/v/ - Video Games

>>16715219

A roguelike is any game that shares the same core gameplay as Rogue, i.e. a top-down, turn-based RPG with bump combat. Everything else is irrelevant.

Caves of Qud, asci version is free, tile set version is $20 on steam, but its a great roguelike.

Another one is Subterrain which is more of a top down shooter with Roguelike elements.

>>16715219

>Lately I've been really getting into the concept of rogue-likes, what differs them from rogue-lites?

Roguelikes are games that are like Rogue.

"Roguelites" is a term created by the imbeciles who couldn't stop calling everything with one life and some RNG a roguelike, but were finally bullied to the point where they at least called it something else.

>>16715416

I looked for the free version no can find

>>16715425

This. It should be fucking obvious when a game is enough like rogue for the description to be useful. Only thing muddying the water here are buzzword spouting marketers and their brainbleached victims.

>>16715495

I have nothing to sell.

>>16715607

>There is no solid definition for what is one

Sure there is, the name defines itself, with things like the berlin interpretation to help people like you understand what Rogue is like. The further something strays from a genre, especially one that IS well defined, the more you look like a fool when you insist it should be used for everything.

>>16715690

http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation

>Missing some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise, possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.

Congratulations you just proved that there's no solid definition for it.

>>16715690

Not really. People still argue over it for a reason. The Berlin Interpretation brings gives you factors to use to determine whether something might be a roguelike, but it's still up to argument.

Some people argue that Dwarf Fortress adventure mode is a roguelike because of the graphics and turn-based time system, but others disagree because the game doesn't take place in a single dungeon like Rogue does. Others argue about whether or not Diablo is a roguelike, because it, like Rogue, involves moving deeper and deeper into a vertically-oriented randomly-generated dungeon to fight a big monster at the bottom, because it doesn't have ASCII graphics and operates in real-time.

The Berlin Interpretation is minimally useful, because it is, for the very most part, just a description of Rogue and its attributes.

>>16715398

It has to be ascii too.

>>16715752

This is the issue with a genre classification being based on a specific game. Nobody plays Rogue anymore. Hack and slash and dungeon crawler can evolve over time, because it isn't tied to a singular game.

>>16715718

>Missing some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise, possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.

That was added much later, probably because people like you whined about "b-but edward mcminton calls his gay baby simulator a roguelike so you must all be wrong"

That list provides the defining features of the game Rogue, and describes it in relation to other extremely similar games that were created afterwards in its image. Regardless of your faggotry, the more of that list that accurately applies to a game, the more like Rogue it is, and the more it deserves to be called a "Roguelike".

Conversely, and this is the important part, the less in common it has, the more you should be thinking about what genre the game ACTUALLY is. For example, The Binding of Isaac is a twin-stick shooter (and a pretty fucking terrible one at that.)

>>16715752

There's no such thing as a graphical roguelike, it's some other genre.

The way I've understood it is that a roguelike is a game with procedural generation that puts the player at a full reset upon dying.

A roguelite also has procedural generation although may give the player "unlocks" or powers that are gained in between "runs".

>>16715796

Yes. So what is the genre, anon?

The most important aspects are tile-based and turn-based.

>>16715788

I mean, you're the one who's saying that every game is a roguelike. Blame your own gay ass interpretation for that. You can't go "well actually the 2nd revision was the right one".

How about you stop being retarded and settle on an actual definition as opposed to a ton of worthless ass points. "Permadeath tilebased turnbased procedural generation" sure fuck it good enough to weed out a ton of shit not and isn't some pedantic nonsense like "Well see it does everything else, but it's not ascii based so it's actually it's own genre called roguelikelitelikelite". I've heard people claim that nethack wasn't a roguelike because it had sokoban.

That and I'll point it out again, your definition is so weak that I can argue basically any RPG is a roguelike by the berlin interpretation.

Roguelike is more about the spirit than some specific list of definitions. It's like punk music. The whole purpose of punk music is that it's made by some amateurs who don't even know how to sing or play any instruments but they don't care. Everyone knows what punk is but then there's also the merchants who dress up some bloke in punk outfit and make him sing a pop-song and then in order to sell more they slap all kind of definitions to the song like hard-rock dance-punk new-wave post-wank and then it makes it to the top40 list and they play it on every radio channel. It's not really punk even though the singer has a leather jacket and a funny hair style and everyone knows it.

Same with roguelikes. Binding of isaac isn't really roguelike. It's action-adventure roleplaying-game zelda-like roguelite RTS with minecraft elements kind of game. Everyone knows it isn't really like those neckbeard niche games but for some reason merchants try to pass it as such as a marketing trick or whatever.

>>16715992

Dude why did you post a randomly generated third person isometric dungeon crawler with permadeath

>>16715921

>ASCII doesn't matter.

Do you call a third person shooter a FPS?

>>16716019

>>16716030

I downloaded it way back when. Is it out yet or is it still in development?

>>16716026

Never played it, I was thinking about playing ToME though, someone reccomended it a bit ago, but it's got a price tag so I've been holding off.

>>16716035

Third person vs first person affects gameplay, graphics don't have to.

A game should be categorized by gameplay.

>>16716054

ascii graphics are integral to the gameplay of roguelikes.

>>16716069

What gameplay uses those graphics, go on; explain how if i modified rouge to use non-ascii it would no longer be a rougelike, despite being rouge itself.

>>16716073

I'm not an expert in game design to be able to explain it but you'd have to simplify it down too much for graphics to not matter. Like saying

>Well fps and tps are the same game because both just are point and shoot

>>16716042

ToME's alright. It's much more streamlined than a typical roguelike (a skillbar with cooldowns, very distinct classes that limit how your character progresses, auto-identification after a certain point, etc.) but it's not bad, the combat is good and fun to break and unlocking new races/classes is enjoyable.

Biggest gripe is that the early game gets really old and repetitive after a while, but supposedly the next update is going to overhaul.

Also worth keeping in mind that while it has a price tag on Steam and GoG, you can download the base game for free off the dude's website. Only the DLC actually requires you to pay for/pirate it.

>>16716084

Thats not an argument, thats not an anything; taking a bunch more work does not change its fucking genre you retard.

>doubling down on graphics are the same as gameplay differences.

>>16716094

Should tps and fps be the same genre then? I mean the only difference is if you see your character or not.

>>16716101

Perspective effects gameplay, it literally changes your field of view.

Graphics do not do this.

>>16716106

So if I change a fps' FOV from 90 to 120 did I change the genre?

>>16716109

Shit you can do in the options menu does not define a game.

Much less limiting your view is not changing gameplay.

>>16716115

>changing the field of view changes the genre

>except when it doesn't

>>16716115

C'mon, you're nearly there….

>>16715992

Modern unicode has nearly 138000 unique symbols, and that's before bringing in color. Try doing that with sprites.

>>16716121

And graphics aren't your field of view retard.

Even if you try to push your retarded argument that relies on genres have a tiny range that is illogical.'

Its "roguelike" not "literally rogue".

>>16716109

Is your view still that of looking through the character's eyes? Then it's still first person because the FOV isn't the same as perspective.

This is why I hate these types of threads, graphics don't matter to a roguelike. There are tile based versions of Rogue, do they stop being Rogue because it's not ascii?

>>16716140

>Then it's still first person because the FOV isn't the same as perspective.

The guy was claiming FOV changing was what made it go from fps to tps

>There are tile based versions of Rogue, do they stop being Rogue because it's not ascii?

yes

>>16716127

Although I did say ASCII, that can be ignored for nitpicking's sake. That's a good point. It might be quite interesting to have an Orc be "O" and an Orc with a sword be "Ó". I don't know if an ASCII vs. Tiles debate is even worthwhile when the reason for ASCII was that you didn't have to do art for everything you wanted to add.

