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File: ed0e1eb10a99735⋯.png (3.35 MB, 1600x900, 16:9, ClipboardImage.png)

b13da6  No.16224850

Is there any true way to measure one's skill in competitive gaming, or is the whole scene just muscle memory and plain old rote memorization of established situational strategies? Take counter strike for instance, where the main part of the 'skill' comes from simply memorizing map call-outs and flash/smoke grenade throwing positions/angles. The gun-play is very lacking, as it hardly functions as it should and the one in GO is watered down to hell.

There's also games like Starcraft and Street Fighter where muscle memory is key and the game becomes something where the winner isn't decided by who makes the right move, but by who makes the wrong move. One fuck up is all it takes for someone to lose, even if they performed amiably prior to it.

f859c4  No.16225002

Every game and then every genre will require its own standard makeup of what constitutes skill and thus certain types of people will succeed in one genre more than others. RTS pros may not translate into FPS pros, fighting pros may not make it in LoL or DotA. Or perhaps it does take a standard set of skills and success just depends on time you've spent mastering the genre.

What can explain why blacks and asians dominate fighters, and whites RTS? Is it just cultural or do both genres attract different skillets which are varied across races?

Though I have seen pros go pretty far in other genres, handily destroying casuals but never going to pro level in another genres. I'm sure there are one or two exceptions out there but it's rare.


478b20  No.16225043

well, maybe if there was a fighting game that only used special wiimote-like gloves as the controller, then people would have to be good at fighting to some extents to win


fec444  No.16225098

>>16225002

Are you forgetting that starcraft is the national sport of south korea


9dd803  No.16225107

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

That depends on what your definition of 'true challange' or a real way to measure relavent skill in a competitive environment is. Something like video games where the playing field changes radically every few years or so with sequals and similar games of a genre versus established real life sports. Is skill being able to practice for days, week, maybe even months to manipulate a particular meta to such a fine point that no one is equal to you? Is it practicing on maps to memorize stategic areas and points of interest so that even if you're weaker/ the underdog, you can defeat a superior team with better tactics? Is it those who have the ability to turn the metas of choice for every other team on their heads, stomp on the competition, and recreate what it means to play a particular game? Or is it just being able to adapt to a situation the fastest and take opportunities when they make themselves available?

Games that have had consistant, standarized competitive arenas that either get very little or no content development on (with the exception of bug fixes) like Quake, Unreal Tournamnet, Starcraft, Counterstrike, Tetris, Street Fighter, etc., are the tried and true standards when it comes to testing either a teams or individuals skills. This is talking about games that pertain to either the originals or the title with the most prominent 'E-Sports' scene. Something like this doesn't need players to constantly readapt to a new game, since these titles have been around for years, and they can really show off the skills people have aquired by playing the games. If we look at games that get consistant, constant sequals that have an esports scene, or games that get very regular content updates that change the way the games play, like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, League of Legends/ASSFAGGOTS, etc., is it the sign of a good player that he could constantly win in any of the games of now and before, or is a potential sequal too radical of a change to get a good baseline of measuring skill for a team/player?


9dd803  No.16225108

>fuck your body is too long

Lets break this down one point at a time

>Is there any true way to measure one's skill in competitive gaming

Like I said before, depends on what your definiition of true skill is, and where you set the standards for skill, and how long a particular game needs to be around before you can declare a competitive scene is valid. No one could be great at every genre to a competitive level, or even in different games in the same genre, you just need to be aware of what skills you need to succeed playing a game, and go from there.

>or is the whole scene just muscle memory and plain old rote memorization of established situational strategies?

Is this not a true way to measure skill? To have the ability to have full control over your own muscles, memorize how much mouse movement you need to make a 25, 66, or even 160 degree turn in order to make that split second headshot, is this not a measure of skill? Is establishing the most optimized routes to strategic locations of importance, maximizing your chance of success, not a measure of skill? Is practicing for hours on in on these established strategies to a razor's edge not a measure of skill? I would say if you win when teams/individuals are on a, as much as allowed possible in the game environment, level playing field, you have superior skills at that time.

