/v/ - Video Games

I'd start with addressing misconceptions people have about a genre for why it's bullshit/too hard/whatever, which you can usually solve through more comprehensive tutorials/difficulty settings or making your intents as designer more obvious to the player through mechanics by encouraging them to play a certain way.

A lot of the uninitiated feel arcade-styled games are inherently bullshit because when you lose all lives you have to start the game over, so a good compromise would be a checkpoint mode where dying just sends you back to a previous checkpoint, but you get less or no extra lives at all to compensate for the decrease in difficulty.

>>15238454

>To what extent should games try to bring in the uninitiated into a genre?

None. None whatsoever.

The game should do justice to the genre.

People who want to play said genre will seek it out, people who don't won't.

Dumbing down and diluting your genre game to try to make more sales to people who don't play that genre is a kike tactic killing games.

Fucking none. If your game is so shit that people don't want to play it, you can't fix it by making it even more shit.

The problem with not allowing any appeal to the uninitiated is eventually, people will stop playing your game/genre for one reason or another (death if nothing else) so if no new players have come into that genre in decades, it'll slowly die off. Appealing to new players isn't just kikery, it's the best way to make sure you'll still have an audience for your games down the line. That being said, there are definitely good ways to do this and bad ways, and unfortunately most developers are too naive to avoid the bad ways. As a result, many games are designed to appeal to children or reward the player with Skinner Box-esque goodies, such as loot boxes. A better way would be to make games that gradually ramp up in challenge at the pace the player is improving, but this takes much more time which is why it's rarer.

>>15238454

>the higher-level and more dedicated players

You mean the guys that actually ruin the whole thing?

The pros that stomp on newbs and make them leave the game because a lose streak of 10 games against professionals isn't fun?

Or if they happen to be in your team, they make you feel useless since they accomplish everything alone and you have no impact into the game?

Or perhaps you mean the guys that feel entitled to dictate how the game should be developed in the future, how it should evolve, all because they think the many hours they clocked in for no one's benefit but their own amusement grants them some kind of right over the dev team and the rest of the playerbase?

Sure, they may know what they are talking about, having played the game more time than the dev team even, but they'll still cater the whole experience to their subjective taste and whatever meta they are more confortable with. The game will always remain stagnant in their hands, it's just the right kind of stagnant.

Fuck outta here with this "you need 600 hours until you're half decent at a game to start enjoying it". I pay money to be amused by a videogame and that's the final price, the extra time required of me is pushing it, especially when we compare multiplayer games to singleplayer ones. You can't learn at your own pace in multiplayer, the oposing team decides how good you have to be at a particular moment, you can't lower or increase the difficulty and you will not have fun before you know all that you must know.

Stupid example here, but think of Super Mario 64 and any after that. Plenty of neat jump maneuvers to go around the world and avoid obstacles but you can pretty much clear the whole game just jumping and spinning. It's only when you go for the advanced stars, that you will go when you feel like it, not when someone else feels like you should, do you actually need to learn those other moves, and even them you can take your time and focus on nothing but learning that.

Now compare it with your average TF2 match, where someone will join in as Soldier just to shoot rockets at people and he sees everyone leaving him behind, other Soldiers just flying around like it's nothing. It's gonna be one miserable match where he's always late for everything, will be flanked often and if he feels like practicing rocketjumping, best hope there isn't a Spy\Heavy\Scout\Soldier nearby or it's respawn time with you. Or he's just kicked for being idle in his base, I guess.

You want a game that caters to "high level players" then that's the only people you'll have playing the game after the meta settles down because by then, they'll already have gone through a learning process without much higher level players stomping them in the process. Everyone else will quit joining once the mountain gets too high to climb because they sure as shit aren't even gonna try when everyone at the top will be shitting on them until they learn.

