25956b No.15506899
How did they fuck up this badly? All we wanted was a proper sequel to RO, and they gave us an abortion. It's not fair!
69ccb7 No.15506903
I'm tired of games that have comfy classes but are shit on other departments.
Still salty about gw2's engineer.
25956b No.15506905
>>15506903
>>15506903
The thing is that so many ToS classes have maybe one unique skill and 10 variations of "deals damage to 1 enemy in front of you" or whatever
266db1 No.15506912
didn't i post a video abuot ro and tos last mmo thread
25956b No.15506921
096001 No.15507075
greed and mismanagment
the servers only became stable when they lost a huge amount of population, then they doubled down on p2w so even more people left
020b2a No.15507216
The short and sweet answer without going into the nitty-gritty is that the developers didn't understand what made RO successful, but decided to take a bunch of ideas from RO, and then reproduced those ideas poorly, resulting in a failure that just resembles RO in some ways.
Classes mostly feel terrible, and disconnected, and some are locked so far down the tree that it could take several-hundred hours to just get to be the class you like the look of compared to the other branches. They were trying to reproduce the feel of RO's class design, where you change what you are over time. However they stretched the process out to the point of absurdity, started off the whole system badly, and made each class feel pretty hollow, even if you go three-circles into a class most of them still don't offer much complexity or compelling features. The first mistake was only offering 4 basic classes which branch out 10 million times each, it would have probably worked better to have 6~8 starting classes that branch out less extremely, with less of a thematic disconnection between each branch. In the system they went with each new class had virtually zero connectivity to the previous one outside of melee / ranged / magic / faggot. You could spend three ranks as a 2H-using Highlander, then two as a 1h+dagger using Pirate, and then suddenly become a Ninja at the next rank. On paper it sounds kinda awesome, but in practice it feels horribly disconnected and awful. Instead of just adding shitloads of more classes and ranks, they should have either gone with more starting classes with less branches, or looked into something similar to what RO did with Transcendence, since that system allowed for a longer path of progression without hollowing each class out or disconnecting it from the previous class, since the Transcendent classes were essentially additions to their previous iterations rather than mechanical or thematic replacements.
AI was typically bad for an MMO, them not doing anything interesting and even going backwards in this department is worthy of criticism. Enemies just stand around, occasionally attack, and then wait 3~5 seconds before doing anything else, including movement, and it's the same shit for like 300+ levels. At least in RO you had some weird enemies who were memorable outliers in their respective areas, hyper-aggressive Hunter Flies that could teleport around an otherwise unthreatening map and were super fast, Butterflies who were super skittish and would teleport away the moment they felt threatened, or enemies like the Biolabs ghosts who would spam skills extremely quickly. But every enemy in TOS is consistently bland, terrible, and unmemorable.
Similar to WoW (and RO to an extent), TOS tries to rely heavily on the art and sound design to carry it. Unfortunately the art design is ruined by the enormous rate of asset reuse, with many seemingly unrelated maps looking practically identical, and the sound design is a mixed bag. There are some great tracks, but there are a lot of mediocre ones, and in particular, soundTEMP's work on TOS is some of their worst material, a pale shadow of their work on RO. The sound also suffers the same problem as the art, where a lot of it is reused unjustly.
There are hosts of other problems, technical, design, and operational. But those are a couple that I think felt particularly significant to a lot of people.
There's so much to look at in terms of "Why did this fail?" that you could legit write a book about this game's failure, but even if I started today I probably would never be finished with it, there's that much about the game to criticize.
521b55 No.15507370
There was next to no content added post release. And I'm certainly not counting new maps added as the level cap rose since you just powered through those once to reach the next cap and never went back again unless you needed to farm something very specific from them. It's a shame, since the game had potential for fun teamplay.
0c1c2e No.15507501
>>15507216
>I could legit write a book on this.
Didn't some anon end up doing exactly that after launch?
5ce241 No.15507515
>>15506903
The engineer is now probably the most overpowered PVP class, shame you have to buy two fucking expansions to get there.
f1a4c1 No.15507828
>>15506899
I played for about 20 levels when they did the beta. The game felt INCREDIBLY linear. They push you from quest to quest but the game didn't really challenge me at any point, and combat was very samey. Which is a shame, because I remember thinking the basic combat felt fine and could've been a lot more engaging than RO, had they gotten it right.
RO was way more challenging, promoted teamwork, had much more interesting enemy, loot and location variation, and it let you go wherever you wanted to. I feel like ToS had none of that from what little I played.