>>16716148

>The guy was claiming FOV changing was what made it go from fps to tps

That was bad wording, i meant in terms of perspective change anyway.

>yes

And you can't back up your argument.

There is zero reason to even argue here because you can't win with no actual argument.

>>16715811

The fact that you fucking faggots will waste a single second arguing about specific definitions WHEN EVERYONE AND THEIR FUCKING MOTHER KNOWS WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY ROGUELIKE infuriates me to no end.

>oh no but actually thats a rogueLITE

WHO THE FUCK CARES

>>16716158

Although I don't think ASCII is important for a roguelike, if you change something about a game it literally becomes a different game. The argument is whether that change actually matters. If you change one letter in a game's title it becomes different. If you change one bit in the source code it becomes a "different" game.

>>16716276

Wow excuse you, that's not ascii. Rogue confirmed not a roguelike

>>16715398

So toejam and earl is not a roguelike because it doesnt have bump combat despite having everything else?

>>16715946

No the most important parts are that the game is an rpg, has randomly generated levels, and has permadeath.

>>16716445

>the most autistic

I disagree. It's really just a bunch of idiots pretending to be smart.

>>16716445

>ethical system under capitalism

Even if you did they'd just move the goalposts and say that it doesn't fit their definition of ethical.

>>16716042

The game's website has the game for free, any price tag is stuff like expansions or donator perks like cosmetics, as well as a single class.

>>16716127

a modern display can show 16.5 million unique colours, on a 16x16 sprite thats (16.5*10^6)^(16*16) possible different unique sprites before transparency. When simplified thats 4.7*10^573 which is a number so gargantuan that I had to do the calculation by hand because my calculator refused to work with it. Not only that, all unicode characters that exist or have the possibility to exist are a subset of those possible sprites. And that's only 16x16. fuck you

Autism aside, are there any RLs that limit your field of view so you don't just have omnivision?

>>16717205

Do you mean like a vision cone? Unreal World has a directional system with basically a half circle of vision in whatever direction you're looking.

>>16717232

Yeah, something like that.

I thought about how to implement such a thing, but to look around and managing your facing, that seems tedious. Unless you could move the mouse around during your turn, and you can see as much as you take the time to look for it

>>16717205

>>16717235

I think I answered this in another thread. Gearhead 1 & 2.

>>16717235

It's been quite a while since I've played it, but the implementation in UnReal World isn't clunky, just takes a little getting used to like any new RL scheme. Closest approximate description I'd give it is it's like digital tank controls. There's also a yellow arrow near your sprite that shows exactly what direction you're facing. I think it works to acclimate you in that game because of the sheer amount of downtime you have just cooking, tanning, etc., so you have a ton of time to get oriented.

>>16717242

Yes you did, sorry. I forgot what game and thread it was, and this seemed like a more relevant place to ask it.

>>16717264

Yeah, I can't find that thread either. It's a pretty good game if you're into mech combat.

>>16717205

Some of them, like cataDDA, have omnivision but in night(or inside) you limited by light.

>>16716464

Hell if you go and create communism then they'll just move the goalposts about that an say that it isn't real communism.

>>16717329

I feel like there'd be more tension if you didn't see everything around you at all times.

Like say you're moving through a dungeon, and goblins are trying to sneak up on you. You could move carelessly around, only seeing like 120 in front of you, and you'd have to move your view around to ensure things aren't trying to kill you.

>>16717351

Well, its kind of what happening in cata dda. They also have sound system, which makes more sense than "everyone behind you is invisible and silent". Limited eyesight is useless without sounds and barely any games have them. In most you dont even know from which direction you were hit.

>>16717351

I agree that limited vision could be more utilized. Complemented with properly implemented other senses, it could be used as a solution for that "why not just auto-explore" question.

>>16717351

With a lot of enemies this stuff would make tic calculation a fucking mess to balance. Like twice the coding that usually goes into movement calcs.

>>16717432

How do you figure? Normally, a monster wouldn't care to stay out of sight unless it wanted to sneak attack. Ranged monsters and animals would probably just move in normally

>>16717439

Movement code in round based systems is subordinated to the most frequent tic, so if you have a lot of perception checks that occur more frequently than unit movement you'd need to wrap it up in a hierarchy. It's a pain in the ass.

>>16717439

>>16717454

BTW, if you have initiative checks, then you have a round based or phased system. Most RLs aren't turn based.

>>16717439

Just think about it. Regular 360 view serves is reasonable approximation of what a character will do in most cases. Each turn is not a fraction of a second(at least at the start of the game), just because you "see" everything on screen, does not mean that your character relies only on eyesight. Its not as simple as "I have 120 eyesight and no other senses." Also human mind loves to pay a lot of attention to peripheral vision. When something moves in it, in many cases you will look in that direction or at least it will annoy you a lot. Its simple survival reflex.

To implement something like this properly you need smaller turns, so it will mean rebalance of everything/more precise time system. Than you will need other senses and whole system around them. And you need whole stealth system with monsters reacting to all of the above and rebalance around the fact that you can be stealthy. Unless its the whole gimmick of the game it does not really improve anything. CataDDA has something like it, but even there sound system is fucked, smells are 100% abstract, eyesight are limited only by light.

In many cases it only works on mech games because it takes more than a few seconds to turn.

Also 120 degrees is a very fucking limited eyesight. Its to the point where you only look forward, probably with only one fixed eye in the middle of your head and without neck.

>Humans have a slightly over 210-degree forward-facing horizontal arc of their visual field

210 fucking degrees. And if you move head slightly its more. And it takes a fraction of a second.

friendly reminder that roguelikes =/= roguelites

>>16717184

Each of the unicode symbols looks fairly unique. A sprite with the 5,4 pixel being green and the rest white and a sprite with the 5,5 pixel being green instead do not look unique.

Sprites are objectively the inferior method of conveying information, aside from the fact that text is the universal interface. Even a blind man can play a roguelike with a proper text-based output.

Fuck you and fuck your "graphics".

>>16717772

>Modern unicode has nearly 138000 unique symbols, and that's before bringing in color. Try doing that with sprites.

buddy, the argument you made is that there are more unicode characters than possible sprites. not only are you wrong, you're retarded. get your dick out of your ear you fuckin mong

In truth, I do enjoy the simplicity of conveying information through as little as possible (a la unicode). Used correctly, unicode can look a lot cleaner than traditional sprites. But I still think graphics are superior just because I don't want to spend time learning what some specific game thinks '^' means. Clarity of information stops being helpful when it necessitates heinous obfuscation. Even if that means cucking the blind man out of his video games. I don't want my experience crippled by the cripples.

>>16717575

I've been playing a lot of it and I do too. I think that having a handwritten plot is cool but fuck doing Red Rock a million times. What I'm doing is working through the main quest on a non-permadeath character and then when that gets tiresome I turn permadeath back on and roll a character in a random town.

I wish the randomly-generated books were better

>>16717323

How about you post a link for this Berzerk roguelike then? Google finds a lot of different shit.

>>16715607

The guy in your screencap is right.

>>16718165

reading more of that screencap, you're so cancer, even have to add your own epic youtuber commentary because your posts don't stand on their own.

>>16715219

elona :^)

>>16717880

>is my wife's son white guize

>well, did he grow up in a white culture, have european ancestry, light skin and white features?

>WELL DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE MIXED RACE PEOPLE OUT THERE SO WHITE DOESNT EXIST

>WHAT ABOUT THIS WHITE KID THAT ACTS LIKE A BLACK DOES THAT MEAN YOURE GOING TO SHOOT HIM

>WHAT IF AN ASIAN HAS VERY WHITE SKIN DOES THAT MEAN HE'S ARYAN

>THIS GUY HAS A BIG NOSE IS HE NOT WHITE NOW

Just because the borders between definitions are vague, doesn't mean the definitions must be changed to include everything under the sun.