>but muh hardcore games

>but muh skill based gameplay

Shame new players all you want. The truth is, there's no one that is seduced by that rational besides try-hards (have fun with them) and there's no reason to play the same game for 3000 hours when there's so many other videogames out there that you could be playing instead. You're choosing to eat rice for the rest of your life and bragging about it.

Funny thing is, even companies know this very well, which is why they prefer the idea of "low skill level for constant new players" instead. It sells a lot more.

Also, let me just say this: FUCK THE META

All it does is make a game more convuluted and unintuitive than it ever needed to be.

Want to play the fastest class in TF2? Then why the fuck did you pick the Scout, with the highest base move speed and advertized as the "fast but weak class"? Obviously you'll pick the Soldier, the class with the second lowest base speed in the game but outclasses the Scout with Rocket Jumping!

Did you want to play Engy? Why? Staying somewhere stationary is stupid, you're slow, get kicked.

Loads of Soldiers rocketjumping around at low health going after your medic as well as squishy Scouts? Why are you picking the Heavy? He's too fucking slow! Just aim your rockets better!

Oh Spy? Yeah, that's what we call a slower Scout. Or close range Sniper. So don't bring him.

You go check what the meta for that game is and it's an incredibly ridiculous mindset of burst damage and speed, the medic being present simply because it needs to be there, not because anyone genuinely likes playing him.

You check Smash Melee and a lot of the meta is around wave dashing and what characters use it best.

Not what their B abilities really are, not how they can use items better (because fuck items despite how well they interact with a lot of characters) it's all about broken movement mechanics.

I know I'm gonna get a ton of shit for this, but fuck you, you know I'm right: this is why Overwatch is superior and more popular than TF2 and sadly, why Fortnite is even more popular than Overwatch.

You play as Pharah and what do you get? A character that can take off to the skies for a vantage point to shoot down rockets and perform area denial, something that her secondary ability helps as well.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT SHE DOES, SURPRISE!

There's no "Pick Pharah because she's actually faster than Tracer and Genji" or "pick Pharah because she has massive burst damage and survivability" or anything silly like that. She has a role to perform, you can do better or worse at it depending on positioning, even get a bit creative, but she never goes out of her role too much.

Fornite, same shit but a lot more stupid. You see a dude, he's gonna shoot you. You see resources, you mine them to build temporary barriers you can use in a firefight. That's fucking it.

It's simple, you understand it within 5 minutes of starting, and if you lose it's not because of unsurmountable odds against you due to the other player's skill, it's because he had a better gun or saw you first or had a better defense, all things you can do yourself the very next match.

>>15238454

there's an obscure video with a shit theory that probably fits this question

there are innovators, casualizers, and copycats.

innovators are experimental and are niche as fuck

casualizers take the innovations and make them digestible for most people

then there's copycats who just take popular shit, make shit copies and ruin it for everyone

>>15238454

Corporate data gathering thread.

>>15238553

This. Sales be damned. What matters is games to keep being good and fun. If something like sales prevents that, games should stop being made. We already have plenty of good games made in the past.

Alpha Centauri is a Civilization game for people who dislike Civ games. Instead of Earth, you explore an alien planet. Instead of researching historic technologies, you start with competent units and more sustainable cities. Instead of reading up on historical leaders, you have a group of factions separated clearly by ideology, which match their AI. Instead of a vague progression through millennia, there's a more detailed story which you play through.

Yet, with all these identity shifts, AC improves on the classic Civ gameplay, with customizable units, more (and more unique) victories, and terraforming. It both accepts the uninitiated, by using new themes and more clear design, and makes a deeper version of Civilization which hasn't been replicated since.

It is possible to make a game for a wider audience without pissing off the old fans, it just requires effort, something most devs aren't willing to use.

>>15238562

Right because paying absolutely zero attention to wether or not people will understand your game is a great idea. Theres no objective way to make a game good. You just take an idea then try to put together something that really brings out the best in that idea. If it's an established genre then I'd agree with your sentiment more, but its flawed.

