/v/ - Video Games

>>15264918

they're all shit

>>15264918

They were busy getting high and getting strippers and hookers to entertain them when they were on their rock star phase.

They were good in their specific team roles, but failed when they tried performing other roles. Doom 3 is a competent horror game, but a very poor follow up to the previous titles. RAGE was really mediocre, especially due to the hype surrounding it. Daikatana was a fucking disaster that the other two cannot compare to in the slightest. It was straight up broken and completely crashed, while RAGE and Doom 3 were at least profitable. Daikatana being a disaster also fucked with the final development stages of Deus Ex to add insult to injury. No contest OP.

>>15264918

>Were Doom and Quake just a one hit wonder?

Well considering that's two things, that'd make them a two-hit wonder.

As for Quake, it was an absolutely retarded mishmash of ideas that never properly mixed, with space marines touting lazer guns, knights swingings swords around, monsters, and lovecraftian horrors all competing for attention but never quite gelling together believably, and then it all got dropped in Quake 2 harder than Jack Carver was from the entire Far Cry franchise.

As many ideas as there were for Doom, the end product at least felt like every piece of the whole belonged, but goddamn Quake was a fucking mess. Literally the only good thing about Quake was how impressive the 3D technology was and how much further ahead of the competition it was in that regard, but Quake 2 came out not long after and did just about everything it possibly could have done better on top of feeling like an actual finished product with a unified vision for what it was supposed to be.

Too bad Quake 2 was absolutely hideous in terms of art design, and I will be forever mentally scarred by the phrase "computer updated."

>>15264918

>Were Doom and Quake just a one hit wonder?

Did you not read Master's of Doom? The two developed dozens of games together beyond Doom/Quake.

Master's of Doom explains that after Quake Carmack lost interest in making game engines because he was just tweaking what he already made not actually inventing anything new. With Quake he had to basically reinvent so many concepts he had already pioneered with Doom. (With Doom he had already basically invented the concept of using BSP with game engines. Something that's still used today). Master's of Doom predicted Carmack would leave Id software back in 2003 because of his apathy he described.

Quake in many ways completely destroyed Id software despite being among their most popular games. You can see for example every subsequent version of Doom was more horror focused. Doom PS1 had colored lighting and a more ambient soundtrack instead of the midi heavy metal tracks. Doom 64 was a remake of the original with a way more horror atmosphere. And Doom 3 was also a remake but was a straight up horror game with action elements.

Not a lot of people know this but Romero leaving Id and forming Ion Storm is the only reason we got Deus Ex. Romero brags about this in interviews a lot and Warren Spector also confirmed it. Specifically Warren Spector wanted to make Deus Ex but no studio would give him funding. Romero let him have a studio and basically gave him unlimited funding to make Deus Ex. It was also the only successful game Ion storm ever produced.

>>15265038

>Quake was a fucking mess. Literally the only good thing about Quake was how impressive the 3D technology was and how much further ahead of the competition it was in that regard

> Quake 2 came out not long after and did just about everything it possibly could have done better on top of feeling like an actual finished product with a unified vision for what it was supposed to be.

Quake 2 is a vastly inferior game to the original in every regard. The art style and gameplay of Quake 1 were vastly superior and aged far better. It's no wonder that game still has a very active mapping scene.

Not a lot of people are aware of just the sheer amount of things Quake pioneered beyond it's engine. Like its use of a console was so groundbreaking that it appeared in Doom sourceports and engine ports of other games that lacked one. It appeared in so many games after Quake that now the console is ubiquitous with game design

It also was the game that would indirectly cause WSAD to be a thing as it's widely agreed upon WSAD was popularized by a Quake tournament where a guy won Carmack's car. The guy who won it used WSAD which lead to his cfg file being shared around and eventually made an option in Quake 2 and default in Half-Life. After Counter Strike also had it as default it was the gold standard for FPS games but after World of Warcraft made it default it was the default in basically every game after that.

The implementation of mouse aiming in Quake was also extremely groundbreaking and even at the time and after there were games that didn't quite have mouse aiming as good as Quake. While it wasn't the first game to use mouse look it's really polished implementation of it really caused every FPS to copy it after that.

The multiplayer to Quake 1 was also really good by accident, Carmack said it was a "happy accident" because development was entirely focused on singleplayer. The reason why Q1's MP took off so much was because of how well designed the initial multiplayer maps were, the weapons of the game were extremely skill based since only 3 were hitscan (the shotgun, double shotgun and Lightning gun, the lightning gun was considered a super weapon that you had to obtain and came with limited ammo). All the bread and butter guns could be dodged and required some measure of skill to use. This was relatively unheard of at the time especially compared to Doom where once you had the SSG it was an "i win" gun that you just had to vaguely aim in an opponent's direction and one-shot them.

>>15264918

>Which one was the bigger fuckup?

<Doom 3 was an outstanding game, but just a terrible Doom title

<Rage is just boring

<Daikatana is outright broken

What do you think?

>>15265086

>Did you not read Master's of Doom?