Maybe one day we'll get a proper successor. Not holding out for it, though.
a013f4 No.15507833
is the amd bug still there? that is reason i stop playing it didn't like how my character was spazzing out couldn't really focus on anything other then that
d251ec No.15507845
>2D MMO
>Ever had a chance to be passable much less good
Not the best meme, but so absurd it's at least slightly funny.
000000 No.15507885
>>15506899
The world is not fair. Never was, and never will be.
Also, there are no good companies. All companies are your enemies.
Never expect anything good from any company at all.
25956b No.15510639
>>15507845
2D MMOs are the best around, fuck third person camera WoW bullshit
17d7e8 No.15510696
>>15510639
Gimme some good 2D mmos brother. The ones I've ever tried are shit/unplayable/dead.
1ca0f5 No.15510703
>>15507828
Can you even name ANY modern MMO that promotes teamwork that isn't moba?
c86180 No.15510705
>>15506899
I only played it open beta so i got no idea how the cash shop fucked it, but the primary problem is it's not RO. I heard someone else compare it to Elsword, which i never played but can only assume is what ToS is closer to. If anything, i'd say blame companies that want the on-rails theme park MMO experience rather than a more obtuse wander-around MMO that was more common before WoW took center stage.
25956b No.15510760
>>15510696
Sadly, most of them are private servers of MMOs of the early 2000s
316b70 No.15510875
25956b No.15510964
>>15510875
Other than it being owned by google, what's bad about YT?
cb4210 No.15510982
>>15510964
It being owned by Google is already one extremely good reason to not use it.
Another good reason is that invidio.us is a thing so there's absolutely no reason to use vanilla YT at all.
ca3582 No.15511081
>>15510703
R-ragnarok online?
oh wait
Everquest?
oh wait
Dungeon fighter?
… oh.
25956b No.15511098
>>15510703
Any WoW clone with raids that have a shitton of people needed.
The problem isn't exactly that, though.
f56456 No.15511329
>>15506899
>Every zone is a line of navigable islands connected by a short bridge
>Actually, entire game is a string little circles connected by bridges until level 300 or so
>You can actually solo to that level
>All raids are instanced
>Dungeons instanced too
I won't even get into combat because it was awful in so many ways at launch that books could be written about it and it has changed since in ways that are equally bad. The art direction is godly and the music is great in most places. They could've grafted those things onto fucking Runescape and had a better game.
05df94 No.15511333
25956b No.15511340
>>15511329
Can you give me a quick rundown on why the combat sucks?
dc75c5 No.15511350
>>15511340
most skills only last 3-5 seconds
pure damage and kill speed > utility
dps >healing
setup time for interesting builds is way too long. either the mobs are dead already by meme melee/archer build or the group moved on
enemies ai is brain dead
more or less its not worth running a non meme build because you're just harming your group at that point
theres 101 class combinations but experimenting is highly discouraged
f56456 No.15511440
>>15511340
This >>15511350
aside from some basic debuffs most sane people dump everything they have into one or two skills just to puke out as much damage as fast as possible.
25956b No.15511465
>>15511440
I kinda wish there were MMOs where debuffs and buffs were important for the gameplay instead of just mindless DPS.
f56456 No.15511504
>>15511465
In Everquest buffs and debuffs were so important there were multiple classes dedicated to nothing but.
dc75c5 No.15511543
>>15511504
>>15511465
oldscholl mmos
everquest & daoc come to mind
if we had a /v/ daoc group it would be amazing, you actually need team play,utilities support,etc, this is pre solo era.
9c3b1a No.15511612
Good art but shit at everything else. Had high hopes for this. There will be cucked version of RO soon by chinks called RO: Eternal Love. Not sure how good it will be.
000000 No.15511617
Because retards pressed for the game to release before it was ready and got a shitty unfinished game. MMO development takes years and years, retards need to understand this.
25956b No.15511622
>>15511543
Why do people say MMOs are too solo now? The entire point of the WoW clones with their shitty raids is to get people to party with a gorillion people and play together.
ce1ee5 No.15511625
>>15511622
Nobody plays raids.
f56456 No.15511695
>>15511622
The entire raid format is shit. You used to need a group just to fight Orc Gate Guard #2. You used to need a network of friends to craft and brew things for you in exchange for things you also made. Players had to move items themselves between towns and barter by the roadside to make money. Everything is automated now. In games like Black Desert and other new age trash you can get the strongest gear and fund its upgrades completely solo.
615bca No.15511705
>>15511695
Sounds like second job.
Most oldschool hardcore mmo players probably moved onto farming simulator and the like these days.