I get that you're booty blasted because somebody called your favorite game a roguelite, but that doesn't mean it's bad or not fun, it's just not a roguelike. It's not like rogue.

That's it.

>>16715800

That's not it at all. Roguelite just means the games has elements of a Roguelike RPG such as permadeath and procedural generation. The only reason a distinction exists is loads of people get butthurt when a game which isn't turn based and using a tileset gets described as a Roguelike.

>>16717821

>we aren't allowed to have words that distinguish mario from spelunky

>we're supposed to pretend their exactly the same kind of game

Fucking retarded image.

>>16718280

The image doesn't say that at all

Roguelite is the worst fucking genre term ever. Binding of Isaac, Nuclear Thone, and Gungeon have much much more in common with any arcade twin stick shooter than they do with any roguelike.

>>16718315

>lists Spelunky as a "platformer"

>provides no word to distinguish it from platformers like Mario

>insists the most commonly used genre title for this distinction is "useless"

Fucks up on the most basic level. Complete failure to understand why genre titles exist.

>>16718383

Then what word gets used for these subdivisions then?

>"A roguelike is like rogue"

<"You mean like Spelunky?"

>"No, fuck you"

The "A roguelike is like rogue" definition is stupid.

Randomized levels are distinctly what sets Rogue apart from other RPGs. A roguelike is when you apply random levels to any genre of game there is. A traditional roguelike is when you apply random levels to an RPG specifically.

Is Minecraft a roguelike then? Hint: It's the same thing as Cataclysm or Unreal world.

>>16717205

Dwarf Fort adventure mode.

>>16717575

>>16718022

Red rock is great my dude, yes its boring but it has the least bullshit thrown at you.

You go to red rock, do the quest, turn in gadgets to the mechanic.

Then you should be level 3-4 with salves.

Travel to the fungal jungle with waterskins and walk the border of it in the normal jungle popping your head in to find wine, cider, and water seeps.

Use your teleporter to go back to Joppa then reap a shit load of water.

THEN go to grite gate, after you get a higher level head back east to the deadlands and walk the border while in the ruins popping your head in to find high level gear.

>>16715416

Is Qud that ultrapozzed one with "every time I hear X I add another gay mutant"?

>>16718410

>Game only has to feature randomized levels to be considered a Roguelike

Let's say that we can generate a level using random and fixed room templates. For the sake of this argument, let's also say that our game is very sparse, and we don't take advantage of the randomized rooms, but instead have 52 premade templates. So, we decide that to make up for it, we'll put one template on each floor, so that each level has exactly one static, premade room.

But! To keep things exciting and different, we'll shuffle the rooms around so we don't know which order we'll go through the levels. Is this a roguelike?

Of course not, I just described a fucking deck of cards

>>16718830

If you were to make a tabletop rpg where each section of the dungeon is determined from you randomly drawing a card from a deck I would consider that pretty damn close to a traditional roguelike.

>>16718830

I think what makes the difference is progression. If you have 52 levels of Sokoban, but are now tasked to play them in a random order, that's not enough. But if each level can effect your progress in a unique way, that makes the difference.

Like if you were given the levels in this order:

12-3-6

and each level can influence your decisions in the next one…

You would have a different experience on level 6 than if you were given this:

34-23-6

So then a roguelike would involve randomized levels with progression. All of the levels have to be connected in some way, at least vaguely. It doesn't have to be a good game to fit into the genre.

>>16719117

Then how would a game like Binding of Isaac not be a roguelike? If you really wanted to split hairs, you could argue that because the game runs at 60 fps, every second is amortized to have 60 turns that you have either take or skip automatically, ergo it's still "turn based"

Note: I'm content with it being considered a roguelite, however

>>16719146

I think it is a roguelike, and roguelites are a subcategory of roguelikes.

Turns are an okay complaint on the surface, since having them is enough to remove any influence of your reflexes. But saying a game is not a roguelike for reaction tests is like saying Paper Mario is not an RPG for it's gimmicks. Reflex based gameplay is not "traditional" for roguelikes or RPGs even, but it does not make sense to bar games in some way for it. Saying Spelunky should only be considered a platformer is like saying Paper Mario should only be considered a platformer. They both are platformers, sure, but that's not adequate to describe them.

A roguelike does not have to be a "good" game to be a roguelike either. The definition should be whittled down to the essence of the genre.

The closest thing to that is random levels with progression.

>>16718264

Turn-based vs real time is an enormous difference in how a game plays.

>>16718758

The devs are indeed extremely pozzed but I've never found the game to be particularly annoying in that regard. Basically, get the game without paying money.

>>16717575

Will the paid retarded version have any improvement besides, I guess, mouse usage and dwarven trannies?

>This argument again

When will people fucking realize that both of those names are shit and don't tell us anything about the game? Even among rougelikes there are games like ADOM which is more of an actual RPG with plot and an overworls and games like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup which is a pure dungeon crawler, or something like Cataclysm which is a survival-focused game. I would say that many rougelikes should be categorized in subgenres and some in completely different genres as there is so much that differentiates those fucking games that experiences you can get from them are completely different.

Same with rougelites, are we talking an action-dungeon crawler like Binding of Isaac? Or a management game like FTL? It seems silly to take all of those vastly different games under one umbrella term.

>>16719512

>When will people fucking realize that both of those names are shit and don't tell us anything about the game?

Don't even get me started on 4X

The argument of roguelike vs roguelite is one of the most autistic things on the internet today. Yes, some games are far closer to roguelikes and some games are obviously roguelites, but there's a giant squishy line between them that nobody can properly define, and arguing over it is entirely unproductive. And in the end, it doesn't really matter.

C:DDA and DF adventure are good games.

>>16719571

Seems the main concern for the people that argue about it are that a roguelike has to be difficult to play and obtuse, and a roguelite is easier to play and generally with less options for the player.

>>16716464

ethical capitalism can't be ethical if jews are involved.

>>16719414

seems like the unpaid version is missing. can never find it. YAY FOR WOKE CAPITALISM.

Prospector could be considered a proper Rouge-like and its completely free, its like Space based Unreal World

>>16718182

not really all of them and this is OP. I actually hate jews. no I don't care if it goes to ZOG, because I want to accelerate the collapse of the empire.

>>16719800

Just get the latest version from GOD

https://letsupload.co/2kGG/caves_of_qud_game-2018-Nov-05-1807.rar

>>16719397

>Roguelites are a broad category of games containing some of the aspects that make a roguelike while roguelikes are a specific classification.

>Your paper mario example falls flat because the RPG category is extremely broad whereas the roguelike category is fairly specific.

Roguelikes as a category are broad, like the rest. And that category includes roguelites and traditional roguelikes. What separates Super Mario Brothers from Spelunky is the same thing that separates Rogue from a generic dungeon crawler. That thing, when isolated, is what defines the genre. They are not just superficially "like rogue", but do what rogue did. And that is to increase the replayability of an existing concept by randomizing levels and adding progression (if lacking). Rogue was inspired by adventure games, and the point was to make it so you have a different adventure each time you play.

You can give almost anything the roguelike treatment. That is why it ends up such a broad category.

>>16719575

The main issue is from people seeing Steam mislabeling things as roguelikes. But if you go to Steam for traditional roguelikes you are barking up the wrong tree. 90% of the roguelikes I end up playing are straight ASCII with hard traditional design. There are piles of these out there and are pretty easy to find, as they are easy to make. But they have poor presentation value and so wont sell well without a lot of cosmetic fluff added. The fluff is a big part of what Steamfags use to show their games are worth paying money for. As a result traditional roguelikes on steam are often simplistic compared to free alternatives.