The book written by this asshole?

https://archive.fo/jIvYg

>>15264918

Both are hacks who lucked out on creating one mediocre game whose popularity has gotten its through its mediocrity and got them filthy rich.

>>15265205

Master's of Doom is a really well researched and insightful book about John Romero and John Carmack's personal histories. It gives you a very clear picture as to their personalities and how different they were. It also reveals a lot of intimate details about why Romero was forced to resign from Id Software and the turmoil of Daikatana's development history.

@15265211

You're not getting my (You)

>>15264918

Carmack only makes the engines and Romero is an old school developer. Doom was such a huge success that it went to Romero's head and he thought he could lead his own studio and it ended in failure but that's life. Neither are hacks and you're a faggot.

>>15265075

Well games do take years to complete. Unless he blabbed on about some sorta release date around the time the game was being kickstarted, I might have hop.

>>15265220

The book tells mostly the same story but sheds a lot more context behind it. Like it also says Romero was the reason why Id licensed out the Doom engine to other companies and that Carmack saw it as a huge waste of time and another distraction from Quake.

It also has a surprising amount of other history behind some of the other devs. Like Adrian Carmack's background where he was a forensic artist who painted dead bodies before working on Doom. Sandy Petersen's history as the creator of the Call of Cthulhu tabletop rpg, which caused him to add Lovecraft elements to Doom and Quake and was the one who came up with the idea of making the shotgun "satisfying". It also went into the history of DWANGO the multiplayer service that Doom used and the history of American McGee. Like how he was abandoned by his mother so she could live with a transsexual and how he only got hired at Id because he lived in the same building as Carmack and Carmack once saw him working on his car outside his window.

>>15265086

>The two developed dozens of games together beyond Doom/Quake.

I see, but none of them quite have a lasting power. Maybe Commander Keen did back in the day, but barely anyone knows about it nowadays. My point is, Quake and Doom were the games that changed history, and after that game the two barely had anything under their belt.

>It also was the game that would indirectly cause WSAD to be a thing

But it didn't invent wsad. Castle Wolfenstein was the inventor of WSAD (with the addition of QEZXC for diagonal movement) and System Shock I believe was the first FPS game to not use the directional keypad, instead it used SZXC.

>The implementation of mouse aiming in Quake was also extremely groundbreaking

No, Quake's mouse aiming wasn't even the default setting. By default, it had the Doom archaic controls with the ability to look up and down using pgup and pgdn, which wasn't much needed because there's a vertical autoaim. The first action FPS game to have mouselook by default was Terminator System Shock.

>even at the time and after there were games that didn't quite have mouse aiming as good as Quake

>While it wasn't the first game to use mouse look it's really polished implementation of it really caused every FPS to copy it after that.

Terminator's mouseaim is better than Quake's, it's smoother and you can even shoot your own feet if you aim too low. On top of that Future Shock invented grenade button, which wasn't used by any other game before Halo.

Quake 1 had a good engine, smooth movement physics, and pioneered the competitive LAN multiplayer scene, but beyond that fanboys are giving it way too much credit. It wasn't nearly as influential as Wolfenstein 3D and Doom.

>>15265242

Sounds interesting, I'll read it.

>>15265205

<Doom 3 was an outstanding game

Doom 3 was the epitome of bad FPS design. It copied System Shock 2 without even knowing what makes SS2 fun. It had no inventory management, no RPG stats and progression, and really unresponsive gunplay. The flashlight mechanic would be a good addition to survival horror gameplay, but unfortunately Doom 3 didn't have any survival mechanic, it was just a barebone action FPS without any feature that should exist in a survival horror game. It failed as a horror game and an action game.

>>15265226

Carmack's engines post Quake 3 weren't even that good. IdTech 4 wasn't as good as Source and idTech 5 had a fucked up texturing system. He has lost his touch.

>>15265267

idtech4 was a lot better than source.

>>15265267

>It had no inventory management, no RPG stats

And thank fuck for that!

DOOM³ is a fantastic sci-fi survival horror game - fight me faggots.

>>15265267

see

>>15265275

underage faggots don't realize Source has been continuously updated over a decade and a half while id Tech wasn't. At the time Id Tech 4 destroyed Source. IIRC the original release of Half-Life 2 had no dynamic lighting for example

>>15265275

>>15265284

For indoor environment only maybe, it had a new lighting system that was definitely superior to Source, but the character models are fucked. Also compared to how flexible IdTech 2 and 3 were, tech 4 is laughable.

>>15265287

the megatexture technology is underrated and people still don't get what it is. It's not about fuckhuge retard textures, it's about artists being able to blend and paint textures extremely quickly, allowing designers to make levels that feel very unique with a lot of little details. At the time the only way to do this was to hand place assets in levels and the only other engines experimenting with a similar technology was cryengine 3 and its implementation was a lot more limited and worked more like displacement blending instead of manipulating geometry and texture assets like brushes in photoshop.

>but muh filesizes

rage was 20gb and 2 years later gta5 was 65gb.

>>15265301

>but the character models are fucked

models had nothing to do with the engine. elaborate what you mean.

>compared to how flexible IdTech 2 and 3 were, tech 4 is laughable.

