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File: b6da1b625a66ab9⋯.jpg (97.3 KB, 640x360, 16:9, Untitled.jpg)

6e1986  No.15653899

What would you say are the ingredients that make for a memorable (in the good sense) boss fight? Besides the difficulty, what is it that makes a boss not only fun but interesting, from a gameplay standpoint or otherwise?

b83505  No.15653927

>>15653899

That's a good question, for me it has to be hard and or at the very lest memorable.


5d8abd  No.15653933

>>15653899

It would be easier to say what it does not take to turn a boss fight into a good boss fight.

>Antagonist that you like or at least like to hate?

>Music matching the intended pace of the fight

>How does the boss fight act in terms of closure for the chapter of the game that it ends

>Does the game encourage or force you to use new weapons/mechanics it gave to you over the course of the level

>Does the death of the boss have an impact on other events?

>Does the boss keep you on your toes? Are there mechanics preventing to attack, hide behind a pillar and heal, attack again, and so forth?

Et cetera, et cetera.


e9a926  No.15653950

>>15653899

It should test the player on everything he has learnt thus far. Easiest to accomplish is game progression is tied to earned gadets or abilities, and these work differently against each boss.


3fd11f  No.15653965

>>15653899

>Besides the difficulty, what is it that makes a boss not only fun but interesting, from a gameplay standpoint or otherwise?

It must be a huge fucking obstacle to the game's progression.


fe6c74  No.15653971

File: a8bd14f1b964d95⋯.jpg (73.49 KB, 640x561, 640:561, 1507745408001.jpg)

Climax in a variety of ways: from story wise to mechanic wise. Think about every Zelda boss, they represent the highest expression of the dungeon's gimmick. Combination of more mechanics is also encouraged but has to fit thematically: it's reasonable to think that the final boss fight of the game will make you use all the things the game has taught you.

To say it in a general way just make it the best ending you can. It doesn't matter if you neglect some of aspects. If the ending is very good story wise people will be willing to overlook mediocre gameplay. If the ending is really smart with the gameplay people will be willing to overlook shitty story endings.

Yo can also try to impact the player by shitting in everything you have taught him. Just make it a rhythm minigame or a racing section just for the lols. Could be really good or people could be making fun of your game the next 10 years.


b83505  No.15654246

File: 6aad197aa00383c⋯.jpg (71.79 KB, 800x598, 400:299, He's_right_you_know.jpg)


550414  No.15654437

Look at DMC3 for good boss fights, mostly at least. The Vergil fights are especially great examples of what to do with a boss fights.


ed764f  No.15654494

>>15653950

Nah, if you do this you end up having each boss require their own set of skills and once you beat them you can just forget about everything you learned to beat them until the pre-final boss where they throw every boss/every boss mechanic against you in a gauntlet.


f647cb  No.15654745

>>15653950

Was coming in here to basically say this.


3268b5  No.15654929

File: 02db2caeb649ca5⋯.jpg (50.61 KB, 640x480, 4:3, Gunther1.jpg)

>>15653899

Context. Why is the boss being fought.

Gunther Hermann's boss fight in DX1 has a lot of buildup because he's been essentially hunting the player throughout the game because you murdered Anna Navarre There's a ton of buildup to this fight. It also fits well with the game thematically since Gunther is an older model and was already somewhat jealous of the player because you're a new and improved flashy cyborg. Later after you kill him you talk to Walton Simons and he admits he only sent him to try to take you out because he was sick of him whining. It's one of the more memorable story moments in the game as a result. Especially since you can bypass his fight entirely by finding his killphrase


6c07b2  No.15654934

>>15653899

A boss.


