/v/ - Video Games

>>15315960

>why do people like to role play in a role playing game

Gee OP, I dunno.

>>15316019

CYOA =/= role play in a video game sense

Because stories, lore and aspects that involve writing (characters and dialogue) well-integrated with gameplay make it that much more meaningful and memorable. It adds context and is also just good on its own (assuming the story is actually good) since people have enjoyed stories since the beginning of mankind

If you're also going to be focused on the gameplay of a game, the combat should at least be fun (skyrim isnt), Dark Souls would've been a better example

>How is completing a storyline remotely as interesting than making your character much more powerful and eventually btfoing every unfortunate shit who crosses your path?

This largely depends on how progression is handled, and in many cases its easy anyways, not including grinding options

Nothing wrong with it though, just a matter of taste. In many RPGs its possible to do either/or. In Diablo 1's case you can ignore the deep lore, worldbuilding, characters and plotline to autism-simulate with gear and spells and whatnot if you wanted to, follow it closely and not focus much on the autistic part, or you can try to do both

You can do both, nigga.

It's more fun when the games are more open ended and you can just fuck around and do whatever you want just having fun with just the mechanics and random activities, sure. But it's fine to have that main plot going on, even if you don't care about it as much you probably should(mostly because it doesn't actually matter as much as it should, too).

>How is completing a storyline remotely as interesting than making your character much more powerful

It's the same shit, you get stronger doing that too, it's just a matter of caring about it in the first place.

Using Skyrim as an example, I didn't give half a shit about the main questline and just wandered around until I realized it was a shitty game.

But right now I'm playing New Vegas for the first time, and the main quest, while not my main focus, is intriguing enough for me to engage it whenever I can. (It would also be a shitty game if not for mods and for me trying to play it without dying once)

>>15315960

>than following the main/guild quests.

Well, unlike some other proper RPGs, it's not like Morrowind and Skyrim are the epitome of great quests and writing.

>>15315960

Character development without a well developed world to interact with is ultimately an unfulfilling activity for most people, likewise a story with no influence from the player can be unsatisfying as well. It's no coincidence that people who like eternally grindy games (ARPGs for example) are usually very depressed people, while people who like highly scripted story games (linear jRPGs) are usually unbearable faggots.

>>15316074

>people who like eternally grindy games (ARPGs for example)

What kinda ARPG are you thinking about?

When I think ARPG I think a game where you can avoid grinding by actually giting gud and dodging shit instead of just raising your numbers.

>>15316089

Traditionally means Diablo-likes.

>>15315960

> I enjoy exploring the world by myself leveling up my skills and customizing my gears more than following the main/guild quests.

>more than following the main/guild quests

Nigger the first thing the main quest does is tell you to fuck off and get stronk, you are playing the main quest until you leave the heart's chamber

>>15316112

Technically you're right.

But I think it's pretty dull action if the combat mostly consists of standing in place clicking on shit until they're all dead. I think the lack of a good storyline isn't the biggest problem the players have.

>>15316031

>Because stories, lore and aspects that involve writing (characters and dialogue) well-integrated with gameplay make it that much more meaningful and memorable.

I don't doubt that, but what I'm trying to say is why is it in most RPG's, one feature outweighs the others, yet people still consider these games as "perfect RPG"? Seems to me most RPG fans only highly value the story part of the RPG while ignoring the rest.

>If you're also going to be focused on the gameplay of a game, the combat should at least be fun (skyrim isnt)

But when number crunching and stat management are the major focus of the game, combat a kind of becomes a secondary feature.

>Dark Souls would've been a better example

Dark Souls isn't a good example because it's very limiting in it's customization. I'm not sure why, but Dark Souls feels much more linear than Morrowind and Skyrim. DS always feels repetitive to me. There are several classes to choose of course, but the progression is literally the same for every classs. You can't become powerful without a lot of bloodshed, as opposed to Elder Scrolls games where progression isn't always tied to combat, there are way more peaceful and sneaky options that are most of the time more effective than perpetually fighting.