>being able to go from editing a map to in game with the press of a button, no compiling, is less flexible

idtech4 was more flexible. You're just spouting buzzwords.

>>15265301

>flexible IdTech 2 and 3

Id tech 2/3 didn't have skeletal animation support by default. The same year Quake 2 released Valve released Half-Life which had skeletal animations.

Raven for example had to create their own skeletal animation system as well as write their own scripting language for Star Trek Voyager Elite Force. They had to do this because Id Tech 3 was so bare bones at the time and was just a multiplayer game engine. By comparison at the time Unreal had Unrealscript, and its level editor UnrealEd let you open pre-made maps. With Id Tech 2/3 you had to use a fanmade decompilation utility which broke numerous things with maps.

>>15265334

>2013 engine

Why are you being a faggot? You know that Source is a 2003 engine.

Doom 3 isn't mechanically bad in any way in fact tech wise it solidly used a bunch of new shit and for the gen looked damn good, just level design wise is fucked, I feel someone could redesign the game to be more action focus'd and it'd be damn solid.

Rage and Daikatana though are both straight busted messes, though rage less so but it's still just a bad gam.

in terms of quality.

Doom 3 > Rage > Daikatana

>>15265353

>I feel someone could redesign the game to be more action focus'd and it'd be damn solid.

People have done that with mods. This was probably the best attempt.

https://www.moddb.com/mods/overthinked-doom3

>>15265350

you know the source engine used in hl2 retail 2004 is a different source engine used in cs go circa 2018, right? Feel free to never post again you retarded fuck.

>>15265359

>doubles down on the survival side of the game

NGL I'm interested, downloading it for later.

>>15265359

That actually looks fun

>>15265361

And why would they add polygon hit detection 10 years later?

>>15264918

Romero was a pretty good designer, he just didn't know shit about running a company. Daikatana was actually pretty well designed and would have been a solid 8/10 if the programming and QA teams weren't so horribly mismanaged.

>>15265377

they never did you stupid fuck, csgo uses pills for hit detection now after two revisions to the old source hitbox system from 2003 (or more accurately from 1996)

>>15265381

I am asking you why would valve bother to add polygon hit detection to their 2003 tried and true engine?

>>15265301

>character models are fucked

>implying character models are at all related to the engine

oh I am laffin

>>15265387

They wouldn't. I'm comparing technology between two competing engines that debuted at the same time.

>>15265394

And now ask yourself why id didn't put that in their engines again.

>>15265387

Because they're still selling their engine, and it still lacks basic features like non-shit hit detection that both of its biggest competitors have had for years.

>>15265402

I don't know, I wasn't a developer on those projects. Do you know if they stopped using it?

>>15264918

>Which one was the bigger fuckup?

DOOM3 was a techdemo first and game second, although at that time it was common in the big popular titles (HL2, Far Cry, Unreal Tournament 03/04), so there is certainly something worthwhile but it's not really the "game" part of the game.

Daikatana was a clusterfuck with a decent game buried into it

RAGE is again a techdemo but this time the tech isn't all that impressive and the hardware it ran on couldn't even sustain it's demands (Pretty much the only game that needed an SSD to run well at the time, even on consoles it makes the game significantly more tolerable visually because the bottleneck was strictly file I/O most of the time) and the game it features is even more derivative and uninspired than DOOM 3

So I'd go with RAGE

>Were Doom and Quake just a one hit wonder?

Contrary to what most people will say to deny this yes.

What Doom had in game play is more than lost in lack of innovation. Where as all Doom clones and non Doom fps had kept innovating, ID software never kept up.

Be real here Doom was a good game but grossly overrated just for influencing the pace of all modern fps to come. The maps are absolute shit and after the Cyber Demon it outright becomes boring. John "Fuck Story" Romero had nothing more envisioned than an arcade game, and because of this Doom got one shining moment and then canonically became the old rock star on drugs who can't get a boner anymore by everyone who played it. Quake should have been Doom 2 frankly, new engine, new potential, new path set for continuation, and frankly I had more fun with Quake than Doom. But after that it was just too far gone and ID died.

To say that Carmack is only a programmer is pretty shallow. He was the one who spearheaded Doom 3, meaning that he was at least partly responsible with the vision of the game. I don't think he's responsible for RAGE other than for the engine though, but I'm sure he was responsible for the prototype Doom 4 though, which was a CoD lite game. Doom is his brainchild.

>>15265310

>it's about artists being able to blend and paint textures extremely quickly, allowing designers to make levels that feel very unique with a lot of little details

Sounds like fuckhuge retard textures to me.

>rage was 20gb

Skyrim was 5gb.

>models had nothing to do with the engine

It has to do with the engine's capability to handle polygons, doesn't it? Doom 3's characters look less detailed than Source games'. I don't know who's at the fault here, the designers or the engine.

>idtech4 was more flexible.

None of tech 4 games is anywhere as huge as Star Wars Dark Forces 2. DF2 uses a modified Quake 2 engine, right?