>Take counter strike for instance, where the main part of the 'skill' comes from simply memorizing map call-outs and flash/smoke grenade throwing positions/angles.

Same reasons as the point before, exploiting these positions the most efficient way possible and having a supreme level of awareness over your opponents means the difference between winning and losing. Never let your opponent out maneuver you in any way possible, or exploit any possible angle of attack to get an advantage over you. You will not win if you can't make these judgements, or utilize the tools at your disposal.

>The gun-play is very lacking, as it hardly functions as it should and the one in GO is watered down to hell.

The very definition of gun play is so fucking jank that no one on the planet has any idea what good gun play is, because its all based on an opinion. Granted, this comes from a faggot who came in 2nd and 5th place in two Global Offensive E-Sports tournaments, and I think that the gun play in that game is absolute horse shit. Only measuring it relative to how the environment of the gun play versus itself and other similar games. I can say that quake is the epitome of pure skill with gun play, because you need very well defined reaction timing to win, or I can say that Counter strike or Call of Duty this is just an example not my opinion where placement of your character and getting the first shot in is pure skill with gun play. I guarantee that playing Quake with gun play like a military simulator, or something like Arma 3 with gameplay like quake, would make both of them absolutly terrible to play, even less so for a competitive scene.

>There's also games like Starcraft and Street Fighter where muscle memory is key.

Real life sports is nothing but developing muscle memory. The real difference is these sports utilize the physical endurance aspect of a human, versus just mental fortitude, sleght of hand, and reaction timing with 99.99% of vidya.

>and the game becomes something where the winner isn't decided by who makes the right move, but by who makes the wrong move.

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

>One fuck up is all it takes for someone to lose, even if they performed amiably prior to it.

If one fuck up IS all it takes to lose, either the game is extremely punishing on mistakes, or the mistake was so great that the player/team should not have made the mistake of that magnitude where they lose. Granted, no one is perfect with the ability to have repeatable zero flaws in their play, but exploiting your opponent because of their mistakes, is just utilizing your skill to take opportunities when they arise.


f85520  No.16225130

File: 8cc79b54160c69d⋯.jpg (235.89 KB, 960x960, 1:1, Real Talk.jpg)

Competitive gaming fucking sux!

Tryhards and other faggots only play that shit and Because a game is competitive it never gets any mod support, no communities, elitism based on some gay rank,etc.

You cant measure your skill in a game based on some ELO, ranks or score, even the supposed best players get shit on at random times by random players with RNG systems.


818064  No.16230442

File: 7da52b850ffbfae⋯.jpg (84.69 KB, 750x937, 750:937, nd.jpg)

>>16225130

Just like "professional" sport. Where grown men worship other grown man just become they can handle balls well.That's gay.


656134  No.16230718

Quake (3 specifically) is the only truly balanced competition man has ever or will ever devise.


478b20  No.16230815

>>16225107

>Or is it just being able to adapt to a situation the fastest and take opportunities when they make themselves available?

THAT is skill


a1d6a4  No.16230944

>>16225098

>Starcraft


3a3b44  No.16232252

You are fucking autistic OP.


3ca647  No.16234749

>>16224850

>play fighting game

>complain about having to remember

>none of the people playing do remember anything but matchups


2a28cd  No.16234768

>>16224850

>the winner isn't decided by who makes the right move, but by who makes the wrong move

That's what happens in any high-level competition in any area, you faggot.


09fcf2  No.16234777

File: 1fa94e2877cf77c⋯.gif (18.75 KB, 157x140, 157:140, Adventure_Map_Stronghold_t….gif)

If you're looking for competitive games that reward creativity, try HOMM3 HotA. There's some pre-defined strategies that everyone uses but others are still possible and will give you an advantage if you can execute them well. Pokemon Showdown as well to a certain extent, though newer gens kind of ruined it with all the megas and ultra beasts and shit.


43b7af  No.16234834

>>16234777

>There's some pre-defined strategies that everyone uses but others are still possible

This is literally every competitive video game ever

>ruined it with all the megas and ultra beasts and shit.

