66bcd3 No.16196760
Are Igavanias as deep as Metroid games? Obviously they took Super Metroid as a template for basic design but are they as intricate when it comes to not only exploration and level design but combat? Are SotN or the DS Castlevania games (either since they're so similar) in the same league as Super, Fusion, ZM, etc.?
7fa48b No.16196782
243bd8 No.16197025
In my opinion the leveling system is inferior to the upgrade system.
e17350 No.16197035
They are called Metroidvania for a reason. They are not metroid except in maybe level design but nothing more. They are their own thing, and so far only actual castlevania games after SOTN are truly Metroidvanias. Metroid clones being called metroidvanias is just a meme that makes it hard to actually find an actual metroidvania like Valdis Story. And it makes me angry.
>>16197025
Hardly. Metroidvanias don't rely in just leveling system but variety of equipment and even abilities.
Upgrades are boring and limited to life or permanent combat upgrades. It's linear progression. Not saying metroidvanias are not linear unless you count sequence breaking faggotry, but collecting different abilities that are not only there for progression reasons is way more interesting.
Sage for shit thread.
79c3da No.16197036
>>16197025
THIS
Metroid games require skill to beat quickly. But for Igavanias, you can cheese through them by being overleveled and grinding.
e17350 No.16197051
>>16197036
This is what makes me think that faggots with these opinions never played metroidvanias.
Even by doing a lv1 run the games are still easy, just tedious. They are fundamentally different. You don't play metroidvanias for skills, faggot.
a2fde4 No.16197052
>>16197036
>This game series requires skill to beat quickly!
>But you can beat this other game very slowly if you just grind!
…Doesn't that imply that if you want to beat it without grinding (that is, quickly) you'd need more skill than by doing it slowly? You might as well say
>Igavania games need skill to be beaten quickly! But for Metroids, you can cheese through them by finding all the tanks and expansions.
ee121b No.16197065
>>16197025
I agree.
Leveling makes it very hard to balance a game. Even in RPGs it causes trouble because you often level too fast/slowly. Guild Wars Factions and later were good because of the near-lack of the stupid gimmick of leveling.
There is a sense of reward from leveling, but for an action-based game with plenty of other ways to grow it hurts more than helps.
99b7de No.16197078
>>16197051
I really hope that invert skill isn't gimmicky and they really built the level design around its usage instead of maybe the occasional optional chest or something like that. Squandering such a cool skill with so much potential like that would be depressing.
243bd8 No.16197081
>>16197035
You could just get the best of both worlds by putting more emphasis on equipment and ditching the leveling system altogether, not necessarily forcing only a bunch of permanent weapon upgrades, just don't do the same thing Axiom Verge did when 80% of the optional weapons are shit and even late in the game you can't breeze through earlier areas of the game.
f83de3 No.16197097
>>16197035
They're exactly the same genre. The only difference is the presence or absence of RPG elements. Personally, I think the RPG elements make the game worse by making it inherently too easy.
e17350 No.16197106
>>16197078
Unlikely. Same with this.
>>16197081
I do agree with you. The leveling system was always just there. Still, permanent weapon upgrades are shit too and, again, it makes everything linear with little to no options outside of shit sequence breaking.
>>16197097
>Crash is the same genre as diablo because they share a similar perspective
Your argument is shit.
99b7de No.16197112
>>16197097
I think upgrade tanks and the like make the game worse by making it inherently too easy
243bd8 No.16197118
>>16197106
All around I think is just easier to not pick up the usual life upgrades if you don't have a leveling system and just implement a good amount of alternate equipment aside from the obligatory exploration skills/equipment and that's it.
79c3da No.16197143
>>16197052
>But for Metroids, you can cheese through them by finding all the tanks and expansions
If you waste time looking for extra tanks and stuff, you likely won't get the best ending in games like Super Metroid. Speedrunning it isn't a self-imposed challenge. The devs specifically made it a requirement to assess certain content within the game. Whether you're skilled enough or not to get the best ending is up to you.
Meanwhile, Igavanias are a cakewalk to unlock all their content. Just be overleveled and voila. You're oneshotting enemies easily.
54db87 No.16197154
>>16196782
I got nostalgic for the pre-March 2018 days and came back to check up.
<lul Igavanias r liek castevania but wif da neccessary "quality of lief" eempruvmints nut leik da HURD NES gaems
Big mistake. Cuckchan, 9gag, and KYM all fucking ruined this place. Fugging pretenders who spout "git gud" and "brainlet" verbally like it makes them automatically cool because Anitwitter uses them from time to time, but just play the meme of the month because (((Sam Altman))) told them to and tremble at using normalfag.