>>15265837

>Sounds like fuckhuge retard textures to me.

cuz you hear a word and do no research

>Skyrim was 5gb.

it shows

>I don't know who's at the fault here, the designers or the engine.

the modelers

>DF2 uses a modified Quake 2 engine, right?

nope

>>15265837

>None of tech 4 games is anywhere as huge as Star Wars Dark Forces 2. DF2 uses a modified Quake 2 engine, right?

Dark Forces 2 released months before Quake 2. It ran of a proprietary engine called the "sith" engine

>>15265837

>None of tech 4 games is anywhere as huge

Id Tech 4 wasn't licensed out as much as Id Tech 3 as at the time Half-Life 2 was a much more popular game and its engine was seen as a much bigger deal. Hence why a ton of games tried to use the source engine after that. Like Dark Messiah and Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines.

2 years after Id Tech 4 it was already made obsolete by Unreal 3. Which it couldn't compete with at all. Unreal 3 proceeded to consume all engine licensing after that.

The three games that ran on Id Tech 4, Doom 3, Quake 4, and Prey are all good games in their own right it's just the engine released at a very inconvenient time where developers were transitioning toward only using 1 big game engine to make everything with.

>>15266251

>cuz you hear a word and do no research

Regardless of what you say, reused textures are still far more compact than megatexture.

>it shows

Not really when you use the teofis command.

>>15266353

>It ran of a proprietary engine called the "sith" engine

Shit, sith engine is better than anything made by carmack then. The environment is gigantic, the framerate is flawless even on old PC's, and savegames load in an eyeblink on any hardware.

>>15270318

>huge low-poly enviroments & models with low-res textures are not taxing on pcs

wew who would have thought that shitty-looking games are not demaning on pc hardware :)

>>15270333

Maybe carmack's problem is he's a huge graphic slut.

>>15270318

>Shit, sith engine is better than anything made by carmack then

In terms of technology it wasn't on-par with Quake 2 until Mysteries of the Sith. We also never got the source code so we can't really compare the two in terms of how better programmed they were.

>The environment is gigantic

The game has an absurd amount of LOD pop-in where textures would noticeably get more detailed suddenly when you walked toward a wall.

There was also a ton of sneaky under the hood tweaks they made to make the framerate a lot better. A good example is enemies are apparently invisible prior to being triggered in several vanilla levels. Speedrunners for the game exploit this through sequence breaking and finding the level devoid of enemies. This is similar to Serious Sam teleporting in enemies.

>>15264918

Why are carmacks forearms in this photo so swole anons? He looks like he's on roids or something

>>15272668

>guy works alone

>suddenly produces nothing but massive failure

He's a fraud.

>>15272786

Master's of Doom describes that Carmack started lifting weights as a teenager. When he arrived for a job interview at Softdisk people there thought he looked weird because he looked like he never hit puberty but he was ripped.

>>15265075

Romero wasted all the money on acrylic nails and carmack is too busy jerking off to anime VR porn to save him.

>>15265267

>It copied System Shock 2

It copied Half-Life, not System Shock 2

>>15272915

>It copied Half-Life, not System Shock 2

The main similarity it has with Half-Life is the beginning and the way the story opens to the player. After that it's very System Shock 2

>Main character listens to audio logs from people before the events of the game talk about their day to day and foreshadow future events in the story

>The player mostly goes from Point A-> B led by a voice on his radio

>Voice on his radio turns out to actually be evil and reveals himself to the player

>You eventually fight said voice on radio

>>15264918

>Were Doom and Quake just a one hit wonder?

A fallacy. How can two games be a "one hit wonder"?

>>15272950

Plus, both Doom 1 and 2 were good and Quake 1 and 3 are mentioned regularly on /v/, so if anything they're successful series and not successful singular games.

>>15264918

RAGE.

Doom 3 was not a bad game, just a completely different take on Doom (it's an atmospheric horror game with gunfights, not a fast paced shooter and it does it's job perfectly).

Daikatana was stillborn and had to be a failure, everyone that knew his shit back in the day knew it was going to be an epic failure Romero was a designer and a producer… ie a talking head that make other people (typically more talented) do the actual job. He wasn't the first and certainly not the last.

RAGE had everything to be a good game, combat in Rage is actually pretty good when the game gives you a bit more than 3 enemies to work with. But the empty world, the poor map design and retarded story kill the game entirely.

>>15273026

Sgt Kelly tells you where to go for the first half of the game. He eventually tells you that you need to contact Earth so you can send the cavalry over to rescue everyone. But that one guy who arrived at the same time as you tells you that's what the demons want and that you shouldn't do it.

Regardless of your decision Kelly reveals he's actually a demon now and you fight him in a boss fight later.

This is similar to SHODAN pretending to be Janice Polito and ordering you where to go for the first half of SS2 before revealing herself to be an evil AI and eventually fighting her in the last level

>>15265267

>Doom 3 was the epitome of bad FPS design. It copied System Shock 2 without even knowing what makes SS2 fun.

But SS2 is shit, so it stands to reason Doom 3 is shit.