0fceed  No.15654943

This should just be an Alien Soldier thread


3894fb  No.15655079

>>15654929

I'M NOT A MACHI-


f0ad9f  No.15655103

File: 877ab8cdad94716⋯.png (778.25 KB, 669x573, 223:191, 877ab8cdad947169156b8087a0….png)

>>15655079

Sticks and stones


1ef153  No.15655237

File: 739952ea429e8e4⋯.jpg (483.02 KB, 2048x1448, 256:181, Globglogabgalab dark souls….jpg)

Challenging, but not being bullshit or unfair to the point that I get frustrated trying to learn the patterns. Instant trash if there's any sort of long, un-skippable scene in front of it like a cutscene or walk back towards the boss (where nothing happens like a hallway or staircase, the way Souls games do it is fine because that requires actual effort). Ideally good pacing, and a feeling like the fight actually matters and isn't just an enemy that's bigger and more difficult. Music and visuals working together is pretty essentially to make it memorable, and it's absolutely god-tier if they time up to part of the fight as well.


782515  No.15655399

>>15653950

Related to this, a boss fight should not fuck with existing gameplay to an unreasonable extent. When entire mechanics can get shat on by a boss (for example, a boss being immune to conditions when conditions were a completely viable style of gameplay up to that point with lots of skills that use or cause them), the boss needs to be redesigned. Bosses that require a unique approach using the mechanics are ok. Bosses that simply invalidate the mechanics are not.

I'm thinking of Dark Messiah in particular here, where a stealthy player can come up to the boss and cut his throat and then the game's like "FUCK YOU", he turns invulnerable and you get stuck in a non-stealth combat sequence against his pet undead dragon. I get that it would be anti-climactic for him to simply get taken out with a stealthy kill, but at the same time you're shitting on an entire supposedly valid gameplay style. And realistically, an assassination should be pretty anticlimactic, if someone's playing a stealthy game they're probably going to want the ending to be low-key. I can forgive some of the forced combat sequences earlier in the game because they generally all give you siege equipment and are more of a minigame than actual combat. I can also forgive the encounter with Aratrok given the underhanded means you can use to win it. But I don't really like that they gave the player no pure stealth way to end the game, or even some environmental options in a game that was full of ways to beat enemies using the environment. The scaffolding on the ceiling makes me think they had some sort of "collapse rocks on the paokai" thing planned but it got scrapped to meet a release date target or something.


1ef153  No.15655431

>>15655399 (checked)

I hated that shit. It also reminds me of the bullshit boss fights in Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Stealth builds just get massacred because they're unskippable, unavoidable, and mandatory lethal combat.


3268b5  No.15655447

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>15655431

The Director's cut fixed this by adding additional rooms to each boss fight area. Like in the first boss there's a bunch of additional hallways added with a room full of turrets. To open its door you have to get into another room and hack a computer. After that you just have to lure the boss in.

It's not like DX1 in that you still have to kill the boss and you can't just run away from them. But it's still something.


240142  No.15655494

I've always had a simple rubric for boss fights. The player should stand a reasonable chance of beating them the first time they encounter them, within reasonable parameters of course. The most vital component for this is the idea that the player is never surprised by an attack that killed them. I'm not talking about an enemy having a fast start up attack you haven't seen before finishing you off when you have only been on a sliver of HP for a while. I'm talking about boss attacks capable of one shotting you for not knowing you have to pre dodge at certain health percentages when the boss will explode, that you have to get yourself hit by an attack to render yourself invulnerable to the followup, or things like the later Fromsoft flail chains that take a few dozen times of seeing just to know when the fuck you can actually attack the boss.

I'd say the idea that a player should be able to beat a boss the first time fighting them reasonably goes out the window on unlockable hard modes (you had to beat it once, you know what the fight is about, no excuses for failure) or secret bosses. But I'll add even on these modes attacks that are 'essentially' instant kill but aren't technically are always a no from me. I'm talking about hits that have so much stun on them and do so much damage that it's more or less impossible to get any meaningful input off before the boss kills you.


b24f9a  No.15655513

>>15655237

>pic

Splendid.


2d22e5  No.15655514

>>15655447

For the most part in the first deus ex you do have to kill all the bosses with the exception of walton simons. Even then just running from him is gonna penalize you. It's neat they accounted for the possibilities with simons at some points but the fanbase treats the game with way too much pretense when they talk up the nonlethal side of the game.