>Nothing wrong with it though, just a matter of taste.

>In many RPGs its possible to do either/or

Thanks for being open minded, but most "hardcore" RPG fans aren't like you.

>>15316042

>You can do both, nigga.

But New Vegas doesn't let you to. The open ended content and customization are so skimp, most of them are even inaccessible without doing quests. In Skyrim, after killing the first dragon, you virtually can acquire the most powerful gears in the game without doing any quest anymore. In Morrowind, you can be a 50000 strength battlemage fresh off the boat.

>>15316074

>eternally grindy games

The eternal grind is the cancer of all RPG. In TES there's a point where you're powerful enough to not grind anymore, it's awful how many games lack this.

>>15316132

It's not like I bash storytelling and context making, I'm just not okay with RPGfags letting these outweighing the other features. Take classic Fallout games, the dungeons are incredibly boring empty corridors and the combat is just an awful slog, but only a few seem to have a problem with them because they're distracted by the story. And for me, the less scripted aspect of the RPG (I mean doing non quest related stuff like what I described in the OP) is the more enjoyable part of the game because I'm playing video games not reading a book.

>>15316138

Sounds more like they're giving a vacation to me. It's not a quest if you're just doing your own stuff and not demanded to fetch anything for them.

>>15316222

there is no perfect RPG anon

>I don't doubt that, but what I'm trying to say is why is it in most RPG's, one feature outweighs the others, yet people still consider these games as "perfect RPG"? Seems to me most RPG fans only highly value the story part of the RPG while ignoring the rest.

I guess because its kinda hard to find good stories in RPGs (and in vidya period) and people just really want RPGs to have good writing?

People like to shit on vidya for having generally inferior writing to other mediums, and I guess these people just value it very much

For my perspective, I view a good storyline as important because I like a full "experience" of sorts, I want to remember as many aspects about the game and I want to go through it remembering why this and that was important, why I was doing something and how the story, world and characters affected me while I went through it. A story just helps a game be more memorable in my opinion, and it helps retain focus which is important for me since I like to go through a game with purpose. Sandbox-styled games aren't my thing. I like some customization and freedom, but I want some scope to it and a reason to keep moving forward or else I start doing whatever I feel like until I get bored and lose interest until I eventually quit

I don't agree that Dark Souls is limiting in its customization (maybe compared to TES games though, fair enough but it still has plenty of options in terms of combat choices) but I do agree that its flat progression is a bit too connected to its customization (excluding pyromancy), though but I feel like once the minimum stat or requirement in question is reached for an option to be used, its all that's really necessary and on top of this, the sheer differences in weapons and how they feel and behave really do provide more options than would meet the eye with just "Pyromancy, magic, prayers, melee combat and ranged combat" on the surface

There's a certain point in each combat stat or field that when reached, most all of your options become available to you for it and you have a good amount of control over that, I feel

>>15316243

I love stories too, but games are best at telling stories through numbers and other means of abstractions. Player progression in an RPG is a story by itself for me, even when it doesn't change the narrative outcome of a quest. And it's not like such stuff doesn't qualify it as an RPG. Every video game can have stories and numbers and decision making, but not all of them are an RPG. Character progression and non linearity are what differ RPG from non RPG's.

>>15316279

>A story just helps a game be more memorable in my opinion, and it helps retain focus which is important for me since I like to go through a game with purpose.

For me, a story always feels like scripted moments, no matter how many branching paths it has. This is why I think it makes most story feel disconnected from the gameplay.

>>15321069

It's enjoyable at times, but the animations are just extremely slow, waiting for enemies' turn is boring, and you have no control over your attack's accuracy. Jagged Alliance 2 did combat a lot better. I heard Tactics fixed some of the issues earlier games have, but the lack of open ended exploration keeps me from trying it.