Nothing wrong with Doom 3. It was a different genre than Doomgods were expecting, but that's not a bad thing despite what newfags that weren't even born when we were actually Doomgods would try to have you think.

>>15273290

>Nothing wrong with Doom 3

I unironically think Quake 4 was the better game. Doom 3 had to be fixed by fans to make the guns feel satisfying to use.

>>15273314

48fps for when you wanna be a fag, but not a complete 50fps PALfag

>>15273312

>Half of the guns feel unsatisfying to use

>The pistol does less damage than the player's fists

>The shotgun's spread is so wide it basically does 0 damage if an enemy is more than 5 feet infront of you

>the machine gun sounds like a BB gun

>The chaingun for some reason reloads like half a second when the machine gun has this long drawn out reload anim

>the BFG isn't half as destructive as it was in the originals and you get it so late in the game you end up only using it on the final boss. And you can only kill the final boss with the soul cube so what's the point.

The only weapons that felt like they should've was the plasma gun and the chainsaw.

This wouldn't normally be an issue but this is Doom we're talking about. The original had really satisfying to use guns.

I still don't really get what id was going for with Doom 3. Turning an action-focused shooter into a slow-paced horror game is a dogshit idea.

>>15273391

Carmack's idea for the original game was a more atmospheric horror game. You can also see how every console port of Doom tried to add to this. Like the PS1 version removed the original OST and had ambient music and moody lighting. The N64 port was a remake of the original just with different levels and a more bleak and oppressive tone etc.

All the original designers had different ideas as to what the game should be. Romero wanted a balls to the wall action game similar to Wolfenstein 3D. Carmack wanted an atmospheric horror game. Tom Hall wanted a character and story driven game and even wrote a massive tome called the Doom bible that compiled all of the story and characters etc.

One reason why the flashlight was added to Doom 3 was clearly to show off the lighting effects of the game. And you can see with the BFG edition they made it a toggle but this actually ruins a lot of the tone and atmosphere of the game. There's a level in particular where you have to follow this bright light through a dark area with a ton of enemies everywhere and it's made trivial with the toggle flashlight

>>15273417

>Carmack's idea for the original game was a more atmospheric horror game.

So? The final product was still an action-focused shooter, not a horror game. When the first 5 games of your series are well respected action shooters, it makes no sense to then shift genre completely with the 6th installment.

Also

>The N64 port was a remake of the original just with different levels and a more bleak and oppressive tone etc

Doom 64 was a sequel, not a remake.

>DOOM 3

Decent horror FPS

>RAGE

Bland forgettable semi-linear FPS but not 'bad' per se

>Daikatana

One of the worst FPS games ever made and marketed. Definitely the worst of the trio.

>>15273478

>When the first 5 games of your series are well respected action shooters, it makes no sense to then shift genre completely with the 6th installment.

Go play Counter Strike if you want 20 years of the exact same faggotry, nigger.

>>15273482

>One of the worst FPS games ever made

That's just a meme. It was mediocre but not awful. The worst level was the swamp which unfortunately was what they used in the demo, and other than superfly getting his BBC stuck in a door it wasn't that frustrating to play. The aggressive buildup had left everyone hoping to see Romero fall on his ass so the jeering was at tortanic levels when it released like a fart.

>>15273516

I'm not asking for the exact same thing, I'm asking for Doom 3 to keep the general gunplay of the original while adding new weapons and enemies like Doom 2 did.

>>15265601

quake was doom though. i've said this before in other threads, but big a part of why doom was so huge was because of the multiplayer. quake was giving the people what they wanted

>>15273482

Daikatana with the fan patch that fixes bugs and allows you to play without allies is an average late 90s/early 00s FPS. I had more fun with it than the majority of shooters I've played that have been released in the last decade.

>>15273539

>but big a part of why doom was so huge was because of the multiplayer.

But it was mostly popular for the singleplayer game, most people didn't even have internet when it came out.

I still do like Quake a little bit better that Doom, though : The level design is more consistently good in Quake, Doom 1's level design just goes to shit halfway through and Doom 2's first 7 levels are the only good ones in the entire game. Quake on the other hand is well designed across all chapters with levels being decent at worst, amazing at best.

>>15273538

>while adding new weapons and enemies like Doom 2 did.

>weapons

You mean weapon and a broken one at that. The shotgun was overused enough already in the first game, now it's even viable against the most powerful enemies in the game, you have a shotgun out 99% of the time now.

>enemies

All of the new enemies were terrible and annoying as fuck to fight aside from the revenant.

>>15271845

>LOD pop-in

Never experienced that. Idk, maybe I'm not observant enough. Everything looks seamless to me.

>There was also a ton of sneaky under the hood tweaks they made to make the framerate a lot better.

It's worth it I guess. The engine might not be as advanced as Quake 2 engine, but the gunplay and movement system are much better, and despite the tweaks, they're sneaky enough to not affect the enjoyment unless you're a speedrunning tranny.

>>15272786

He's not even big. He looks pretty healthy when he was young, but doesn't look like someone who lifts at all. He's a manlet and manlets have stubby bones, that's all. Do you guys never lift or something.