That's a funny way to spell 'Lando-T'


d5febf  No.16234876

>>16234834

Lando-T was gen 5, it was very healthygen 5 did feel better despite the pdon tier usage of Ttar


f400a8  No.16234965

>>16225130

>I suck at games so fuck everyone who does not.

>Bunch of factually incorrect rambling to further prove cognitive deficiency.

Look, it's okay to be bad at games and it's okay to enjoy them despite that. However, being bad at a game and bitching about it and the playerbase instead of just playing something different is pretty fucking retarded. Also, pretty much everything you say is incorrect.

A) Competitive players play a game because it's fun for them - it allows them to compete against other people, to enjoy improving and to experience the rush that a win brings. What you are saying is just another 'my taste is superior' pseudo-argument. If you don't like competing, don't play competitive games.

B) Many competitive games have huge communities and a fairly large chunk of them also have casual gamemodes and casual players as well. Just look at CS:GO, LoL, Dota, etc.

A lot of competitive games have mod support, in fact in some cases the most competitive game modes, such as Team Arena Master for some UnrealTournament games, are actually mods. On the opposite side, there are many casual dames which don't have any mod support and any modding is either hard to do, or actively fought against by the publisher/developers - for example 'Fallout' 76.

C) Of course skill can be measured. It's called statistics you dumbass. If you consistently earn more money IRL than your neighbor, you are better at earning money.

If you constantly reach higher score/more frags/whatever than your neighbor, you are better at playing the game.

C) RNG, provided that it isn't 'adjusted' to favor certain group of players, will shit on everyone equally. Knowing how RNG works and finding ways to either circumvent it or minimize its negative effects is also a large part of being skilled at said game.

As a note: Most of the 'toxic' behavior comes from shitters and badz. Majority of good players really do not care most of the time. At the same time though, the whole toxicity discussion is fucking pointless and retarded - competition means emotions, which sometimes leads to bantz and rage. It happens in IRL competitions as well and there is nothing wrong with it. Fuck holding emotions in and giving a fake smile.

The common belief good players are somehow responsible for the moral development of the playerbase is equally laughable garbage that could only come out of concerned suburban moms incapable of actual parenting due to high intake of Xanax, or other soy consuming brain addled commieformia-level faggots.

TL;DR: Stop being a whiny faggot and play what you enjoy. If the chat is 2 bantz 4 u, just turn it off - pretty much every game allows that nowadays.

t. former Top25 EU/Top100 World WoT:B player


cf6f0b  No.16234972

>>16225098

And here I thought getting fucked over by feminists was the national sport of South Korea. They get better at it with every passing year.


09fcf2  No.16235060

>>16234965

Good post. Especially liked this part:

>C) RNG, provided that it isn't 'adjusted' to favor certain group of players, will shit on everyone equally. Knowing how RNG works and finding ways to either circumvent it or minimize its negative effects is also a large part of being skilled at said game.

Pokefags (smogonfags) are prone to whine about RNG because they can't take advantage of it.

>>16234834

Lando sucks but for me something like Charizard X is worse. The unresisted cover, burn immune, great bulk to set up and fucking roost to recover. It's like an ace up someone's sleeve - as long as it's there you can't be sure the game is won.


e6b891  No.16235184

>and the game becomes something where the winner isn't decided by who makes the right move, but by who makes the wrong move.

Every single fight can be summed up that way you faggot.


27fbad  No.16235206

>>16224850

Is chess competitive?

In the same way that csgo pro's memorize maps, where to smoke/flash, etc chess master have to memorize all kinds of standard openings and other actions.

If chess is competitive, then csgo is competitive.

In fact, the standardized maps, the predictable recoil patterns, etc are likely all reasons why csgo has such long term staying power in a hyper competitive esports world.

It's also likely why SC has stayed so strong as a competitive esports RTS, despite game alike COH being arguably more engaging and more "tactical", the rng on weapon hits, penetration, unit AI, etc are all factors that reduce the interest in it as a competitive game.

>inb4 poker (fill in blank) is random

Yes, randomness can be successful in a competitive environment, and I personally have no issues with randomness in competitive games, but despite my opinions that rng is okay in competitive games, it's clear that pro's (and the viewers in general) tend to prefer watching games with as little rng as possible.