As a fan of traditional roguelike design, why pay money for something you can get for free? You are not playing roguelikes for the things that make Steam games profitable to begin with. If you are playing an action game, the graphical aspects become more important, and so more profitable.

the Red Prison I found to be authentic. and its Free to Play.

having a hard time figuring out the controls for turn based combat, tho

>>16719921

page not found

>>16719935

I agree with the loose definition of roguelikes, but i would add loosing temporary/all progression upon death and deaths/restarts being a central theme of roguelikes that differentiates them from other genres where death means loading your last save file.

>>16717821

>no check for ascii graphics

Shit chart.

>>16717821

>Do you control a single character from a first or third person perspective?

What other perspective is there? I've not played a second person perspective game. How would a zero or fourth person perspective game even work? Any game where you control a single character would fall into that.

This is the best roguelike I've played. Not even joking

>>16720612

The term has become synonymous with "hardcore" since the genre is well known for being very unforgiving. Normalfags are not nearly autistic enough to enjoy actual roguelikes, but still want to seem hardcore so they slap that tag on any adventure game they feel has some high consequence for making mistakes. It's basically calling something the "darksouls of X games" which was popular a few years ago.

The term used to mean something but now it doesn't and we have niggers like >>16719935 and >>16720081 to blame for it.

>>16720916

Some degree of luck is required. Tome4 is a good example of opposite. You either play(somewhat) perfectly or you lose. There are not that much window to try to play for fun or try different strategies. There are not that much possible "bad luck" but there are no tools to prevent bad luck as result, like teleport scrolls. Luck adds more possibilities to the game, even bad one, unless its faggot devs.

But sometimes its frustrating, yes. Especially if it was not your fault and you could do nothing against it. Like how I got a fucking hydra on 1st level in dcss.

But than again I personally dislike un-id potions and scrolls, I think its excessive, even if its fun to read a scroll while hoping that its teleport scroll. But at the same time chaos/mutation classes are just fine the way they are, because its the whole point. It just identifying a shitload of stuff is really fucking slow.

But the best random is when it really affects how you play the whole game. But it barely exist. Its basically boils down to picking a weapon and sticking to that weapon type for the rest of the game. But only if all of weapon types are viable, otherwise you just wait for a good one every single fucking time.

A lot of developers dont understand why you have random in games. Like how a lot of games have 5% chance to miss. Why? Because dnd had it! Same shit with ascii. Some faggots (like mentioned tome4) have such awful engine which is slow as fuck for a fucking 2d tile game and yet they have ascii mode. Its absolutely unplayable for many reasons, but its there!

>>16715607

Why are you so angry about proper genre definitions being maintained? You are like a tranny that gets mad about being called out as a man when he wants to believe his gaping crotch wound makes him a woman.

>>16717366

about cdda, did they implement the faction camp system? how can you make your own camp ?

>>16720996

The problem with the term rogue-like is that it's a retarded non-genre centered around a specific game, no other game or media does this. Imagine if instead of having the genre of horror we had spergouts about whether the X-Files is a Dracula-like or Frankenstein-like. Is the X-Files very similar to the Dracula or Frankenstein novels? Not at all, but they all share TRAITS that are part of the horror genre, genres are descriptors of the traits the media has, not direct similes to other media, hence "rogue-like" and "rogue-lite" aren't actual genres since they're just a vague statement of similarity to rogue (and hence why there's so much butthurt over HOW similar they have to be to be included in this dumb un-genre).

Now turn-based rpgs, games with randomly generated levels, with permadeath, or are ascii-based ARE all valid genres that rogue belongs to, and games with any or all of these traits are to a certain extent "like rogue", so if retards could use these actual genres to describe games rather than those nonsense terms which are only good for activating autism then that would be swell.

A better discussion is whether stuff like DF, CDDA, Unreal World count as Roguelikes. Gridbased, turnbased, permadeath, procgen. These are way closer to Roguelikes than fucking Spelunky or BoI. To some people having an end is an important aspect of a Roguelike.

>>16720912

>people use it instead of hardcore

>desperately tries to use 2 posts as an example but they prove him wrong by explaining what elements of rogue define the roguelike genre.

You are not that good at this whole "thinking" stuff, are you ? Just because its not a 1-1 remake of rogue that includes every last line of original code does not mean its not a roguelike.

Also yeah it actually is a bit like with "soulslikes" because that is also a loosely defined genre spawned by a single game/series that attracts wannabe pro-gamers like you that try to lecture others without knowing anything.

Unreal World is the best game you're not playing

>>16721534

>Just because its not a 1-1 remake of rogue

Roguelikes should contain all the elements that Rogue contained. Leniency regarding a couple missing elements is possible depending on what elements are missing. Roguelikes containing all the elements of Rogue are not 1-1 remakes of rogue. They can and do contain additional gameplay elements, differences in functionality of elements, differences in game progression, differences in lore, and differences in character creation. You can have all the elements of something without being the exact same thing, retard.

>>16721790

Why though ?

Its called rogue"like" as in "its like rogue"

If a dev goes out and screams about how hes making a spiritual successor to rogue then sure everything needs to be done the same way rogue does it, but if you make something similar to/like rogue then i don't see why everything needs to imitate rogue itself.

For example its not the turn based combat or tile based movement that defines rogue and sets it apart from other games so why should that be a defining feature of roguelikes ? Shouldnt the term be about what sets rogue apart from other games ?

I just think you are focusing on the more generic elements of rouge and miss what actually makes it special.

>>16721899

>screams about how hes making a spiritual successor to rogue

Spiritual successors are not remakes.

>For example its not the turn based combat or tile based movement that defines rogue and sets it apart from other games so why should that be a defining feature of roguelikes ?

>It's not the topings on a pizza that make it a pizza! If you have the flatbread you can call it a pizza!

>Shouldnt the term be about what sets rogue apart from other games ?

<Roguelike

<like

>apart i.e. differentiated

Retarded.

>I just think you are focusing on the more generic elements of rouge and miss what actually makes it special.

I don't think you are making the least bit of sense now, and on this topic in particular what makes something special is subjective. I happen to think all the elements of Rogue make it special. I do prefer successors to Rogue more because of what they do with the elements they borrow from Rogue, but that in no way makes what Rogue does do less special. However, I do not like a "roguelike" that drops those elements and still calls itself a "roguelike." It cheapens the notifier and turns it into a joke at best and a marketing scheme at best.

>>16721963

*at worst

>>16721901

You can download it for free.

>>16722046

>this doesn't apply to every game

I did do, but I enjoyed it and wanted the dev to get some money for it.

>>16721641

>Unreal World is the best game you're not playing

Sorry, but no.

Until there's a mod that replaces all the ugly Finns with cute anime girls, I refuse to play it.

>>16722451

Cool your autism man, your lack of arguments is not compensated by a sperg-out.

>MUH BRECISE DERMINOLOGY

is not a convincing argument to create retarded and artificial rules for what counts as part of a certain genre.

Nobody is "artificially warping" anything but your shizo mind and its inability to understand the defining features of rogue.

Also both "clips" and "magazines" have objective definitions that differ from each other. Something being a part of a certain genre depends on the definition of that genre, something without a "100% true and objective" meaning. Its up to debate and i dont see your shitposting ass as an authority on that topic.

>>16722717

Civ 5 is my favorite roguelike too bro, don't feel bad.

>>16722717

Duck Hunt is a first person shooter.

>>16722904

But doom isn't.

>>16722451

>It has a fairly concise and widely accepted definition with clearly defined constraints that are plenty flexible already.

Whether or not a roguelike even has to be turn based has been in dispute since around 2003 by fairly prominent members of the community. And every year I stick my head into the 7DRL you still see people trying to figure out if a new idea is or isn't roguelike because it ticks a number of boxes but misses 1 or 2.

I don't know what world you live in where roguelike isn't the same kind of semi-vague definition that metroidvania turned into.

>>16722961

>Whether or not a roguelike even has to be turn based has been in dispute since around 2003 by fairly prominent members of the community.

Who gives a shit? Rogue was turn based.