>>15272992

>>15273290

>>15273417

>Doom 3 wasn't bad

It's actually really bad. The gun animation and sounds are weak, the recoil system is weak, enemies don't have damage response, enemy count is extremely low, bodies immediately disappear, most levels are cramped corridors that don't allow much movement, the ragdoll physics are almost nonexistent, and the mechanics are boring compared to other slow paced shooters. The reason why System Shock 1 and 2 are loved despite being slow paced corridor shooters is because they implemented a lot more complexity than just shooting and picking up bullets. The reason why Doom 1 is loved despite being simplistic is because it's a fast paced action game that focuses on creating and enjoyable combat rather than complex management system. Doom 3 has none of the strengths of these two games, only the weaknesses. And beyond that, the enemies and setting aren't scary enough to make it a remotely acceptable horror game, it's just a boring flashlight simulator. Compare it to how gripping Condemned, Fatal Frame, and Call of Cthulu were, Doom 3's horror is laughable.

Rage, while is boring, actually has a competent shooting mechanics unlike Doom 3.

>>15273582

>You mean weapon and a broken one at that. The shotgun was overused enough already in the first game, now it's even viable against the most powerful enemies in the game, you have a shotgun out 99% of the time now.

You lose your weapons whenever you die and the SS is not put in many levels, meaning that you can only use it for a short while unless you manage to get through the rest of the game without dying once.

>All of the new enemies were terrible and annoying as fuck to fight aside from the revenant.

The enemies were badly placed, they weren't bad on their own.

Doom 2 is a shit game because of the awful level design, not because of the things it added.

>>15273636

>You lose your weapons whenever you die

Which is made irrelevant because you can save your game

>>15273640

Wolfenstein 3D does this too. It's really silly how these old games were made. Or does the nightmare mode not allow saving?

>>15264918

Doom 3 and Daikatana are alright games though.

Not great games, but as FPS goes they are still better than 95% of the shovelware released today or around the same timeframe.

>>15273640

>>15273649

>Savescumming

You disgust me

I can't be the only one who unironically liked Doom 3 ?

>>15273675

nah

DOOM 3 is way better than I thought it would be, since everyone always goes out of their way to shit on it really hard. The level layout, although way more linear compared to 1 and 2 is really well done, every room feels unique and memorable, it's very easy to remember where everything is/where to go. The lighting is absolutely fantastic, it sets the mood so perfectly, I've stopped quite a few times just to sit there and admire it, this is a 13 year old game by the way. The encounter design is pretty good for the most part, it doesn't have ridiculous enemy counts, but that was really only a thing in DOOM 2 and Slaughtermaps. It makes up for it by making the enemies take more damage, which gives it more of a Quake type feel which I really like, it also makes the enemies feel more intimidating.

I didn't mind checking the PDA since I went into the game with the mindset of playing a more slower paced action horror game instead of 3D DOOM 2 and I felt it did a good job of getting me more immersed. Having to switch to the flashlight didn't seem like much of an issue either, having to choose between sight and being offensively prepared made things really interesting, and checking an enemies position then wildly firing into the dark was fun and tense. The monster closets and ambushes are only a problem if you play with a controller or suck at FPS in general, you have a mouse so you should be able to reliably 180 in a split second. Enemy type variety is great and put to really good use, but they do have a few flaws. They teleport in way too slow, its extremely easy to just walk up and blast the fuck out of them before they can do anything.

Weapons sound great and feel satisfying to use, the game also encourages you to switch it up constantly, though the shotgun does still see more use than others unfortunately. I'd say it does deserve the title of DOOM, if they got rid of the PDA, bumped up the movement speed and opened the levels up a bit more it really wouldn't feel that different from playing 1. Also I played with pm_walkspeed 300 and used the sprint for my walk key lol.

>>15273675

No, but I absolutely don't understand the mindset of Doom 3 fans. It's a tech demo with mediocre gameplay in every way. I thought return to castle wolfenstein was overrated, but doom 3 ramped up the mediocrity.

>>15273717

>I thought return to castle wolfenstein was overrated

because you're a shit head. rtcw is one of the greatest multiplayer games of all time. if you missed it back in the day you can't judge it. rtcw was all about the multiplayer. the single player campaign was the tutorial

>>15273745

I mean, the campaign was decent for the most part, the guns themselves are ok, but the gunplay was terrible because the enemies are bullet sponges with no damage response. It really seems that the game was designed to be a multiplayer. I can see it being a good multiplayer, but there should've been a way of telling you that your shots hit the enemies if you're going with the damage sponge design.

>>15273696

>Weapons sound great and feel satisfying to use, the game also encourages you to switch it up constantly, though the shotgun does still see more use than others unfortunately.

You did not play Doom 3.

>>15273696

>>15273838

How do you cope with the terrible gunplay?

>>15273843

The pistol and submachine gun sound weak which is intentional, for the pistol it's to incentivize you to get more powerful weapons and signifies its place as the weakest in the arsenal, for the submachine gun it's to make it's replacement, the chaingun, feel even more powerful in comparison. Other than that the weapons sounded pretty good, the chaingun especially with its bassy thump with every shot.