>>15316222

>The open ended content and customization are so skimp, most of them are even inaccessible without doing quests.

Both means both, not one or the other separately.

You get strong like a motherfucker and also advance in storylines.

It doesn't matter that some stuff is locked behind quests, you can get stronger and do most quests whenever you want.

>>15321047

>but games are best at telling stories through numbers and other means of abstractions

that's like, your opinion, man

>For me, a story always feels like scripted moments, no matter how many branching paths it has.

It's as scripted as an enemy's AI. The NPCs are guaranteed to say the same things in a cutscene in the same way that some enemies are guaranteed to spawn in certain areas that you choose to go.

It's a game, it was designed by someone, the design takes place in the game you're playing, be it in stuff that NPCs are "choosing" to do or shit that you are choosing to do.

>>15321112

>you can get stronger and do most quests whenever you want

Not when power armor training is hidden behind 100 lockpick and dozens of long quests. Furthermore the enemies are too hard and don't reward enough exp to make you strong without doing quests.

>that's like, your opinion, man

Actually yes.

>It's as scripted as an enemy's AI.

But player's actions aren't scripted.

>>15321096

>Tactics fixed some of the issues earlier games have

Tactics are interesting at the very start and later its the same fight over and over again.

>>15315960

>morrowind

>game

It's literally rolling the dice for combat and pressing LMB to unlock boring text. It's as much of a game as any VN.

>>15316025

(you) =/= not sucking cock all day long

>>15315960

Do you not understand that ROLE PLAYING game means? It's literally a game of pretend. The gameplay is only there to support the story, not the other way around. Story, quests, and lore ARE the game, while combat, levelling, and mechanics only exists to complement them.

>>15316042

Nigger

>>15321911

This, op is a gigantic faggot.

RPGs are based on P&P RPGs where the stats are there for the purpose of conflict resolution. The main focus is on playing the roles. There's a reason "rollplaying" is derogatory.

sounds like you enjoy MMOs more than traditionally RPGs

Why do people enjoy things that take intellectual application

Because "this asshole randomly wandered around and beat people up" isn't a very interesting tale of adventure? There's no overarching conflict, no rises and falls, no context to why you're doing what you're doing. Let's take Morrowind, for example. The main quest is about you overcoming the hardships of fulfilling a prophecy and killing a living god that threatens the entire continent, if not the world. That's not just a story you're reading, but a story you're a part of. It's you that defeated the Sixth House. It's you' that retrieved Sunder and Keening. And, while you did all that, you explored the setting and its history, discovered the betrayal of the Tribunal, learned how corrupt the Temple had become, and saw the conflict between the Empire and much of Morrowind's native population. How do you fail to see why people find that more interesting than a basic power fantasy of just going around and killing everything that looks at you wrong?

>>15321747

EPIC XD

>>15321911

>>15321990

I think you both are absolutely wrong. A role taken by a player in the video game is defined by both narrative and numerical values. The character's name, face, and background story are the narrative aspect of the character while stats define their abilities. Without dynamic stats, there would be no such thing as creating the role of your character in the game, abilities and progression would be handled by the game rather than your own decision, and stats can only be dynamic through number crunching.

>The gameplay is only there to support the story, not the other way around.

Then what would distinguish it from cinematic games with predefined playable character or CYOA interactive novels? No, I've never said it's the other way around, but rather, both of them should support and compliment each other. Gameplay should emerge from the story and story should emerge from the gameplay, I think this is the common rule of both tabletop and video game RPG. If this wasn't the case then neither of them would have a set of rules.

>Story, quests, and lore ARE the game

>combat, levelling, and mechanics only exists to complement them

The later is the character you roleplay as while the former is the world they're living in. They're both integral to each other, none should outweigh the other.