25956b No.15511737
>>15511705
Old MMOs were farming simulators. Though, solo grinders are awful, I wish there was just more reason to party with different people all the time (not in a dungeon finder kinda way), it makes the experience much less repetitive.
f56456 No.15511750
>>15511705
Yes, heaven forbid that not everything be accessible to every player at all times.
10d5ee No.15511765
>>15511750
>strawman
Nothing wrong with giving good rewards for hard but fun content.
But forcing players into boring brain dead but time consuming chores is what gave MMOs their grinding simulators reputation in the first place.
>>15511737
It's ok to farm mobs if combat is fun. But farming materials by literally staring at bars going up and down is anti-fun. It requires some special kind of autism to enjoy.
f56456 No.15511800
>>15511765
How is your own argument my strawman, faggot?
10d5ee No.15511807
>>15511800
>english is hard
8fc3ea No.15512006
>>15511765
What materials are you referring to? Which game?
33983e No.15512174
Oh boy, it's this thread again
Why don't you just shill for TalonRO, a private serb that seems a bit populated?
I found it last week and I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
I'll be heading to sleep in a bit, but I'd appreciate being spoonfed a bit before I wake up.
096001 No.15512221
>>15507216
>Classes mostly feel terrible, and disconnected, and some are locked so far down the tree that it could take several-hundred hours to just get to be the class you like the look of compared to the other branches.
i'd have to disagree, there were balance issues (i levelled a cryo-kino through the ice levels) but it wasn't that the classes themselves were bad and i got quite a bit of help from people i played with. it took some planning to decide a route that wouldn't fuck you over but that was part of the fun, and then they introduced class resets for the low low price of $30.
>AI was typically bad for an MMO
the bosses in the beta, had some nice bullet hell mechanics. the problem was if you got hit by even a single bullet the game would crash and you couldn't login for 20-30 minutes. they fixed this by removing the attacks. i know it's not strictly an ai issue but it was a big disappointment. the ai in general improved in later areas which were added after the beta, but they also screwed up so many other things at that time.
>>15507370
i felt there was a decent amount of content it was just very poorly implemented. the pvp could have been nice, the earth tower and related events could have been nice.
to me the big thing the game had going for it was the fact that i could play with a controller after remapping a few things.
096001 No.15512229
>>15511617
by retards you mean kim hakkyu, he also stepped down from the company after he realized the mess he'd made.
f1a4c1 No.15512354
>>15512174
Isn't TalonRO full of pay to win cash shop shit?
000000 No.15512369
>>15506899 (checked)
There will never be a proper successor to RO, the first strike was with RO II, an absolute abortion. Then there were the other isometric MMORPGs that all fell to obscurity and failed the same way nobody remembers the Maplestory side scroller clones.
>>15507845
It wasn't 2D, it was isometric and isometric games are YUGEly popular. We already had the disaster that was a 3D RO, remember RO2?
>>15511350
This. Combat it crazy slow or boring in ToS same with the mobs. The only positive was that there were some very unique, interesting, and amazing skills like Chronos time magic.
8fc3ea No.15512385
>>15512174
TalonRO is literally the most awful server that is, all of their changes are to just make the game easier for no reason. The logic is to take a good map for leveling/farming and make it even better to go there just because.
HP/SP regen is super cheap due to changes to meat and super easy to make grape juice that's sold in bulk at 150z each. Once you get a General Enigem Cenia card you have free infinite HP/SP.
Almost free stat/skill resets without any cooldown so you can change your build at will.
Retarded OP custom items like pic related and https://wiki.talonro.com/Super_Quest_Items that kill any sort of variety in itemization.
The worst, a cash shop system that sells all MVP gear, including cards (ALL cards) and kills the point of farming anywhere high level, just go kill Geffenia stuff for 300 hours and you can get your full retarded custom/mvp build items.
0c1c2e No.15512398
>>15512385
>>15512174
>MVP card cash shop
That's the most degenerate thing I've heard in days.
What good private servers are out there these days? I know there was one or two decent servers out there last summer when we tried to play together again, but most of them fell apart to drama or a lack of support.
521b55 No.15512402
>>15510982
Is invidio.us the next hooktube?
8fc3ea No.15512411
>>15512398
OriginsRO isn't p2w but there's nothing custom either.
020b2a No.15512431
>>15512398
OriginsRO is still going, and will be adding Trans classes soon NEVER EVER because it will put them in competition with TalonRO's mid-rate Rebirth target audience and they know it, whereas OriginsRO currently dominates the mid-rate Classic audience. They will never admit this though since it will immediately drive away all of the players who have been staying in anticipation of one day getting Trans classes. They have at least added Ninjas and Gunslingers now though.
heRO is still going, but is basically dead, 99% of online players are currently merchants. I look back and laugh at how they basically destroyed themselves to spite us. Nerfing the most popular high level non-grind xp gains (the Puppy quest, and BGs) just because we were using it to level up faster than they were comfortable with despite benefiting from those systems themselves beforehand.
d300e2 No.15512443
>>15512431
I also played on heRO with /v/, it was fun but holy shit was an autistic circlejerk of a server that was.