>>16724091

By that logic only a rogue is roguelike, everything else not, because they are different from it.

>>16724114

That retarded argument has been refuted several times in this thread already.

>doomclone is any game with savepoints and fixed levels

The retards spouting this tier logic don't actually give a shit about roguelikes, so there really isn't any point in addressing their "arguments".

>>16724140

>Who gives a shit? Rogue was turn based.

>>16724091

> Rogue was turn based.

And the value of whether or not turn-based gameplay is critical for a game to be called a roguelike is still being contested. Because you can still have a procedurally generated RPG with perma-death, item identification, resource management, and hack n slash gameplay without turn based movement. Even the much vaunted Berlin Interpretation specifically states, regardless of when it was added to it, that a game that omits some of the high or low value factors isn't automatically disqualified from being called a roguelike.

I posted Baroque earlier and I stand by that, it's the best roguelike I've played and I can't think of a reason not to call it a roguelike because it's a first person hack n slash. Very rarely do I see people this up in arms to mix genres than I do with the roguelike community because the moment someone takes a twin stick shooter and adds roguelike elements people lost their shit. Can you imagine a world where RPG's and Beat-em-ups didn't merge and give us River City Ransom?

>>16724202

You must just be baiting to come off so fucking retarded.

>>16724242

>And the value of whether or not turn-based gameplay is critical for a game to be called a roguelike is still being contested.

Like I said, who gives a shit what retards trying to obfuscate a classification think about one of the essential elements of rogue not being 'critical' to a game being like rogue. That you are even using this logical fallacy of the opions of the so called important people "in the roguelike community" to justify such a retarded position as "roguelikes don't need to be turn based" shows that you have no argument on your own.

>Because you can still have a procedurally generated RPG with perma-death, item identification, resource management, and hack n slash gameplay without turn based movement.

And you have a game that plays very little like fucking rogue that you are calling a roguelike when you do that.

>Even the much vaunted Berlin Interpretation specifically states, regardless of when it was added to it, that a game that omits some of the high or low value factors isn't automatically disqualified from being called a roguelike.

The Berlin interpretation is another faux standard by "the community" and is worth exactly jack shit.

>I posted Baroque earlier and I stand by that, it's the best roguelike I've played and I can't think of a reason not to call it a roguelike because it's a first person hack n slash. Very rarely do I see people this up in arms to mix genres than I do with the roguelike community because the moment someone takes a twin stick shooter and adds roguelike elements people lost their shit. Can you imagine a world where RPG's and Beat-em-ups didn't merge and give us River City Ransom?

>wah boohoo we can't just label games that aren't like rogue as roguelikes without people who care saying something about it boo waaa

Your example of a twin stick shooter with roguelike elements is fine to exist and nobody would say otherwise. You seem to have the flawed idea that people not wanting you calling a game that isn't enough like Rogue to be a roguelike a roguelike just because it has some elements in common with Rogue.

>>16724380

>who gives a shit what retards trying to obfuscate a classification think about one of the essential elements of rogue not being 'critical' to a game being like rogue.

Because words by their nature are built around consensus. Genre's are no exception as people have to agree on what a genre entails for the purpose of classification. Trying to cry "Muh Fallacy" now because people don't agree with you is less of an argument than what you claim I'm doing.

Why should I care about what some anon on the internet thinks is critical for a roguelike when people who have made both traditional and experimental roguelikes have a different opinion that has gained traction?

>And you have a game that plays very little like fucking rogue that you are calling a roguelike when you do that.

>does everything else Rogue does but isn't restricted to a grid

Not that big a deal since it ticks every other box.

>The Berlin interpretation is another faux standard by "the community" and is worth exactly jack shit.

Once again, you can't dismiss a largely used and utilized definition just because you don't like it. How about you provide a definition of Roguelike since you seem to think you're more qualified?

>You seem to have the flawed idea that people not wanting you calling a game that isn't enough like Rogue to be a roguelike a roguelike just because it has some elements in common with Rogue.

<game has elements that make it like rogue, in fact a large number of common points

<but it's not a roguelike because it doesn't do other things like rogue

This is basically your argument. I'm sorry you're using the "genre + other genre elements" line to say that "it's not actually like that other genre because it's just elements" but that's not how classification systems work. You're the kind of person who says Super Smash Bros isn't a fighting game aren't you?

>>16725398

>Because words by their nature are built around consensus.

Consensus isn't reached by the so called nobility of a genre deciding "hey, it's the current year, we can relax the definitions a little, roguelikes don't need to be turn-based and mutilated dicks can be considered vaginas" while the majority just has to sit back and accept that because the authority has decided. Sorry, but that's a logical fallacy I am just not going to swallow.

For that matter consensus matters for definitions only in that the definition makes logical sense. What a roguelike is and what qualifies as a roguelike is exceedingly fucking simple to determine based on logic alone. Retarded shit like "but a roguelike doesn't need to be turn-based like rogue" falls flat on its face when you apply logic, which is why nigger faggots like you make appeals to authority or other contrived logical fallacies.

Lastly, nigger, the modern drive to redefine shit into meaninglessness is very jewish. It is the same thing with "we should call ourselves players, not gamers" and the ones pushing these redefinitions/newspeak are AIDs vectors of the worst sort.

>Not that big a deal since it ticks every other box.

Not a big deal to you, but I couldn't give less of a shit about your opinion now.

>Once again, you can't dismiss a largely used and utilized definition just because you don't like it.

I sure can and did.

>I'm sorry you're using the "genre + other genre elements" line to say that "it's not actually like that other genre because it's just elements" but that's not how classification systems work.

No I am not saying it's "genre + other genre elements" I'm saying it isn't genre at all, but has some elements from that genre. The core elements are what matter the most. You aren't even discussing elements of Rogue that could even be argued superfluous to a game being like Rogue. Shit like turn-based isn't negotiable when it comes to being like Rogue. It just fucking isn't.

>You're the kind of person who says Super Smash Bros isn't a fighting game aren't you?

Well if I wanted to be jewish like you I could say that any game that you fight in is a fighting game. :^) but no I do consider Super Smash Bros. a fighting game since it has core elements of fighting games in it even if it doesn't play the same as the majority of fighting games. Notice that combo of words again. Core elements. Remember that if you can, nigger.

>hes still sperging about his slowpoke combat that can be found in dozens of other genres.

Defining features are what makes rogue different from other games and thus "roguelikes" into their own genre.

Turn based combat is the least unique thing about the game besides its name so why would that be a defining feature?

The "core" elements are meaningless if you can find them in a ton of games that are obviously not roguelikes.

Some genres are defined by basic gameplay mechanics, some others like roguelikes are not.

>>16724242

>TSS

>RL

What the hell

>>16726377

>(1)

Nice ID hop.

>Defining features are what makes rogue different from other games and thus "roguelikes" into their own genre. Turn based combat is the least unique thing about the game besides its name so why would that be a defining feature?

Gee, I don't know, why would how you play the game be a core gameplay element in a game? Surely it is a mystery only the greatest mind could solve.

>The "core" elements are meaningless if you can find them in a ton of games that are obviously not roguelikes.

Of course, the dough of a pizza isn't a defining element of a pizza because you can find bread in sandwiches! We should all just eat the pizza toppings in a bowl and call that pizza, who the fuck needs the dough?

>>16726440

enter the gungeon is a twin-stick-shooter rng dungeon-crawler with permadeath

make your own mind if its a roguelike or roguelite or none of that because i have not played it and the thread is already 75% arguing.

>>16726477

Im >>16722717 so no (you)

Im not arguing against it being important for Rogue itself as a game. Im arguing that its not relevant in differentiating it from other genres and thus its not relevant for defining the genre.

The turn based combat is not why anybody still cares about this one game after 40 years compared to 99% of other ascii adventure games (that often had turn based combat), so why should it define what the genre inspired by it ?