27fbad  No.16235215

>>16234965

>As a note: Most of the 'toxic' behavior comes from shitters and badz. Majority of good players really do not care most of the time. At the same time though, the whole toxicity discussion is fucking pointless and retarded - competition means emotions, which sometimes leads to bantz and rage. It happens in IRL competitions as well and there is nothing wrong with it. Fuck holding emotions in and giving a fake smile.

Absolutely. The worst communities I've experienced are the ones where their game caters to casuals. Lol & Overwatch are two of the biggest that come to my mind in this. While there can be the argument that at high levels of play, these games can be competitive, the nature of the games having a relatively low skill floor means that scrubs tend to think they're better than they are, which inevitably leads to them making dumb mistakes and then blaming their teams, or even more commonly, watching their team mates play and commenting about it, instead of focusing on their own play. Games like these allow the scrub to gain the basic knowledge to play without much effort, and then, being a scrub, they inevitably fail to improve their own game and instead blame others for their losses.

This isn't unique to Lol or OW, but it's especially common in these games in my experience.


9e1457  No.16235228

>>16225098

National sport of Korea is Milking Reparations from superior people, they keep coming close second to Israel, but I feel like they might take #1 soon.

>>16225130

>even the supposed best players get shit on at random times by random players with RNG systems.

Why don't all DotA 2 teams pick Chaos Knight, Phantom Assassin and Ogre Magi to win by RNG?


211e0c  No.16235258

>>16235215

I heard about that, though I never played Overwatch and the last time I played LoL was very early beta stage. I found it kinda boring, then found a way to stack items in a way where I would recover HP faster than anyone could kill me and more mana than any skill used up, I'd go around fucking shit up for a day or two, but it got boring again and I just couldn't be bothered anymore. I find MOBAs in general are really boring for me. Anyways, on topic - no idea what the community is right now aside from random posts on various sites, which seem to often mention the fact the average player is really fucking bad and the pro scene is dominated by gooks for the most part.


521475  No.16255459

it must be really pretty show. In general, I also like such a competitions… to watch e-sports and even make a bet against someone on equal terms, with the same odds. So viewing becomes much more interesting and more intriguing. If someone interested i used https://www.bookmakeradvisor.com/uk/bonus/vernons/ and I got both well spent time and favor. Esport the best!


f4f2c4  No.16273307

>>16224850

to summarize every response to you in this thread: no

>>16234777 (checked)

try visiting fullderp when theres a champ (or better yet, call champ yourself) and youll see just how completely fucked "competetive" pokemon is


5d5927  No.16282714

>>16235206

I was gonna say this. A game is either skill-based like chess, random like a slot machine, or a mix of the two like poker. When we're talking about heavily skill-based games, then it's pretty much always going to come down to memorization and practice. Any game with consistent rules will eventually result in consistent strategies, doesn't matter what game you play.


4ec252  No.16286576

>>16234777

>Pokémon

>competitive

>>16273307

This, it is not UBs or Megas that fucked up the game, it is smogon trying to force an inherently uncompetitive game into a competitive one.

>>16282714

>When we're talking about heavily skill-based games, then it's pretty much always going to come down to memorization and practice

Or maybe that just means it isn't a game of skill at all.


544406  No.16286609

>>16282714

Chess isn't really "skill" though. It's so easy that simple computers can beat the best human players now.

In fact, I'd say that poker is much more based on skill because the random element is meaningless next to the bluffing ability of the players. Professional players can and HAVE won hands when holding a deuce/seven off-suit (mathematically worst possible hand). There's no computer that can do that because computers can't read human faces that well or make judgement calls based on a gut instinct rather than objective logic.

All video games are just smoke and mirrors, anyway. What you see on the screen isn't what's actually happening in the code. Shooters, for example, are little more than hooking up the players to reflex meters and awarding the win to whoever gets the faster score. Most engagements boil down to who shoots first, so there is some strategy involved with map and situational awareness, but in the end it's nothing but quick reflexes and accuracy which is largely hand-eye coordination and thousands of hours of practice. But then refer to the chess example: most scrubs with aimbot can beat good players, which means that once again it's "so easy a computer can do it".