7710a9  No.15656163

File: c11b28f9dff0646⋯.jpg (66.73 KB, 554x600, 277:300, 11661262_m.jpg)

File: 941bf878296fb3b⋯.jpg (34.51 KB, 600x400, 3:2, 11661642_m.jpg)

File: dfb35178b408f27⋯.png (34.47 KB, 216x197, 216:197, Batrider Blunt.png)

Good boss fights

-feel fair

-have attack variety; they do not spend excessive amounts of time boring the player with the same attack over and over

-are not damage sponges; if they don't have attack variety then at least they die quickly

Truly great boss fights have depth. They reward the advanced player with new scenarios if they do certain things. Pics related are some bosses that continue to evolve as the player attains mastery over the game.


b459b6  No.15656253

File: b2a64fc932a7a57⋯.webm (3.83 MB, 400x600, 2:3, Dex vs Str.webm)

>>15653933

>force you to use new weapons/mechanics it gave to you over the course of the level

Make it harder to win without using it? Sure, but FORCING you to use one particular item/mechanic?


adb2c9  No.15656364

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

He just needs a lot more HP, same with most other bosses in the game, quite the wasted potential honestly.


187a9b  No.15656370

>>15653899

>tense music

>almost bullshit attack

>can't be cheesed

formula for a good boss fight.


bb974c  No.15656376

>>15653899

Don't forget the lead up to boss fights. Many fights begin long before you even get to the boss. The boss is just the cherry ontop of the cake. Ornstein and Smough is a great example of this and honestly its the climax of the entire game imo. A boss fight has to have a good lead up or it just doesn't matter.


2dc179  No.15657510

>>15656163

What about multi-phase bosses?


3fd11f  No.15657519

>>15653950

>Easiest to accomplish is game progression is tied to earned gadets or abilities, and these work differently against each boss.

…but that's what makes Mega Man complete shit.

>>15654246

He's not you know.


bdb2e8  No.15657546

>>15657510

Wizard of Legend did it well.


6e1986  No.15660176

>>15657546

Not familiar with that one. Anything you could tell me about it without spoiling too much?


3ca589  No.15660303

File: a38520ea79838be⋯.png (1.15 MB, 4352x6000, 272:375, sucy_manbavaran_by_dekoder….png)

Boss fights are a test of how well you know your things the same way that a literal college test should. The boss/test should be harder than base assignments/mobs, but not too difficult to pull off either due to lack of familiarity intricate knowledge of a system, or knowledge of a specific tool needed for this boss. Oftentimes, with preparedness, the boss can be as trivial as the mobs with your level of skill and preparation, but should maintain a base level of difficulty

Since OP posted DaS 1 I will give two examples, one of a good boss and one of a bad boss. Everyone knows that the bed of chaos is shit. But from an academic standpoint it ticks every marker of what a bad boss entails:

1) the difficulty is not about expanding upon knowledge you learned throughout the previous portions of dark souls. The BoC is trivial to dodge its direct damage, roll spamming works 95% of the time, especially in the first segment, there is no health gage that you need to worry about with the BoC.

2) the difficulty is random: its basic attacks are telegraphed but the problem with the BoC is its pushbox that stiff affects you according to the geometry of the branches. Unfortunately DaS' collision meshes and geometry is dogshit and when you are pushed, it is up to pure chance to determine wither or not you will survive. Combine that with the pits that crumble and you can get pushed into the instadeath pits even if you dodgeroll perfectly from its swipe.

3) you are meant to lose the first time: most casuals will say that dark souls is trial and error when it comes to boss patterns. However someone gud enough can dodge most patterns or stay far enough away to learn the patterns. Due to the aforementioned randomness, however. A player who is encountering the BoC will die the first time they enter the arena. The areas of crumbling ground seem logical in retrospect but without the knowledge that the ground will crumble in the first place it's expected that someone will walk right into the holes he created by shooting/hitting the first root.

4) trivialization: the bed of chaos is utterly trivial due to two factors. One is simply waiting for a good pattern and rushing the next objective, destroying any semblance of skillful play and reducing it into a game of "how many times will I die before I get good RNG" the other way to trivialize it is to look up a guide and figure out where to shoot an arrow. Unlike a specific cheese build meant to poisebreak major bosses like Iron Colossus literally all you need to do is grab a bow and shoot in a specific spot pointed out by a fucktard slav on youtube.