1222ae No.16197180
>>16196760
Not really. SoTN, the pinnacle search action game every jizzes over can be broken due to the rpg leveling mechanic. Discovering upgrades are better than stats and randomly leveling up from exp.
Shame Metroid is fucking dead.
e17350 No.16197219
>>16197118
Except that's not it. That's the core different metroidvanias have from basic metroid, collecting items, or souls, or glyphs, etc etc. "Skill" is irrelevant, if you want skill based gameplay play metroid or classicvanias.
>>16197143
Do you understand you get the best ending for collecting everything AND doing it in a short time, right? Of course you don't, faggot.
>>16197154
This. Despite your tumblr pic.
99b7de No.16197223
>>16197143
>Speedrunning it isn't a self-imposed challenge
So you have to speedrun to beat the game then?
c08e5a No.16197234
>>16197219
>Do you understand you get the best ending for collecting everything AND doing it in a short time, right?
This is only true for Metroid: Zero Mission and Metroid Fusion. For Metroid 1, 2, Super, and Samus Returns, it's strictly based on time spent playing the game. For Prime 1, 2, 3, and Other M, it's based on items collected.
79c3da No.16197239
>>16197219
I wasn't talking to you, faggot. The other guy implied why can't you just play Super Metroid slowly. I told him that if he wasted too much time, he would more likely get a lesser ending.
99b7de No.16197245
>>16197239
You can play SM as slow as you want, best ending isn't mandatory.
e17350 No.16197248
>>16197239
Still a shitty gameplay design. Speedrunning is for faggots and it is in no way any indication of skill. You're basically justifying timed gameplay which is always shit.
79c3da No.16197300
>>16197248
>speedrunning is in no way any indication of skill
Observably false. If speedrunning a game well was an activity that took minimal effort ("no skill"), then beating Super Metroid in under 3 hours (requirement for getting the best ending) should be easy for anyone to do, right? And yet, many gamers observably still struggle to unlock it themselves.
e17350 No.16197318
>>16197300
>should be easy for anyone to do, right?
It is.
Speedrunning is only tedious because a minimum mistake means you're fucked, so it's no different from lv1 runs in metroidvanias, and both suffer from a shit design in that regard. It's not "hard", it's just that nobody wants to waste time in an otherwise enjoyable game. In fact, who the fuck rushes enjoyment?
The whole concept of speedrunning is retarded. Also, you can in fact finish the game under 2 hours with all items.
df169f No.16197328
In these games, I don't like number obsession bullshit, but also don't like becoming the same in the end regardless of choices. I would just take SoTN's model, remove exp, and have equipment with more drastic changes, plus carry limits so you're not just fucking with menus to use whatever's best in the moment. And also make it hard enough that you beg for upgrades instead of worrying that they'll make things too easy.
99b7de No.16197362
>>16197300
>Observably false.
Yeah man wiggling against a wall to go out of bounds and reach the end of the game in less than five minutes sure is skillful as hell.
e17350 No.16197402
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16197328
Embed related.
>plus carry limits so you're not just fucking with menus to use whatever's best in the moment
Retarded, you;d either have to drop them or store them somewhere else.
7c39cd No.16197459
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
I don't think the castlevanias hold a candle to level design(more in the technical than the visual perspective) . What they do stand out in, is in the amount of items, playstyles, additional modes and music. Metroid feels built from the ground up knowing what it wanted to be and excels at that, Castlevania threw all kinds of things up on the board, not all of them work as well as others, but it all comes together to make a good, enjoyable game.
OoE has the best complete soundtrack next to SotNs. Prove me wrong.
a4b758 No.16197662
>>16197219
It's okay to riff on tumblr given how dumb their userbase is, but occasionally you can find really good drawfag. Used to be the best place to find fetish junk until they bent the knee to their new Verizon overlords.
5a8d94 No.16197855
>>16196760
The one feature that pushes a game into Eternal God Tier is absorbing weapons from every new monster. And Metroid doesn't.
5a8d94 No.16197862
>>16197154
You don't care about quality of life because you're a teen, who got all the games already available from the start. So for you, it's a matter of picking the best and hardest one.