5c60d0  No.16286612

>>16235228

No one tops Israel mate


5c60d0  No.16286613

>>16273307

L A N D O


721353  No.16286790

File: 2dd13f91de5ef90⋯.webm (6.15 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, CSGO Nova ace and a 1on4 ….webm)

File: 5c3266b1d3f4f73⋯.webm (7.49 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, ;_;.webm)

>>16224850

>Take counter strike for instance, where the main part of the 'skill' comes from simply memorizing map call-outs and flash/smoke grenade throwing positions/angles.

Well if it's that easy why don't you participate in the next tournament and cash in on the millions? Or let me ask it this way, what rank do you have in cs:go? Let me guess, you could have the highest rank but you don't because it's "not worth your time".

Predicting enemy movement and shooting enemies you can't see yet (e.g. people hiding behind smoke or thin walls) is also part of the game. But you obviously don't know about those aspects of the game. You are probably the kind of guy who get's killed and then blames it on random bullshit like memorizing some stupid pattern, yet you are not able to do it yourself.

Same with shotguns. They are shit, gay as fuck in every game but if you are good with them you can make them work. You pick up a shotgun and kill some noob. To humiliated noob spergs out about how you use a noob gun, something so easy to use every one can kill with it. But when THEY pick up the shotgun to prove how easy it is to use it they immediately die without getting a single kill.

OP when everyone else uses it, underpowered and weak when you use it.

>The gun-play is very lacking, as it hardly functions as it should and the one in GO is watered down to hell.

The gunplay in cs:go is bad, and everyone agrees with that. The only reason why people moved to cs:go was because 1.6 tournaments didn't get sponsored anymore and Valve put all the money into cs:go. But the gunplay in 1.6 is godlike and the best to this day.

Unlike in other games it actually makes sense. Well… you have two kind of games, arena shooters where your weapons are accurate and make sense, and bullshit games like battlefield where your weapons spray in a random pattern and you end up having to depend in luck. Why do you think all those BR games use that method? This way a retarded 9 year old can get a kill by luck too.

cs gunplay is good because it follows rules and patterns you can learn. You can single tab (if you tab to fast your weapon get's inaccurate) or learn the patterns. But guess what, in 1.6 every weapon has several spray patterns and unless you can recognize them you can't just spray people down.

>There's also games like Starcraft and Street Fighter where muscle memory is key and the game becomes something where the winner isn't decided by who makes the right move, but by who makes the wrong move. One fuck up is all it takes for someone to lose, even if they performed amiably prior to it.

Punishing others for their wrong moves is also a skill.

Unreal Tournament, Counter Strike and Dota are the best competitive video games out there. RTS games are good too but the communities are too small to pick good games.


95c6cd  No.16286895

Competitive gaming has literally never been about skill.

It's a cash making racket.


6b325e  No.16286932

>>16286895

Why aren't you making money if you're so good?


0666c4  No.16286944

File: bc9155bbdba704b⋯.gif (2.95 MB, 237x329, 237:329, 1381628092462.gif)

>>16286790

>>16286932

>become esports if u think u can money

this argument will never not be retarded

i can hold cash prizes for throwing shit at a wall and the same arguments are applied

its time to admit that your mainstream pubstomp simulators are garbage


40c57a  No.16286950

File: cb13e73acc1c843⋯.jpeg (31.71 KB, 538x391, 538:391, cb13e73acc1c843aa146ecd18….jpeg)

OP is a fag who doesnt account for all the possible mind game scenarios


721353  No.16286966

>>16286944

>i can hold cash prizes for throwing shit at a wall

You gonna pay 10 mil to the winner of your tournament? Also, playing video games is not the same as throwing shit against the wall. You probably play video games yourself. Your logic is fucking retarded.