>melee

Genuinely a great example. The Samurai is well know for his design philosophy of including content for both beginners and experts. Kirby is really easy to understand and allows for floating etc. but also has collectibles and puzzles that require you to be somewhat familiar with platformers. Melee is simple conceptually, but has some incredible depth. Enough depth to hold a community for 17 years, largely with no sponsor support, all while still being a shitload of fun for casuals.

>>15242438

Is this bait or copypasta? If you don't like meta, don't play comp. I don't and I'm having fun. And I don't know about you, but people do actually enjoy medicking around.

I hate assfagots and mobas because they feel like quantity over quality. Instead of few really well designed classes with multiple ways to play each of them, you get shitton of characters who each do only 1 thing. It's like playing tower defense, except you only play as one of the towers. Since you rely on your character's abilities rather than game mechanics and engine quirks, you're much more limited in your movement and strategies.

And your Pharah argument is exactly what's wrong with Overwatch. You do one thing only, and if you die, it's often not because you got outplayed, but because someone picked a character who countered you. Which can either give you an excuse or make you ragequit the game.

>>15242600

I don't get how Sakurai keeps saying that Melee was "too difficult"

Vanilla Melee is casual as fuck just like every other Smash game. There's nothing difficult about it.

>>15238454

I think Battletoads had the right idea. Make the first 2 levels painfully easy and then fuck the player over with the rest of the game.

>>15238454

Here's an idea instead of listening to people in the marketing department you should create a game that deliberately pisses off normalfags. You should make a modern game with an over complicated HUD and battle system that will piss people off so much that they will not want to play it.

>>15238454

>To what extent should games try to bring in the uninitiated into a genre?

i would say interface things, such as control schemes and GUI elements.

anything that makes the game more intuitive that doesnt affect the actual game itself.

>>15242438

TF2's meta only really exists in a 6v6 setting with maps specifically designed around whatever setup is popular at the time. Incidentally CTF is borderline unplayable with 6v6 which is why everyone memes it as "The Worst Game Mode".

Also another thing 6v6 breaks.

The sandman.

Shit got nerfed into the ground because of soldiers crying they can't whip around in the air and splash2win because a scout managed to figure out what direction they were going to whip around into.

>>15242682

>If you don't like meta, don't play comp.

That's all fun and everything until Devs start balancing the game around the meta instead and everyone that couldn't care less about it must suffer the changes as well.

>people do actually enjoy medicking around

Hey, I'm a Medic main (whenever I'm not Engy) and it's a fun role. Doesn't change the fact that a lot of professional teams admit nobody in their team really likes Medic since it's a lot more passive but they must bring it because of how important a role he is.

>your Pharah argument is exactly what's wrong with Overwatch

No it isn't, it's exactly what makes it different from previous games and the one thing that older players can't stick in their heads. If you want to do a different role that Pharah isn't as good at, change character. This isn't Assfaggots, you do not need to stick to a single character a whole match. And if you really must play a specific character that is currently being countered by an enemy, what you do is rely on your team to counter the counter.

Pharah's counter is the Widow (mostly), so if she's giving you problems and preventing you from flying around, you need a team mate to pick something that can handle her instead.

That's the thing about Overwatch in how it differs from other games: if your enemy has a direct counter to you, you don't just change how you play to counter him in an individualist way, you rely on teamwork instead.

>>15244926

There's actually more meta than the 6's, namely the role of every class.

I keep saying in every thread that the Soldier was supposed to be a generalist but he is too good at every role to properly fit that role, every other class feels like a sidegrade just like how weapons work: you become worse in several ways to excel in a specific circunstace, the stock (Soldier) still being the best option.

Because of what he currently does for the game, you'll never have the change he truly needs to stop overshadowing other classes: double the splash range for his rockets and half the damage.

Same thing for the Demo too.