Good boss: Artorious

builds on skill: you need to learn how to get damage in, get out of retaliation range. Know when to sideroll, frontroll and backroll based on attack patterns, estus and attack timing is vital. Telegraphs are clear and noticeable but quick.

Steady difficulty: all his moves are difficult, a few being easier to dodge and having longer cooldowns to give you enough time to chug estus, apply buff or swing a few times. you can still go hyperaggressive and poke between quick recovery attacks you are very confident

nontrivial: despite the static difficulty, the pace of the fighting and raw damage a boosted artorious can deal means that pretty much any build is in danger of dying if a couple of hits connect, especially after his buff. If you can dps enough to poisebreak his buff charge you can get a lot of damage in but it is no means a trivialization of the fight, it's a high risk high reward strategy since if you fail and you're within explosion range, you're almost guaranteed to die to the blast.


e9a926  No.15671161

>>15657519

When I said easiest it could also amount to the cop-out method, but a lot of people like mega man for that, so it isn't always seen as a cop out.


05624d  No.15677302

File: 7bd3503fb385216⋯.jpg (382.11 KB, 1386x1385, 1386:1385, 20189999.jpg)

>>15653899

Challenging and having a memorable strategy/technique. eg. Duriel


092c59  No.15677389

>>15653899

>Besides the difficulty, what is it that makes a boss not only fun but interesting, from a gameplay standpoint or otherwise?

A different or unique attack pattern, weapons, defenses, as well as good loot to drop after or especially steal while battling. Some environmental secrets or uses can be fun too. Nudity helps peak interest too. What doesn't work is bravo and similar to past experiences save for more HP.


aead86  No.15677443

Get out of the fire. Get out of the fire. Get out of the fire. Get out of the fire. You died.


12372b  No.15677540

>>15653899

Ideally something like this this:

>>15653950

The most memorable boss fight for me was Yami at the conclusion of Okami. The fight tests you on everything you've done so far, and lets you use every tool in your kit if you're willing. That said - It's not a difficult fight. It is, in fact, almost trivially easy for an adult to play, especially if consumables are taken into account. To be fair, though, the same rules more or less apply to a lot of the Okami fights.

I'd also add boss fights that do things that simply stand out are pretty good. The Dark Bishop and his pet dragon in Dragon's Dogma are a very 'unique' fight relative to the other things you have to deal with, and force you to use slightly different tactics (holy resistance is a bitch). Even the Gazer is conceptually cool, though Daimon himself suffers a bit from being a bit of a meat-wall more than anything else.


6e297b  No.15678867

File: e6a9d5fc1b16eeb⋯.png (2.85 KB, 160x144, 10:9, red.png)

File: 3af69a22a3cdc9b⋯.png (22.72 KB, 178x172, 89:86, sans.png)

File: b70681c99b1c7b4⋯.gif (18.09 KB, 191x279, 191:279, redeye.gif)

>>15654929

I agree with this. I've been playing games for so long that simple stuff like difficulty, having "phases", testing out "everything I've learned in the game". These days I mostly care about the story stuff - I mean, I have to care about the actual CHARACTER - and / or want to kick his ass. The other stuff is just cherry on top of the cake - but the cake is the actual character.

Some examples: Sid Meier's Pirates Marquis Montalban - well, the asshole kidnapped your whole family and has been hiding his ass in the jungle for the whole game. There's a cutscene of him at the beginning of the game, at the end before the fight, as well as when you finally beat him. This just adds to the appeal.

Pokemon G/S/C's Red - I mean, it's YOU from the previous games. Sitting at the end of a fucking cave. And if you talk to his mother you see that she doesn't know where he is. The "…" just adds to the mystery. Lots of fan theories about him. And he's 10 times more difficult than any other trainer in the game.

CBF doing more writeups but some more examples: Undertale's Sans, Senator Armstrong, Last Bronx' Redeye…


6e297b  No.15678872

>>15678867

>I agree with this. I've been playing games for so long that simple stuff like difficulty, having "phases", testing out "everything I've learned in the game".

I meant the simple stuff does not do it for me anymore.




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