/v/ - Video Games

i keep forgetting to take off this stupid fucking flag

>>15373593

If there's no upgrades for weapons, how can you sell upgrades in the DLC store?

>>15373593

it's a quick an easy way to reward the player at any point.

>"You walked 10 feet as I asked you to? Congratulations! Level up! Here's upgrade points!"

It's fully in line with the (((modern guidelines))) for making games, which say the player should be constantly rearded for anything and everything so as to keep him happy and playing.

>>15373593

this and glory kills were one of my biggest issues with nudoom what in the fuck was the point of this? Most of the mobility & weapon upgrades improved the gameplay too so you had to grind out collectibles before it could become somewhat fun god damn this frustrated me

Because developers are retarded and have no idea what makes games fun. Upgrades are only acceptable for base/city building games. Skill trees are trash for every single genre and should be wiped off the face of the earth.

>>15373733

the gameplay itself is pretty alright since your standards for modern shooters should be lower than the mariana trench, music sort of fits with the style they were going with and the game is a bit on the easy side but why the FUCK did they add upgrades into the game? most of them either don't add almost anything interesting to the combat or they're borderline crucial if you want smooth gameplay. I would argue the double jump controls change the way you play drastically but its locked behind some rune system or whatever it was called. Most weapon mods could've just been given to you in some more interesting way than having to find floating robot things that unlock it for you

overall the game itself isn't some sort of absolute failure as many would call it but the cutscene-like glory kills and upgrade system held it back immensely

>>15373593

UPGRADES ARE THE BEST FUCKING THING ABOUT ANY GAME. SKILL TREES ARE GREAT AS LONG AS YOU CAN EVENTUALLY GET THEM ALL. DIE FAG.

It's part of the homogenization of the reason, it's actually the same reason RPGs are getting simpler. Publishers desire to have their game as accessible as possible, so they spread games thin across multiple genres, making the RPG elements shallow and the shooting elements unsatisfying.

>>15373766

>SKILL TREES ARE GREAT AS LONG AS YOU CAN EVENTUALLY GET THEM ALL

That's the worst of it, what are you talking about? Then you might as well just let the game pick them for you.

>>15373733

>>15373785

I have pirated it and been playing it, the upgrades aren't even needed if u git gud.

>>15373785

It's 60 gigs. I don't want to waste the bandwidth, storage space, or time needed to even pirate it. Glory kills made me hesitant to commit to that, an upgrade system killed its chances.

>>15373820

post the full version, anon

>>15373593

Bad thing that brings with it good possibilities.

It's bad because it locks you out of shit that you should have frmo the start and the focus change from grindind instead of gitting gud.

But it also opens up the possibility of creating builds to customize how your character works.

It can be done well but most of the time it isn't and it's just grinding to get all your shit.

>>15373727

Seconded.

If it's an RPG I'd prefer to get stats from gear and leveling up though if I get stats WITH a new ability/skill, then sure- it's a bonus that synergizes with what I just got. Like extra HP or damage reduction when learning to counter-attack.

If its not, Then why does it have RPG stats in the first place?

>>15373802

>That's the worst of it, what are you talking about? Then you might as well just let the game pick them for you.

Depends on the game. If its a challenge that encourages making different "builds" then it's dumb. If its a sandbox situation where the focus is being overpowered, then why not?

>>15373814

Allegedly it's OK for a modern shooter, but still a shit-show when compared to classics. As you said, enemies are fucking pinatas for healing and ammo. And there isn't a huge number of them. No clue if higher difficulties alleviate that issue, or make it so you need the extra ammo/health pick-ups.

Don't break your back over it, there's probably some older or even indie shooters you can enjoy.

>>15373720

>My subjective opinion is biblical truth.

This as bad as idiots claiming

>All open world games are trash.

Skill trees offer build diversity and give a feeling of progression through power.

Maybe if you applied thought to things instead of parroting some other idiot you can figure out what makes a good game yourself big guy.

>>15373981

SCUM looks fucking amazing.

>>15373993

>SCUM looks fucking amazing.

As an autism game, I agree. Doesn't look fun, but I do want to try it.

Not sure what that has to do with skill trees though.

>>15373820

look at this retard eating shit

>>15373683

Glory kills need to be quicker but yeah eternal looks alot better kinda like painkiller

>>15373803

>>15373803

>the upgrades aren't even needed if u git gud

retarded argument, the fact that some mechanics are hidden/unavailable until later on in the game is fucking stupid, not about making the game easier but playing it how it was meant to be played

>>15373593

>Why does every new non-RPG and their mother have some form of gay upgrade system?

It gives you fake feeling of progression even if theres none

>>15374040

Look at the SCUM hub dude, so much autism.

>>15373683

I thought the glory kills were nice. They were never really more than a second long anyway.