You have no concept that actual gamers had to replay the first titles for years, over and over, and so they actually appreciated any kind of new feature. Don't answer: I'm not joking when I say you can't understand, it is literally impossible until you hit 45.
e17350 No.16197936
>>16197862
>who got all the games already available from the start. So for you, it's a matter of picking the best and hardest one.
That's called pirating games.
>You have no concept that actual gamers had to replay the first titles for years
>Gamers
>Reddit spacing
I-is this elaborated bait?
e688ac No.16197945
>>16197035
Surely it makes more sense to call Metroidvanias 'search action' games instead
e17350 No.16197953
>>16197945
Not really, metroidvanias is a nice term. It's just that every fucking games that clones metroid and even lacks a leveling or inventory system is called metroidvania.
3335b1 No.16197961
>>16197953
It's a stupid term and your silly reddit reaction image doesn't change that. Exploration platforner makes much more sense.
e17350 No.16197964
>>16197961
It's castlevania with metroid elements. And you are a faggot.
3d5aef No.16197970
>>16197964
Who is this sploosh loosh?
e17350 No.16197978
>>16197970
I don't remember, I took it from some doujin where they play basketball and the girl is really tall, but don't remember the name.
3d5aef No.16197984
>>16197978
>posts crop
>"I don't remember"
e6e858 No.16198051
No, Igarashi is a hack who across six iterations of the same shit still couldn't figure out how to balance his games. Metroid Fusion is also a piece of shit, but to say that any Metroidvania comes anywhere close to the tight design of Super Metroid is absolutely laughable.
a9aba7 No.16198466
>>16198051
super metroid is the worst metroid
91ca5c No.16198515
>>16198466
are you pretending Other M doesn't exist?
0bfd96 No.16198751
>>16197106
>the only thing metroid and castlevania games share is they are 3rd person camera angles
You from reddit, bud?
90b102 No.16198773
eb6f14 No.16198792
e17350 No.16199054
>>16198751
Go ahead and prove me wrong. Not even progression is the same.
76cf10 No.16199193
>>16196760
>are they as intricate when it comes to not only exploration and level design but combat
Absolutely not. The level design especially. There's a reason there are so many castlevania games and barely any metroids. Coz castlevanias are shit out with relative ease and lack of attention to detail.
e6e858 No.16199242
>>16199193
>There's a reason there are so many castlevania games and barely any metroids
There is, and maybe the difficulty of good level design is part of it. But it's not the only explanation. The other issue is that, like many other people at Nintendo, those responsible for the Metroid franchise are pretentious fart-sniffing assholes who think video games aren't worth making unless they do something innovative. Consequently, no sequels for you. Konami in contrast has never had that problem.
a9aba7 No.16199273
cf42ff No.16199333
>Metroid games
>Deep
Backtracking isn't fucking deep by a longshot.
e6e858 No.16211225
>>16199333
Nice meme. All the best Metroid games feature very little actual backtracking.
1e0c85 No.16211285
Exploration in Metroid games is quite boring. In Super Metroid, the whole game is filled with secret walls and passages. Because they're obligatory to enter, you expend a LOT of time shooting at walls or setting bombs randomly, moving like a snail instead of doing more fun things.
The same happens with other games in the series I have played. You're like an inspector doing his dull job, not an explorer.
d32928 No.16212205
>>16197984
[Yokoshima Nikki] 1 ON 1 de Mechakucha H Shita Hanashi
>>16197984
the worst kind of subhuman
46cae8 No.16212237
>>16197862
>22 and fully understand this concept
Stop pretending you're special just because you're an old fuck
775708 No.16213250
>>16197154
Who are you quoting?
509d8e No.16213503
>>16211285
This is how it felt to beat Kirby Robobot. I felt obligated to avoid warp stars and backtrack constantly, "just in case" so I could find secrets and not have to redo levels / play them twice
3824df No.16221768
>>16197248
>You're basically justifying timed gameplay which is always shit.
Timed gameplay, much less optional timed gameplay is not shit. For shorter games that use timers it's basically telling players to pay attention through their first run for where items and locations are; and then apply that knowledge on your second playthrough to shave off time.
Stuff like OG Resident Evil 2 were good for that. Played it recently after a number of years and took a Claire A run at 4 hours 20 minutes, and turned that into a 2 hour 50 minute Leon B because I'd remembered the layout of the police station and what keys led to where.
People who complain about timed gameplay are the kinds of people who either don't want to Git gud when it comes to the optional challenges of timed gameplay. Like getting better endings or unlocking items for good conduct. And/or they are the kinds of people who complain about games like Dead Rising or Majora's Mask for not letting them faff about if they care about progressing the story even though those time restrictions are in support of the tone of the game.