Your example is retarded because i just said that some genres depend on every bit of their basic structure(like pizzas).

I fully understand that it m

>>16726524

matter to rogue but its just stupid to limit other games because of it.

>>16726524

>Im not arguing against it being important for Rogue itself as a game. Im arguing that its not relevant in differentiating it from other genres and thus its not relevant for defining the genre.

So let me get this straight. It was important for Rogue… but not important for games being called roguelike? You wanna know why it is "not important"? For the same reason why pretty much every individual element about Rogue is considered "not important" whenever it is convenient to fit a game that is not a roguelike into the genre. Every single element becomes ready to be sacrificed for the sake of being inclusive with the genre and letting it be a marketing vehicle.

>The turn based combat is not why anybody still cares about this one game after 40 years compared to 99% of other ascii adventure games (that often had turn based combat), so why should it define what the genre inspired by it ?

Wrong. Turn based combat is why anybody still cares about this one game, because it is part of why the game worked. It is part of how actual roguelikes work and you would know this if you played more of them instead of games that are just called roguelikes. You do not have the same experience without the game being turn based. That turn based games exist in other genres does not suddenly make it not important to Rogue anymore than bread being in other dishes makes the pizza dough unimportant to a pizza. Actually stop and think about this retarded "logic" you are using.

>>16726557

You are just overinflating the value of tbc and maybe even rogue itself, that is all the "logic" there is to it. Might as well make ascii art a "must have" so that every roguelike becomes a perfect little rogue clone so the genre can become as stale as battleroyales or survival crafting shit. Changes to the holy texts are blasphemy after all.

>>16726217

>Consensus isn't reached by the so called nobility of a genre deciding

Well you don't like "community" and you don't agree with the creators of such content so who does decide what words mean and if they do change how?

>muh jews

Start making an argument. Better yet, actually define Roguelike like I've asked and then explain why turn based combat is instrumental? Why is it a core element?

>but I couldn't give less of a shit about your opinion now.

Well I'm glad you voiced something trivial instead of making a point.

>I'm saying it isn't genre at all, but has some elements from that genre

That's what I said? You're saying that just because a game has roguelike elements that doesn't make it roguelike.

>core elements

Again, explain why turn based actions are key to roguelikes? I'll even give you a start; I've heard it been said that the necessity of turn based actions in Roguelikes goes hand in hand with how actions are organized. Since everything in the gameworld updates every turn, the player has to make each decision count, which goes along well with the combat focused nature of the genre because sometimes the player has to make decisions while under attack so careful contemplation benefits having infinite time to think about it.

for a counter argument:

Real time games just create a different form of decision making process that, while it loses the benefit of infinite time, doesn't stop the player from juggling the myriad systems and items a game may possess. And having far more reactionary situations just adds a different layer of difficulty to a roguelike as opposed to diminishing it. Although it's worth noting that real-time games that are considered roguelikes still have pause functions which allow the player to take a chance to reconsider their options.

Now, please make an actual argument or response instead of delving further into /pol/lack territory.

>>16726931

>Well you don't like "community" and you don't agree with the creators of such content so who does decide what words mean and if they do change how?

I don't like someone using a small pool of the so called community to speak for everyone else, no. This applies to "creators" as well as there is quite a bit of conflict of interest. As far as who decides what words mean that's entirely different from what people as a whole have created a word to mean. On one hand you have official language which we learn from each other and are taught the rules of more specifically and on the other we have words that are unofficial such as roguelike that was invented by people who cared about Rogue and recognized games like Rogue that others who cared about Rogue created. Years down the road we have roguelikes made by people who played roguelikes without ever touching Rogue.

As for words "needing" to change I disagree wholeheartedly. Words can and do change, but that there is a need is not something I will agree with. Usually they change either through laziness, diffusion of different cultures, or meddling.

>>muh jews

>Start making and argument.

And it is no longer worth talking to you. Go back to your board.

>>16726868

>You are just overinflating the value of tbc

If I said that turn-based gameplay was the best and only gameplay that there is or should be in any game ever, then you would have a point, but I did not.

>and maybe even rogue itself

How can one overinflate the value of Rogue in regards to games being called roguelikes?

>>16727239

>And it is no longer worth talking to you

If you can't answer a question or even back up your position. Just say so. All you have to do is explain why roguelikes have turn based combat as a core element. You should be able to do that, I even gave you an argument. But if you're going to just bow out because you're clearly trolling I can accept that too.

>>16727239

Because the genre of roguelikes has seen a few more games than rogue itself. Rogue laid out the foundation of roguelikes (hence the name), but is far from being the only game that defines the genre.

Take RTSs for example, the first one was herzog zwei but the genre itself was and is being defined by completely different games.

If you arent allowed to deviate from the original game after 40 fucking years and god knows how many games that managed to be a roguelike or roguelite without tbc, then you are dooming the genre to become 100% repetitive rogue clones and eventually die.

And doing that just because it has "like rogue" in its name is pretty stupid.

>>16727295

Rogue had turn based everything, not just combat, and that is why it is a core element of roguelikes. This has already been said you baiting nigger.

>>16727418

>Because the genre of roguelikes has seen a few more games than rogue itself.

<implying Rogue, the originator, is a roguelike itself now

>Rogue laid out the foundation of roguelikes (hence the name), but is far from being the only game that defines the genre.

It does define the genre. Any game that does something special with Rogue's elements or adds some new elements isn't defining the genre. Such a game can be good or even great, but it isn't defining what makes a game a roguelike.

>If you arent allowed to deviate from the original game after 40 fucking years and god knows how many games that managed to be a roguelike or roguelite without tbc, then you are dooming the genre to become 100% repetitive rogue clones and eventually die.

This is implying that you can't have a roguelike that does something new without ripping out elements that make it a roguelike. You just want to have your cake and eat it too, by classifying games that are not roguelikes but merely inspired by elements from Rogue, calling them roguelikes, but shitting all over the elements of Rogue that such a game didn't use. "This FPS has permadeath and procedurally generated areas so it's a roguelike! it doesn't need to be turn based! Turn based didn't even matter with Rogue it's like old and stuff"

>>16727680

>Rogue had turn based everything, not just combat,

ok sweetie, since you forgot what I posted I'll do it again because typing TBC once seems to trigger you.

>>16726931

>>core elements

>Again, explain why turn based actions are key to roguelikes? I'll even give you a start; I've heard it been said that the necessity of turn based actions in Roguelikes goes hand in hand with how actions are organized. Since everything in the gameworld updates every turn, the player has to make each decision count, which goes along well with the combat focused nature of the genre because sometimes the player has to make decisions while under attack so careful contemplation benefits having infinite time to think about it.

>for a counter argument:

>Real time games just create a different form of decision making process that, while it loses the benefit of infinite time, doesn't stop the player from juggling the myriad systems and items a game may possess. And having far more reactionary situations just adds a different layer of difficulty to a roguelike as opposed to diminishing it. Although it's worth noting that real-time games that are considered roguelikes still have pause functions which allow the player to take a chance to reconsider their options.

Now unless your argument is better than "it has to be 1:1 like rogue and only have what rogue put in it" I think you're done here.

>>16716237

>>16716195

Steam's genre classification system is trash and it makes the store cancer to browse. It was better before Valve got pissy that people tagged games with things like "abandoned" or "false advertising". They enforced a watered-down list of genres and let devs overlook their own tags. When you go to 'strategy' and find CS:GO and Rainbow 6: Siege at the top, the system is beyond worthless.

If you want another worthless tag, the mech tags are populated with every game that has a robot, whether it is playable or not. The Massively Multiplayer tag is just slapped on random games with 2-4 player multiplayer. The adventure tag seemingly has no point at all. The single-player/multiplayer tags are cancerous, because every game on Steam has at least one of them, so Steam will constantly recommend you other single-player/multiplayer games that are not at all similar to anything you've ever played.

tl;dr Steam tags are ridiculously horrible, and actively inhibit people from searching their store. I don't know how they haven't addressed this yet.