That'd put both those classes into area denial without robbing the burst damage that the Scout, Spy, Sniper and even Heavy bring to the table. They'd be usefull against large concentrations of players but not that good for 1v1, and as a bonus, they'd still retain their mobility.

But of course, because the meta surrounding those 2 classes revolves around their burst damage, you'll never have that change. Just like when Demos had their sticky damage nerfed and they kept complaining about "not being able to break sentrys", to which Valve reverted the change, despite there being a mechanic specifically for sentry damage that the Soldier's rockets already use.

>>15238454

>You can make the game accessible which may net the developer more sales and a larger player base, but you can hurt the longevity of the game by alienating the higher-level and more dedicated players.

Another factor that plays into making this is how desperate the dev team (or the publisher pressing them) to keep a series alive when sales of each game is declining and needing a new audience to keep it alive.

Which then results in a situations like Fire Emblem Awakening, gaining lots of new fans to keep the series going by making the it less intimating to get into (having the option to turn permadeath off) and also romantic options but pissing off the old fans who want a FE that plays like the older games (which the new fans don't seem to want to play). The problem is that the changes they added don't really help make the new fans go through the "challenge" that the older fans had to go through. Especially when they added even more causal features like Phoenix mode to its sequel Fates (character revives on the next turn after being killed) which was thankfully removed for the remake of FE: Shadows of Valentia which had the Mila's Turnwheel option (undo three turns in battle which can prevent mistakes that lead to a unit falling in battle) which certainly sounds like a better method to bridge the knowledge gap for newcomer and series veteran, where if the former were to make a mistake in a level instead of having to restart the level completely when a unit falls like in previous games they just go back a few turns.

Metroid Prime 3 came out on the Wii and with that in mind really did tried to strike a balance between the new users and existing veterans. Later in the game it's possible to get map update data from multiple (optional) satellite launches (for different planets seen in game) that can show you the locations of every item (like Missile Expansions, Fuel Cells) making it the easiest Metroid game to get 100% item completion on. With it being optional a more experienced Metroid fan can still enjoy the 100% item hunt without that extra map data, the issue is that players doesn't know that launching the satellites will give them this item location data for X planets until after launching them which might anger a hardcore player not wanting to be spoiled by hidden item locations and cue a reset back to their previous save.

>>15244810

Rumor has it that Sakurai lost a match in Melee to a NoA employee, and the man's had a vendetta since.

>>15242469

>if something like sales prevents that, games should stop being made

Then games shouldn't be made since 10 years

>>15242415

>dictate how the game should be developed in the future

When was the last time that happened , the ones that cry the loudest are the ones that get what they want , which are noobs who came to a game with buddies and will drop in next week but cry for changes they won't even stick around to see

Of course they will get shit on ,they are supposed to Git Gud not get the game mechanics and balance changed,You are approaching this as if it's their first time using a pc

Being good in games isn't just game specific things ,90% of "skill" is:patience,willing to learn,good use of communications,flanking,thinking 2 steps forward,guess what your enemy will do(what would you do),The last 10% is game specific stuff

The bad players are and stay bad because they don't want to get better ,they almost never listen to advice ,they never train,read a guide or watch a youtube video ,Skill isn't some white supremacy magic you get born with

>>15238454

>To what extent should games try to bring in the uninitiated into a genre?

if it's a singleplayer game and there's lore, have a brief tutorial explaining it or an optional codex entry or whatever. if it's not, then none whatsoever. sink or swim

>>15245157

>You can make the game accessible which may net the developer more sales and a larger player base, but you can hurt the longevity of the game by alienating the higher-level and more dedicated players.