0666c4  No.16286976

>>16286966

the words of a casual with runny shits

i bet you arent even on the international shit throwing rankings

or the shit posting as i like to call them


09fcf2  No.16286985

>>16273307

>try visiting fullderp when theres a champ (or better yet, call champ yourself) and youll see just how completely fucked "competetive" pokemon is

I was a fullderper for a long time. Think it proves my point, since you could beat smogonfags with a team of shitmons (if it was well made).


4ec252  No.16287154

An ideal game of skill (or close to it) is one where randomization is implemented but does not yield either side an advantage, as ultimately a player can play the probabilities as carefully as possible and still get screwed over by bad luck. I don't know how feasible this would be to design. An immediate thought of something close would be chess where both players pieces are randomized but in the same way. While that could still theoretically be memorized, if both sides are human and the board is as randomized as possible it should add sufficient complexity to stop memorization. The only gap that still remains at the point is the fact that the game must be played in turns. Typically chess gives advantage to the player going first, though in a randomized game it could favor black instead, but even so the RNG would still be showing favor.


5877ac  No.16287255

File: 8c4523090f3b531⋯.png (2.55 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, scam.png)

>>16286944

>this argument will never not be retarded

How so?

DotA 2 is completely free to play, surely you'd climb to top brackets and get picked up by a team.

So is CS:GO where the same applies.

Go grab that 11 million dollars.


f45fa5  No.16287294

Is Dota 2 actually fun though? I played it for three hours, and while the characters were pretty interesting, the people I was playing with were far from it.


c63860  No.16287306

File: 892621201854b2b⋯.webm (2.6 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, we don't talk anymore.webm)

>>16287294

dota is played better with friends

going trihard solo from get go might be too painful for average casual


f45fa5  No.16287317

>>16287306

But I don't have friends, and I don't see how not wanting every match to have at least three leavers is tryharding.


c63860  No.16287375

File: 6c0be8b598cae08⋯.gif (1.61 MB, 400x400, 1:1, pa.gif)

>>16287317

>how not wanting every match to have at least three leavers is tryharding

what did you expect

you're playing in the same bracket with people that either never played before or smurfing

since you can't surrender players with weak mental will rather just leave the game then try

also, you're locked away from ranked, the only game mode people take seriously

there's nothing but pain and misery until you're calibrated on rating you belong


5877ac  No.16287402

>>16287317

>not wanting every match to have at least three leavers is tryharding.

>not wanting free gold and not having dead weight on your team

git gud.


91d05c  No.16287415

File: 8e42b569c9bf495⋯.gif (1.67 MB, 612x612, 1:1, 8e42b569c9bf495a8ca36ed970….gif)

>>16224850

What about winning consistently? That's a good measure of how good you are at the game

>>16287317

I'll help you get out of hell ranks if you want, I used to play on what they call now legend and I got bored of all my other games

>Is Dota 2 actually fun though

It definitely is, but only if the game if you're winning or the game is balanced player wise. Nothing wrong with losing or having a tough match, but playing for 40 minutes in a game where you know from the first 5 minutes you are going to lose is what makes people quit the game, which happens quite often in solo queue


467fa7  No.16287507

>>16287415

>but playing for 40 minutes in a game where you know from the first 5 minutes you are going to lose is what makes people quit the game, which happens quite often in solo queue

This is why I quit, matching players based on skill seemed like a low priority in their system. Most of the time I got put with retards or people clearly above my own skill, making it feel like I was rarely able to truly affect the outcome.

I'm fine with either winning or losing if the game is balanced resulting in a fun back and forth, but losing because your team is utterly retarded or winning because some people on your team have upwards of 10x more played matches in the game just takes away all enjoyment.


708ee5  No.16304404

>>16282714

A game is either abstract with perfect information and no pseudo-randomness, or it's the opposite. Everything else falls somewhere in between. For a game to have a perfect information design, it would have to be played in turns. So either full strategy (chess, reversi/othello, go), tactics (most fighting/FPS games) or full luck (bckgammon) the main factor that leads to a victory.

>>16286609

>It's so easy that simple computers can beat the best human players now.

It's not that chess is easy, otherwise the game would have been weakly solved a while ago, it's just that chess AI has been a thing for long enough that any program can beat a GM at any time.




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