>>16716445

>This rogue lite vs rogue like theme has always been the most effective way to incite fighting among the most autistic people in this board

Wrong. People have more autistic fights over loli or GSG.

>>16728824

You fucking faggots, this isn't some competition. The entire point of a genre is to help people find what they are looking for. Calling a fps a rougelike just makes it harder for someone looking a roguelike to find a roguelike. Muddying definitions for the sake of inclusion is asinine and serves no purpose. Your stupid ass argument only argues what real time has to offer to roguelikes, which is irrelevant. What makes a genre is what is understood to define that genre. Your entire argument is pedantic and arbitrary.

>>16729237

>>Steam's tagging doesn't count

Did you reply to the wrong person or did you just read what you wanted to read? The point I made was that it's entirely too simple to tag your game whatever you want and nobody cares or intervenes, even though it has become nearly impossible to find true games of genres now. I'm not sure how you got that conclusion.

Let's play a game. I'll list a bunch of games and you have to sort them into three lists. Roguelikes, Not Roguelikes, and Can't Judge If you haven't played the game or you don't want to commit to an answer. I'll put my answer below. Let's see what autism comes out of this. Without further ado.

-Rogue

-Nethack

-Angband

-Sil

-Binding of Isaac

-Spelunky

-Nuclear Throne

-Beneath Apple Manor

-Civ IV

-Hoplite

-Pixel Dungeon

-Chess

-Call of Duty

-Wazhack

-Unexplored

-Dwarf Fortress

-Unreal World

-Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead

-Minecraft

-Terraria

-Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare

-Space Station 13

-Exanima

-DoomRL

-Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer

-Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Blue Rescue Team

-TOME4

-Caves of Qud

-Ziggurat

-Prey (2017)

-Risk of Rain

-Dead Cells

-Diablo

-Dungeons of Dredmor

-Rogue Legacy

-FTL: Faster Than Light

>>16729313

>Roguelike

-Rogue

-Angband

-Nethack

-Sil

-Pixel Dungeon

-DoomRL

-TOME4

-Caves of Qud

-Dungeons of Dredmor

>Not Roguelike

-Binding of Isaac

-Spelunky

-Nuclear Throne

-Civ IV

-Hoplite

-Chess

-Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare

-Dwarf Fortress

-Unreal World

-C:DDA

-Minecraft

-Terraria

-Space Station 13

-Exanima

-Ziggurat

-Prey (2017)

-Risk of Rain

-Dead Cells

-Diablo

-Rogue Legacy

-FTL: Faster Than Light

>Can't Judge

-Beneath Apple Manor

-Wazhack

-Unexplored

-Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer

-Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Blue Rescue Team

>>16729157

> Your stupid ass argument only argues what real time has to offer to roguelikes, which is irrelevant.

It's not. Not a single person who has said I'm wrong has provided a single argument outside of "it wasn't like that in rogue" for this specific gameplay decision as to why turn based actions are necessary. All I'm asking is that instead of just blindly dismissing this topic, give an actual reason roguelikes have to be turn based. Because like you just said, real time actions DO have something to offer roguelikes so why is it not worth considering works that use real time roguelikes at all?

The problem I have with your logic is this; if I have a game that uses a different perspective but otherwise drags in all the other elements of rogue; proc generation, permadeath, some form of hunger mechanic, item identification, heavy combat emphasis, etc. Why does it stop being both a roguelike in addition to whatever other genre conventions are present? Mutual exclusion is an odd line to draw here because it's not how genre descriptors work for pretty much any other game that mashes together different genres. If Knights in the Nightmare can be both a bullet hell and a tactical RPG, why can't you have a first person Roguelike? Or [genre] + roguelike?

>>16729720

>"it wasn't like that in rogue"

Because nothing else needs to be said, you faggot. Nothing you say is relevant to why you need to muddy definitions.

>>16729788

The irony is that you can make that same claim about games that are considered roguelikes because additional mechanics still fall under the category of "it wasn't like that in rogue". But logical consistency is the last thing I expect from talks about this specific genre.

>>16729788

>i dont need arguments to support my retarded opinion

Why bother trying to argue with people if you cant even explain why you would come to such a retarded conclusion ?

There really is nothing else to be said because there is no reasonable excuse to be so inept at making a single logical point beyond "Its what rogue did reeeeeeeeeeee"

Not to mention that your mindless screeching about muh muddy definitions is completely worthless if you have a plainly wrong definition.

Why can't people just be inclusive? If a game is called a roguelike who are you to question what it identifies as!?

>>16729872

>Not to mention that your mindless screeching about muh muddy definitions is completely worthless if you have a plainly wrong definition.

I just want one of these guys to define rogue like. At the very least if they are going to argue about what features and mechanics are crucial for the genre. Instead I keep getting this nonsense recursive answer that avoids any thought or understanding.

>>16730731

If you have time to come back here and passive agressively ahitpost, maybe explain how turn based actions are a key element of roguelikes. Try using more words than "that's what rogue did". You can do it champ.

>>16715745

>>16715398

>>16715796

The ASCII is incidental; back in the old days we used what we had. If we had 16 bit isometric map tiles then we sure as hell would have used them.

The ACTUAL heart and soul of Roguelike in three steps:

1: you will permadie

2: your permadeath will be completely unfair

3: the unfairness comes from a map generating diceroller that will land on critical-fuckyou sooner or later, especially once you're deeply absorbed into the game and dicerolling constantly

Graphics mean next to nothing in old fashioned games, therefore it isn't important what kind of graphics they are. Text symbols or frame by frame doodles or 3DCG are all equally not-responsible for the actual gameplay experience.

If you want to know who truly departs from the Roguelike genre, that's every single dev trying to make it "fair" or "predictable" or even "stable" because the original point was to be none of the above. The spirit of Rogue is Dungeons and Dragons the randomass arcade game.

>>16729313

Not roguelikes:

>Binding of Isaac

>Spelunky

>Nuclear Throne

>Civ IV

>Hoplite

>Chess

>Call of Duty

>Unexplored

>DF fort mode

>Minecraft

>Terraria

>Space Station 13

>Exanima

>Ziggurat

>Prey

>Risk of Rain

>Dead Cells

>Rogue Legacy

>FTL

Roguelikes:

>Rogue

>Nethack

>Angband

>Sil

>Beneath Apple Manor

>Pixel Dungeon

>DF adventure mode

>Cataclysm

>Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare

>DoomRL

>Mystery Dungeon

>TOME

>Caves of Qud

Can't Judge:

>Wazhack (designed for the sole purpose of starting arguments over whether it counts as a roguelike)

>Unreal World (shares lots of features with traditional roguelikes, but is just different enough that I wouldn't actually call it a roguelike)

I've given up on disscussing rougelikes here since 2015 too many people here want to debate on what the genre is to even play the games

this thread is fucked

I wanted to get into roguelikes with Nethack but from what i'm getting from a guide the earlygame sounds tedious.

>if you level up too quickly enemies will scale up to you, so you must carry your starting pet's ass throughout the dungeons (which are apparently mostly corridors so expect a shitton of displacing) and let it do most of the fighting for you so it levels up, and only make your character fight in self defense for a while

>and even then pray that you don't find some instakill powerful enemy like while doing this

Is this true?

>>16732122

Simple answer: "roguelike is not a genre."

honk if you played a lot of old Angband variants

Tales of Maj'Eyal ←- Tales of Middle Earth ←- PernAngband (best one)

Bringing back possessor class for Maj'Eyal was epic but the one who did so made it too fkn strong.

>>16731999

>If you have time to come back here and passive agressively ahitpost, maybe explain how turn based actions are a key element of roguelikes. Try using more words than "that's what rogue did". You can do it champ.