This is why I believe that the only payment method to at least try to keep the game from getting casualized is subscription ,It remove the excuse of "We need to sale this to more people" ,My favourite game right now Squad is suffering this Enternal September

going on sale every few month , the % of people that know what to do dropped from 90 to 2 and the noobs don't get bullied enough to learn ,They came for Skype with extra activities and that's what they do

Some context for what I wrote here >>15246258 , Squad is "pure skill" , nothing to gain , nothing to loose , No skins , no exp , no loot ,the only thing to do is win,which makes it's very easy to spot when some one isn't even trying

No golden gun to make him better ,no 50 lvl locked magic shield ,no matchmaking ,2 to the chest 1 to the head ,On your first day you can kill people that played every night for 2 years

Which isn't always a good thing because those first day people think they are already the best and don't want to get better

Ideally, the older games would be simpler than the newer games, and game developers would "re-release" the older games, pre-configured to play similarly to the newer ones. But they aren't. Another thing that'd be cool is if they took the Mystic Quest approach, but didn't simplify the gameplay so much: take out the actual levels and release a game which is solely the gameplay. I know there was an RPG which did this, releasing a separate dungeon-crawling, arena-fighting standalone counterpart for their story-focused game.

>>15238502

False. Some people are too stupid. Women for example will always have to put in a lot of work to become good at a videogame if it required any skill.

>>15238454

Forget about genres. Its a entrapping limits. Most popular games became genres of tier own.

>>15242469

>whaaaaa stop aiming to have money, who cares about economy? I want free stuff and also good ones

Why torpedos always have shitty opinions?

"This game was developed by a multicultural team"

=

"We are not Christians"

>>15242415

>pros ruining the game

>entitled gamers

>having skill is shaming

Here's the worst nu/v/ has to offer. A brainwashed Polygon millennial who ended up on a natzee site because your peers bullied you too hard.

Wanna do something good? Figure out a way to push out people like him.

Why don't more games spend more time on level design and gameplay so that you can change things around for harder difficulties? Like only adding much harder enemies on higher difficulties, or changing certain levels or items found? It might have been more common in older games but it rarely happens on modern shit.

>>15245100

>OW

Teamwork, and just swapping out characters like rock-paper-scissors because player skill barely enters the equation. It's shit design.

>>15242454

How do you call the ones who take someone else's work and improve on it then?

>>15238454

Here a comprehensive answer for why the mythical "wider audience" doesn't fucking exist and anyone that thinks it does is a retard that understand gaming.

>>15247037

>>15238454

Lost the embed

>>15246383

>tfw reaction time is slightly higher than average but still able to plan ahead enough to win most of the time via prediction

>>15246383

>>15247057

Wait a second

>n = 16 for both

I mean the number of tests is good but that sample size is shit.

>>15246978

Who is that pure testosterone neanderthal you posted?

>>15247074

Cleve, obviously, the filename says it right there

>>15244810

Yeah I dunno. I'm realatively confident he didmt say it in those words tho. Theres no doubt he wanted to get away from competitive gameplay, but I dont think it's because he thought it was too difficult. I think it's more likely that he saw what kind of community the game was cultivating and decided that it conflicted with whatever vision he had. I dont know what it was like in Japan, but the early melee community in NA was very abrasive. Its not unlikely that he saw some part of this and wanted to squash it. But it's all good. Melee is still alive and well, and ultimate seems like it's a step in the right direction. We'll see what comes next

>>15247082

Do you mean Cleveland Mark Blakemore, the man who singlehandedly worked on a role playing game with 0.0005 micro issues for over 20 years?

It's pretty sad that more people don't know who he is, he's like a lolcow except he's actually a pretty cool guy.

>>15247655

t. Brainlet

Obviously a game should not pander to casual audiences by toning down the difficulty, but there is no harm in giving new players a helping hand by starting them off with low-difficulty levels or whatnot. In the case of a multiplayer game, it should allow dedicated servers for obvious reasons. If a casual player seeks a casual game of "x" then they go to the "fun server" or some other kind of pub server. If a hardcore player seeks a challenging game of "x", they'll go to the ESEA server or something of that nature with other likeminded players. When you remove dedicated servers like with Overwatch (or slowly but surely fade out dedicated servers like every Valve game nowadays) you have casuals being matched up with hardcore players even though their goals are different by an order of magnitude.