>>15374224

So far they disconnect me from the gun gameplay, I can run around move fast blast demons in the face or I could one shot everything, then go glory kill them, its a mixed bag for me so far.

>Reduces the recharge time between explosive shots

They added cooldown to secondary fires, didn't they? In a year where every Diablo clone has a philosophy of avoiding cooldowns, AAA games like Doom and GoW are adding fucking cooldowns to their shit. It is regression in game design. AAA games are not stale, they are officially becoming worse.

Fuck upgrade shit, in original Doom you also had upgrades in a form of picking up new weapons. Picking up shotgun was Doom's linear alternative to you need level 5 to pick this skill. They just made it so it gives you an illusion of choice.

This is real cancer we should be discussing.

Are there any games that have done skill trees right? And where it actually felt cohesive to the game's overall design instead of feeling completely shoed-in like most games that use them?

>>15373733

Let's start with runes

>Vacuum: You can grab dropped health, armour and ammo from greater distance. Wee. Convenience.

>Dazed and Confused: Enemies stay in glory kill-able state longer. Glory kills.

>Ammo Boost: Doubles all ammo you gain, which makes the game even easier. Makes game easier.

>Equipment Power: "Increases the effectiveness of Equipment items" - perhaps then they'd be of any use. Never used it.

>Seek and Destroy: You can teleport to perform a glory kill from longer range. Glory kills.

>Savagery: Faster glory kills. Glory kills.

>In-Flight Mobility: More manoeuvrability after double jump and only after you do the "mastery task" you get air control on even after a single jump. Convenience.

>Armored Offensive: Armour for glory kills. Kinda cheap since you get HP from glory kills already, so now you get two kinds of HP with one glory kill. Makes game easier.

>Blood Fueled: Speed boost after a glory kill. Probably the most useful glory kill related rune, after Armored Offensive. Convenience.

>Intimacy is Best: staggered demons take less damage. Glory kills?

>Rich Get Richer: If you're above 100 armour, shooting is free. Makes game easier.

>Saving Throw: When you should die you get a boost, one time use, resets on death. Makes game easier.

No rune is truly something you want at expense of something else. All convenience runes feel like they should be integral to the game, while most runes that make game easier shouldn't be a thing. Also, since you can just swap them freely whenever you want, why aren't they all active at once? For maximum retarded minmaxing you could swap them when needed and get benefits of all of them.

Say runes are 5/12 useful.

Moving on, suit upgrades.

>Environmental Resistance upgrades

Hazard Protection decreases damage from explosive barrels and environmental damage, Self Preservation decreases weapon self-damage, Barrels O' Fun makes Doomguy immune to explosive barrels. Ever wanted to run like a retard, shoot everywhere and ignore any hazards? This is for you.

>Area-Scanning Technology upgrades

Item Awareness draws map in a wider map around you, Secret Sense makes the compass pulse near secret areas, Full View makes exploration items appear on the map automatically. Ever heard of secrets? Yeah, me neither.

>Equipment System upgrades

These just make your grenades/whatever recharge faster and have more charges.

>Power-Up Effectiveness upgrades

Power Surge makes shit around you explode when power-up wears off (isn't the point of power-ups to make you powerful in their own ways and not just explode?), Healing Power gives you full HP/armour on pick up, Power Extender makes power-ups last longer. Sort of least useless upgrade category.

>Dexterity upgrades

Adept makes you switch weapons faster. Quick Hands make you grab ledges faster. Hot Swap makes you swap weapon mods faster. Might as well not exist.

These little shits are 3/15 to 5/15 useful. Terrific.

>>15373733

>>15374358

WEAPON MODS UPGRADES!

>Pistol

<Charged Energy Shot

A bit stronger normal shot. You almost never use a pistol at all, much less this.

>Shotgun

<Charged Shot

Hey, ever wanted your shotgun to also be super shotgun? I never used it and I don't really see the point in this upgrade.

<Explosive Shot

Grenade launcher, I actually like it, since it's a grenade launcher and it has satisfying mastery upgrade; direct hit with a grenade spawns cluster bombs (more damage). It's pretty fun, but broken against larger enemies.

>Heavy Assault Rifle

<Tactical Scope

Makes you shoot normal bullets, but better, until they're super bullets. I like this mod, since it gives the player a choice between awareness and damage.

<Micro Missiles

Using your bullet ammo you can fire micro missiles. They use the same ammo and don't have terribly big splash. Just shoot the fucking gun or use rocket launcher.

>Plasma Rifle

<Heat Blast

Shoot 'em and fry 'em. Shooting generates heat and discharging it deals damage around you, at full load it's pretty substantial. It's nice that it forces you into a cycle of shoot from afar - get close for free damage. And it's not very good against bigger demons, unless as a finisher.