>>15322009

I like an RPG where I'm free to do anything not just with the world but with my character. MMO is pretty paperthin on both for the sake of balancing. I prefer the likes of Daggerfall and other roguelikes where you're allowed to become anything according to your volition, quests shouldn't be necessary for the built and growth of your character. Because it's an RPG game, I should be able to opt to play a strong independent character. Mount and Blade is pretty good too, but it's very grindy like an MMO.

>>15322022

Video game RPG isn't a subgenre of tabletop RPG. Inspired by it maybe, but definitely not a subgenre.

>>15322532

The context? You want to become more powerful. You don't chase a career in real life because some bad guy is taking over the world. I love how context is just a background drop for Daggerfall and the rest of TES series, you can choose to play your own game rather than playing theirs.

>>15322260

Fallout never had grey characters. It was written by a leftist, of course it was black&white. Yes, that includes your shitty FO1 and FO2 games. The only thing that distinguishes between modern fallouts and older fallouts is basically the 3D graphics. Everything was and continues to be shit, albeit in different ways.

>>15324831

>You want to become more powerful.

Not all of us are Saiyans or evil overlords.

>>15324831

>Video game RPG isn't a subgenre of tabletop RPG. Inspired by it maybe, but definitely not a subgenre.

not that guy but i disagree, many video game RPGs still use a dice system to simulate the randomness of a pnp game.

>>15324843

RPG should serve the options to become anything including those.

>>15324903

Heavily inspired, but definitely not the same and not the subdivision of it. Without fully interactable living and breathing NPC's and dungeon masters, it's an entirely different medium of roleplaying. Dice system still exists because it's hard to simulate certain events and their relation with your character's status and proficiency.

>>15316072

Morrowind has terrible quests. It's either walk to a town and click the hyperlinks, escort someone who gets stuck in a rock or go in the copy pasted dungeons and get a macguffin.

>>15325056

It's very dull to walk 30 minutes across the world just to talk to some guy who gives you another quest to walk 30 minutes to talk to some dude. The combat is terrible too.You either grind for a week to run faster than a snail and hit stuff in an extremely basic combat system or you break the game and become so powerful everything is pointless.

>>15325018

CRPGs are literally tabletop RPG programs; 2e and BG for example.

>>15325099

Yes but some things just cannot be simulated by a Computer and the core of PnP is the human element.

>>15325084

>walk 30 minutes

There are a lot of fast travel methods, and NPC's stay in their place so you don't have to worry about not finding them.

>grind for a week

Steal the grand soul gem and other expensive gems from balmora mages guild, sell every gem but the grand gem to the mudcrab merchant, use it and the money to enchant an exquisite clothes with fortify strength, and it's gonna be a breeze from there on. There are a ton of ways and possibilities in upgrading your character.

>or you break the game and become so powerful everything is pointless

RPG isn't entirely about combat. It's your choice to become a god.

>>15325018

>>15325113

>muh human element means it's not the same thing

get a load of this fuckboy

>>15325145

>I wrote something in greentext does this mean I fit in now?

jej

>>15325150

how dare you jej in my presence

>>15325132

>In Skyrim, after killing the first dragon, you virtually can acquire the most powerful gears in the game without doing any quest anymore. In Morrowind, you can be a 50000 strength battlemage fresh off the boat.

>when power armor training is hidden behind 100 lockpick and dozens of long quests

>Steal the grand soul gem and other expensive gems from balmora mages guild(…)

Did you actually explore and discover those things in-game or did you just look up hints on how to get get strong fast?

It's looking to me that you care less about role playing and more about just getting the biggest numbers as fast as possible just to for the sake of it.

Sure there's "Sword of Akatoth" or whatever on the top a a certain mountain, but no matter what role you'd be playing, it wouldn't make sense to fucking go straight for some mountain a character would've never heard about and instantly become godlike. The real roleplaying way of finding that shit would be trough NPCs dialogue and lore shit or stuff like that, that's why people tend to care about that.

Of course some stuff is locked behind quests, it makes sense for them not to be just laying around for free pickings. Sometimes you have to do specific things to get specific rewards and it's completely reasonable.

