boring in stealth though? With Dishonored, I feel the problem was more that you didn't have enough tools to just nonlethal everyone, so you ended up with more zombies that were badly designed for sneaking around, couldn't be non-lethaled, AND contributed to Chaos when they were killed. You didn't have a bunch of nonlethal killing tools in the initial game because–and I think someone said this and I agree–the devs initially thought the two playstyles would be too similar and there'd be nothing pushing a player towards the lethal playstyle. Don't misunderstand me: I hate the way that the Chaos thing ended up working out, even if I don't know exactly why I didn't like it. I sorta disliked Dishonored not only because a lot of your "tools" couldn't be used without putting you on a certain play path (although DX did the exact same thing) but because it felt like there was this expectation that you would be exploring absolutely everywhere. The little side areas and quests didn't feel like bonuses for an explorer but more like things you were expected to do as part of correct play. I don't know why it felt that way to me, but I constantly had that feeling and it was not very pleasant when the stealth was annoying AND I felt like I needed to be poking my nose into absolutely everything. Come to think of it, I didn't feel that in original DX but DID feel it in DX:HR, so maybe it's me that changed.
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43064c No.16860615
>>16860614
I meant to bring up CDDA as a game with zombies where people say stealthing around them isn't shitty, but that's probably a matter of opinion and I think you pretty quickly shift to just beating on the zombies anyhow. Never could get into it myself.
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d4d075 No.16860621
>>16860582
Just giving different weapons or stats or exp is fucking stupid. Instead give different levels/missions to do. But the problem is that players will still have to play the game multiple times to see everything, and thus they won't really have "choice," because they'll still be thinking "okay last time I went full good, so this time I'll go full evil so I can see different stuff," or "okay I did full good and full evil, now I'll go good except for choices B and D, which I do evil." If you want to see everything you don't really have a choice. "Choices" in games are always stupid. Either they don't do enough or they do too much, and the replayable nature of a video game makes them moot. And if your game isn't made in a way that makes it worth replaying for the different options, then it's shit anyway.
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d2f218 No.16860622
>>16858187
>Nobody releases a movie-based game that long after a movie.
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43064c No.16860640
>>16860621
So, choices are bad and shouldn't be in games, but if they are then the game should be replayable enough that you want to replay it and do all the choices. What about things like different endings based on completion percentage or time? I feel that stuff like that first came around because devs wanted to reward players for getting better at the game, not as a millstone around your neck for forcing you to play badly or well in order to see all content. But I guess I do understand the compulsion to do everything the game has to offer, I just pretty rarely feel that way about things I play.
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d033d0 No.16860701
>>16858944
>Dishonored
They could have made it so that depending on your chaos rating, you get betrayed or not by the people who have been helping you. But instead all the routes force you into the same routine, where like other anons mention, the difference is how much of a challenge you want.
>>16860640
>What about things like different endings based on completion percentage or time?
Depends on the game design. The biggest issue is making the game still fun with these challenges, and not just making the player rack up time played to show off how long the game is. Like you mention, I don't really feel the need to 100% many games when they usually end up as joyless grinding, and forcing players to do this to get a true ending is not fun.
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43064c No.16860720
>>16860701
The Chaos thing did actually make some minor changes to the narrative during the game, but only during the last level. It would have been more effective as a story driver if it had split the game's story a little earlier. Also I think the Dishonored people were still in the "the game is adapting to the way the player plays" delusion rather than the mindset of "most players are going to feel compelled to grind out both paths." But that's just a feeling, and like you pointed out having any choice split the narrative still requires the player to play through it again–and the earlier the split is the more they have to replay (or they load a save and grind nice/shithead points to get the other path like in something like SMT Strange Journey).
And I guess I was thinking about Metroid with its "beat game in under 4 hours" thing. But that's a pretty early example. Achievements and trophies make up a lot of the bullshit quotient in today's games because they're forced by the platform providers, and "play the game for 100 hours" is a temptingly low-effort way to get another achievement on the board. Even those aside, I agree that I'm getting tired of jumping through hoops to get "true ends," but I figured that was just me getting too old and impatient to put up with what're feeling like needlessly complicated RPG branching plots.
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856019 No.16860721
>>16860621
>But the problem is that players will still have to play the game multiple times to see everything, and thus they won't really have "choice," because they'll still be thinking "okay last time I went full good, so this time I'll go full evil so I can see different stuff," or "okay I did full good and full evil, now I'll go good except for choices B and D, which I do evil."
How is that not a choice though? You have three options, the game is giving you a choice between A and B, and you can chose to go with A and ignore B, go with B and ignore A or do both in different order. The fact that you can do both of them doesn't mean it isn't an in-game choice, after all, going for the other option is usually optional itself, the only thing that is really done badly about choices in games is that they don't affect enough shit happening. That's what games with visual novel elements can often do well because they give you different routes to go through besides just meaningless choices that don't change shit.
If you want some real choices then play more sandboxy games without an established plot like Port Royale 2, CK2, Dwarf Fortress, Mount and Blade, Battle Brothers, Sekiro, Star Sector, Minecraft even because they create situations specific to the moment of gameplay you are in allowing you to make real choices that usually won't repeat in the same circumstances and feel their impacts. From who to side in the conflict, to how to play the game, to optional shit you can do.
Hell in Minecraft I got really excited at the prospect of creating a wall to surround my village from the raiders and monsters as well as renovating it. I don't have to do this shit and just leave the villagers to die and tend for themselves with their shitty iron golems, after all it is not necessary to do for beating the game, but I just feel like helping them. And Minecraft isn't really a game that gives you that many choices.
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377b8e No.16861099
>>16857777
Wait, you actually got to that point in that piece of shit?
I got it for free with my GPU I think, or I pirated it. Either way it was trash.
I played it until I realized it was a shittier version of nuGTA where people call the cops on you for pulling a gun out, so reelistic.
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394049 No.16861402
>>16861099
Number two is even worse.
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d0a1d5 No.16861772
>>16860640
>So, choices are bad and shouldn't be in games, but if they are then the game should be replayable enough that you want to replay it and do all the choices.
Yes, but then the problem is that they aren't really choices. Your only choice is what order you want to do them in, but that's not what people mean when they talk about choice in video games, I think. Nobody says Crash Bandicoot 2 has a deep choice system because you can choose what order to play the levels in.
>But I guess I do understand the compulsion to do everything the game has to offer, I just pretty rarely feel that way about things I play.
Then I commend you for being less autistic than I. I suppose there have been cases where I just go for the best ending and then look up the worse endings after, if the only difference is how good you are at the game. So fine. It's better if you unlock the different videos to watch from a menu or something, and getting the good one unlocks the bad ones. Unless there are special bad ones, where you do so badly it was actually difficult to do, like getting $0 in Ducktales or something.
>>16860721
>How is that not a choice though?
In the end it's not a choice because if you want to see everything you'll have to make all the different choice combos anyway.
I don't actually care about choices in video games. I think they're moot. Shadow the Hedgehog did it best, but in the end, all the choices are moot and they're just excuses to practice levels over and over to help you get better ranks. Which I suppose is one reason it's the best choice system. The choices help facilitate the gameplay.
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cd2cb6 No.16863782
>>16857798
>Sauce on that OP pic
Gou-Dere Bishoujo Nagihara Sora
made with the combined efforts of the authors from My Balls and Heaven's Lost Property. The plot is like, just make heirs bro.
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371671 No.16863829
>>16863782
The plot was an excuse for the mangaka to shitpost at the audience he baited in. And it was fantastic.
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