>>15239085

This. Have an optional but comprehensive tutorial (or work it into the game) that doesn't compromise the current or potential challenge. The idiots will drop it and skip but those genuinely interested in picking it up will have adequate resources to get to git gud. One thing I think of is Jedi Outcast II. No tutorial, just dumps you right in. Several fundamental things are apparent, though: there's a couple stationary unaware enemies at the start of the level which are good for practicing headshots, you have a very temporary AI partner who won't die easily, and there's a very easy climbing puzzle to teach you elementary jumping. Furthermore, the second part of this first area has a pretty large firefight but the troopers are pretty innacurate which teaches you proper strafing- very important until you get a lightsaber.

>>15247071

As long as you're within-subject you should be fine; I agree though that they should have at least tried to double their sample size for both groups.

>>15247676

Fuck off /leftypol/

a broader audience - translation: shit tier console trash.

>>15238454

>game intended to be played by 4-9 year olds

Make it as accessible as you want. Anything over than that age group, I'd say be as elitist as you want to be.

>>15245100

>>15242415

>>15242438

>i suck at videogames reeeeee

>people should let me win reeeeee

Your "problem" could be solved better by simply enabling any games to have dedicated and/or custom private servers where pros and lowly scrubs like you are separated. Pushing people to dumb the game down for (You) will stagnate the entire scene of any games you're into.

Now hang yourself.

>>15250036

That's not what I said at all, you dumb fuck. Are you really this bad at making strawmans?

If I'm playing a game about several different classes pitching in their unique weapons and abilities, that's exactly the kind of game I want to play, I don't want for several of them to be nigh useless and about only 4 actually being relevant. And if the point of the game is how the different classes interact with each other, then let that be the proper point of the game, instead of turning it into a rocketjump festival. I would be playing Quake instead if that's what I wanted, but I ain't playing Quake am I?

If I'm playing a game with several different iconic characters that use different signature moves in their fighting style and with a huge representation from different games, that's exactly the kind of game I want to play. None of this tier-list wavedashing bullshit. I could be playing Street Fighter or any other fighter if I wanted "the footsies" but I ain't, because when I boot Smash, it's to throw bombs around as Link or do shenaningans with Snake or fight long range with Samus, etc.

A lot of this "muh depth" argument boils down to people wanting more content out of their game and playing it in a way that's either just what they are confortable with or an entirely different type of game which, why would you not play that instead to begin with?

>Your "problem" could be solved better by simply enabling any games to have dedicated and/or custom private servers where pros and lowly scrubs like you are separated.

Are you legit fucking retarded? When the fuck does that ever even happen and why would that even happen? What stops a pro from joining a random server full of newbies and stomp them? What stops a newbie from joining a pro server? You know very well all those "newbie friendly" and "pros only" tags are almost as retarded as you are.

Matchmaking is closer to giving the player actualy isolation between pros and newbies, are you making an argument in favor of matchmaking?

>Pushing people to dumb the game down for (You) will stagnate the entire scene of any games you're into.

Pretty ironic considering the state of the meta in TF2, where the community itself stagnated it into the 6's "dream team", or how for all the compliments Melee has, it's still 17 years of wavedashing Fox and nothing else.

Maybe play a different fucking game if you want something different out of the game you are currently playing?

>>15251157

OR AT THE VERY FUCKING LEAST DON'T BE FUCKING SURPRISED WHEN YOUR "MUH 600 HOURS TO GITGUD" SEES NO PLAYERS WHEN THERE'S MILLIONS OF ALTERNATIVES TO ENTERTAIN YOURSELF.

>>15251157

>If I'm playing a game about several different classes pitching in their unique weapons and abilities, that's exactly the kind of game I want to play, I don't want for several of them to be nigh useless and about only 4 actually being relevant.