0c1c2e No.15512450
>>15512411
Custom shit has always been divisive, as seen last time when there was a starting split between a classic server and a more homebrew server. This shit seems pretty decent, though.
>>15512431
>heRO
Oh christ, that one-stop-shop of retardation. From the moment we set foot on that server it seemed like they made every mistake possible from randomly scrutinizing a bunch of new players to fucking up the BGs into unplayability despite some anon describing step-by-step how to fix their shit. It's like they made an effort to make their server unplayable for newcomers by shitting on every source of EXP, income, and community they could utilize.
OriginsRO seems surprisingly fun and stable. Is TalonRO still run by twats with an obnoxious donation scheme?
a8cd13 No.15512452
>>15511098
>Any WoW clone with raids that have a shitton of people needed.
They don't actually require teamwork.
>>15511622
The issue is that you get in the party then autonomously do your job. There is low interaction between players and it's unlikely that you'd notice the difference between having one class in your party over another.
020b2a No.15512479
>>15512450
Origins is stable indeed, the admins don't want to rock the boat and seem to test every addition outside of cosmetics for months in advance to prevent issues. It's just a shame that they'll probably never add the content I'm interested in; Trans classes and SG/SL.
TalonRO's the same as always. Fucking retarded.
8fc3ea No.15512546
>>15512452
>and it's unlikely that you'd notice the difference between having one class in your party over another
Because WoW literally homogenized everything, there's 0 difference between classes of the same role.
8fc3ea No.15514733
beda0d No.15514923
If the mere mention of *renewal* doesn't send you into anaphylactic shock, LeikaRO is alright. Custom server that tries to smooth out the worst of it, ending up somewhere half-way. For classic/trans it's same old as far as I know, beyond the usual new cashgrab servers that shutdown after a few months.
aa1375 No.15515071
>>15514923
I really want to play this again, but 150~200 players is too low, playing alone is discouraging.
beb561 No.15515186
>>15514923
>jejnibble
You can be a super saiyan too!
58beb6 No.15515343
>>15512479
Oh shit, my wiz is in the screenshot. Brings back memories. Came back a couple months ago, now I'm burned out on solo grinding. Also seems like you need to install discord to join a WoE guild, screw that lol
c624ee No.15515375
>>15510964
Along with what >>15510982 said there's also tracking from embeds.
>>15512402
Hopefully not in the way that hooktube became fucking useless eventually.
d251ec No.15515524
>>15510639
>WoW is the source of 3rd person camera in MMOs
No, fuck you.
000000 No.15517142
4481e3 No.15517217
>>15512221
>That pic
That shit right there is what got me out of ToS. Seeing just how rampant bots and goldsellers had gotten, and how there wasn't even a fucking report button for the niggers in the first several months of the game's life didn't show promise. Walking around and seeing just how many people had so obviously just bought their way into having god-tier gear was extremely discouraging. And the difference good gear makes killed me knowing that I would never be able to even remotely compete.
ca3582 No.15518308
>>15512431
>>15512479
You guys got the Icewall windmill of peace screenshot?
020b2a No.15518440
>>15518308
Whilst I remember it, I don't think I have it.
I do have this though.
d300e2 No.15518504
>>15518308
I know someone has it since I've seen it being posted. I was the one who made it so it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling
000000 No.15519220
>>15517217
Let's be fair here, a F2P is never going to sort out its botting problem. P2P can't even win against the eternal chink and their bots, nobody ever stood a chance.
096001 No.15519281
>>15517217
gear like that partly existed because of an exploit, if you used an anvil and it failed you could crash the area you're in for a few minute rollback and then do it again.
the gold sellers/buyers were pretty rampant though.
beb561 No.15519523
>>15518504
>>15518308
>you made it
Oh shit nigger, what's up, I also helped make it
000000 No.15519616
Are there even any good rpgs with a branching class system that makes sense?
beb561 No.15519710
>>15519523
Also immediately afterwards we flooded the cities with spam
4481e3 No.15520335
>>15519220
But they didn't even try to correct it. The things they did do while pretending do something about it ended up fucking players over harder than it did goldsellers. Even when they did eventually add the report bot button it did literally nothing. I once sat on a couple of bots for a full day hitting the report bot button about every hour and even got a few friends to come over the to zone to report them as an experiment. They did nothing about it. I came back to the zone three days later and the same couple bots were still there killing the same shit. Their urgency to correct this problem was entirely nonexistent. You can say they were destined to have bot issues but I say they dug their own grave when they were completely ignored the problem.