It limits the player to decision making skills instead of reflexes. It quantifies the rate and possible options that can be taken by both the player and the enemy. The flow of Roguelikes and Rogue is determined by turns and every action either does or does not consume a turn increasing the value of every action, since wasted actions can easily lead to enemies pinning the player in an unwinnable situation (as nubs often complain about RNG most often it is their own stupid decisions and waste of turns that screwed them over.) Real time does not work the same way at all. It is the same as if you reversed the situation concerning a real time game if you made a game supposedly like it, but turn based. The core way the game is played has been changed making it very much not like the game it is supposed to be like.

So, you retarded nigger, there are elements of Rogue such as being turn-based that should not be removed if you still wish to call a game a roguelike. You can change how turns are handled, and many such good roguelikes like Angband do so, but removing turn-based is not an option if a game is to be a roguelike.

You and faggots like you are retarded in the extreme and show how little you understand about the fundamentals of videogames when you don't even understand that removing a core element of a genre from a game removes that game from that genre.

>>16732516

You are just a nutjob and have still not provided a single argument for your laughable position. Ill just dismiss you as insane since you just repeat the same nonsensical sperg-shit over and over again while dodging the actual points made against you.

>>16732516

Shiren is not a roguelike since it doesn't have ASCII graphics like Rogue did, also Rogue did not have multiplayer ergo Shiren is not a roguelike. I would really seriously appreciate it if you would refrain from posting off topic garbage like Shiren in this thread.

>>>/v/16733185

He's back again with his buddy, not to talk about video games, but to get others to engage in his retardation and actively disrupt video game discussion.

>>16716069

shitty graphics are not gameplay you stupid bastard.

>>16715398

So basically the same game with a different skin on top. Why the fuck are people obsessed so much with roguelikes then? They are fun for a bit but end up incredibly tedious and boring

>>16732462

>posts my exact argument

I'm laughing right now. See my rebuttal in that post. A different type of decision making process doesn't take away what makes a game roguelike. Forcing hard decisions is how roguelikes make turn based actions meaningful, moreso than other role playing games. But you can still do this in real time as well.

>there are elements of Rogue such as being turn-based that should not be removed if you still wish to call a game a roguelike

I've played roguelikes like Hyper rogue that don't have anything resembling a hunger mechanic. That's a crucial aspect of roguelike design as well but it's absence doesn't stop games like it from being called roguelike? Why is that I wonder? Because there are things you can omit when making a roguelike while still making the game like rogue. The point is to have enough elements at the end of the design "like rogue", in addition to any new mechanics a game will add, for it to be roguelike.

>It is the same as if you reversed the situation concerning a real time game if you made a game supposedly like it, but turn based

A somewhat new idea is small devs making turn based fighting games. Example is Toribash. Under your logic fighting games can only be realtime and all these new games are anything else but fighting games. Making something like a fighting game turn based lets devs create a new way of thinking about this genre, and lets the usual mentality needed to play a match be applied to a longer timespan as moves can take minutes instead of fractions of seconds. Or can you tell me why those games aren't fighting games now because they aren't in real time?

This is why this is a shit genre term anyways. Of course a game with permadeath, procgen, a form of hunger meter, item identification, but real time is like rogue. Turn based is the norm but it's not the deal breaker.

>>16732516

>Fuck off

The battle cry of the enraged twitter drone.

>>16733619

>I'm laughing right now.

Nah.

>See my rebuttal in that post.

Flailing impotently isn't much of a rebuttal.

>A different type of decision making process doesn't take away what makes a game roguelike.

I already know that you think that the way you play the game isn't important to the structure of the game. You don't need to elaborate further on how retarded you are.

>I've played roguelikes like Hyper rogue that don't have anything resembling a hunger mechanic.

Well it is a good thing hunger isn't a core gameplay element, huh, nigger?

>A somewhat new idea is small devs making turn based fighting games. Example is Toribash. Under your logic fighting games can only be realtime and all these new games are anything else but fighting games.

Except the fighting game genre is board and not based off of a single progenitor game. However, they can call it a fighting game, but logically speaking it would be a tactical game instead that just happens to have one on one fighting.

>This is why this is a shit genre term anyways. Of course a game with permadeath, procgen, a form of hunger meter, item identification, but real time is like rogue. Turn based is the norm but it's not the deal breaker.

Correction: it isn't your deal breaker, because you are a retarded nigger who barely even understands the finer points of gameplay and definitely shouldn't be talking about such things till you get more educated.

>>16733404

The obsession with an incredibly strict definition of roguelike has hit levels of borderline parody. It's on par with claiming Halo isn't an FPS because it has health regeneration or that Duke Nukem 3D isn't an FPS because it allows you to look up, down, crouch and jump. Every game having to fit such a rigid definition results in stagnation and death of the genre.

>>16733669

Whether a roguelike is turn based or not is superfluous.

>>16733646

>Well it is a good thing hunger isn't a core gameplay element

How do you figure that? Hunger is what keeps the player moving forward in search of more food in order to stay alive since you cannot ascend to restore these things in the original rogue. And depending on the roguelike, even if you can go up to resupply that might mean having to fight your way out for guaranteed resources, as opposed to continuing forward for less certain earnings. It also plays into how roguelikes are heavily built around resource management and the juggling of food items, as well as every other item the player comes across makes for some hard decisions depending on the run.

If that's not a core element you're entire thesis about what is or is not a core element in roguelike design is fucked. Care to give me your definition of roguelike as well as all the mechanics you think are core elements?

>but logically speaking it would be a tactical game instead that just happens to have one on one fighting.

Logically speaking you'd call it a turn based fighting game and move on. There's no genre called "that just happens to have one on one fighting" last time I checked. If you wanted to talk about tactical/Strategy games mixed with fighting games, something like Shaman King: Power of Spirit comes to mind as more applicable to those terms.

>>16732200

I got into Roguelikes with Nethack. Just play the game.

>>16732462

What do you think about realtime + pausing as a variation on turnbased. E.g. FTL and Unexplored. Although I don't consider them rls

>>16729830

Consistency implies limitations. When you set limits the creators have to work hard to come up with interesting ideas that bend those limits. For example, grid-based seems like a pretty hard limit but look at Hyperrogue. Or look at the procgen difference between Spelunky and Ultima Ratio Regum.

>>16733651

See my other post: >>16736354

Roguelikes have some of the oldest still worked-on games. Roguelikes are not dying anytime soon. But then again I can already tell you're someone who thinks games are dead unless they have a million players and a new one is released every year. Strictness pushes creators to come up with something interesting if they want to stand out. The boring ones die out. Just because you can't come up with ideas doesn't mean no one else can. Procedural generation has an incredible amount of improvement left. Look at how COGMIND or Brogue improve on the ASCII graphics. The Sci-fi theme has barely been touched in roguelikes. There is so much potential remaining in "strict" roguelikes. Fuck off and go play with your Spelunky

>>16736332

yeah, mutations are real fuckery. Never opt for them if you dont have robust genetics and few spare purifiers

>>16736381

At least I'm disease immune, infection resistant and have free high nightvision.

Rat mutations are actually good if you don't mind being a furfag.

>>16736366

>The Sci-fi theme has barely been touched in roguelikes

Rogue was not Sci-Fi ergo any game that uses a Sci-Fi theme is not a Roguelike.

>>16736425

You might want to get some treatment for that asspain.

>>16736431

Asspain was not in Rogue ergo any game with asspain is not a Roguelike.

>>16736451

>Asspain was not in Rogue

Confirmed for never having played Rogue.

I've just realised this thread isn't even about discussing any roguelike games. The whole point was just roguelike vs roguelike.

Roguelite = Faggot indieshit term for when the devs couldn't come up with a satisfying game loop

See also: "Open-world", "procedural generation"

>>16736715

Now thats shitposting even by the standards of a thread full of people arguing about semantics of video game genres.