>>15325189

>game allows you to get most powerful gear off the bat

It's a shit game design at its finest.

>>15325189

If you hate metagaming, roguelike is the only way. I don't hate metagaming, if I could metagame in real life I'd do it too. I mean, it's just a video game. After a bunch of playthroughs, you wouldn't even need a guide to know the game's secrets that the character isn't supposed to know yet.

>>15325269

>if I could metagame in real life I'd do it too

But you can. You're just lazy. You know blacks will chimp out, you know jews destabilize countries for profit, the only thing stopping you is changing your lifestyle and putting in the footwork to making it happen. Ask a friend or a family member to introduce you to the most powerful person they know personally, perhaps a boss. Offer them a favor in the future, in return for them taking you to the most powerful person they know. Repeat.

>>15325269

Wtf are you even talking about?

Are you just talking about looking up stuff instead of finding them out by yourself?

If so, then you just need to do it. Roguelikes have nothing to do with that, even those have preferred strategies and hidden tricks that you discover with time.

What I'm saying is that discovering the shit in-game is part of the roleplaying. Finding out secrets like that that should be hidden behind questlines or days of exploring is like looking up solutions to puzzles. You're skipping on a big part of roleplaying in just to get optimal combat capabilities. You might as well cheat in the strongest gear and just kill everything from the start without having to even reach the weapon's location. I would say it was a valid form of entertainment and you'd be free to do that if you'd prefer to, but the thread is implying that it's what actual RPGs are supposed to be instead of complex adventures within intricate settings, and that's where I say it's wrong.

So OP is basically the brainlet that plays videogames as a power fantasy but isn't smart enough to be able to process a story and has some sense of misplaced superiority about it.

>>15325313

>But you can.

Unless you can perfectly foresee the future, you can't.

>>15325346

>What I'm saying is that discovering the shit in-game is part of the roleplaying.

I get what you mean now, some content should be locked behind quests. Well in Skyrim, it's not like you can build dragonborne weapons from the go, you need to train yourself until you become a master smither first. What I said is you can do all that without doing a quest, not without the character's effort.

>>15325400

I'm just not interested in wholly predefined storytelling.

>>15325269

It's not too different having to train yourself to get a high stat than doing an errand to get a thing. You need to kill a certain amount of enemies to level your stat and you have to kill a certain amount of enemies to get a quest done, the difference is that to get your stat up you need to use a certain weapon, and to get the quest done you need to kill a certain enemy. It's basically the same, you just seem to be autistically biased against quests for some reason.

Note that some games do quest very badly, as in most MMOs, where quests are the main source of EVERYTHING in the game, EXP, gold and gear. You're basically forced to follow the main questline completely from start to finish, with no option to skip any that don't interest you(since they're all you can do to advance in any way). It's the quest and overall game design that is bad, not the concept of quests.

>I'm just not interested in wholly predefined storytelling.

Yet the predefined loot and skilltree/recipes are just fine, to the point of looking up how predefined they are to get them sooner.

Yeah, nah, Mr "I would metagame IRL but I can't because I can't foresee the future".

>>15325400

I agree with OP, and it's pretty simple. I can appreciate a good story, but a story is not something you do. It's something you consume. It's very rare to get a game with great game play and a good story. But I'd take a bad story with good game play over a good story with bad game play any day.

>>15325678

The thing is that they aren't mutually exclusive, both are fun in their own way, no matter which one you prefer. OP is saying that it's only fun to mess around with the game's mechanics and get stronger, while participating in stories and interacting with NPCs is not. While in RPGs, games about playing roles, participating in story is one of the key parts of it.

Also:

>a story is not something you do. It's something you consume.

That is true for most mediums, but not necessarily for video-games. In well designed games, you PLAY A ROLE in the story, participate in it and impact it in many ways.

>>15325602

This pretty much nails it.