>>15519281
The refinement levels are just about the least offensive part about the gear.
4696a1 No.15520358
>>15512546
So true
<Whats the difference between wizard specs? The colours.
<What's the difference between warrior specs? The weapons in your hands.
>>15506899
They made linear questing nonsense, instead of the comfy open world grinder/adventure it was supposed to be. Instanced bosses instead of having a Godzilla monster out in the open in a bunch of maps.
4481e3 No.15520485
>>15506899
Another issue that I haven't seen mentioned yet is how they handled stat scaling, or more accurately, didn't.
95% of the skills in the game did arbitrary flat values which didn't take stats into consideration what-so-ever. Besides making it a bitch to balance, it made many early class choices worthless further down the line and railroaded a meta in place where the strongest classes became the ones that had any scaling at all. People would completely skip over certain classes because, while they were nice at the time you got them, they would be a waste of precious class slots later when that flat damage they dealt became obsolete at the next tier up. The best early classes became those that offered the most utility later or had something that could keep pace with the late game. This was extra devastating for some players that unintentionally kneecapped themselves from the start while they were trying to have fun, only to find themselves gimped by the later levels when things get really grindy.
Few things can be as disheartening as finding out too late that the character you put so much time and effort into is irrevocably fucked and would forever be substandard, doomed to mediocrity because you happened to pick the wrong classes at the start of game before you could have even remotely predicted how it would affect you later.
d300e2 No.15521633
000000 No.15522706
>>15506905
This is most every MMO to be fair. When tree of savior had unique skills, it had REALLY unique skills no other MMORPG I know of had. Very few others can claim this.
>>15520485
Equipment in this game was fucked, the best gear was something mid level that added an line of extra attack or something and they never nerfed it. There were so many interesting but wasted concepts.
1cb275 No.15523447
>>15507216
>Instead of just adding shitloads of more classes and ranks, they should have either gone with more starting classes with less branches
I was just thinking they should have limited class requirements and tiers too. So that, if you knew where to go, you could become almost any class you want right off the bat.
>>15517217
>>15520335
This actually contributed to me quitting. Particularly last summer IIRC shortly after their free reroll event. Don't think it was bots in particular, could have been, but AFK Necros were inflating the economy and ruining some zones. Requests to fix this were met with "They leveled the class it's what they earned." Then a glitch happened reversing drop rates. Market got flooded with all the rare commodities and ToS staff did some bannings and maybe a rollback. Then after patching it SUPRISE! The glitch was still there! This may have happened up to three times, but my recollection is poor. At that point I thought to myself how hypocritical it was to punish people taking advantage of the glitch, but not AFK Necros. Then I realized the key difference between the two is that if gold isn't worth anything then no one has an incentive to spend real money on it. However with AFK Necros driving up prices it strong incentive people to spend real money on gold. That's when I quit.
>>15520485
Do Korean grindan MMOs keep doing this knowing you'll either pay real money to fix it or start all over again since they've got their hooks in you?
4481e3 No.15524842
>>15523447
>Do Korean grindan MMOs keep doing this knowing you'll either pay real money to fix it or start all over again since they've got their hooks in you?
That might work on Koreans but the people I know that found out too late their character was fucked just stopped playing. I would too if it had happened to me but I played through the betas so I knew in advance what I was getting into. I really don't see how anyone could have known about it without prior experience. It's terrible game design and reminds me of old 90's CRPGs that had useless stats with no way of knowing before investing and no way to respec.
95cae0 No.15527651
>>15522706
Had unique skills? Did they get rid of them or what?
6671e5 No.15527933
>>15512479
>junkmancer
I still have origins installed. Tried playing again a while back but got bored. Maybe I'll join in if the guild would get active again.
52249d No.15528007
>>15520358
if that girl eats ice cream every day and the lady knows it, why is she asking that question?
e3b0c5 No.15529208
Only reason why I even started playing during the Alpha was because I missed out on what was a good ride in Secret of the Solstice thanks to Outpark's demise or mismanagement.
If anything was close to RO it was SotS
03a465 No.15529590
>>15528007
maybe she wanted to know why after seeing it so many times and just asked why instead of "why do you always"
95cae0 No.15529893
>>15529208
How is SotS? It looks pretty good, are there any priv servers still on?