>>15273843

Going by a number of the discussions I've seen on the subject, the only people who I complain about Doom 3's weapons being "underpowered" didn't realize that the demons glow in the dark, and do not want to admit that they cannot aim for shit.

>>15273889

None of the weapon sounds are intentional, go look at the previews which had far better weapon sounds. For some reason id had some issues between them and Trent Reznor (who initially was doing sound), resulting in all of his work being scrapped at the last moment to be replaced with crap.

>>15273947

No one said they were underpowered. They sound underpowered though, and the shotgun has a joke range.

>>15265075

Died

He was just blowing out his ass and pulled the plug when reality clashed with his (((vision)))

Doom 3 is easily the worst doom/id game.

I have no desire to ever play it again and I never even finished it sucked ass

I'd rather play Dai Katana honestly. Doom 3 wasn't interesting/too short/too easy to both with once more and RAGE was just bland entirely

>>15264918

Daikatana was legendarily bad. Doom 3 was at least a competent engine that they later used to make good games, and Rage was pretty middle of the road "i've played worse". but daikatana, fuck man, i mean literally legendary in how bad it is. people still talk about what daikatana did to ion storm, what it did to romero, and what it did to serve as the earliest recorded example of "never ever get hype for a game"

>>15264918

Daikatana, since it was the only game that didn't get a sequel. If we're talking about the games themselves, then i'd say Rage. It was a shitty Borderlands knockoff that somehow had less content than the game about killing the same goon in a hockey mask hundreds of times.

>>15275145

>uses TOR to ban evade

>calls others impotent

>>15273865

Any game can be fast paced if you want it to be imo.

>>15275145

Powerful...

>>15275300

keep this autism outta this thred

>>15275300

People who use TOR usually don't know about other VPNs and use it because it's what the cool kids on the dark web use. They're the same type of people that use uTorrent or VLC media player.

>>15275310

He's probably saging because he's going off topic.

>>15275353

Who allowed such a faggot as this here?

At least DOOM 3 had a nifty dungeon crawling mod.

https://www.moddb.com/mods/dungeondoom

Check the comments for the download link.

>>15264918

Doom 3 is an enjoyable game with some sweet looking graphics that hold up to this day, the only problem with it is that it wasn't really a sequel to Doom, it was more System Shock. It was a much better game than say Half Life 2 which came out around the same time.

Daikatana is a great 90s fps that is really satisfying to play. Due to being way ahead of its time with AIs that help the player it became more of a retarded AI babysitting simulator than a FPS at times but when it worked it was amazing. A shitton of weapons, thematically different levels and a good aesthetic makes this game a hidden gem.

Rage was kind of like a reverse Singularity. Singularity took the trends of its day and blended eventing that was successful into the quintessential game of the era. Rage took everything that was cancer and put it into one shooter.

>>15275790

I'm not the one I made that mod. But it was something I found a while back. Kind of interesting to play since he managed to change the AI of the enemies, like having the maggots use run and group tactics.

>>15275831

Understood. I just don't like to touch anyone else's projects.

>>15277393

It was also afaik Raven's first PC first person shooter to not have a level editor. Which wasn't impossible to do with UE3

>>15274609

>the shotgun has a joke range

You mean you're suprised when a short range weapon is only effective at short range?

How can one meme such as sorlag fat+vore lusting become such a thing in cuck/arena/?

>>15278148

>You mean you're suprised when a short range weapon is only effective at short range?

The shotgun in Doom 3 basically does no damage once you get 5 feet away from the target. It's a pathetic range for the gun. The shotgun in the original Doom actually had a really reasonable range for the gun.

>>15278649

its almost like the weapon is designed to fill an archetype because that works a lot better for a game designed around corridors and works better for games in general

realismfags fucking kill yourselves, you're cancer to game design

>>15278649

>muh realism

Fuck off. The GAMEPLAY function of the shotgun in a VIDEO GAME is being a powerful short range single attack with a cooldown in between to help balance it. Realistic shotguns would make the majority of weapons irrelevant, it was bad enough in DOOM and made even fucking worse in DOOM 2 with the super shotgun. DOOM 3 is exactly what a video game shotgun should be, excellent up close, fucking worthless otherwise, which forces you to switch to a different weapon, which makes the gameplay more interesting. Using one weapon the entire game would just be obscenely boring.

>>15278677

Wrong, shotguns have limited round 7+1. Compared to a rifle has 30 rounds. If shotguns are so good how come soldiers are armed with rifles instead? Reloading shotguns take much longer too. Also depends if you use buck or slug rounds.

>>15278691

yeah, then it would just make shotguns useless like in every game that works like that.

>>15278677

Shotgun is a surprise weapon. That's its purpose, kick open a door and there's a guy standing there. Surprise motherfucker.

>>15278708

it also encourages you to get close to enemies in a game where most enemies have a highly lethal melee attack. Almost like it was designed to feel differently from everything else…

>>15278674

>its almost like the weapon is designed to fill an archetype because that works a lot better for a game designed around corridors and works better for games in general

It really doesn't there were vastly superior shotguns released in games around that time and afterward. Like the shotgun in Half-Life 2 was really great in terms of power and range. As was the shotgun in F.E.A.R.