But the reality is, not all equipment, strategies and tactics are equal. You can't have a crawler tank to hunt a cheetah just like you don't expect a speedy twink to hold a base. Also the fact that in many game metas there are classes with low skill ceiling with low payout and the complete opposite, classes with high skill floor and ceiling and high payout. Newbies are definitely interested in playing all the class and sticking with the former classes, but real pros will invest their time for the latter classes.

Also, arcade shooter games value agility and accuracy above all, why do you expect that any classes other than the most agile classes can have the most wins?

>What stops a pro from joining a random server full of newbies and stomp them?

>What stops a newbie from joining a pro server?

Server passwords and kicks.

There, now proceed to hang yourself.

>>15238454

TF2 was never good

>>15251983

We get it, you're a contrarian.

>>15251994

The game is shit in every aspect, Quake multiplayer outdoes it in every way. I'd rather play overcuck than play any version of TF2.

To what extent? Never. Fuck normalfags. Keep them as far from my vidya as possible.

>>15251157

>Matchmaking is closer to giving the player actual isolation between pros and newbies

Not really, smurf accounts exist and in matchmaking there's nothing that can be done about people you don't want to play with.

>>15252124

Agreed.

It is the duty of the uninitiated to conform to a group they wish to join, not the other way around, never the other way around.

I don't care if it's sports, vidya, tabletop, comics or afternoon tea with Mrs Prigglebottom, it is never the duty of the existing to change for a newcomer.

>>15246942

innovators ya fkn FAGGOT

>>15246442

That's hilarious. Too bad the alternatives to this cesspit are slow.

>>15251612

>You can't have a crawler tank to hunt a cheetah

And therefore the game shouldn't be mostly about running around all the time or the tank has no purpose.

>you don't expect a speedy twink to hold a base

No, I expect him to have a purpose he can accomplish, instead of some other faggot that's theoretically slower but actually faster to do instead as well as hold a base.

>there are classes with low skill ceiling with low payout and the complete opposite, classes with high skill floor and ceiling and high payout.

The hallmark of a shit game design then.

For low-level play, the tougher classes have no business being present to begin with, both to play with or against.

For higher level, the low skill classes are just fodder and chaff, serving no real purpose since they are covered by the high skilled ones.

In reality, the design of each class should carve a decent niche where they have a situational use that they excell at and nobody else performs as well, with the game demanding different classes as the situation changes.

This means that every class should be high-skill but not suited for every situation and certainly not be a generalist at all. High skill with a class should make you better at their specific role, not enable you to perform entirely different roles the class wasn't designed around for to begin with.

>Newbies are definitely interested in playing all the class and sticking with the former classes

Why would this even be true? Why would they play the classes that get shitted on by everyone else? Why would they want to lose all the time?

>arcade shooter games value agility and accuracy above all, why do you expect that any classes other than the most agile classes can have the most wins?

Because the game isn't, in theory, strictly about shooting things while dodging incoming fire. There's a whole battlefield to dominate in several different ways and the fun of class-based shooters comes from combining unorthodox strategies to win. If you boil it down again to projectile spam and fast speed, you're back at Quake at which point I gotta ask WHY THE FUCK AREN'T YOU PLAYING QUAKE INSTEAD?

>Server passwords

Server passwords exist so only friends\menbers of a community have access to a server, it has nothing to do with their skill level. It prevents both pros and newbies from joining, what is this brain damage you suffer from?

>Kicks

You mean the thing nobody ever does because they don't care unless it's someone else cheating? When's the last time you saw a bunch of newbies vote kick some pro out of their server, or even the reverse?

>>15252016

At least this faggot has the right idea. If you like the general gameplay of Quake, stick to it instead of playing TF2 like it was Quake.

But if you like the class-based gameplay, you're better off with a cast of 20+ classes that are all viable and unique.