<Stun Bomb

Actually never used it, probably uses ammo. Stuns enemies and mastery upgrade allows you to chain stun enemies.

>Super Shotgun

It doesn't have mods, two upgrades are about reloading and one gives shots penetration.

>Rocket Launcher

<Remote Detonation

You can detonate a rocket midair now. Mastery skill puts secondary explosives outside the rocket, so you can explode the rocket twice. Upgrades give bigger splash and damage over time. Pretty sweet.

<Lock-on Burst

Allows you to quickly shoot 3 aimed missiles at one target. Mastery allows you to target 3 enemies, but that's a waste in my opinion. Still, doesn't change the fact that Rocket Launcher manages to have both of its mods actually useful and competitive.

>Chaingun

<Gatling Rotator

Let's you… Spin the weapon without firing. Mastery increases normal damage, so it's ok, I guess.

<Mobile Turret

Move slower and fire faster. Eh? Maybe it's useful in a pinch, when you really need to kill somebody.

>Gauss Cannon

<Precision Bolt

Remember Tactical Scope? Same thing, but with a sniper rifle.

<Siege Mode

>Use the Weapon Mod Button to charge up a powerful beam that penetrates targets. Movement is disabled when using Siege Mode.

>Movement is disabled when using Siege Mode.

Mastery allows you to start moving when in siege mode, but you have to suffer to unlock it first.

Also, there actually IS enough drones with mods to allow you to pick every fucking mod you want sooner or later. Great choice.

Usefulness 7/13

There's also argent energy pick ups hidden here and there. You increase your max HP, armour or ammo with them. The catch? None, actually. You just find it and take it. No, you don't get to fight a monster closet. In fact, these shits are always free and even fucking shown on the map. This design is retarded.

So, all in all, 15 out of 34 upgrades are sensible. But even then, you take them only if you don't want a challenge - they're straight upgrades with no downsides, besides weapon mods. Some of these at least have a drawback, like moving slower, ballistic trajectory of a projectile or having to get up close and personal. Everything else can go fuck itself, it's terrible.

>>15374329

Cooldown structures are definitely being used too much, but sometimes it's a necessity to make an ability fun to use. Using a strong ability every 10 seconds is a lot more fun than using a weak ability as much as you like, and generally embraces a more skillful/better designed usage of the ability.

The chief reason that diablo clones are avoiding it is that doing so will typically generate optimal rotations and they're instead banking on resource systems that make skills selectively optimal. Not all games can rely on that or at least do so feasibly due to the interplay between different systems.

>>15373593

>What happened to good ol' linear progression or having all the tools available to you from the start? What happened to good ol' player growth instead of just character growth?

Because people who play games long enough start to feel like they're wasting their lives and no longer want to play games. Most games include features to make players feel like they're accomplishing something by playing. People who have played games for 20 years don't have a lot of player growth left to make. Whether or not that justifies the decision to add character growth to games doesn't matter - it's why it's happening.

>>15373785

There is nobody worse than someone who plays games they won't even like. There are tens of thousands of games out there that you've never played, but you'd rather play games you know you won't like. No, pirating doesn't make it any more acceptable to waste your life playing games that you don't want to play.

What the fuck is wrong with people?

>>15374353

The recently released Overload (a spiritual successor to Descent, and a good one at that) had an upgrade system, but it was actually pretty good because you had a binary upgrade path for each weapon of which you could pick only one option which would permanently lock out the other, like aug canisters in Deus Ex. So you can't get every single upgrade in a run and need to make a trade-off, and all upgrade variants are actually fairly viable. Upgrade points in missions are found in secrets, but you can only upgrade in-between missions so you don't feel obligated to pause the game to look at your upgrade menu all the time.

You can't really speak of build variety here, but it's integrated with the progression of the game well enough and there are some tough choices to make.

>>15374374

Cooldowns to me are just band-aid design. Restricting ability usage through resource management or other systems allow for much more interplay and player agency than having to wait until you can use your awesome button. The only exception to cooldowns I can tolerate is if you have ways to actively reduce cooldown times, so you're not forced to just wait.

>>15374558

Cooldowns ARE resources. They make lots of sense in some genres, not so much in others. I could not imagine DotA with only mana instead of cooldowns. Stacking mangos or Arcane Boots would make Wraith King indestructible, for example.

muh RPG elements

>>15374745

>I could not imagine DotA with only mana instead of cooldowns

It's not like ASSFAGGOTS could possibly be any worse

>>15374745

ASSFAGGOTS is a terrible genre to begin with.

>>15373785

>So you're saying you haven't even bothered to pirate it.

>Consequently you're judging it without even having played it.

<what do you mean you played it?

<why would you play it if it was bad?