0b7c15 No.16221849
>>16221768
>Dead Rising or Majora's Mask
The time restrictions helped the designers to make it fun to fuck around in though, since they had to make the world feel alive to make every minute you play entertaining.
3824df No.16222066
>>16221849
>The time restrictions helped the designers to make it fun to fuck around in though,
I agree, that didn't stop people from bitching about DR so much that time restrictions got removed. Majora's Mask is a design Nintendo hasn't revisited although the Pikmin games would later use time restrictions to great effect. And it's a shame because now MM is the hipster game of choice for the franchise.
dce9ed No.16222174
>>16197318
>Speedrunning is only tedious because a minimum mistake means you're fucked, so it's no different from lv1 runs in metroidvanias, and both suffer from a shit design in that regard.
<Racing games are tedious because a minimum mistake means you're fucked, so it's no different from throwing a blue shell and taking the lead, and both suffer from a shit design in that regard.
<Fighting games are tedious because a minimum mistake means you're fucked, so it's no different from button mashing, and both suffer from a shit design in that regard.
<Rhythm games are tedious because a minimum mistake means you're fucked, so it's no different from playing an actual instrument, and both suffer from a shit design in that regard.
dce9ed No.16222212
>>16221768
>Timed gameplay, much less optional timed gameplay is not shit. For shorter games that use timers it's basically telling players to pay attention through their first run for where items and locations are; and then apply that knowledge on your second playthrough to shave off time.
Isn't "timed gameplay" also a concept that started in the arcades to tell the player to GET GOOD at the game they were playing?
54f0ec No.16222216
Metroid is extremely overrated. The only good one was Super Metroid and most of that is due to atmosphere and music. The 3D games are a joke and yet another example of how nintendo fans will lap up anything even if its is an extreme departure with nothing in common with the previous entries other than surface level shit like characters and story.
3824df No.16222229
>>16222212
>Isn't "timed gameplay" also a concept that started in the arcades to tell the player to GET GOOD at the game they were playing?
Arcade games are hit and miss with this. Timers are also a way to limit how long someone can play the game, as well as a means to potentially fuck someone out of quarters so they have to put in more.
Racing Games are mostly good about this since time limits emphasize speed. Same with games like Crazy Taxi where going fast from place to place rewards the player and also discourages poor play since your run will end sooner.
dce9ed No.16222255
>>16222229
>going fast from place to place rewards the player and also discourages poor play
Okay, so, with that in mind, why are there some fags in this thread that think having a game, that rewards the player based on how quickly they complete the title, is a bad thing?
60d77a No.16222265
>>16213250
Learn to read, you dumb fucking reddit nigger.
60d77a No.16222266
08827d No.16222515
>>16222255
>is a bad thing?
There is no explanations given. They are focused on the fringe of speedrunning which is breakneck speeds and not just having a personal best and meeting a modest goal.
That being said; I know people who don't like time limits don't like them because it makes them aware of how poorly they performed. Having a time card and ranking at the end of the game is kind of like salt in the wounds. That and being told to replay the game under tighter parameters is going to turn off some players.
e73e96 No.16222835
97ac1a No.16224394
9da932 No.16224687
>>16221768
Majora's Mask is the worst 3D zelda.
ea481c No.16224743
>>16224687
Is it truly worse than the DS ones?
99b7de No.16224782
>>16197953
>metroidvanias is a nice term
It's a horrendously stupid term that doesn't even apply properly to games that get lumped into that genre. It also won't make any goddamn sense to someone who hasn't played Metroid or Castlevania unlike other proper genre names like First Person Shooter which get the point across nicely. Search Action is superior and I'm so glad it's gaining traction.
e17350 No.16225472
>>16224743
Yes. Also, only Phantom Hourglass was honestly bad. Spirit Tracks expanded on a fun concept, like controlling Zelda as an armor. The transportation system is still tedious, but not as bad as PH.
>>16224782
>It's a horrendously stupid term that doesn't even apply properly to games that get lumped into that genre
You should fucking read all my post, idiot. That's the problem with the games lumped within the term, not the term itself. Half of those games are only metroid clones instead of proper metroidvanis with little exceptions like Valdis Story.
>Search action
Really fucking stupid. Also, if you haven't played metroid nor castlevania you should start there so that people is probably worthless.