>>15252147

Smurf accounts at least require extra effort placed on them whereas joining a server you are not suited to play in at all is as simple as "Join Server".

> in matchmaking there's nothing that can be done about people you don't want to play with.

But compared to default servers, the likelihood that this becomes a problem is far lower.

I ain't saying matchmaking is a perfect solution, but it's an improvement at least. I'll take matchmaking anyway over the clusterfuck that default servers tend to be.

Every single match in TF2 always saw the scoreboard with about 3 guys at the top that actually knew what they were doing having about 30-50 times the score of the bottom player. It's such a massive difference there isn't even a point for the lower players to be there except as ego fodder for the other team's 3 players.

>>15252275

It's only the duty if they wish to join and it's not their duty to actually join. No group should ever change to accomodate the newcomers but if the group itself isn't atracting anyone, that's the group's problem.

A game that can thrive with community ran servers and mods is a sign of success to me. These esports titles are not gonna last like games made back in the day. You REALLY need a casual audience. Take R6S and OW for example. What are they known for? esports, ranked mode, and toxicity. People taking games too seriously kill all sense of a good community.

>>15253539

But of course. No group should ever change to suit the tastes of outsiders that simply don't fit in it to begin with.

Your cheap accusation isn't lost on me however, it's one thing to change because an outsider group demands a more confortable experience that suits them, it's another altogether to change because there's something genuinely bad in the design of the game itself.

Clinging to how things are simply because that's how you're used to and how it suits you is just commodism, it doesn't automatically validate what you have now as being good.

>>15253659

If we are talking Valve in particular, it's pretty obvious at this point that they don't play the game themselves and their main concern is to keep their dwindling playerbase from dwindling even further.

This is why the Jag was changed according to what Uncle Dane once requested in one of their videos, because they honestly had no idea themselves what to do with it, and why several Demoman nerfs are reverted or why several classes suffer so many changes while others stay static.

Seeing what you're implying, I'd agree but on the premise that it's actually the fault of the community since they are the ones that force the hand of Valve to keep what they have now.

>>15253784

Well when you think about it Valve, really doesn't have much to actually do to stop pissing people off, and keep people on. And let me tell you, it's NOT listening to the so called "Team Fortress 2 Pros", because let's face it, it might have brought in a ton of money but "Contracts" are just an AWFUL way of trying to force the community to play in the way that has been dictated to you by said "pros".

Second, we need to talk about something, this whole. Nerf a weapon into the ground whenever a popular youtuber (or several) complains about it. A lot of them probably realize that yes, they are in fact the "biggest voice" in the "community" and they can sick their collective fanbase anywhere they want, and let's face it they ABSOLUTELY meet behind the scenes to discuss how they're going to try and force the community to go, and honestly, as much as they cite it, reddit is an ABYSMAL place to go to try and "Gauge community opinion" since the place essentially gamifies being a bootlicking crony.

Something the game really needs, is a new crafting update, I know, I know Valve can't make much money off letting players earn what they want and Geel is probably sitting on his throne of shekels screaming about how keys should be worth 500 Refined even though that'd take literally EIGHT YEARS of constant play to generate and how a thousand dead accounts from idle bots mean it's totally justified, but, we straight up need a new crafting update that will encourage players to play the game and not be predatory for access to the new content.

>>15253853

Also as much as it'll make the CONTENT CREATORS XDDDD blood boil, we need to make casual it's own thing with Valve hosted pubs, I know, your shitty fanbase can find you follow you into the game that's just the breaks. The ONLY reason that Casual exists is because they want to try and lean people into playing competitive despite being so unappealing to the vast majority of players.

>>15238454

a game can appeal to new players and experienced players and still retain it's depth, it can even cater to different technical ability levels, what it can't do is appeal to scrubs and retain it.

>>15246627

Because you worship money.

>>15246627

Are you implying that good games don't sell well? Are you genuinely this retarded?