The shotgun in Quake 4 was also vastly superior to the one in Doom 3 and later got upgraded with a magazine which made it even more useful. The shotgun in Doom 3 just felt very awkward to use and very slow but it was still the most practical weapon to use for the majority of the game because you never had to fight enemies at long range. It's telling that there was a slew of mods released for Doom 3 that made the shotgun feel much better to use.

>>15278677

>Realistic shotguns would make the majority of weapons irrelevant

Other games tend to balance shotguns by making the levels revolve around having enemies at longer ranges or by having more diverse encounters. And designing the enemies so some are better to kill with specific guns. In Duke Nukem 3D while you use the shotgun a lot it's not a practical gun in most situations. Especially since the pig cops need a minimum of two shots to take down. The ripper is far more useful against crowds of weaker enemies, the pipe bombs are devastating against groups, the rocket launcher is great against bigger enemies etc. Duke 3D is actually a really great game to study for how to effectively balance weapons as all the guns in that game feel great to use and you end up using all of them. Even the pistol gets a ton of use as a utility weapon to hit switches.

In Doom 3 there's very little elegance to how the enemies are designed and how the levels are laid out. The game mostly just spams repetitive enemies like imps at you which aren't challenging to fight and get really annoying as the game goes on. The commando enemies >>15273865 posted are better but it doesn't help that they're mostly bullet sponges and barely react to being shot at.

>>15278677

>Realistic shotguns would make the majority of weapons irrelevant

Yes, this is why every major war in the last 100 years was fought exclusively with shotguns, because they are the most powerful and effective choice for combat. Oh wait, that's not true at all. Whoops! I guess even real shotguns suck for combat beyond 50 meters. This is why making them realistic in games isn't an issue at all, because if the whole roster is realistic then everything falls into place just as it does in the real world. If you design 100% of combat encounters in your game to take place at a distance of 20 meters or less, that's pretty shitty.

>>15278726

>the shotgun in Half-Life 2 was really great in terms of power and range. As was the shotgun in F.E.A.R.

literally serve the same purpose as the one in doom 3 but the one in fear works worse because the enemies have a really ineffective melee.

>>15278744

The shotguns in both games feel far better to use

Something else that made no sense in Doom 3 that feels like a contradiction is the player reloads the gun two shells at a time. Something I've never seen any other game do. It was clearly done this way in testing to make the game easier and for the player to use the shotgun more. Rather than just beefing up some of the useless guns like the pistol. (Which is somehow more useless than the pistol in Doom 1/2)

>>15278749

>The shotguns in both games feel far better to use

Ok, keep missing the point though

>>15278728

>falling back on muh realism again

>>15278769

The Witcher

Hitman (at least til Blood Money)

Portal

>>15278769

Well I can spit ball a few, maybe they're not all still good but they do at least have some solid sequels

>Tony Hawk series

>Turok

>Prince of Persia

>Legacy of Kain

>Spider-Man games had a good run for a while

>Plenty of solid Star Wars games

>Postal 2

>Odd World

>>15278783

>>Legacy of Kain

>The best one was Blood Omen

>Soul Reaver was good but incomplete

>All the sequels were inferior

>>15278728

>Yes, this is why every major war in the last 100 years was fou

You cocksucking faggot we are talking about a video game here and gameplay, NOT. REAL. LIFE. Fuck off to /k/ already, holy shit.

>If you design 100% of combat encounters in your game to take place at a distance of 20 meters or less, that's pretty shitty.

So all classic FPS like DOOM, Duke and the rest are shit then? No, go RP sucking nigger dicks in ARMA 3 some more, nobody gives a fuck. I'm sure you're going to spout muh realism muh realism some more since it's the only goddamn thing your brain is capable of shitting out.

>>15278769

Slaves to Armok.

>Daikatana

<hurr durr the weapons are gimmicky for the sake of being gimmicky

<you know how you're in future cyberpunk Japan? What are you going to fight, cyber ninjas and fun enemies like that? Nah, cyber frogs, crocodiles and dragonflies, all with annoying sounds tied to them because fuck you and security guards who, unlike you, have regular pistols that actually work like a fucking normal weapon and not the Ion Blaster which is a solid piece of garbage (like every other weapon really), you know a game is fucking quality when you're GLAD you get your hand on a basic fucking Glock.

<you know you play as a man who teaches how to handle swords as a living? Well forget that, no sword for you until you actually get the Daikatana.

<I CAN'T LEAVE WITHOUT MY BUDDY SUPERFLY, seriously fuck the companions

Daikatana a shit, played Doom 3

>>15278773

>>15278850

>Shotguns should be shitty in games so that muh salt raifus aren't made less desirable

Or you could make them as good as they actually are for close rande combat and have fun using them.

>>15275825

>It was a much better game than say Half Life 2 which came out around the same time.

Nah. HL2 might be overrated, but still better.

>>15264918

Rage without a doubt