Though in a more fair world where good design was more common we could add to Doing it Right:

>The skills/stats you have affect what quests you run across and which ones you have to complete

>Sometimes not doing the quest is a valid option, or otherwise passing it along to someone more qualified for good or for ill

The first one was the biggest thing that pissed me off for Skyrim. Playing a Khajit for my first playthrough and being stopped I thought 'oh, well they've given my character a reason to be allowed in this hold but i'll need to do things to be allowed in the other ones because they don't like me' only for that to be completely wrong.

The second one was basically made the Minuitemen in FO4 unbearable. Modern game design treating you like a one man army robs the chance of something like finding a reliable npc that you can send out for other tasks you would rather see done, but would rather not have to solve every problem in the world yourself.

And for doing it wrong I ask to add:

>NPCs that are just 2 dialogue options and a quest

>>15315960

>you'd rather see stats that don't do much go up and play dress up than do anything in the game

I can be an overpowered character in any old game, the lore and story give context that makes it more satisfying to play and eventually become overpowered.

>>15316025

>its not role play in a video game sense

Look up the definition of role play and tell me where it says that it requires stat leveling.

>>15325602

>>15325749

>quests always play out the same way/have the same binary choices at the end

Binary choices are still choices.

>your skills don't matter except for making combat end faster

No, it does matter sometimes, some quests require you a high enough stat to enter, like the wintherhold college entrance test, thieves guild test, and summoning a dremora lord to bring you a sigil's stone. In a combat, skills do determine your survivability, just because the normal difficulty is too low for you doesn't mean they don't.

>you can always complete the quest no matter what

Not sure which quests, but I've failed some of them.

See? Skyrim still qualifies as a CRPG, even though quests and combat aren't it's greatest strength.

You need to hear from the veteran to understand what the meaning of CRPG is. It's not entirely about story and choice making, but also player's movement through the world.

http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-is-crpg.html

http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2012/07/new-master-game-list-what-is-crpg.html

http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2010/04/ranking-and-rating-crpgs.html

>>15325631

>It's not too different having to train yourself to get a high stat than doing an errand to get a thing.

>You need to kill a certain amount of enemies to level your stat and you have to kill a certain amount of enemies to get a quest done, the difference is that to get your stat up you need to use a certain weapon, and to get the quest done you need to kill a certain enemy.

No, there are actually a lot more open ended choices involved in leveling up your skills. Would you want to grind or would you want to level up your skills naturally? Would you pay for a trainer or would you grind for free? Your weapon and magic skill level up faster when you inflict more damage, how do you make your character do the most damage output without killing the enemy too fast or putting yourself in too much danger? Your alchemy skill level up faster the more valuable the potion is, where would you search for the ingredients and recipes for highly valuable potions? What's the most efficient crafting product to level up your smithing?

Just a few of them.

>>15325803

>I can be an overpowered character in any old game

No you can't.

>Look up the definition of role play and tell me where it says that it requires stat leveling.

I can roleplay in any game, but an RPG would have to take it on a higher level. Zork isn't an RPG.

I'm bumping my own thread.

>>15325678

>>15325747

What I'm telling the video game medium is the best at communicating through numbers and visual response. Books are best at communicating with the audience through words, music through tonal sounds, movies through both visuals and sounds, and just like books movies and music, video game is it's own medium.

>>15325747

>The thing is that they aren't mutually exclusive, both are fun in their own way

Except they are retard. Games are about GAMEplay first. They were never meant to tell "stories".

>>15336315

In an RPG like Baldur's Gate the story is essentially part of the gameplay as you make choices that impact the gameplay significantly.

The two combined should compliment one and other if the game is well made.

>>15324839

>Fallout never had grey characters

I can't imagine playing through FO2 and never going to Vault City or Frisco. I didn't even know it was possible.

>>15315960

>making choices and building a character are just part of CYOA games

I see you've never played Tabletop RPGs… you know the games that inspired modern RPGs?